It'd surprise me but if that's what they're going for then it'll be interesting to see how it works out for a console manufacturer.
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It'd surprise me but if that's what they're going for then it'll be interesting to see how it works out for a console manufacturer.
Father_Brain
Banned
I don't dispute any of that. I just have to think that there are limits to how far scalability will get you if you're starting with a technically ambitious design; as far as UE4 goes, surely something like Abzu or Rising Thunder would be easier to port down to mobile than, say, KHIII or Ark.
Of course, the PICA200 GPU in 3DS also has fixed function pixel shaders which also allows for improved graphics beyond poly count.
Just stating the obvious here - If Handheld-NX is like the little brother of Console-NX with the same GPU feature set / shader model and good performance typical of modern mobile GPUs, we should see another huge leap in graphics for Nintendo portable gaming over 3DS and New 3DS. Nevermind a bump in resolution to 540p (I agree with the 540p guess) and hopefully significantly better DPI.
I'd be heartbroken if Nintendo ditched auto-stereoscopic 3D, however others have said they strongly believe the new handheld will retain it, or at least there might be an SKU that has it, as New 3DS has shown a great improvement with its face-tracking 3D and why would Nintendo have developed that *just* for New 3DS, a stopgap between 3DS and the next gen handheld. I personally love 3D when specially when it's used to full effect. I always use it, slider all the way up, would miss 3D dearly if it's completely gone from the next handheld and no option for it.
Just stating the obvious here - If Handheld-NX is like the little brother of Console-NX with the same GPU feature set / shader model and good performance typical of modern mobile GPUs, we should see another huge leap in graphics for Nintendo portable gaming over 3DS and New 3DS. Nevermind a bump in resolution to 540p (I agree with the 540p guess) and hopefully significantly better DPI.
I'd be heartbroken if Nintendo ditched auto-stereoscopic 3D, however others have said they strongly believe the new handheld will retain it, or at least there might be an SKU that has it, as New 3DS has shown a great improvement with its face-tracking 3D and why would Nintendo have developed that *just* for New 3DS, a stopgap between 3DS and the next gen handheld. I personally love 3D when specially when it's used to full effect. I always use it, slider all the way up, would miss 3D dearly if it's completely gone from the next handheld and no option for it.
I don't want to derail the thread to much lol but yeah i like your way to take those "single datas" and pretend they don't mean anything on a longer term. You're part of the guys who will tell me Nintendo had solid sucess with Nes, Snes, N64, a failure with the GC, then Wii mad them the kings of gaming world. Sure sure. There hasn't been a solid decline in their position on a certain demographic since the N64, that results in a situation, today, where their portable offer is enough for its demographic. WiiU was a poor mistake in communication, cause Wii was so successful, how did that happen, they probably screwed BIG there. There is nothing to read on the last 15 years. People who think, like me, that WiiU situation is just the direct continuation of the NGC situation, with the Wii being a nice and profitable digression on a short term audience, are absolutly crazy (and Nintendo haters probably). Suuure, go on with that. Nintendo just has to fix some things and their next home console will be a huge success and reach PS4/XBO numbers, it's as easy as that. There is nothing deeper, nothing.
lwilliams3
Member
In all fairness, your "Nintendo consoles only get a graphic upgrade per two gens" statement eariler was simply false.
Your other agrument does have much more weight. It is true that Nintendo's console userbase has consistently declined since the NES if you ignore the huge outlier that is the Wii. My personal problem with that statistic is that it downplays how badly the Wii U was planned to it simply being a natural trend. There are way too many un-Nintendo-like missteps done with the Wii U for it to be accurately used like that.
In all fairness, your "Nintendo consoles only get a graphic upgrade per two gens" statement eariler was simply false.
Your other agrument does have much more weight. It is true that Nintendo's console userbase has consistently declined since the NES if you ignore the huge outlier that is the Wii. My personal problem with that statistic is that it downplays how badly the Wii U was planned to it simply being a natural trend. There are way too many missteps done with the Wii U for it to be accurately used like that.
There is currently two possible destiny for a Nintendo console. Being a mainstream hit, by breaking the gamer's usual market and expending it, or.. being destined to the portion of Nintendo fans not happy with just a portable. This is the WiiU, it's there, don't go farther than that.
What WiiU missed, is the opportunity to have a "family tablet" thing that would have made its market way bigger. It never ever worked.
And please guys stop focusing on that "every two gen" statement lol. It's pretty obvious that Nintendo tried to delay the upgrade of its assets for years! That's just you focusing on a the way i formulated things to deny something fucking obvious.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
People already have their 'family tablet' though, it's called an ipad, nexus 9, kindle fire, galaxy tab, etc.
All are vastly more portable and useful devices. What nintendo bet the farm on was touch and DS like play in the living room, which just wasn't that appealing to the masses.
Pokemaniac
Member
There are deeper problems with your "every two gen" statement than that. You're ignoring the context of why they made the decision in the first place,as well as the implications of doing it a second time. Sony and Microsoft spent way more money on PS3 and 360 than what Nintendo was willing to spend on the Wii. The Wii was an attempt to break away from Sony and Microsoft's self-destructive strategies and provide innovation on a different front. There's also the fact that the GameCube, the base the Wii was built on , was a pretty powerful machine for its time, meaning the Wii was outdated, but not ridiculously so.
The situation has changed now. Sony and Microsoft have stopped burning money by the truckload to make high spec machines, meaning Nintendo would be able to reasonably compete on specs again. Nintendo's current console is also already fairly weak for its time, so forgoing a generational spec bump would leave Nintendo with a laughably weak console. Unless NX has the best innovative feature ever, that's a bad look for a console.
I don't see how following the Wii strategy for NX puts Nintendo in a favorable position, and they don't have the proper motivation to do it again, either.
They could call it Nintendo Forever (maybe add a question mark to the name during the first few weeks) and bring back Nicole Kidman for the ad campaign. Chris O'Donnell could play her 10-year-old boy. Then we know it's for the entire family.
Fourth Storm
Member
Some good discussion regarding the media format and cross-play. There are a number of issues that would need to be worked out for cross-play with a physical copy to feasible. I am also very wary of the suggestion that Nintendo use a Game Card type medium in the home console. Here is how I break it down:
First, let's look at how this would affect console developers. Using a game card or another type of flash memory would actually be raising the buy-in cost to develop a game for the home console, since flash costs more than BRD and digital is, of course, cheapest. If Activision wanted to port CoD or Nintendo somehow got EA back on board for Madden, those developers would be forced to either shell out top dollar for the biggest card size available or compress their games down to size, possibly cutting content or quality. At a time where the largest console developers are Western and have not been supporting your console, increasing the cost to publish on your platform would be a hilarious misstep.
If, as some have suggested, the Game Card would act as a license to download additional assets for the console, that would lead to a situation were certain games were unplayable out of the box or vastly downgraded from their true potential. This would be one step away from a digital-only console.
Speaking of which, there is the possibility of going digital only, but this has the possibility of doing irreparable damage to their relationships with retailers. Nintendo have shown an interest in increasing these partnerships and expanding presence at B&M with amiibo, yet this has thus far been in support of selling packaged software. It has in no way replaced the effect of having shelves lined with game boxes.
Nintendo will not go digital-only and will ensure that games are (mostly) playable straight out of the box, because it ties into Iwata's philosophy that “Games should be...fun for everyone!” Not just people with a high speed internet connection and no data limit. Everyone. Furthermore, according to Nintendo's own data, digital downloads are highest in the Americas, but even here, they only account for ~13% of total software sales. Surely, some users would migrate to digital if forced, but Nintendo would be insane to take that risk!
On the handheld front, sticking with Game Cards makes more sense, especially if they decide to include 3DS BC. Nintendo's software business on 3DS has been fairly successful, and it makes sense to continue it while gradually incentivizing more and more users to go digital. Especially since Japan favors portables and also has the lowest rate of digital downloads relative to the regional total, sticking with game cards on the portable is a no-brainer. It also provides a bit of a perk to indie developers, who would have the option of selling their more successful offerings as packaged software, as we have seen happen since last gen with games like Journey and Walking Dead. This amount of in-store exposure is something that indie devs cannot get w/ Steam, Android, or iOS.
So that leaves us with the question of how they handle cross-play. To that, I don't have a perfect answer. Obviously, for digital downloads, there's no issue. With any physical format however, you run into the problem of, “What if the person sells their game?” Either you require the game in whatever system you're playing it on or there's some type of DRM requiring an internet connection (fan favorite). So maybe there's a game card slot in the controller of the home console and it's just there to serve as a “key” while the software really runs off the system's internal storage.
But for western third party games, Ubisoft is not going to want to cram their game into an expensive Game Card. Nor are they going to be able to scale it down enough so that it runs on the handheld. This is where it makes sense to include a disc drive. Western third parties thrive on consoles and for Nintendo to offer a worse deal than MS/Sony (expensive format or no in-store exposure) would be madness. This is why they need to keep a Blu-Ray Drive, at least for now.
They should absolutely be trying to convert more users to digital. The trick is they cannot undercut their retail partners and risk alienating them. They run the risk of this if they limit cross-play to digital versions. One step they could take is introducing Download Cards into U.S. retail the way they have done in Japan already. That way, retail is still involved in digital sales. Retailers make a lower margin on download cards, but there is no inventory risk, and thus they wouldn't be forced to throw cards in a bargain bin if they don't sell. Nintendo doesn't get paid until they get rung up. This could be one way for retailers to offer cross-play games without physical mediums and the resulting confusion.
Honestly, I don't know how far they will go with the shared library concept. Yes, Iwata cites Android and iOS, but he talks about a common way of programming and doesn't remark at all about software transfers—just the availability of software.
Cross-play makes a ton of sense for Virtual Console and many digital-only titles from indie-developers. Yet, Miyamoto was somewhat coy (and possibly pissed-off) when Stephen Totillo brought up the possibility of cross-play on Virtual Console games.
Earlier in that interview, Miyamoto did acknowledge that having a software title that runs on multiple devices was “an area of opportunity,” yet there were also challenges involved. Can Nintendo really sell a cross-play Mario Kart for $60 with the extra work it entails? Then there is the fact that some games simply won't be able to scale due to differences in RAM amount or CPU usage.
There are more reasons I think it best for Nintendo to stick w/ dual formats for the time being. Having a game appear in a physical format adds to the perceived value by the consumer. Iwata expressed his fears that once games are downloaded online, man consumers believe that they ought to be cheap or free, as seen w/ the ongoing decline in CD/DVD sales. If Nintendo are that concerned about heat/aesthetics, optical drives only draw a couple of watts and that it's possible to use one much smaller than Wii U's. These are but a couple other reasons, but I suppose I'll stop here for now.
First, let's look at how this would affect console developers. Using a game card or another type of flash memory would actually be raising the buy-in cost to develop a game for the home console, since flash costs more than BRD and digital is, of course, cheapest. If Activision wanted to port CoD or Nintendo somehow got EA back on board for Madden, those developers would be forced to either shell out top dollar for the biggest card size available or compress their games down to size, possibly cutting content or quality. At a time where the largest console developers are Western and have not been supporting your console, increasing the cost to publish on your platform would be a hilarious misstep.
If, as some have suggested, the Game Card would act as a license to download additional assets for the console, that would lead to a situation were certain games were unplayable out of the box or vastly downgraded from their true potential. This would be one step away from a digital-only console.
Speaking of which, there is the possibility of going digital only, but this has the possibility of doing irreparable damage to their relationships with retailers. Nintendo have shown an interest in increasing these partnerships and expanding presence at B&M with amiibo, yet this has thus far been in support of selling packaged software. It has in no way replaced the effect of having shelves lined with game boxes.
Nintendo will not go digital-only and will ensure that games are (mostly) playable straight out of the box, because it ties into Iwata's philosophy that “Games should be...fun for everyone!” Not just people with a high speed internet connection and no data limit. Everyone. Furthermore, according to Nintendo's own data, digital downloads are highest in the Americas, but even here, they only account for ~13% of total software sales. Surely, some users would migrate to digital if forced, but Nintendo would be insane to take that risk!
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/150217/04.html
On the handheld front, sticking with Game Cards makes more sense, especially if they decide to include 3DS BC. Nintendo's software business on 3DS has been fairly successful, and it makes sense to continue it while gradually incentivizing more and more users to go digital. Especially since Japan favors portables and also has the lowest rate of digital downloads relative to the regional total, sticking with game cards on the portable is a no-brainer. It also provides a bit of a perk to indie developers, who would have the option of selling their more successful offerings as packaged software, as we have seen happen since last gen with games like Journey and Walking Dead. This amount of in-store exposure is something that indie devs cannot get w/ Steam, Android, or iOS.
So that leaves us with the question of how they handle cross-play. To that, I don't have a perfect answer. Obviously, for digital downloads, there's no issue. With any physical format however, you run into the problem of, “What if the person sells their game?” Either you require the game in whatever system you're playing it on or there's some type of DRM requiring an internet connection (fan favorite). So maybe there's a game card slot in the controller of the home console and it's just there to serve as a “key” while the software really runs off the system's internal storage.
But for western third party games, Ubisoft is not going to want to cram their game into an expensive Game Card. Nor are they going to be able to scale it down enough so that it runs on the handheld. This is where it makes sense to include a disc drive. Western third parties thrive on consoles and for Nintendo to offer a worse deal than MS/Sony (expensive format or no in-store exposure) would be madness. This is why they need to keep a Blu-Ray Drive, at least for now.
They should absolutely be trying to convert more users to digital. The trick is they cannot undercut their retail partners and risk alienating them. They run the risk of this if they limit cross-play to digital versions. One step they could take is introducing Download Cards into U.S. retail the way they have done in Japan already. That way, retail is still involved in digital sales. Retailers make a lower margin on download cards, but there is no inventory risk, and thus they wouldn't be forced to throw cards in a bargain bin if they don't sell. Nintendo doesn't get paid until they get rung up. This could be one way for retailers to offer cross-play games without physical mediums and the resulting confusion.
Honestly, I don't know how far they will go with the shared library concept. Yes, Iwata cites Android and iOS, but he talks about a common way of programming and doesn't remark at all about software transfers—just the availability of software.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.htmlIwata said:
Cross-play makes a ton of sense for Virtual Console and many digital-only titles from indie-developers. Yet, Miyamoto was somewhat coy (and possibly pissed-off) when Stephen Totillo brought up the possibility of cross-play on Virtual Console games.
http://kotaku.com/miyamoto-can-imagine-nintendo-making-hybrid-console-han-1594989023Miyamoto said:
Earlier in that interview, Miyamoto did acknowledge that having a software title that runs on multiple devices was “an area of opportunity,” yet there were also challenges involved. Can Nintendo really sell a cross-play Mario Kart for $60 with the extra work it entails? Then there is the fact that some games simply won't be able to scale due to differences in RAM amount or CPU usage.
There are more reasons I think it best for Nintendo to stick w/ dual formats for the time being. Having a game appear in a physical format adds to the perceived value by the consumer. Iwata expressed his fears that once games are downloaded online, man consumers believe that they ought to be cheap or free, as seen w/ the ongoing decline in CD/DVD sales. If Nintendo are that concerned about heat/aesthetics, optical drives only draw a couple of watts and that it's possible to use one much smaller than Wii U's. These are but a couple other reasons, but I suppose I'll stop here for now.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I agree with the majority of your post, particularly the extra costs involved in shipping game cards (publishers buy them from Nintendo, rather than wholesale, Capcom wanted $50 for Resi Revelations because of the 4GB game card if I remember correctly), and how the Japanese market is different (physical music CD sales are actually going up over there) and Nintendo will definitely take it into consideration.
The bit I quote above though -- that's the point. Nintendo wants to make it as cheap and seamless as possible for development teams support all hardware on the platform, so they will be able to sell Mario Kart 9 once. Hence the "tangible results" that Iwata ended with.
The shared library thing is a great incentive for people to take a risk and buy more NX hardware than just the handheld or the console, too, if Nintendo continues to make a profit on hardware it's absolutely in their interest to shift more units of the things.
The extra work on MK9 to make it compatible either way would be a better investment than making two wholly standalone games in MK9 and MK10 as they did with MK7 and MK8.
Nintendo could focus more on DLC through the handheld/console generation if they released 1 Mario Kart game for both platforms
@Fourth Storm: Crossbuy/Crossplay isn't the only downside of using two different media formats. If the systems use the same format then the amount of shelf space and stock for each system doesn't matter because it's shared and here in the UK Nintendo needs all the shelf space it can get. Splatoon is the only Nintendo product my local Tesco stocks.
I also think having a game card slot in the controller is just raising costs and probably added uneeded bulk. Even if it's just for authentication it should be on the console itself.
Even if Nintendo were to go DD-only(I very much doubt they will) they could always have instore exposure through download cards which have super-low shipping/production costs and take a lot less space. Currently in the UK you buy download codes from GAME that are cheaper than eShop pricing so they're not even undercutting retailers.
I also think having a game card slot in the controller is just raising costs and probably added uneeded bulk. Even if it's just for authentication it should be on the console itself.
Even if Nintendo were to go DD-only(I very much doubt they will) they could always have instore exposure through download cards which have super-low shipping/production costs and take a lot less space. Currently in the UK you buy download codes from GAME that are cheaper than eShop pricing so they're not even undercutting retailers.
If they were to only sell physical copies of NX portable games for $40(cart only, no console version included) and $60(cart and download code for console version). And the NX cart acts as a license in the console. They could partner with retailers like Gamestop and Best Buy to have download stations where people, regardless of where they bought the game, could take their NX hard drive(it would need to be removable) and redeem their console version download code. Of course people that have good internet could still download from home.
You absolutely still don't get it at all...
So i gonna stop there, sorry. You're saying random things at that point that have no relation to the conversation we have..shared library would let both devices gain a library boost.
imagine if the WiiU had both Wii U and 3DS titles on its library. that's how much the Console NX would gain from the shared library. we could have console Pokemon by default since the new games (made for handheld) would also play on console.
imagine if the WiiU had both Wii U and 3DS titles on its library. that's how much the Console NX would gain from the shared library. we could have console Pokemon by default since the new games (made for handheld) would also play on console.
that is, if they just don't block certain games from playing on other devices...
madstarr12
Member
The only thing that suggests a shared library between devices would be Iwata's comparison to iOS and Android; however that's superficial. Iwata doesn't mention it specifically, only that there's a development environment that's similar enough to not have to start from scratch with development of games. When Iwata speaks of "absorbing Wii U architecture" for example, he means the tools for development. NX will start from a zero install base, but they won't be completely in the dark regarding development because everything they have worked on with Wii U development will transfer over. The whole "starting new" concept with development will now be a thing of the past, so games that will otherwise take a while to release will end up releasing without delay, like post-launch Wii U games that were meant to launch earlier but weren't due to developing in the dark so to speak.
They definitely can make the library shared with this setup, but it would be rather foolish to make every game like that. Miyamoto made a comment on how instead of making a game for each system, they could just make one that works with both. Not exactly sure how that equals a shared library. It's just that games they'd like to appear on both, like Mario vs DK Tipping Stars, would be able to be developed at once instead of separately. This game was developed separately due to the fact that the 3DS and Wii U were different. It's definitely an area of opportunity for them, instead of porting certain games or developing them seperately, they could just make the games playable on both, but I have yet to hear a statement that says it is so for ALL games. If every game was made for both, console games will be limited to whatever the handheld will be able to do (other than resolution differences and minor effects), and that goes against Nintendo's philosophy with home consoles vs handhelds, where there are experiences that can only be realized through a home console. Certainly they could make games that run on both; however they'll need to make them different enough to appeal to both systems they're running on, like Smash Bros. 4.
I'm pretty sure they'll not put their focus on the casual audience again. After their remarks regarding how casual players are, they'll likely target mainly core gamers. Whether that works or not is up in the air. One thing's for sure, they CANNOT make another extremely under-powered console aimed at the casual Wii audience.
This is one thing that puzzles me about the concepts of a shared library for NX. That will imply that the console version will always have to consider the limits of the handheld. Will Nintendo deliberately limit a games' potential because of the handhelds inability to run certain effects, physics or number of players? Sakurai kind of did with Ice Climbers, but Nintendo's a different story. The console version of Mario Kart NX may be able to handle 16 racers for example, but the handheld wouldn't be able to because of the lack of processing power. This means that in order to allow for the single game to be playable on any form factor, they'll need to limit console version enough so that it doesn't overwhelm the handheld version. I think it'll be for select games like their first cross-buy game Mario VS DK TP; simple enough to not compromise any version.
You make some good points, but there's a problem: if they go with discs now, they have to stick with them "forever", because the NX OS/architecture is here to stay and one of the key aspects of Nintendo's strategy seems to be that every new console must be compatible with every single NX game instead of starting over with every new gen. So unless they'll make something up if and when they'll go digital-only, at some point you'll have an "NX console" that won't be able to play older "NX games", because at some point, discs will have to disappear.
Another problem is that discs will require installations, and installations are bad for multiple reasons. One of them is particularly bad for Nintendo, and i'm obviously referring to the fact that modern games install a lot of data, so it's one thing to have 64/128GB of internal storage for indies, vc games, saves, dlc and the occasional game bought from the eShop, but if you throw in installations too, then 64/128GB are simply not enough and that's a problem because Nintendo needs to stick with flash memory, since internal HDDs bring even more cons that you know better than me. Yes, you can plug in an external drive, but having that as a "standard" is different from it being an option for those who like to buy games from the eShop.
Then there's also other stuff we already discussed, like the fact that the blu ray generates more heat and noise, costs more than a game card reader and being a moving part it drives up the failure rate. This is obviously a factor too, and it's kind of a big deal.
Cartridges would solve all these problems, and most games would fit perfectly in a 16 or 32GB game card. A 64GB option would be there too for over the top stuff, but it wouldn't be the standard this gen. Next gen, it will be cheaper.
Now think at that super small, super quiet, super cool, super reliable and super affordable box with zero moving parts and tell me you don't want it
Impossible for now. Aside from the fact that it's too expensive, it's probably too big and not power efficient enough for a handheld device.
I don't remember, but let's say this was the case: flash memory now is waaay cheaper than it was when RE:R came out. Something like the 5$ premium price now would be for the (very) occasional game that uses a 64GB game card.
Exactly, or games where the "lead platform" is the handheld like Monster Hunter. Then you can have it for VC stuff, indies, etc.
EDIT: about cross buy, can't they do something like "buy one version of the game, register it and you'll get a 50/75/100% discount on the other one"?
Fourth Storm
Member
Right, and I think there should and will be a shared library, just it's not going to be everything. It's not just horsepower, either. Games that use the presumed touchscreen on the handheld would need to be reconfigured for whatever control scheme Nintendo includes for the home console.
I know it's been discussed in the past, but I've got no breakdown of how much cost they save by making 2 distinct versions of 1 game rather than 2 similar games on different platforms. I also don't know how many people are double dipping currently on games like Mario Kart and Smash. I do have a feeling that they will basically make 2 Mario Kart 9s kinda like Smash 4, but even more similar, since they could use the same graphic style as 8 probably w/ the specs we're talking. Who knows how they'll price cross play on that, how many difficulties they run in making the 2 versions compatible (I hope!), and how many little or major differences they will decide to include for sake of differing hardwares?
Let's be honest most retailers have already given up on Nintendo.
I'd like to see a $200-250 DD box, with a proper digital sales system like Steam. The profile of a Nintendo console is likely to be one or two big games a year propped up with indies and smaller releases. If that's the case then digital, with preorder preload and the thing Sony does where you download a bit first to play while the rest is downloading would work. If you really want you could have an SD card slot and games could be sold on SD at a premium and those that want digital only can expand their storage.
Nintendo could even split their bigger games up into episodes or continuous free DLC, whatever makes more sense. Buy MK with less tracks at first and download as you go. That would also help split the development load up and increase release flow. Download Mario world by world. If the console is set up for it all large games could follow a similar style.
Digital only would be a bold move by Nintendo and they'd need help with things like the store, but I think it could pay off. Especially if it knocks $50 off the starting price.
No, they haven't..? Forget even America, the entire Japanese retail is there to consider, something currently being held up almost single-handedly by Nintendo's 3DS.
Not only would you run into a problem with no retail presence, but also the fact that not everyone has access to the internet. As I've said earlier, it's not unlike the issues the XB1 faced with always online & why said feature was eventually ditched.
madstarr12
Member
They could offer some sort of discount on the other version if you buy one of them. Though, I honestly think there will still be some differences that are enough to differentiate the handheld version with the console version. The console version won't just be the handheld version in 1080p with prettier effects, they'll likely not even use the exact same models (handheld version may use downgraded console models). The console version won't have the same courses as the handheld version, they'll be longer, and more complex while the handheld version will have shorter courses. The console version will allow for up to maybe 16 players, while the handheld version may only allow 8 or 10. They'll need to differentiate enough to allow for double dipping. While we don't know how many people double-dip, It'll be silly to say that they're non-existent. Pretty sure people who buy Mario Kart at launch (those who pre-order) are largely those who already bought the previous versions because they're fans of the series.
As for "saving" regarding the cost of developing games, I don't think the reduction of "cost" for development of games was a huge thing for Iwata. The main reason for integrating architectures was to avoid software droughts prior to launching a new system, whether they save money on developing games or not isn't such a huge deal. If it were, they would have never made the leap to HD development, which obviously meant an increase in development costs. They're also not interested in merely developing a larger number of games. Knowing this, I don't think developing one Mario Kart for both systems would be because they'll be able to make more games and save costs. While it's not a direct answer to the costs question, it is Iwata's stance on the number of games released and costs.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Nintendo is essentially a toy company, and even though I have speculated that they would be smart to do a DD only platform all evidence points to the contrary. Nintendo loves the simplicity of buying a game and popping it in for a play session. Nintendo has been inventing ways to stay in retail and physical goods. Nintendo wants to maintain the perceived value of their games. Nintendo's biggest region pulls only 15% via DD.
And if they stay with physical media AND want to have a single SKU per Mario Kart, cards are their only option. The big question is how close in price will pre-burned 32GB DS cards be compared to Blu-Rays in 2016-2017. Rewritable 32GB Micro SD cards begin at £5, so that's probably £3.50 wholesale. So, a pre-recorded one in two years will be, what, £1 wholesale? Not massively different from Blu-Ray mass production cost.
Amazingly, Moore's Law might make Carts the superior option once more.
And if they stay with physical media AND want to have a single SKU per Mario Kart, cards are their only option. The big question is how close in price will pre-burned 32GB DS cards be compared to Blu-Rays in 2016-2017. Rewritable 32GB Micro SD cards begin at £5, so that's probably £3.50 wholesale. So, a pre-recorded one in two years will be, what, £1 wholesale? Not massively different from Blu-Ray mass production cost.
Amazingly, Moore's Law might make Carts the superior option once more.
I know discs have a price and storage advantage, but as a consumer I really hope Nintendo goes with cards. Wii U disc drive is the noisiest thing in my living room. I'm OK with installs but I do miss the plug-and-play nature of carts. If Nintendo can swing 16-32 GB game cards that work on both the portable and console NX, I'd love it. It would be the Gameboy + Super Gameboy taken to the next level.
Interceptor
Banned
Yep. I am absolutely certain they will ditch the optical drive for a cartridge based solution. Optical drives are expensive and moving parts drive up the failure rate. They gain much more freedom on the actual design of the box as well. Manufacturing costs stay reasnoable all ll while offering a gimmick with competetive hardware.
It´s totally a big amiibo.
It'd have to be 32-64GB to keep up with Blu-Ray storage. Going for 16-32GB would end in a GameCube-esque situation.
Depends on development and release times I imagine, and how forward looking Nintendo is. USB-C is obscure now but should explode within the next year or two as devices/peripherals get updated with it (die micro USB die!). Course USB-A is still sticking around with the 3.1 gen 2 spec so it'll be interesting to see how that turns out on the desktop side of things.
(Assuming I have the right context here) I suspect they're all going that route, there's not much reason not to with what they've got established now (and presumably Nintendo next). It's something that could've theoretically been done before but no one ever really established an underlying OS layer to abstract the hardware, and the hardware itself has usually changed significantly between generations.
Course it's already been done successfully for decades on the computer side of the tech world (including mobile computing nowadays) so technically it's nothing new.
Links_fantasy
Junior Member
I would love to see a Nintendo & Sony console/ handheld era. Both have globally appealing franchises and to see Sony focus on home consoles and Nintendo on portables and home consoles. I don't like console wars but MS would be more profitable in the PC space, which Windows 10 basically is leading to anyway.
thegirlleastlikelyto
Member
Fourth Storm
Member
I agree and it's unlike Nintendo to make compromises like that. Tipping Stars is the type of game that isn't hindered. Mario Kart, Smash, 3D Mario, and more all would be.
Cost and manpower are two of the big reasons why Nintendo have struggled to support 2 systems even after the initial hardware launch shenanigans. Make no mistake, the integration of development environments is an effort to increase productivity per a given budget. The tools and time it takes to build each game from the ground up is quite costly indeed.
I agree they'll be offering special discounts and whatnot to people. Let's look at this practically. Western AAA are mostly looking at console level offerings. Discs are best for them. Indies are using digital distribution for the most part. Some Japanese devs (Capcom, Atlus, Sega, Namco) are still supporting the game card format, but even there, Nintendo has lost support since last gen w/ many Japanese devs not wanting to publish in the U.S. due to the risk involved. Some have gone digital only with their games. Also, the licensed game segment crashed, and now pretty much only LEGO remains on that front.
So maybe they do what some Blu-Rays do now and just include the digital copy with new versions of the disk/game card. Take the hit. Sure, people could take the download code and then sell the game, but Nintendo still got paid. The value of the discs w/out the codes would naturally drop, but Gamestop could still sell them to people who don't care about "always" having a game going forward. Or they can run special promotions that when you register a game w/ their new loyalty program, you get the digital version discounted or free.
There are perhaps some kinks needed to be ironed out in those solutions, but it still makes more sense than adapting a costly cartridge media.
You make some good points, but there's a problem: if they go with discs now, they have to stick with them "forever", because the NX OS/architecture is here to stay and one of the key aspects of Nintendo's strategy seems to be that every new console must be compatible with every single NX game instead of starting over with every new gen. So unless they'll make something up if and when they'll go digital-only, at some point you'll have an "NX console" that won't be able to play older "NX games", because at some point, discs will have to disappear.
Another problem is that discs will require installations, and installations are bad for multiple reasons. One of them is particularly bad for Nintendo, and i'm obviously referring to the fact that modern games install a lot of data, so it's one thing to have 64/128GB of internal storage for indies, vc games, saves, dlc and the occasional game bought from the eShop, but if you throw in installations too, then 64/128GB are simply not enough and that's a problem because Nintendo needs to stick with flash memory, since internal HDDs bring even more cons that you know better than me. Yes, you can plug in an external drive, but having that as a "standard" is different from it being an option for those who like to buy games from the eShop.
Then there's also other stuff we already discussed, like the fact that the blu ray generates more heat and noise, costs more than a game card reader and being a moving part it drives up the failure rate. This is obviously a factor too, and it's kind of a big deal.
Cartridges would solve all these problems, and most games would fit perfectly in a 16 or 32GB game card. A 64GB option would be there too for over the top stuff, but it wouldn't be the standard this gen. Next gen, it will be cheaper.
Now think at that super small, super quiet, super cool, super reliable and super affordable box with zero moving parts and tell me you don't want it
I think it would be cool, yeah, but overall a hasty and foolish business move for Nintendo. These theoretical 16GB-32GB game cards would need to be around for next year and I don't see that as economically feasible. Nintendo need to move away from the game card business, only sticking to it reluctantly because of things like the Japanese market and its slowness to transition to digital. Prices on that amount of flash are still high compared to blu-ray and the large fluctuation in prices would put Nintendo at risk. You can see the prices and daily fluctuation here: http://www.dramexchange.com/
The move is to digital and cloud. Third parties will support this, because their packaging/distribution is close to zero.
NX cartridges will face the same fate as optical media when digital becomes prevalent enough that they can finally drop packaged software. Do we really need to have games "forever" now though? In the past, games that you bought in a store could be played as long as the hardware worked. It didn't work on every system going forward. Even now, who's the say the current service providers will continue on for decades to come? Let's hope for a generation or 2 of BC maybe and see where we are. Maybe when Nintendo go digital only, they'll let you trade in your game for a code or something.
But the average consumer won't. As I've said numerous times, there's still people with limited access to the internet, people with data caps, people who can't get on the internet at all, & more scenarios that make a digital-only Nintendo console almost impossible for Nintendo to pull off without facing backlash similar to what Microsoft faced with the Xbox One. While granted, there may come a time where digital-only game consoles would be accepted, that day is not anytime soon.
Nostremitus
Member
Not to mention those parents who don't want their kids' systems connected to the internet.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
You gotta stop thinking about the NX as console only though as its certainly gonna have a handheld component.
Pokemaniac
Member
I think that the approach that they'll take will differ per game. Obviously smaller projects like Mario Vs DK as well as games that don't place a huge burden on the CPU like Fire Emblem could just be the same on both, so those are pretty simple. For more complex games, I suspect that they'll take one of a few courses of action:
1.) Take the Smash route. This would mean making sure the core content can work on both systems, but some modes would be console exclusive. So, in this case you'd have stuff like "8 player Smash only works on the console" or "There are extra mini games when you play Mario Party 11 on console".
2.) Just limit the game to what's possible on the handheld. I suspect Mario Kart will fall into this category. The game doesn't lend itself to pieces being sectioned off, but the game itself is simple enough that limiting it in this manner probably won't hugely compromise it.
3.) Make the handheld and console versions play similar, but not quite exactly the same. For single player games, it isn't always imperative that the two systems get exactly the same experience. The differences would have to be minor, like simpler AI or lowered enemy count, but this could maybe work for stuff like Hyrule Warriors. If they're willing to segregate the player base they could even do this for multiplayer stuff like a hypothetical Spla2n, by still allowing the game to run on the handheld, but with simpler ink physics. I expect that few games will take this approach, but it is an option.
4.) Just make the game console exclusive. Some games just wouldn't make sense to limit to the handheld specs. For example, I think few would take issue if a massive open world game like Xenoblade was console exclusive.
The exact approach would really have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. I don't think I'd worry too much about games being compromised to work on the handheld, though. Especially since the NX handheld probably won't be anywhere near as limiting as the 3DS is with its super weak CPU.
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