So, if you can't play as a girl in this game, does that mean there's no Link in it?
Nice link.
So, if you can't play as a girl in this game, does that mean there's no Link in it?
I'm curious as to why this has become such a big deal for fans of the franchise lately. Why does it matter if Link is a boy or a girl?
If they want to make Link a girl, cool. I wouldn't have a problem with it. But what's with the constant prodding about it? Let them make the games they want to make.
Simple, Nintendo refuses to conform to the wishes of the popular view here on NeoGAF. It has nothing to do with gender equality. Gender equality is just the weapon used in this specific case. You could easily swap out the topic of gender equality with technical power and this thread would read in a similar fashion.
Conform Nintendo, conform. You are not allowed to be an individual Nintendo, conform.
Simple, Nintendo refuses to conform to the wishes of the popular view here on NeoGAF. It has nothing to do with gender equality. Gender equality is just the weapon used in this specific case. You could easily swap out the topic of gender equality with technical power and this thread would read in a similar fashion.
Conform Nintendo, conform. You are not allowed to be an individual Nintendo, conform.
Yes, nothing says "conform" like...adding options and choice. You may want to come up with a new buzzword to obfuscate your preference for excluding people who aren't like you.
I suggest not taking the "Link is an established character" route, since Link A) Has almost no character or personality to speak of beyond an outfit, and B) Doesn't even have to be named Link if the player decides otherwise. Do people who name him something other than "Link" deserve this same rage over the betrayal of an "established character"?
Such handwringing over such a minor change that would make a lot of players happy and would never need to be looked at or utilized by anyone who doesn't want the option. Providing a gender option for the player character in a Zelda game would change absolutely nothing. You arguably wouldn't even need to change the sprite in most of the 2D games.
All the "OMG LINK BE MALE" people: Think about what you're raging at here. You'd literally have to pick "Male" as the character's gender when you start a new game. That's it. You probably wouldn't even have to move the cursor, because "Male" is almost always the default selection on those screens in games. And then you'd never have to think about it again. Do you see how you kind of come off not as defending this character you supposedly love, but as tremendously interested in making sure you have the experience you want and other people don't have the experience they want? Do you see how this kind of makes you look like a jerk? It's not a hill worth dying on.
The biggest thing I've taken away from this thread is that Link has somehow become one of the greatest well defined characters in fiction with a personality and motivations that millions could describe.
A lot of fans welcome the way they changed Link over the years giving him personality. We do not want to play with something that feel as a generic avatar, where NPCs don't give a shit to your appearance, gender, race, etc. A lot of people(myself included) likes Link iconic image, and no, for some of us the appearance is even more important than the outfit. If you don't have the ability to play with a character that doesn't look like you there's a lot of games already with the generic character experience.
The biggest problem in the interview is that you don't play as Link in multiplayer so they could make something to represent you.
Also I never saw the rage from the mainstream community and Zelda fan sites when talking about Zelda to be chosen as the protagonist.
What does it have to do with people liking him? Personality and motivations aren't necessary for people to create bound with a character. You see that Mario is one of the most beloved characters and he's more plain than Link, doesn't you?
But isn't each Link a different person? Link in Twilight Princess is not Link from Wind Waker, and neither of them are Link from Skyward Sword.
So...what's the problem with having a female Link again? A different Link than the ones already featured in the other games.
Mario has alts at least like Green Mario, Peach, Daisy (I can dream!), Rosalina and Toad. Though, I wish those other characters were used more often with Mario.
The general populace doesn't care about that. Hell I still see people on GAF (y'know, where the informed go) who still say Zelda games are all just one story being retold over and over. For them there is one Link who looks a bit different based on the game but overall he's a pointy eared bloke in a green tunic. That's Link the brand. So storywise there's not really a problem, but marketing wise it's a whole different ball game.But isn't each Link a different person? Link in Twilight Princess is not Link from Wind Waker, and neither of them are Link from Skyward Sword.
So...what's the problem with having a female Link again? A different Link than the ones already featured in the other games.
The general populace doesn't care about that. Hell I still see people on GAF (y'know, where the informed go) who still say Zelda games are all just one story being retold over and over. For them there is one Link who looks a bit different based on the game but overall he's a pointy eared bloke in a green tunic. That's Link the brand. So storywise there's not really a problem, but marketing wise it's a whole different ball game.
Commander Shephard was customisable from the beginning. Link has retained his basically static image for 29 years now. Bit of a big difference there. And on the flip side, what is the compelling reason for the change?Why? Commander Shepard is pretty much completely customizable, yet has a very recognizable main character. What prevents Nintendo from doing the same thing? I'm not arguing that Nintendo should make a female Link. I'm just saying that no one in this thread has given me a compelling reason why they shouldn't.
People are arguing that Link is now an established character because his personality was fleshed out in the latest Zelda (I have only played the games up to Wind Waker, so I can't speak to how fleshed out he really is). But why does it matter that his character was fleshed out? The canon of the Zelda storyline is that nearly every Link featured in a Zelda game is a different character. Sometimes different Links aren't even from the same universe/timeline. So you can't argue that because Link is fleshed out as a character, he can not be a she, because by the same argument (precious canon/lore), it literally does not matter.
Commander Shephard was customisable from the beginning. Link has retained his basically static image for 29 years now. Bit of a big difference there. And on the flip side, what is the compelling reason for the change?
I'm moving away from what they say in the games, so lore and personality has no bearing, and purely looking at image, which, with Nintendo's increasing move into licensing out, is rather important. With the image of Link detached from any game people need to recognise who it is. Reality is, his gender is one of the static characteristic that people know so it's more likely to stick.
Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games?
Why not ask for an entirely new character instead?
Maybe Link's sister?
Or well maybe just maybe use one of the various well designed existing female characters of Legend Of Zelda. a new Legend of Zelda featuring Impa?
Funny that noone seems to have a problem with other characters having a fixed gender. Male Impa, why not?because Impa is a female
Link is simply not an RPG template a la the default character in Dark Souls. Link is not some default customization option.
I mean let's imagine Nintendo added a gender switch 2 years ago. Wouldn't people start complaining, that it's just a simple basically pointless gender switch and not a proper female Link? Because that would actually be the case here. It would be Mr. female Link. It would be a typical AAA checklist feature. "Abilitity to switch genders, check". But it would be just that. A check on a checklist.
I think the goal of asking questions like this is just to get creators to think on a go-forward basis about this stuff.
If they do some soul-searching and come out the other side thinking "no, we wanted the character to be male," then that's fine. But in this process they might also be able to articulate their vision better than just offering a canned response. Or maybe -- and I think it's worth noticing that this has been happening a lot as of late and as such it continues to surprise me that people think that these questions are unnecessary and accomplishing nothing -- they come out the other side thinking "you know what, this is an easy change to make that will yield some good will for our next game. Yeah, we can add more diverse options for our player characters."
Having son + daughter of Link fight in Hyrule? Fine by me.
Change the existing male Link just because? That's weird to me. It's like asking to add a gender selection to a Samus Aran game. Or gender select Mario. Or gender select Simon Belmont.
Is a gender switch even enough in any case?
Shouldn't that be 2 switches? One for "sex" and one for "gender"? I'm actually serious here. Is that even a feature in any game? I have never seen anything like that. Because that would actually be interesting (and also somewhat trivial to implement) and would also support a real tiny minority of people, which I think would be a great thing to do.
And what about skin color. Hair color. Eye color. Grunts-type. Blonde hair is not as common as brown hair, so wouldn't people with brown hair prefer a brown haired Link? What about people having red hair? That's rare and there are not many characters with that hair color in games. And then you basically got your typical character creator a la Dark Souls or Saints Row. Which is great for those type of games, but Legend of Zelda is not like those games. It could be of course, but if you want effectively that, then why not actually ask for a full character creation a la Saints Row, because at least that would be walking the full mile.
So, because the game is set with that as the story background,
Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games? To allow people to play as characters they can more easily identify with? Have you been paying attention at all?
And so what if Commander Shepard was customizable from the beginning? If Nintendo kept all the marketing, all the iconic Link designs, and simply added the ability to swap the gender or race of your character in the game, what changes? Will fans of the traditional Link suddenly not want Default Link Amiibos? Will the ability to change the gender or race of Link diminish your own personal like of the character?
EDIT: And again, let me emphasize that I'm not arguing that Nintendo SHOULD make these changes. I'm arguing that the people fighting against change don't really have a leg to stand on.
This the worst justification for something I have seen in years.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is an issue in Japan as these things aren't taken to heart there the way they have been here lately.
Link was made a male before any implication of there being multiple Links. You can argue that Nintendo has the ability to make a female Link because of the way the lore is set up, but it seems rather clear to me that they created Link as a male character and always intended for him to be a male. I've said this before, but if a female Link were to be created, it should be because that's what Nintendo wants for its character rather than because of pressure from other people.
Maybe they should just introduce Mii Links? Everyone like he/she wishes.
Forgive my ignorance here, but I missed the part where this interview was conducted by NeoGAF. This sentiment would be more on-point if it was all motivated by us here at Social Justice HQ. But it was an interview conducted by IGN. I think it's important to note that this sentiment isn't just guided by a bunch of whiny, know-nothing internet denizens that are always going to complain about the latest flavor of the month but is actually a part of a larger conversation happening industry-wide at the moment.
Zelda should have never left the NES, then.Itll be cool to have a spinoff zelda game where you play as a female character in the zelda world, but the actual character in the main story...?
Its like trying to change Mario into a female character or changing a brand of a logo.
It would make sense if the game started as being customized in the beginning of the franchise, but it didn't and it really shouldn't change.
I'm all in for the spin off ideas because I love new perspectives in games and world building.
Zelda should have never left the NES, then.
A spinoff game is going to have a...quite not the real deal stigma attached to it, one that you buy into as well seeing as how you wouldn't want this for a main story game.
I think you'll find very few people arguing for changing the main character of Mario to someone else. The reason this is common in the Zelda franchise is because Link is a new Link every game. Different characters with different personalities, motivation, whatnot. (supposedly)
It'd make plenty of sense to do for Zelda. They've already made the Mario games a lot more inclusive with selecting your character and such. So it's actually ahead of Zelda by a bit.
I see that as an acceptable answer. At the very least, it's far better than what was offered in the interview. As to the second question, I think it kind of undermines its validity if we're just trying to formulate a generic catch-all that's going to work in every situation. I'm not saying that it would never be a valid response, but it loses any touch of sincerity if it just gets tossed out for every challenge.
Again, I really feel like so much of the time we end up with these threads that are needlessly contentious. I don't feel like creative integrity is under a great attack here. An interviewer asked a question, expressed disappointment in the answer, and Nirolak thought it would make for an interesting thread. This isn't day 100 of feminist radicals sitting in at Nintendo HQ with demands that must be met. I think the goal of asking questions like this is just to get creators to think on a go-forward basis about this stuff.
If they do some soul-searching and come out the other side thinking "no, we wanted the character to be male," then that's fine. But in this process they might also be able to articulate their vision better than just offering a canned response. Or maybe -- and I think it's worth noticing that this has been happening a lot as of late and as such it continues to surprise me that people think that these questions are unnecessary and accomplishing nothing -- they come out the other side thinking "you know what, this is an easy change to make that will yield some good will for our next game. Yeah, we can add more diverse options for our player characters."
That's not even close to what I'm saying, but I appreciate the sarcasm.Nintendo should just re-release the Wii U again in 2016 with no upgrades at all and still using the gamepad because that's what Nintendo wants. I know they're getting pressure to not do that, but we should trust Nintendo's vision.
This is a massive billion dollar studio. They get pressure from everything. They are not freedom fighters fighting against the system.
It seems more like a group of people demanding that this be an option in games (regardless of whether or not it fits the game) than a "larger conversation". Conversations involve multiple viewpoints, yet when Nintendo says there are story reasons for it (however lazy they may be) and that the lack of such an option doesn't affect how fun a game is people flatly reject the answer.
No one wants to look like a Mii. Ever.
The biggest thing I've taken away from this thread is that Link has somehow become one of the greatest well defined characters in fiction with a personality and motivations that millions could describe.
In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."
I find it really, really odd.
Anyways, on-topic: it probably would have been better for them to say that they're just cutting corners with the identical Link here instead of conjuring silly reasonings that anyone can see through anyways.
In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."
I find it really, really odd.
Thanks for the reply. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be contentious.
Obviously if it's a copy/paste job for every developer who is challenged on this front, one would question the sincerity and how deeply they'd considered their options. I wasn't trying to suggest a generic catch-all in this sense.
What I am humbly suggesting is a case where every developer has given genuine forethought to their protagonist in every possible light, and makes a sincere statement in this regard when pressed for an answer on the topic.
I accept that the majority of game developers (especially on the senior creative side) are male, and that they are naturally more inclined to create a story about a male protagonist. Maybe their track record for exclusive female leads is 1 game out of 10. Is this still something they should be blamed for?
Maybe blame is the wrong word. Should they still be called out and challenged? They are simply doing what comes naturally to them. I'm not saying this was the exact case with Nintendo here; they certainly could have responded better. The balance of male/female has been skewed from the start, and shoehorning in "easy changes" - while maybe appeasing some people short-term - isn't necessarily going to fix anything long-term.
In my humble opinion, good writing and more female creators will establish the balance we're looking for. More options are always nice in the meantime, but not even options are a necessity.
I don't think having a playable Zelda in a mainline game over 'fem' Link is a less valuable idea, just a less likely one.In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."
I could see maybe Sheik having a better chance, but they might see her as an even more obscure sell than regular princess Zelda and just regulate her more to a spin-off than a proper game like most people are suggesting.I think the biggest mark against Zelda isn't that she's not a desirable choice from a player standpoint (I'd love to be able to play as her and/or Shiek), but just the design implications. I could see them making certain sequences where you play as Zelda in short bursts, but I don't see them designing a mainline game with Zelda as the main character or one with two interchangeable characters with different playstyles. I mean, it'd be cool if they did. I just don't think it'd happen.
As I suspected, this debate has this perception that it is one sided and thus anyone against it is wrong because surly who in their right mind would be against this? Since you're in favour of change of course you're going to not find reasons against it as compelling. Here's a spanner for the works; I'm not against change, often play as female character, like customisation and honestly it would make no difference to me if Link was a female in the next game with no option to switch to male. Here's a kicker though, I never identify as Link so that whole aspect of the argument means nothing to me. However I'm not really a fan of debates where one side it portrayed as 'the bad side' which is why it may look like I'm on their side. Oh and by race I assume you mean skin tone since race in Hyrule refers to Hylians, humans, zoras, gorons etc and that wouldn't be as simply a switch as gender.Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games? To allow people to play as characters they can more easily identify with? Have you been paying attention at all?
And so what if Commander Shepard was customizable from the beginning? If Nintendo kept all the marketing, all the iconic Link designs, and simply added the ability to swap the gender or race of your character in the game, what changes? Will fans of the traditional Link suddenly not want Default Link Amiibos? Will the ability to change the gender or race of Link diminish your own personal like of the character?
EDIT: And again, let me emphasize that I'm not arguing that Nintendo SHOULD make these changes. I'm arguing that the people fighting against change don't really have a leg to stand on.
This is exactly why I feel people who are upset with gender politics in the game industry should simply ignore the western half of it and quit whining. If they are so paranoid that they are afraid that even Japan is "under attack" by so called SJWs (or whatever the term is), those paranoid gamers can check into the Chinese game industry.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is an issue in Japan as these things aren't taken to heart there the way they have been here lately.
I think the biggest mark against Zelda isn't that she's not a desirable choice from a player standpoint (I'd love to be able to play as her and/or Shiek), but just the design implications. I could see them making certain sequences where you play as Zelda in short bursts, but I don't see them designing a mainline game with Zelda as the main character or one with two interchangeable characters with different playstyles. I mean, it'd be cool if they did. I just don't think it'd happen.