Simon Belmont
Banned
It's more about setting. California/Arizona did not get bombed like the east coast/D.C. did. If you have a problem with the setting that's fine, but it isn't inconsistent storytelling.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3
- Thread starter Ogimachi
- Start date
It's more about setting. California/Arizona did not get bombed like the east coast/D.C. did. If you have a problem with the setting that's fine, but it isn't inconsistent storytelling.
EmCeeGramr
Member
The years part is nitpicky lore stuff that's fun for nerds like us but meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but the later parts that he writes about that nobody is discussing are kind of bang on: your dad sacrifices his life so that the Enclave can't have the purifier, even when they can't use it, and the sacrifice only kills a handful of Enclave and not the rest of them that seized the Jefferson Memorial, and then it turns out that the guy your dad tried to suicide bomb didn't even want to use the purifier for anything worse than "people will like us more if we give them clean water" which is pretty alright as military dictatorships go.
I mean, the whole reason the Enclave is bad in FO2 is that they see non-Enclave as non-humans who should be eradicated and that any kind of experimentation on them is justified to reach that goal. But Autumn... doesn't want to do that. The blog post compares your dad to Jonas Salk destroying the polio vaccine so the Nazis can't cure polio, but in this case the Nazis in question are planning to depose Hitler because they think that the whole Holocaust and the Aryan superiority thing were a bit out there.
Heck, there's something the article gets wrong that makes the whole purifier thing even weirder: it doesn't actually clean the entire Potomac. It just purifies the tidal basin, which makes it even more localized and strange that it's this massive huge deal that required superscience to do. As people have pointed out, Bethesda's free to retcon the GECK into being something else or have the GECK in 3 be a unique case or whatever, but if the thing is genuinely a matter transformation Genesis device thingamajig, then why is it being used to clear a single basin of water in the middle of a bombed out hellhole?
I mean, the whole reason the Enclave is bad in FO2 is that they see non-Enclave as non-humans who should be eradicated and that any kind of experimentation on them is justified to reach that goal. But Autumn... doesn't want to do that. The blog post compares your dad to Jonas Salk destroying the polio vaccine so the Nazis can't cure polio, but in this case the Nazis in question are planning to depose Hitler because they think that the whole Holocaust and the Aryan superiority thing were a bit out there.
Heck, there's something the article gets wrong that makes the whole purifier thing even weirder: it doesn't actually clean the entire Potomac. It just purifies the tidal basin, which makes it even more localized and strange that it's this massive huge deal that required superscience to do. As people have pointed out, Bethesda's free to retcon the GECK into being something else or have the GECK in 3 be a unique case or whatever, but if the thing is genuinely a matter transformation Genesis device thingamajig, then why is it being used to clear a single basin of water in the middle of a bombed out hellhole?
Yeah, because the entirety of the fanbase feels the same as you, seeing as you can speak for everyone. Fuck me.
Ottoni_Bastos
Banned
I'm not talking for you man,but you don't have to go that further to see this PoV is not just mine either.
Your always allowed to criticize Falllout 3 but it doesn't mean you are correct about what you say or that the majority of people feel the same way.
So none of the issues of Fallout NV was Obsidian fault? It's all Bethesda Fault? It's not even worth discussing this if that's the point your going to take.
It's not just you but it seems like it's not the majority of people talking about it either.
Ottoni_Bastos
Banned
you noticed that i used the word "mostly" and not "entirely",haven't you?
Simon Belmont
Banned
It's also the same people that made based New Vegas. Obviously since they can do no wrong, Fallout 3 wasn't silly enough.
RandomSeed
Member
No need to read. People in Fallout can't pick up trash on the floor of their homes.
JimJamJones
Member
I thought Fallout 3 was really good.
Brother where have you been?
While I enjoyed FO3, I felt NV has some better mechanics. The story was super meh to me though
Stallion Dan
Member
I didn't see any farms in Mad Max, and why doesn't everybody have a job? What a shit movie.
CTRL+F "S.P.E.C.I.A.L. just being window dressing and not actually fucking used. Thereby, Oblivion with Guns 3 is nothing more than an Elderscrolls Mod with guns."
0 results found.
Oh well, maybe they'll actually mention the role playing aspect of a formerly Pen and Paper-like ROLEPLAYING series in part 2. Maybe.
*scans*
Maybe Part 3?
*scans*
Maybe Part 4!?
*scans*
Maybe Part 5!?!?!?
*scans*
Well, damn. Nitpick the story to high-hell all you want, that's fine and dandy. But the biggest issue I had was the fact that you could be 1 INTelligent as a character and still able to do Nuclear Physics or hack computers without so much as breaking a sweat. Just like a low skilled Elderscrolls Character could pretty much do the same. Blech.
0 results found.
Oh well, maybe they'll actually mention the role playing aspect of a formerly Pen and Paper-like ROLEPLAYING series in part 2. Maybe.
*scans*
Maybe Part 3?
*scans*
Maybe Part 4!?
*scans*
Maybe Part 5!?!?!?
*scans*
Well, damn. Nitpick the story to high-hell all you want, that's fine and dandy. But the biggest issue I had was the fact that you could be 1 INTelligent as a character and still able to do Nuclear Physics or hack computers without so much as breaking a sweat. Just like a low skilled Elderscrolls Character could pretty much do the same. Blech.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I liked Fallout 3 a lot - nowhere near as much as New Vegas, and I enjoyed this written piece. I can't argue with any of it.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Dude there was a milk farm
Simon Belmont
Banned
None of the fallout games have SPECIAL stats effecting much beyond starting stats/health/some dialogue options. If you have 1 INT but 100 in hacking, you can hack anything. You're a savant!
I'm not saying that's not a valid criticism, it's just the way SPECIAL has always worked.
Yeah this kicked me out probably far more than it should have, because I actually live in the DC area and so the compression is much more tangible and goofy (Arlington is literally just the Cemetery.) I accept compressed worlds in my other open world games, but when it's based on a real location it does hurt my enjoyment, and contributes tot hat "theme park" feeling you describe.
Dangansona
Member
Great, it's the SPECTRE thread all over again. In my opinion Fallout 3 is a top 20 game of last gen.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I played the original Fallouts when they were new, and I still love FO3. So your 'camps' are sort of BS.
Simon Belmont
Banned
+1 for me. Played all the fallouts when they came out (except BOS) and I loved FO3. Still do.
Ottoni_Bastos
Banned
hahahaha holy sh*t i forgot about this! Worse than that is the karma system.You could create hell on earth,and then clean your image by giving bolttlecaps to a NPC.
You actually do see a few different farms in MM:FR.
A 2 Hour action movie that doesnt even try to tell a decent story has better world building than a 40-70 Hour RPG that relys heavy on it.
That just proves how much of a shitpile the world of F3 is.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
I don't know about either of these. Bethesda is all about creating the biggest sandbox, not the most technical or exacting. I understand this design decision as it doesn't exclude players and allows you to compensate for previous decisions without having to restart with a new character. It completely undermines any sense of meaning to choices but I get it.
Stallion Dan
Member
I was taking the piss.
It's made pretty obvious most people get by on trading and scavaging. So really it's just a 2 cows isn't a farm issue.
New Vegas suffers same issues with most of its towns and cities.
Top 20? That's oddly specific and not specific at the same time lol. You can name your 20 favorite games of last gen in order of best to worst (or, uh, least best) just like that?
The original games were flexible enough in their mechanics to circumvent these restrictions if you really put your mind to it. One time I made a 3 intelligence character and tried to do the Vault City citizen test just for shits and giggles, and smuggled in a bunch of drugs to temporarily buff my intelligence really high. What was great is that they thought ahead enough to consider these kinds of situations as well. Once I gained access to their vault and my intelligence went back down, there was still unique low intelligence dialogue and options for the computer terminals in there.
EmCeeGramr
Member
And outside of the main plot, there's like... quests that end in such a way that it's like they forgot how they started.
Blood Ties starts for most people when Lucy West asks you to check on her brother. You go to Arefu, and find that it's locked down because a gang called The Family has been terrorizing them worse than usual and even killed their only cattle. The West mother and father were killed, and you have to search a bunch of places until you find the right subway tunnel with The Family. Despite a lot of their incidental dialogue indicating that they just view themselves as a "tough gang," the leader reveals that they're actually cannibals with some kind of psychological compulsion to eat people. You're instructed to "educate yourself" about them, and learn that they pretend to be vampires and only murder select people to drink their blood. Oh, and the killing of cattle thing was just stuff getting out of hand. The Wests were actually killed by their own son, Lucy's brother, who has THE HUNGER which is a thing that exists in Fallout now I guess.
As the "kill the fucking murderous vampires and free Ian" thing is glitched to make Arefu hostile the quest a failure, the only real solution is to negotiate with Vance, the literal vampire man. The game suddenly acts like this cult of murderers is an oppressed minority of dangerous fanatics like the X-Men and Vance is their Charles Xavier, which makes sense since he's a brainwashing jackass. Depending on your skills and stats, you're given like four ways to ask, "Have you considered just drinking blood from the blood packs that are everywhere and not murdering people?" Vance reveals that he thought of this, but didn't really care too much until you brought it up. Turns out, you're going to negotiate a deal on Arefu's behalf! This malnourished, isolated little hamlet will donate their fucking blood on the regular and the heavily armed cannibal gangsters who terrorized them will leave them alone, or even guard them if you've got a silver tongue! Some might call this "extortion." Fallout 3 calls this a wise choice filled with good karma.
Ian West can go home, or not, and you're just left to assume that his whole "I have a mental illness that causes me to black out and murder and eat people" will just work itself out because you talked to him kind of nicely.
Lucy West can never be told about this, and any attempts to talk to her will result in her saying something like, "Oh yeah, I asked you about my family, eh they're probably fine."
Blood Ties starts for most people when Lucy West asks you to check on her brother. You go to Arefu, and find that it's locked down because a gang called The Family has been terrorizing them worse than usual and even killed their only cattle. The West mother and father were killed, and you have to search a bunch of places until you find the right subway tunnel with The Family. Despite a lot of their incidental dialogue indicating that they just view themselves as a "tough gang," the leader reveals that they're actually cannibals with some kind of psychological compulsion to eat people. You're instructed to "educate yourself" about them, and learn that they pretend to be vampires and only murder select people to drink their blood. Oh, and the killing of cattle thing was just stuff getting out of hand. The Wests were actually killed by their own son, Lucy's brother, who has THE HUNGER which is a thing that exists in Fallout now I guess.
As the "kill the fucking murderous vampires and free Ian" thing is glitched to make Arefu hostile the quest a failure, the only real solution is to negotiate with Vance, the literal vampire man. The game suddenly acts like this cult of murderers is an oppressed minority of dangerous fanatics like the X-Men and Vance is their Charles Xavier, which makes sense since he's a brainwashing jackass. Depending on your skills and stats, you're given like four ways to ask, "Have you considered just drinking blood from the blood packs that are everywhere and not murdering people?" Vance reveals that he thought of this, but didn't really care too much until you brought it up. Turns out, you're going to negotiate a deal on Arefu's behalf! This malnourished, isolated little hamlet will donate their fucking blood on the regular and the heavily armed cannibal gangsters who terrorized them will leave them alone, or even guard them if you've got a silver tongue! Some might call this "extortion." Fallout 3 calls this a wise choice filled with good karma.
Ian West can go home, or not, and you're just left to assume that his whole "I have a mental illness that causes me to black out and murder and eat people" will just work itself out because you talked to him kind of nicely.
Lucy West can never be told about this, and any attempts to talk to her will result in her saying something like, "Oh yeah, I asked you about my family, eh they're probably fine."
The Lamonster
Member
Lamplight was totally ridiculous and not plausible, but it was a lot of fun and memorable. Isn't that the point of video games?
^ FO3 in a nutshell.
^ FO3 in a nutshell.
The article's complaint about the lack of 200 years of innovation is ridiculous. The society of the 1800s wasn't suffering from a mass extinction and global radiation poisoning. The world Fallout 3/4 depicts is the "best we could manage" considering the circumstances.
You can't complain about the lack of 200 years of progress when people are scraping to survive for 200 years.
You can't complain about the lack of 200 years of progress when people are scraping to survive for 200 years.
That's pretty awesome. I've never played a low-intelligence character in FO 3 and New Vegas, I know that FO 3 doesn't handle it very well and that NV has some pretty funny dialogue but is there anything else?
You could make the same description of both games.
New Vegas is significantly better by virtue of writing, storytelling, world building, etc. It is still held back by many of the design, and visual, decisions that went into Fallout 3.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Fallout 3 has its problems, and I find it really hard to go back to after New Vegas, but I still think its a pretty good game. It was my GOTY for 2008 and I don't regret it, and I had a lot of fun with it. Exploring the Capital Wasteland was a great adventure. The story isn't all that good, and a lot of the quests are shitty (the above post about the Lucy West quest is a prime example), but the overall world and the style they went for is enough to make the game good. For me at least.
I agree, Fallout 1 and 2 look just fine to me. As for the mechanics, it speaks volumes that so many games were still inspired by these mechanics several years later. F1 and 2 have better combat than many modern turn-based games, but the same can't be said about F3 nowadays, I'm sure it won't do any better 20 years after its release.
The only counter-argument by F3 fans I've seen since release is that "the Enclave would occupy the region and control who'd have access to the purified water", but that would have just as many plot holes.
1- with their resources and firepower, there's nothing to prevent the Enclave from doing it regardless of whoever turns the purifier on.
2- the people in the Capital Wasteland seem to be doing just fine without it. So what if the Enclave takes it?
3- What would the enclave even do? Guard the whole portion of the Potomac that's been purified? They'd spread themselves along the river and would be sitting ducks. How is that worse than all-out war and bloody assaults?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Especially given that the motif of the series is man's propensity for conflict. I mean, its tagline these days is 'war never changes' and it goes on to explain how man is always fighting over something - resources being the most common. After the bombs dropped people were either locked inside isolated vault communities, or are survivors who have to scavenge through the fallout. This naturally leads to tribal formations and consistent raids between camps as they fight for food, water, etc. And this is even ignoring that vaults didn't all open at once, so a large amount of the population continued to be isolated for 10, 20, ... 200+ years. And at least a few of the vaults were basically immediately butchered upon being introduced to the wasteland as they had no clue what to expect and violent raiders were unfortunately their first contact. It's goofy to expect civilization to thrive and advance with all this conflict going on.
1.Fallout 3 is a game made in a broken engine,with poor graphics,poor art style,bad dialogues,dumb down dungeons design,lore inconsistencies,cartoonish characters divided between lawful good and lawful evil,and completely broken at launch.
I agree, poorly optimized engine. Graphics and art style are subjective. Yes, the idea of good and evil as a consequence is broken.
2.Fallout 3 is not a game,is a platform where modders spent time and energy fixing everything wrong in it.
Yes modders spent time modding the game. I have ran almost every stable mod available. I tend to prefer vanilla F3.
3. Fallout new vegas had a lot of problems(mostly because of the tight development cycle,bethesda pushing "mass market" rules on obsidian and,of course,the GameBryoken engine) but at least it felt like a serious attempt to modernize Fallout without taking a huge d**p on the fanbase.
Bethesda didn't push anyone. Obsidian signed a binding contract with Zenimax. Gunsights and a nostalgic based narrative do not qualify as modernization.
UncleSporky
Member
And again...there are modern day aboriginals living much the same way they did 200 years ago. Are we going to complain about their cultural stagnation?
This argument again? I'll post what I did in an earlier thread.
I've seen this "they're only standing on the shoulders of giants" argument repeated a few times even on GAF, and it's ridiculous. What made Fallout: New Vegas stand out had nothing to do with the framework that Bethesda had created with Fallout 3. The writing quality, the care in designing the logically and consistent world i.e. world-building, the themes explored in narrative, the characters, bringing back core mechanics and systems such as the Reputation system and a larger focus on skill checks, continuity with the previous Fallout games (Fallout 1 and 2 specifically), and respect of the established world from those past games has nothing to do with the technology and framework Obsidian was given to work with.
If anything, I feel this was more of a constraint than a positive. A lot of the people at Obsidian were instrumental in the development for Fallout and Fallout 2, and even went on to start Van Buren. Some form of isometric and turn-based system would have likely resulted in a much better game, but more to the point, Obsidian's achievements in New Vegas were in spite of the (in my opinion poor) frame work they were made to work with, and would still be present even if they copied Fallout 1's framework. Josh Sawyer has gone on to speak on some the limitations and decisions Bethesda imposed to keep the game "mass market" friendly, some of which he tried to fix (difficulty and balancing related) with his own mod.
As for Fallout 4, if what we've seen so far is anything to go by, their focus on "an emotional narrative" through voiced PCs is going to have repercussions. One that is already evident is the inexplicable dialogue wheel (square?) limited to four options, and two-three words (the full line gets read after choosing). It's not even clear whether skill checks will still be part of dialogue. Furthermore, the apparent focus on action-oriented gameplay, and reducing the effect of stats has me even more skeptical.
Bethesda aren't what they used to be. Whether it was a fluke or just the culmination before the decline, Morrowind is and continues to be their best example of creating a believable setting. The attention to detail is phenomenal. If Bethesda could've held onto whatever creative forces led to the world-building present in Morrowind, it would have been something to see. But they didn't, they made a push for consoles and streamlined their series substantially, and all the attention to detail was lost. It shouldn't come as a surprise when a developer like Obsidian whose strengths include world-building and writing, remind players of the difference.
What? A list of subjective statements doesn't bring anything to the argument. How is it more exciting? Why were they more memorable? Etc.
I don't personally think this article is very well written or presents any original material to the argument that hasn't already been talked about in forums or YouTube videos, but the overall conclusion is sound.
balladofwindfishes
Member
In New Vegas they continue to push that California is basically back to the old world quality of life. So it's not entirely lost by Bethesda, they just never show the player this apparently almost rebuilt country.
The article isn't very well written, but it got its good points across. After finished reading it, I just come to realization that this isn't a problem only found in FO3 as it is persist on all Bethesda game. They make beautiful, seemingly realistic looking world but they didn't bother to show it with their in game presentation. Everything in their world don't have any sort of agency but for the player to tweak and play upon. This is why after 100 hours of Skyrim I ended up hating it because I realized that and know very much that every nook and cranny in the game doesn't worth exploring twice.
And yes, the article is really right on the head about the lifeless wooden character. It enforces how all thing in the game is meant for only for the sake of player playthings. Bethesda characters are nothing but an exposition dispenser. It baffled me how in the flying fuck that none of Bethesda writers couldn't breath a slightest hint of life to the characters dialogues. It just mind boggling, and personally I blamed it to Bethesda approach of designing their game.
Well good for you and pretty much anyone else that have the ability to ignore it. Personally I can't force myself to go through Bethesda games main storyline twice because how awful they are.
It's hard for them to see what's wrong with FO3 because enjoyment is in their way. The kind of enjoyment that FO3 give at least, which is vastly different that what we get in FO1, FO2, and FNV. If your enjoy FO3 and can overlook the blithering problem, well that's good but if you're really invested in series and all of that lore that the original team work themselves hard to write it all down, you'll know why many of us believe that the series deserve better. Fallout deserve much better for all of its quirkiness and uniqueness. The thought that FO4 wouldn't be much better and pretty much the same makes my blood boiling in rage.
And yes, the article is really right on the head about the lifeless wooden character. It enforces how all thing in the game is meant for only for the sake of player playthings. Bethesda characters are nothing but an exposition dispenser. It baffled me how in the flying fuck that none of Bethesda writers couldn't breath a slightest hint of life to the characters dialogues. It just mind boggling, and personally I blamed it to Bethesda approach of designing their game.
Well good for you and pretty much anyone else that have the ability to ignore it. Personally I can't force myself to go through Bethesda games main storyline twice because how awful they are.
It's hard for them to see what's wrong with FO3 because enjoyment is in their way. The kind of enjoyment that FO3 give at least, which is vastly different that what we get in FO1, FO2, and FNV. If your enjoy FO3 and can overlook the blithering problem, well that's good but if you're really invested in series and all of that lore that the original team work themselves hard to write it all down, you'll know why many of us believe that the series deserve better. Fallout deserve much better for all of its quirkiness and uniqueness. The thought that FO4 wouldn't be much better and pretty much the same makes my blood boiling in rage.
Matrix XII
Member
So I see its the cool thing now to hate on Fallout 3.
I must be stuck in 2008 still or something because I adore this game and NV.
I must be stuck in 2008 still or something because I adore this game and NV.
Realistic/plausible and fun/memorable are not mutually exclusive
I hate this "yeah but it's a video gaaaame!" argument and it's variations sometimes. It does work sometimes, just none of the times it has been said in this thread.
Zoso
It's been a long time, been a long time, been a long lonely lonely lonely lonely lonely time.
The main story of Fallout 3 is indeed nonsensical. But I can't agree with some of his complaints. After Fallout 2 the series fully embraced the silliness. 3 and New Vegas are filled with goofy and unrealistic stories. And that's fine, realism is not a requirement for good entertainment.
I think Fallout 3 answers the "what do they eat?" question just fine. Lots of references in the game to people hunting mirelurks, mole rats, gecko, squirrel, and yao guai. You often encounter hunters in the wasteland who sell their meats to the brahmin caravans. These caravans travel to every major settlement selling their wares. There are farms in the Capital Wasteland too, but most aren't actively growing crops - likely because a lot of the wasteland is without clean water. The only freshly grown vegetables are in Rivet City's science lab. So Project Purity's success would likely lead to a major rise in agriculture.
I think Fallout 3 answers the "what do they eat?" question just fine. Lots of references in the game to people hunting mirelurks, mole rats, gecko, squirrel, and yao guai. You often encounter hunters in the wasteland who sell their meats to the brahmin caravans. These caravans travel to every major settlement selling their wares. There are farms in the Capital Wasteland too, but most aren't actively growing crops - likely because a lot of the wasteland is without clean water. The only freshly grown vegetables are in Rivet City's science lab. So Project Purity's success would likely lead to a major rise in agriculture.
human onion
Banned
Bethesda never gave a shit about Fallout. They take the property and gut it's lore so they could make a 'soft reboot' and then made it a first person shooter, because those sold lots in 2007. Why take the property and not make the numbered game an actual sequel? Why take an RPG system that depended almost entirely on character stats and blend it with a genre that depends almost entirely on player skill? Having both a real-time and turn-based system that you can switch between just means that you'll use whichever system you can exploit better, and that's exactly what I did.
As far as I can tell, all of these decisions were made so they could make a game that a mass audience could eat up while still cashing in on a name. Obsidian was able to correct one of the two in New Vegas.
As far as I can tell, all of these decisions were made so they could make a game that a mass audience could eat up while still cashing in on a name. Obsidian was able to correct one of the two in New Vegas.
So, you buy into (greatly it seems) what Obsidian attemptedto create with NV
I see a an Obsidian that was struggling to stay alive, saw the success of F3 and intuitively thought they might be able to piggyback upon that. They approached Zenimax with the idea that they could broach the gap between oldschool and newschool. An obvious win-win. Which it was in many respects.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
How do you not have the ability to ignore it?
Believe it or not, story and characters is a big deal for some people, especially in RPG's