The smaller the CPU is, the more relevant the instruction set is for the overall efficiency of the device. Multiple decoders dealing with different "domains" of the instruction space, and in different ways, at that, trace caches, u-op caches, instructions which grow in length so much that they hog even the widest decoders - all those things are typical for x86.Tbh, most of this isn't really valid. The instruction set has very little to do with power consumption and heat, it's about the microarchitecture. But I guess that's true that it would be more costly.
I'm hoping their next handheld does use one of the weirdly shaped Sharp "free form" displays...
...just to annoy people by making it as tricky as possible to name its exact resolution.
Microarchitectures are more tedious to work with (incl. from the POV of the compiler) than one might think. BTW, if you strip the x86 front-end from Jaguar you end up with an intermediate quasi-RISC ISA, more or less.I've long wondered if a console could use one of AMD's cores, drop the x86 translation unit and just compile direct to micro-ops. I'd guess the cost of customising the core far exceeds the benefits in terms of saved die space, but it's an interesting curiosity.
Is anybody else expecting the home console to target some of the shortcomings of the Xbox One/PS4 designs, even if it doesn't have the raw horsepower? Nintendo is obsessed with efficiency, and I think they could achieve a well balanced developer friendly system that doesn't crush the bank by spending their money in the right places.
- Fewer cores, but higher clocks - Say Puma+ x86 cores at 2-2.5ghz.
- A mix of low latency on die memory with higher latency DDR5 - For example: 32MB of on die memory and 4 or 6GB of Shared DDR5
- Target a GPU that gets within range of XBone but doesn't break the bank - 8 GCN 1.2 CU's at 1ghz is roughtly 1TF of performance.
- Some high speed flash internal storage to avoid excessive load times - allow assets to be installed from disc.
- Target low OS overhead for maximum developer resource availability - avoid feature bloat.
Microarchitectures are more tedious to work with (incl. from the POV of the compiler) than one might think. BTW, if you strip the x86 front-end from Jaguar you end up with an intermediate quasi-RISC ISA, more or less.
Is anybody else expecting the home console to target some of the shortcomings of the Xbox One/PS4 designs, even if it doesn't have the raw horsepower? Nintendo is obsessed with efficiency, and I think they could achieve a well balanced developer friendly system that doesn't crush the bank by spending their money in the right places.
- Fewer cores, but higher clocks - Say Puma+ x86 cores at 2-2.5ghz.
- A mix of low latency on die memory with higher latency DDR5 - For example: 32MB of on die memory and 4 or 6GB of Shared DDR5
- Target a GPU that gets within range of XBone but doesn't break the bank - 8 GCN 1.2 CU's at 1ghz is roughtly 1TF of performance.
- Some high speed flash internal storage to avoid excessive load times - allow assets to be installed from disc.
- Target low OS overhead for maximum developer resource availability - avoid feature bloat.
On a 5"-6" screen? What are you planning on doing, reading google scholar articles?
540p or 720p, either is fine for a screen of that size with a high enough PPI for qHD/HD. The more pixel dense you make the screen, the more power you need to drive it and the more battery hungry your device becomes.
540p is not acceptable for anything period anymore. 720p is stretching it at 5", def not 6".
Not if you're keeping costs down. Plus it makes things easier to scale if they really are going for the same architecture & OS across both the console & handheld.540p is not acceptable for anything period anymore. 720p is stretching it at 5", def not 6".
And if they do go with a scalable architecture & a common OS across all their hardware, upping the specs could easily be done without potentially screwing over pre-existing owners of the NX Handheld.I reckon they'll go with 540p, and then in a year or two release an NX handheld XL, with a 720p screen, and beefed up specs to go along with it.
It kind of amazes me how long they've been doing XL handhelds a with displays at the same resolution as the original models. The screens look so ugly to me blown up to that size.
540p is not acceptable for anything period anymore. 720p is stretching it at 5", def not 6".
Yeah, I purely meant the higher specs would offset the higher resolution. Playing the same software but with a resolution bump.And if they do go with a scalable architecture & a common OS across all their hardware, upping the specs could easily be done without potentially screwing over pre-existing owners of the NX Handheld.
Does anyone think the NX handheld will be physically similar to the DS/3DS or will they go for a different form factor this time?
Does anyone think the NX handheld will be physically similar to the DS/3DS or will they go for a different form factor this time?
I been wondering this myself. If they keep BC with 3ds, then clamshell would be the best compact design. Maybe it would be like landscape mode for NX game and flip it sideways for BC.
What I question if it will still have 3d. I doubt it.
Can someone tell me if the way the n3ds does it with face detection and software only or does it still have that special screen?
Well, it would all fit onto a 540p screen, but they'd be tiny unless the NX has a 5.5" screen or more.Different. If they want BC they can do it like DS games on Wii U which showed they're not afraid of stuffing everything onto one screen.
In that case, I think it's likely that Nintendo would use a two screen arrangement. I remember that they've made comments about not putting touch functionality on the 3D screen because it ruined the effect.I think the willingness to spend money and effort on the feature in New 3DS is a sign that they may continue to use 3D for handhelds.
Well, it would all fit onto a 540p screen, but they'd be tiny.
256gflops is not slightly ahead of 360, is a lot better given how much more efficient GPUs and APIs are today compared to what the Xbox had, that's why the Wii U beats it as well despite being 176gflops. Anyway it's impossible imho, that would be more than the iPad Air 2 which has a 2048x1536 screens, comes at 499$ and has a way bigger battery/form factor. Half that or less (around the iPhone 6's 115.2gflops GPU) is more likely, but probably still a bit optimistic.
No way they keep 3D for the Nx handheld
No way they keep 3D for the Nx handheld
Not speaking about the portable being hybrid nor anything, if the new portable was Vita rez/graphics, i guess most people would find that pretty shocking for 2016/17, yet i'd argue that (it's never really taken in consideration) the graphical upgrade would be insane for most Nintendo games, compared to 3ds. There would be some amazingly beautiful games on this.
Now, if the portable is meant to be some sort of WiiU successor to, it's going to be more tough.
If NX is a platform, I expect
NX Handheld
NX Handheld 3D
NX Handheld XL
Play same games, just different form factors.
I wouldn't count it out yet. Having two screens would be more expensive to include compared to including 3D. The n3DS also had good sales and was praised for its dramatically improved 3D.No way they keep 3D for the Nx handheld
Up: The job listing is gone, so either Nintendo found someone or they just took it down.
https://nintendo.taleo.net/careersection/10000/jobdetail.ftl?job=140000005E&src=SNS-10380
Description of Duties
Nintendo Technology Development is looking for a lead graphics architect in the system-on-chip architecture group in Redmond, WA. The group is responsible for the architecture of Nintendo’s game console SoCs. The graphics architect plays a key role in determining the SoC architecture. The job responsibilities are:
Evaluate HW graphics (GPU) offerings from SoC solutions available in the market based on performance, power, and silicon area.
Evaluate the performance of the SoC solutions for both proprietary and standard graphics APIs.
Determine workloads and simulation models for both performance and power characteristics of GPUs.
Keep track of GPU architectural improvements in the industry and devise strategies to incorporate them for future Nintendo gaming platforms.
Act as the graphics architectural evangelist working with global Nintendo teams for future and on-going programs.
Work with external SoC vendors as the Nintendo focal point for graphics GPU architecture.
Should be prepared to work through architecture, design, validation, and bring-up stages of SoC design in cooperation with internal and external teams.
Summary of Requirements
The ideal candidate will have had experience working directly in a GPU architecture and design team with significant responsibilities.
Low power and SoC design experience would be a plus.
The candidate is expected to have good architectural insights and the ability to apply that for setting future graphics direction for Nintendo.
A bachelors degree (graduate degree preferred) in computer science/engineering or electrical engineering.
5+ years of lead or architectural role experience are required.
No console form factor?If NX is a platform, I expect
NX Handheld
NX Handheld 3D
NX Handheld XL
Play same games, just different form factors.
I saw the new face tracking stuff in the n3DS as somewhat of a sign that Nintendo is exploring more software-based solutions for doing the 3D effect. Although it still couldn't get as good as having a physical barrier, it might "suffice" for some.
I'd forgotten about this.
Is the specific mention of "SoC" (over "APU") something we should be taking note of? Nintendo merged handheld and console R&D teams in 2013 (in Japan, at least, likely NTD as well)
What I can say is, certainly, within Nintendo the fact that our development environment for our home console is different from the development environment for our portable system is certainly an area of stress or challenge for the development teams. So as we move forward, we're going to look at what we can do to unify the two development environments.
So, particularly with digital downloads now and the idea that you're downloading the right to play a game, that opens up the ability to have multiple platform digital downloads where you can download on one and download on another. Certainly from a development standpoint there is some challenge to it, because if you have two devices that have different specs and you're being told to design in a way that the game runs on both devices, then that can be challenging for the developer—but if you have a more unified development environment and you're able to make one game that runs on both systems instead of having to make a game for each system, that's an area of opportunity for us.
Puma isn't designed to go past 2GHz in an non-turbo environment, and although you could theoretically get a bit more out of it on a 20nm/14nm node, AMD doesn't seem interested in continuing their "cat" processor line past 28nm.
In theory AMD's new Zen core would provide them with a "fewer cores, higher performance" option, but there's very little we know about it at the moment, either in terms of performance or die size. In fact, the one thing we do know is that it's being manufactured on a 14nm process, and assuming the NX launches late 2016 that would put Nintendo in early adopter territory for the new manufacturing node, which doesn't really fit with their past behaviour. (Although you can always read too much into past behaviour)
I doubt we'll see any GDDR5. If they were sticking with split memory pools then having a high bandwidth secondary pool largely negates the benefit of having split pools in the first place. Even if not, GDDR5 is approaching EoL, and by the end of the NX's lifetime Nintendo could be the only company left buying GDDR5, which isn't a situation you want to be in when manufacturers start dropping it from their line-up.
If they go with a single pool I could actually see them go with HBM. It would still be more expensive than GDDR5 for a late 2016 launch, but would almost certainly end up being cheaper for Nintendo over the life of the console, and obviously gives some benefits in terms of bandwidth, simplified logic board design and power savings.
If they choose split pools again I would see them sticking with DDR3/DDR4, erring on the side of DDR4 again because of the phase out of DDR3 (although DDR3 will be produced for a lot longer than GDDR5 will).
Weren't cartridges the reason why the N64 was ignored by third parties? And even then, there may be a concern that high-capacity cartridges may be expensive to produce. While granted, SD Cards are on the cheap to make, they're still expensive as hell for market price if you want a cartridge with insane amounts of storage (which is a requirement for HD gaming). Plus it wouldn't guarantee support for every single game across both platforms. While granted, it'd cover most, someone like Game Freak could just as easily put a lock on the cartridge that says "Must be played on the NX Handheld" whenever anyone attempts to put in a mainline Pokémon game into the NX Console.Thanks to some deduction, I think we can safely assume that both a Console and a Handheld are currently in development. Nintendo has consistently mentioned NX as a console, people like Tenabe saying Prime 4 would have to now be developed for NX if it were made, DQ11 coming to it (I'm assuming this is the PS4 version of the game as the 3DS version would be probably a mess to port over to it.
Miyamoto has said that Wii U had a problem with the gamepad making the console too pricey and unappealing http://nintendonews.com/2015/06/miyamoto-tablet-devices-wii-u-sales/
Iwata has said that they will create one architecture but was careful to point out he didn't mean a single device and even pointed to the possibility of more devices.
Miyamoto again here: http://kotaku.com/miyamoto-can-imagine-nintendo-making-hybrid-console-han-1594989023
And finally "Matt" Mentioning that a Nintendo device has a screen, gives away in my opinion that both devices are being made in parallel and that we will likely see them launch under a single platform.
As for Specs, I doubt it really matters, DQ11 is UE4. Japan is a huge draw for UE4 right now as the western publishers largely use their own engines, but we can gather some insight into what we should be looking for.
Spec talk
Firstly AMD is almost certainly the partner behind Nintendo, there is little reason to assume that Nintendo would go with anyone else as AMD has A57 architecture available and has partnered in some form with Nintendo for 2 decades now (The N64 GPU was created by the team that left and became ArtX, and that company/team was bought out by AMD nearly 15 years ago)
Second, AMD is moving onto 14nm next year which has a huge capacity for production but 10nm is where phones are moving next year, so these large capacity factories will have to be converted or find new products which leaves plenty of budget pricing for Nintendo to pick up 14nm but I think it is important to note that AMD would be the company picking the node and technology (as they are the supplier) the customer in this case would ask for best performance for "x" amount of $.
Nintendo's handheld and console will likely have a 540p (Matt's comments really do point here imo) and 1080p resolution for Nintendo games, this is largely because you'd want your games to scale easily and Performance per Pixel being 1:4 gives you a pretty good idea of the scaling you'd be able to do without having the hardware in front of you, which is important when you are asking for something not yet created.
What I'm thinking for hardware is 128 shaders in the handheld with 512 shaders in the console, this is your 1:4, you don't have to be strict about performance here and it is better if you are not because headroom isn't a bad thing, I think you'll get this out of clocks rather than more powerful hardware however. 400-500mhz for the handheld (102gflops to 128gflops) and 800-1000mhz for the GPU (819gflops to 1tflop) the handheld side would compete fairly well with Wii U, you are looking at 540p vs 720p (for most wii u games) as well as a much newer architecture than Wii U's 2008 GPU, making the handheld very easy to port from Wii U which was also something Iwata talked about in the past when mentioning how hard it was to port Wii games to 3DS, this would seemingly not have that problem. 1tflop would also be perfect for the console as XB1 generally runs it's games in 900p @ 1.3tflops, this is very close to that Performance per Pixel ratio you'd want to hit. Of course another and more important way to look at it is 1080p PS4 games could likely be ran at 720p without sacrifice at 1tflops, and if it is GCN2 (AMD's next graphics cores that come out next year) you could probably get away with that 819gflops while accomplishing this same task.
RAM you'd want to go with 1-2GBs on the handheld with 4x more on the console, even Nintendo in the past when launching Wii spoke about how you'd need ~4x more memory for HD development.
CPU I feel is perfectly fine to use A57 for both as it has a high IPC (instructions per clock) and can compete with the other next gen consoles just fine, I'd even say a big.LITTLE setup with 4 2ghz+ A57 cores and 4 A53 cores would be more than enough to keep up with the other platforms and even give it an edge.
I think they will also go with gamecards like 3DS uses for both devices, a single physical media is honestly key to their message of 1 platform, this would also give them forced support for their console as it would literally play the handheld games at a higher resolution and possibly other settings changed. You'd get your console pokemon, you'd get more resources from nintendo's developers not working on 2 versions of a title, you save on shipping costs which is a huge factor with physical media, store fronts would have much more room, advertise budget would increase drastically and 3rd party support that has always been there for Nintendo's handhelds would be automatically on the console.
If anyone got through that, thanks for indulging me, this is how the NX platform looks to be shaping up from everything I've heard, but one key thing that I know is coming is a new gimmick, and that I really couldn't guess at but my assumption is it is shared between both devices this time.
P.S. I don't think dual screens would be a bad idea to limit to communication between the handheld and the console, meaning you'd need both for certain functions, much like gamecube to GBA but without the cords and hassle.
Weren't cartridges the reason why the N64 was ignored by third parties? And even then, there may be a concern that high-capacity cartridges may be expensive to produce. While granted, SD Cards are on the cheap to make, they're still expensive as hell for market price if you want a cartridge with insane amounts of storage (which is a requirement for HD gaming). Plus it wouldn't guarantee support for every single game across both platforms. While granted, it'd cover most, someone like Game Freak could just as easily put a lock on the cartridge that says "Must be played on the NX Handheld" whenever anyone attempts to put in a mainline Pokémon game into the NX Console.
I was more thinking of a code for a digital copy of the other version of the game.Solid state media like carts are the only practical solution for a handheld. You could augment the data on those for the console version by downloading additional data onto the HDD.
post above
Thanks to some deduction, I think we can safely assume that both a Console and a Handheld are currently in development. Nintendo has consistently mentioned NX as a console, people like Tenabe saying Prime 4 would have to now be developed for NX if it were made, DQ11 coming to it (I'm assuming this is the PS4 version of the game as the 3DS version would be probably a mess to port over to it.
Miyamoto has said that Wii U had a problem with the gamepad making the console too pricey and unappealing http://nintendonews.com/2015/06/miyamoto-tablet-devices-wii-u-sales/
Iwata has said that they will create one architecture but was careful to point out he didn't mean a single device and even pointed to the possibility of more devices.
Miyamoto again here: http://kotaku.com/miyamoto-can-imagine-nintendo-making-hybrid-console-han-1594989023
And finally "Matt" Mentioning that a Nintendo device has a screen, gives away in my opinion that both devices are being made in parallel and that we will likely see them launch under a single platform.
As for Specs, I doubt it really matters, DQ11 is UE4. Japan is a huge draw for UE4 right now as the western publishers largely use their own engines, but we can gather some insight into what we should be looking for.
Spec talk
Firstly AMD is almost certainly the partner behind Nintendo, there is little reason to assume that Nintendo would go with anyone else as AMD has A57 architecture available and has partnered in some form with Nintendo for 2 decades now (The N64 GPU was created by the team that left and became ArtX, and that company/team was bought out by AMD nearly 15 years ago)
Second, AMD is moving onto 14nm next year which has a huge capacity for production but 10nm is where phones are moving next year, so these large capacity factories will have to be converted or find new products which leaves plenty of budget pricing for Nintendo to pick up 14nm but I think it is important to note that AMD would be the company picking the node and technology (as they are the supplier) the customer in this case would ask for best performance for "x" amount of $.
Nintendo's handheld and console will likely have a 540p (Matt's comments really do point here imo) and 1080p resolution for Nintendo games, this is largely because you'd want your games to scale easily and Performance per Pixel being 1:4 gives you a pretty good idea of the scaling you'd be able to do without having the hardware in front of you, which is important when you are asking for something not yet created.
What I'm thinking for hardware is 128 shaders in the handheld with 512 shaders in the console, this is your 1:4, you don't have to be strict about performance here and it is better if you are not because headroom isn't a bad thing, I think you'll get this out of clocks rather than more powerful hardware however. 400-500mhz for the handheld (102gflops to 128gflops) and 800-1000mhz for the GPU (819gflops to 1tflop) the handheld side would compete fairly well with Wii U, you are looking at 540p vs 720p (for most wii u games) as well as a much newer architecture than Wii U's 2008 GPU, making the handheld very easy to port from Wii U which was also something Iwata talked about in the past when mentioning how hard it was to port Wii games to 3DS, this would seemingly not have that problem. 1tflop would also be perfect for the console as XB1 generally runs it's games in 900p @ 1.3tflops, this is very close to that Performance per Pixel ratio you'd want to hit. Of course another and more important way to look at it is 1080p PS4 games could likely be ran at 720p without sacrifice at 1tflops, and if it is GCN2 (AMD's next graphics cores that come out next year) you could probably get away with that 819gflops while accomplishing this same task.
RAM you'd want to go with 1-2GBs on the handheld with 4x more on the console, even Nintendo in the past when launching Wii spoke about how you'd need ~4x more memory for HD development.
CPU I feel is perfectly fine to use A57 for both as it has a high IPC (instructions per clock) and can compete with the other next gen consoles just fine, I'd even say a big.LITTLE setup with 4 2ghz+ A57 cores and 4 A53 cores would be more than enough to keep up with the other platforms and even give it an edge.
I think they will also go with gamecards like 3DS uses for both devices, a single physical media is honestly key to their message of 1 platform, this would also give them forced support for their console as it would literally play the handheld games at a higher resolution and possibly other settings changed. You'd get your console pokemon, you'd get more resources from nintendo's developers not working on 2 versions of a title, you save on shipping costs which is a huge factor with physical media, store fronts would have much more room, advertise budget would increase drastically and 3rd party support that has always been there for Nintendo's handhelds would be automatically on the console.
If anyone got through that, thanks for indulging me, this is how the NX platform looks to be shaping up from everything I've heard, but one key thing that I know is coming is a new gimmick, and that I really couldn't guess at but my assumption is it is shared between both devices this time.
P.S. I don't think dual screens would be a bad idea to limit to communication between the handheld and the console, meaning you'd need both for certain functions, much like gamecube to GBA but without the cords and hassle.
Even 115 gflops would be a massive performance jump. Vita is only around 52 gflops. I think at the very least we can consider Vita a low end. Even if they settled on something like a Tegra 4 it would bring them to around 96gflops which would be still be a sizable boost over vita and be perfect for perfecting 540p
Agreed.The point is, in 2016 it won't take much of a mobile-class GPU to well-surpass VITA in a Nintendo handheld.
Yup, mobile tech has definitely gone a long way since the PS Vita was launched on the market. That being said, Tegra X1 performances are currently beyond what you can put in a handheld device considering heat/battery issues. I think something like the iPhone 6 GPU would be incredibly good for the new portable, and it's possible that they'll use it, but i'm being a bit more conservative and considering that to be the best case scenario. So if it happens i'll be super happy, if not i had my expectactions in check and won't be disappointed if the actual GPU is "reasonably" less powerful than that.it's not easy to pin down a figure for PS VITA's performance (PowerVR SGX543MP4+) but it's somewhere below iPad 4.(SGX 554MP4). The most frequently noted figure is 51.2 gflops. And aside from architectural, efficiency and API differences, that figure is seemingly 1/10th that of Tegra X1's 512 Gflops
Great post. Happy to see your proposed specs are very close to mine too
These were my proposed specsSounds great but can anyone else chime in - is this really feasible?
Darkwing Duck.Who's this Matt guy?
Probably, but i still have a bit of hope that they'll think long term and go with cartridges. It's true that despite being quite cheap now they still cost more than discs, but at the same time Nintendo can save some money with the game card slot vs an optical drive, which also generates more heat, noise and draws more power. Cartridges offer better trade offs from the start and are a much better choice for long term, so we'll see.sörine;173678577 said:I expect different media for the console and the handheld still. Digital purchases will work on both which is just fine from Nintendo's perspective as that's where they'd prefer people buying games.
At most perhaps the console also has a game card slot, but I still expect an optical drive in it.
Completely different things.Why 64 bit ? Aren't the Wii U & the other current gen consoles 128 bit?
Why 64 bit ? Aren't the Wii U & the other current gen consoles 128 bit?Agreed.
Yup, mobile tech has definitely gone a long way since the PS Vita was launched on the market. That being said, Tegra X1 performances are currently beyond what you can put in a handheld device considering heat/battery issues. I think something like the iPhone 6 GPU would be incredibly good for the new portable, and it's possible that they'll use it, but i'm being a bit more conservative and considering that to be the best case scenario. So if it happens i'm super happy, if not i had my expectactions in check and won't be disappointed if it's "reasonably" less than that.
Of course if it's 64gflops i'm going to scream haha :'D
Great post. Happy to see your proposed specs are very close to mine too
These were my proposed specs
NX Mobile
AMD 64-bit ARM-based SoC 28nm
CPU: ARMv8 Cortex-A53 4 core 1.2GHZ (1 core OS)
GPU: custom AMD mobile (128 stream processors at 400/500MHZ=102.4/128 GFLOPs)
(Alternatively, A53 4 core 1.2GHZ with one reserved to the OS+PowerVR GX6450)
RAM: 16MB SRAM+3GB LPDDR4 (1GB OS)
Storage: 8/16GB Flash memory+SD card slot
Top screen: 540p IPS/AMOLED
Bottom screen(?): 480p IPS/AMOLED
2600mAh battery
8/16GB Cartridges
OS: Android based NintendOS
NX Home
AMD 64-bit ARM-based SoC 28nm
CPU ARMv8 Cortex-A57 6 core 2-2.5GHZ (OS: Cortex-A53 2 core)
AMD GCN 1.2 28nm (10CU, 640 stream processors, 800MHZ, 1024 GFLOPs)
32-40MB eDRAM+8GB DDR3 (2GB OS)
128GB Flash memory+SD card slot+external drives
32/64GB Cartridges
OS: Android based NintendOS
which like i said are very similar, so i'd personally say yes. Prices would be similar to DS launch price or regular new 3DS current price (so 149-169) for the handheld and around Wii (or a bit more, like 249-269) for the home.
Darkwing Duck.
He's a long time insider with a flawless track record. Generally, if he says something, it's definitely true.
Probably, but i still have a bit of hope that they'll think long term and go with cartridges. It's true that despite being quite cheap now they still cost more than discs, but at the same time Nintendo can save some money with the game card slot vs an optical drive, which also generates more heat, noise and draws more power. Cartridges offer better trade offs from the start and are a much better choice for long term, so we'll see.