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[mrklaw]

Separate download codes don't work if they allow users to resell the other physical card and keep the console version.

Have a physical card for the handheld. The home console has a card slot and can play an uprezzed version of the handheld game using the same assets. If you plug in an external USB drive, you also have the option to download additional assets to improve texture quality and possibly models etc. You can't play these without the card in the slot (so if you sell it, you can't play it on the console).

Nintendo could provide built in storage, but by making the home console work directly with the handheld carts, they save money by not needing a large HDD built in and save by not needing an optical drive. Keeps the home console compact, cheaper to build, and solid state so easier to cost reduce over time (optical drives and mechanical HDDs have pretty much bottomed out and are fixed costs these days)

(I think if they went with an optical disc format for the home console they would need a HDD for caching, because the shared architecture with the solid state handheld would mean developers wouldn't want to work around load so the home system would need a large cache. If the home console can read the handheld carts directly that cache wouldn't be needed)

 

[ktynn]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here before or not, but considering the fact Nintendo wants to get into the mobile market, and probably wants cross compatibility between mobile / handheld / nx games. It seems most likely to me that the new handheld will get rid of the DS dual screen concept, because mobile games and console games (apart from some Wii U titles) are dedicated single screen experiences.

 

[orioto]

At the same time, a console that barely differentiates from a handheld/mobile counterpart is something that has yet to be successful. If there was actually a market for that, stuff like Vita TV or Ouya might have been more successful. It seems safer to have some kind of unique content.

Also, most Nintendo franchises that are on Wii U are currently a lot better on Wii U. NSMBU is much better than NSMB2, 3D World is much better than 3D Land. Smash Wii U, is much better than Smash 3DS, etc. You also have cases like Zelda, where the handheld and console entries are really two separate things. Plus there's a bunch of stuff that the 3DS either doesn't have, or only has ports of old games, like Splatoon, Pikmin, Donkey Kong Country, Xenoblade, Star Fox, and The Wonderful 101. The 3DS is good, but it's no Wii U replacement.

That is endless but see, when you say "a console that barely differentiates from a handheld.." that's your idea, not mine Mine doesn't differentiate, and that's where it falls in an other category. You, want a console that has its strength but lots of bridges with the portable, which i say creates the problem.

Also your WiiU/3ds comparison is not really fair. All those games that are not on 3ds, they could totally be if there was no WiiU. Pikmin, Splatoon etc.. And they will even more have their place there if the new portable has way better graphics, better resolution, and every buttons/sticks it needs. They decided to not have large scale Zelda on it, but they could have ported Wind Waker there and not on WiiU, except WiiU needed it. But it could have sold more on 3ds. Everything sells more on portable anyway, even Smash. Smash Bros being better en WiiU has to do with ergonomics. That is the main reason why a portable only solution is a problem, BUT that's why i say, let people plug a bluetooth classic controller on it, and a tv out, and your portable IS a home conosole. (With the possibility of a version with more power/battery that output to 720/1080p, basically an unwearable portable).

Anyway i don't think they'll do what i want and you'll probably win in the end, cause Nintendo... My thinking is just a little too forward thinking right now

But something that will be super bad. I see you wanting al those special cases, and retro compatibilities, and using old accessories.

That is SPECIFICALLY what destroys Nintendo. A fucking mess where every console should keep all the shits Nintendo made before. Things works when they are simple. When they revealed the WiiU i was saying, first day, that gamepad+wiimote idea was friggin' horrible. People here were trying to defend it, i remember well.

I think and i hope Nintendo understood they have to make everything clear and simple, even if that means dropping some things. You need to drop weight if you want to elevate!

 

[AmyS]

Yup, mobile tech has definitely gone a long way since the PS Vita was launched on the market. That being said, Tegra X1 performances are currently beyond what you can put in a handheld device considering heat/battery issues. I think something like the iPhone 6 GPU would be incredibly good for the new portable, and it's possible that they'll use it, but i'm being a bit more conservative and considering that to be the best case scenario. So if it happens i'll be super happy, if not i had my expectactions in check and won't be disappointed if the actual GPU is "reasonably" less powerful than that.

Spoiler

Of course if it's 64gflops i'm going to scream haha :'D

I think it's kinda interesting to realize that although PS VITA had impressive specs for the time it was announced and even when it was released, the underlying PowerVR architecture it employed (Series 5 / SGX) was almost becoming a bit outdated. In terms of when it must have been designed, SGX dates back around a half a decade before VITA was even announced.

some of the ImgTec PowerVR SGX press releases:

July 2005: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...er-graphics-family-for-wireless-applications/
April 2006: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...gies-licenses-powervr-sgx-to-nec-electronics/
June 2006: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...next-generation-graphics-technology-directly/
October 2006: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...leads-the-next-generation-of-mobile-graphics/
January 2007: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...ended-powervr-sgx-graphics-video-core-family/
September 2011: (Sony licences PowerVR SGX): http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...hnologies-powervr-graphics-ip-technologies-2/


So the Nintendo NX handheld (and the console) should at least have AMD GCN 1.2 architecture, but I'm hoping for GCN 2.0.

 

[TunaLover]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here before or not, but considering the fact Nintendo wants to get into the mobile market, and probably wants cross compatibility between mobile / handheld / nx games. It seems most likely to me that the new handheld will get rid of the DS dual screen concept, because mobile games and console games (apart from some Wii U titles) are dedicated single screen experiences.

I don't think (hope) that mobile hardware will hinge Nintendo's creativity, they always put software first and hardware around the gameplay idea. For instances I strongly believe that NX systems will support NFC from the get go, I don't see Nintendo excluding this feature for hw parity with mobile.

 

[foltzie1]

Separate download codes don't work if they allow users to resell the other physical card and keep the console version.

Have a physical card for the handheld. The home console has a card slot and can play an uprezzed version of the handheld game using the same assets. If you plug in an external USB drive, you also have the option to download additional assets to improve texture quality and possibly models etc. You can't play these without the card in the slot (so if you sell it, you can't play it on the console).

Nintendo could provide built in storage, but by making the home console work directly with the handheld carts, they save money by not needing a large HDD built in and save by not needing an optical drive. Keeps the home console compact, cheaper to build, and solid state so easier to cost reduce over time (optical drives and mechanical HDDs have pretty much bottomed out and are fixed costs these days)

(I think if they went with an optical disc format for the home console they would need a HDD for caching, because the shared architecture with the solid state handheld would mean developers wouldn't want to work around load so the home system would need a large cache. If the home console can read the handheld carts directly that cache wouldn't be needed)

That isn't a bad idea, the binary portion of most video games is relatively small compared to the graphical, video, and audio assets. So many game require patches anyway, might as well take advantage of some of the benefits.

I also would like to see a console make implement mSATA, those blade like drives from the Macbook series is shaped well for a console, if it needs to be replaceable, though 2.5 in would be cheaper for user replacement.

 

[Chittagong]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here before or not, but considering the fact Nintendo wants to get into the mobile market, and probably wants cross compatibility between mobile / handheld / nx games. It seems most likely to me that the new handheld will get rid of the DS dual screen concept, because mobile games and console games (apart from some Wii U titles) are dedicated single screen experiences.

I was actually thinking exactly the contrary. DS form factor is their most stable business for them, I would be surprised if they gambled on it now. More likely, in my opinion, is that the home controller resembles DS lower part. That would achieve cross compatibility, be cheaper than Wii U tablet and allow them to create novel experiences like Dragon Quest XI. My understanding is that they have a separate team for mobile-only experiences.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

allow them to create novel experiences like Dragon Quest XI.

Like the Dragon Quest XI intro.

No other part of that game needs dual screens.

 

[Chittagong]

Like the Dragon Quest XI intro.

No other part of that game needs dual screens.

Weird. I thought you could play the entire game either from the lower screen 2D map or upper screen 3D view.

 

[Mr Swine]

I was actually thinking exactly the contrary. DS form factor is their most stable business for them, I would be surprised if they gambled on it now. More likely, in my opinion, is that the home controller resembles DS lower part. That would achieve cross compatibility, be cheaper than Wii U tablet and allow them to create novel experiences like Dragon Quest XI. My understanding is that they have a separate team for mobile-only experiences.

But won't people think that it's a new DS if it has the same form factor even if it gets a new name? Also isn't it a lot cheaper to have 1 screen and new form factor than having 2 screens and has to use the clamp shell form factor since 2004?

If Nintendo wants to start new they sadly need to ditch the DS form factor

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I also would like to see a console make implement mSATA, those blade like drives from the Macbook series is shaped well for a console, if it needs to be replaceable, though 2.5 in would be cheaper for user replacement.

I'd be beyond surprised if Nintendo put an mSATA connection in the NX console. They'd probably just stick with USB 3.0.

 

[Escalario]

Weird. I thought you could play the entire game either from the lower screen 2D map or upper screen 3D view.

Nope. It was made specifically for the demo. In the full game, you have to chose what version you want to play.

 

[Chittagong]

But won't people think that it's a new DS if it has the same form factor even if it gets a new name? Also isn't it a lot cheaper to have 1 screen and new form factor than having 2 screens and has to use the clamp shell form factor since 2004?

If Nintendo wants to start new they sadly need to ditch the DS form factor

Consumers totally would see it as a new DS. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Nintendo handhelds have always had a gradual evolution. GB -> GBC -> GBA and DS -> 3DS

They could play the branding in a way that implies both a DS successor and cross compatibility.

Nintendo DX (portable)
Nintendo NX (n home)

 

[Pokemaniac]

That is endless but see, when you say "a console that barely differentiates from a handheld.." that's your idea, not mine Mine doesn't differentiate, and that's where it falls in an other category. You, want a console that has its strength but lots of bridges with the portable, which i say creates the problem.

Also your WiiU/3ds comparison is not really fair. All those games that are not on 3ds, they could totally be if there was no WiiU. Pikmin, Splatoon etc.. And they will even more have their place there if the new portable has way better graphics, better resolution, and every buttons/sticks it needs. They decided to not have large scale Zelda on it, but they could have ported Wind Waker there and not on WiiU, except WiiU needed it. But it could have sold more on 3ds. Everything sells more on portable anyway, even Smash. Smash Bros being better en WiiU has to do with ergonomics. That is the main reason why a portable only solution is a problem, BUT that's why i say, let people plug a bluetooth classic controller on it, and a tv out, and your portable IS a home conosole. (With the possibility of a version with more power/battery that output to 720/1080p, basically an unwearable portable).

Anyway i don't think they'll do what i want and you'll probably win in the end, cause Nintendo... My thinking is just a little too forward thinking right now

But something that will be super bad. I see you wanting al those special cases, and retro compatibilities, and using old accessories.

That is SPECIFICALLY what destroys Nintendo. A fucking mess where every console should keep all the shits Nintendo made before. Things works when they are simple. When they revealed the WiiU i was saying, first day, that gamepad+wiimote idea was friggin' horrible. People here were trying to defend it, i remember well.

I think and i hope Nintendo understood they have to make everything clear and simple, even if that means dropping some things. You need to drop weight if you want to elevate!

Re: barely differentiates vs doesn't differentiate, we're arguing semantics here. You say it doesn't differentiate because it plays the same games, I say it does differentiate because it plays them at a higher resolution, but really we're talking about the same thing.

If you think that Zelda Wii U, Xenoblade X, Pikmin 3, The Wonderful 101, and even probably Splatoon are possible on the 3DS in something that resembles their current form, then you are vastly overestimating the 3DS's capabilities. It's CPU is notably weaker than the GameCube (see Ice Climbers working in Melee, but not Smash 3DS), and the GPU, while close to the GameCube, is put at a significant disadvantage by having to support stereoscopic 3D (see 30fps Pokemon from Pokeballs in Smash 3DS vs 60fps ones in Melee)

Also, comparing Wii U game sales to 3DS game sales is hardly fair. Looking at what the equivalent games sold on the Wii, it's a safe assumption that Wii U game sales are hurting due to the console's install base alone, and would do much better on a more successful console.

Regarding controllers, I never said that older controllers had to be in focus in marketing, like they were with Wii U, but what's wrong with having some options for controllers. Traditional controls aren't the best for everything. Rather than dropping Wiimotes, it would be better to just quietly still support them, just like with GameCube controllers on the Wii.

I'm still not convinced that your overall vision of what NX should be could be successful. While it seems to cater to the handheld market fine, it seems to completely disregard the console market. It completely ignores what's been successful in the past, and it also gives Wii U owners little reason to upgrade. The Wii had something new to offer over the GameCube, with new controllers and online features, but your proposed console would offer little to no advantage over the Wii U. In fact, it would be less capable given the proposed lack of controller support and it would probably be perceived as an arbitrary wall between Wii U owners and new content. A console that can't be appealing completely on its own merit is not something that can be successful.

To put it another way, if the console that you propose was released completely on it's own, without the handheld counterpart, would it still be appealing enough to be successful? If you can't answer "yes" to that question, then making a console like that would be a bad idea.

 

[ec0ec0]

Very interesting speculation here. It's really cool and rare that we get to see internal strategy slides like the ones above.

aren't those just some of the slides that iwata used to use in the presentations wih investors? If so, we had already seen those as the presentations can be read online.

 

[lwilliams3]

I think it's kinda interesting to realize that although PS VITA had impressive specs for the time it was announced and even when it was released, the underlying PowerVR architecture it employed (Series 5 / SGX) was almost becoming a bit outdated. In terms of when it must have been designed, SGX dates back around a half a decade before VITA was even announced.

some of the ImgTec PowerVR SGX press releases:

July 2005: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...er-graphics-family-for-wireless-applications/
April 2006: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...gies-licenses-powervr-sgx-to-nec-electronics/
June 2006: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...next-generation-graphics-technology-directly/
October 2006: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...leads-the-next-generation-of-mobile-graphics/
January 2007: http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...ended-powervr-sgx-graphics-video-core-family/
September 2011: (Sony licences PowerVR SGX): http://imgtec.com/news/press-releas...hnologies-powervr-graphics-ip-technologies-2/


So the Nintendo NX handheld (and the console) should at least have AMD GCN 1.2 architecture, but I'm hoping for GCN 2.0.

What good mobile GPU from AMD are there at this moment? I know people has mentioned the canceled project "Skybridge", but is there anything else Nintendo may be interested in?

 

[Thraktor]

I think the new Carrizo based Puma+ cores will climb higher than 2ghz.

Even at 2.2Ghz, you're only looking at a 25% boost compared to XBO, possibly 35% with architectural improvements, but not really in the "fewer, more powerful cores" category. Four Zen cores would almost certainly fit that bill, and would probably offer significantly higher performance than eight Jaguar cores, but I don't know how feasible that would be, especially with the 14nm requirement.

Wouldn't HBM have the same issues with EOL, considering it was more of a proof of concept for the Fury X knowing they were going to HBM2? I think AMD would probably push them to go HBM2 if they go down that road, especially if we are thinking they might offer 14nm as an option. At this point, I was assuming Nintendo would stick with 28nm for the home console just because Nintendo. It's a mature technology that would likely meet their cost and performance guidelines.

When talking about HBM I wasn't really discriminating between first generation HBM, second generation HBM, etc. Besides, the differences between current HBM and second generation HBM (which people are calling HBM2, somewhat misleadingly) isn't the same as the difference, say, from DDR3 to DDR4. When new DDR standards come out, the actual interface between the processor and the memory changes, meaning you can't just plug DDR4 into a system designed for DDR3. However, with second generation HBM, they don't appear to be making any changes to the memory interface. Instead, they're using the term to describe the process shrink, which will allow them to push up the clock speeds and build taller memory stacks, hence increasing bandwidth and capacity.

What this means is that if Nintendo, hypothetically, used 4GB of first generation HBM in the NX, they should be able to replace it with second or third gen HBM in a later version of the console without any issues.

I am not at all confident that the NX is at such a point with Epic that they already have UE4 compliance and that Square-Enix is comfortable enough with where their progress to publicly pontificate on it.

I mean, if it is, great! They should also be working on getting KH3 on there. But just playing the odds, it really doesn't seem like Nintendo.

Assuming NX is launching November 2016 (which seems reasonable given the Dragon Quest announcement) we're currently 15 months from launch. Third parties like Epic would definitely have dev-kits with approximate performance levels by this point, and it doesn't take that long to put out a quick release of an engine on a new platform. (Optimising it is a different matter, but as long as it compiles it gives developers something to work with.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think both versions of DQXI could hit the NX.

Given that Nintendo's main selling point for the NX seems to be that you can play the same games across home console and handheld, it would be massively confusing to customers if one of the biggest launch titles was completely different between the home console and handheld version.

 

[TheXfactor]

Not sure where you get the idea it cost a lot of money or that it's much cheaper to have one screen versus two. One large screen is apt to cost the same or more as 2 little ones.

If Nintendo was making money on the ds from day 1 (which they were), then I imagine today with even cheaper and higher quality screens they could do just as well.

the ds was also weak in terms of power(amazing in terms of concept though at the time). I don't even remember the articles that stated it, but the 2ds was made flat because of the cost of the two screens. The one screen on the 2ds actually made it cost a whole lot cheaper to make.

 

[Roo]

Given that Nintendo's main selling point for the NX seems to be that you can play the same games across home console and handheld, it would be massively confusing to customers if one of the biggest launch titles was completely different between the home console and handheld version.

Marketing wise, it's definitely going to be interesting to see Nintendo nailing this concept successfully.
They failed miserably to get their point accross to costumers this entire gen with Wii U and to some extent with 3DS
Like trying to explain why 2+2=4 with an equation.

 

[Father_Brain]

The UE4 one would be very easy to scale to handheld or console, so long as the platform runs UE4.

I don't really understand how one can just assert this without having more of an idea of how the PS4 version is designed and how hard it's pushing the platform. Mobile being able to run the same middleware engines obviously helps with porting, but it doesn't magically make up for the vast disparities in processing power between PS4 and even high-end mobile SoCs.

I mean, Vita, iOS, and Android all run UE3, but no one is suggesting that Arkham Knight (or even Arkham City, for that matter) could be ported well to those platforms. Or look at Borderlands 2 on Vita for a real-world example.

 

[Vanillalite]

Sorry, I think there might be a language barrier that's keeping my point from coming across.

If Nintendo stops using physical media and only makes their games available via downloads, they'll be the first major console to be digital-only ("leading the charge"). I cannot picture Nintendo doing that before Sony and Microsoft. Having to download that much data is an issue for quite a few people.

That's a fair point, especially since Nintendo cites Apple as inspiration at every turn, but I'd argue that the scale makes it apples-to-oranges. How many 10-25 gig iPad games are there?

While 3rd parties don't seem to be able to do Nintendo's crazy file size even on the Wii U the big 3rd party games are under 20 gigs and most are 10.

You can't have handheld games using 20+ gigs though. It's just not a reality yet. Solid state space above 32 gigs gets fucking EXPENSIVE still. Even Nintendo buying in bulk volume if the system had 128 gigs stock would add a shit ton of cost to the system. Plus if games are like 20 gigs a piece you'd get like 5 games and that's it. Then sorry no more room.

This is why the handheld versions of stuff can't always be exact copies of the home console stuff. That being said Nintendo themselves are wizards at space. Stuff like Kart on the Wii U was less than 5 gigs.

 

[AmyS]

the ds was also weak in terms of power(amazing in terms of concept though at the time).

Indeed that's true. DS had lower textured polygon performance (120,000/s) than PS1 (180,000/s) and lacked N64's filtering/AA but the concept was pretty incredible. Another thing, each generation of Nintendo handheld has always made a large leap in graphics. Game Boy ---> GBA ---> DS ---> 3DS ---> [Handheld NX ??] not looking at each interim refresh (Game Boy Color, DSi and New 3DS).

 

[Nightbird]

Indeed that's true. DS had lower textured polygon performance (120,000/s) than PS1 (180,000/s) and lacked N64's filtering/AA but the concept was pretty incredible. Another thing, each generation of Nintendo handheld has always made a large leap in graphics. Game Boy ---> GBA ---> DS ---> 3DS ---> [Handheld NX ??] not looking at each interim refresh (Game Boy Color, DSi and New 3DS).

Question for the bolded Part.

How much can the 3DS push?

 

[jeffers]

surely must be someone here who's at least seen video game publishing costs around handheld cartridges?

 

[Vena]

I don't really understand how one can just assert this without having more of an idea of how the PS4 version is designed and how hard it's pushing the platform. Mobile being able to run the same middleware engines obviously helps with porting, but it doesn't magically make up for the vast disparities in processing power between PS4 and even high-end mobile SoCs.

I mean, Vita, iOS, and Android all run UE3, but no one is suggesting that Arkham Knight (or even Arkham City, for that matter) could be ported well to those platforms. Or look at Borderlands 2 on Vita for a real-world example.

Because porting a game built to the effective core of the 3DS means it is built specifically for the hardware with a hardware specific engine. DQXI on the PS4 isn't built for the PS4, its built on middleware that can have its source ported to PC or other hardware able to run UE4. The rest is asset and feature scaling to work with the throughput you have available.

No one is going to port AK to Vita, iOS, or Droid because those are bad software environments for the game. And just because you can port doesn't mean its simple or that you can't half ass it. But games are constantly getting ported up or down from PS3 to PS4 to Vita in Japan because it is necessary to keep afloat your software sales. Vita is in no way even comparable to the PS4, doesn't mean it can't run properly ported middleware-made software.

But that doesn't change the fact that porting a UE4 game is going to be easier to port than a game that was coded very specifically for the 3DS down to the letter.

I think the NX announcement of the DQXI totally stole the thunder from the other two platforms, lol. (Maybe this is why they walked it back, haha.)

 

[Father_Brain]

No one is going to port AK to Vita, iOS, or Droid because those are bad software environments for the game. And just because you can port doesn't mean its simple or that you can't half ass it. But games are constantly getting ported up or down from PS3 to PS4 to Vita in Japan because it is necessary to keep afloat your software sales. Vita is in no way even comparable to the PS4, doesn't mean it can't run properly ported middleware-made software.

...so are you saying that a technically (forget controls for the moment) competent port of AK could be produced on those platforms, and that BL2 Vita only sucked because it was half-assed and not because the game was designed for a much higher baseline of hardware performance than Vita is capable of? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.

The PS3/Vita and PS4/Vita games we're seeing from Japan (and Western indies) are not even close to AAA console titles in their level of graphical quality and performance demands. While they obviously indicate the advantages of a more conventional hardware architecture that 3DS lacks, they don't mean much of anything with respect to DQXI PS4 in particular; if FFXV or MGSV were coming to Vita, you'd have a stronger point.

 

[madstarr12]

About cartridges/discs, imho you guys are overthinking this. They'll want many games on both platforms, and they'll benefit a lot from not having to make two different versions of smash/mk/ecc while keeping them somehow different, but it's very unlikely that they'll shoot for that kind of total integration some are suggesting, where you basically choose if you want to play the same games on a portable screen wherever you want or on your tv with better graphics. They'll share many games, but you won't see Galaxy 3/open world Mario on the portable, and you won't get 2d rpg pokémon on the home. So if the home will have cartridges, that will happen because they offer better trade offs and are a smarter choice long term, not because you can put every single one of them in both consoles. Sure, it can happen with some games, and it would be a nice innovation for cross platform purchases, but that doesn't mean the two consoles will play the exact same games. The only thing that points in this direction is Iwata mentioning iOS, but that can be interpreted in many ways.

I honestly don't understand where people are getting the whole "every game is playable on any device" concept. Iwata talked of making assets transferable and sharing similar development environments, but not once did he say this meant that every game will be playable anywhere. To be honest, I wouldn't want that, because that will put a limit on the Console potential. Iwata had this philosophy that there are certain experiences that can only be reached by home consoles, having Handheld games playable on the Console goes against this strategy if those are the games playable on the Console. Can some games be cross-compatible? Sure, but don't expect most of their major games to be. I wouldn't want Spla2on's online play to be limited to only whatever the Handheld can handle. If the Console can handle 32 inklings while the Handheld can only handle 16, then keep them separate.

Regarding Iwata's mention of iOS, he only stated that between iOS and Android, there weren't any software droughts because there was this common way for developing on each device. Considering Iwata's words regarding "transferable assets", sounds to me like he's talking about porting to the Console from the Handheld and vice versa, rather than just being playable on any device from the start.

 

[Oregano]

...so are you saying that a technically (forget controls for the moment) competent port of AK could be produced on those platforms, and that BL2 Vita only sucked because it was half-assed and not because the game was designed for a much higher baseline of hardware performance than Vita is capable of? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.

The PS3/Vita and PS4/Vita games we're seeing from Japan (and Western indies) are not even close to AAA console titles in their level of graphical quality and performance demands. While they obviously indicate the advantages of a more conventional hardware architecture that 3DS lacks, they don't mean much of anything with respect to DQXI PS4 in particular; if FFXV or MGSV were coming to Vita, you'd have a stronger point.

All of Sony's Third Party Production ports have been terrible, even when going from PS3 to PS4. That's not to say it would have run/looked flawless if more effort was put in, it would still be a downport.

You also can't ignore the business realities. Is it worth porting FFXV and MGSV to Vita? Probably not. Is it worth porting DQXI to NX(Handheld)? Probably.

 

[Jigorath]

I think the NX announcement of the DQXI totally stole the thunder from the other two platforms, lol.

It clearly didn't considering all the people talking about playing the game on 3DS or PS4.

 

[Vena]

...so are you saying that a technically (forget controls for the moment) competent port of AK could be produced on those platforms, and that BL2 Vita only sucked because it was half-assed and not because the game was designed for a much higher baseline of hardware performance than Vita is capable of? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.

Borderlands 2? Had it been better optimized, in the same way that had Broken Age been better optimized, it would have run better. Graphical fidelity and features have to be toned back to allow for the Vita to handle what is thrown at it. But let's be real here, they put in as much effort into that as Ubisoft put into their port of W_Ds for the WiiU.

The PS3/Vita and PS4/Vita games we're seeing from Japan (and Western indies) are not even close to AAA console titles in their level of graphical quality and performance demands. While they obviously indicate the advantages of a more conventional hardware architecture that 3DS lacks, they don't mean much of anything with respect to DQXI PS4 in particular; if FFXV or MGSV were coming to Vita, you'd have a stronger point.

MGSV and FFXV have no need to come to Vita, they are not going to be left to flounder in Japan on the Playstation family, they'll be moving westward, so they don't need a Vita crutch (conversely, DQHII got a Vita addition... as it is a brand that will see the majority of its sales in Japan). Moreover FFXV is built on a crapshoot of an engine while MGSV is built on Fox Engine, which is not known for its downward scaling at all. So these are bad examples for multiple reasons.

 

[Jigorath]

I still think it's going to be the 3DS version ported to the next handheld.

 

[atbigelow]

Question for the bolded Part.

How much can the 3DS push?

From what I've read (but a more reputable source should put some better numbers in), the 3DS can crank out about the same geometry as the GameCube. Of course, there is a performance hit having to render that geometry twice for 3D (if the game bothers).

 

[orioto]

Re: barely differentiates vs doesn't differentiate, we're arguing semantics here. You say it doesn't differentiate because it plays the same games, I say it does differentiate because it plays them at a higher resolution, but really we're talking about the same thing.

If you think that Zelda Wii U, Xenoblade X, Pikmin 3, The Wonderful 101, and even probably Splatoon are possible on the 3DS in something that resembles their current form, then you are vastly overestimating the 3DS's capabilities. It's CPU is notably weaker than the GameCube (see Ice Climbers working in Melee, but not Smash 3DS), and the GPU, while close to the GameCube, is put at a significant disadvantage by having to support stereoscopic 3D (see 30fps Pokemon from Pokeballs in Smash 3DS vs 60fps ones in Melee)

Also, comparing Wii U game sales to 3DS game sales is hardly fair. Looking at what the equivalent games sold on the Wii, it's a safe assumption that Wii U game sales are hurting due to the console's install base alone, and would do much better on a more successful console.

Regarding controllers, I never said that older controllers had to be in focus in marketing, like they were with Wii U, but what's wrong with having some options for controllers. Traditional controls aren't the best for everything. Rather than dropping Wiimotes, it would be better to just quietly still support them, just like with GameCube controllers on the Wii.

I'm still not convinced that your overall vision of what NX should be could be successful. While it seems to cater to the handheld market fine, it seems to completely disregard the console market. It completely ignores what's been successful in the past, and it also gives Wii U owners little reason to upgrade. The Wii had something new to offer over the GameCube, with new controllers and online features, but your proposed console would offer little to no advantage over the Wii U. In fact, it would be less capable given the proposed lack of controller support and it would probably be perceived as an arbitrary wall between Wii U owners and new content. A console that can't be appealing completely on its own merit is not something that can be successful.

To put it another way, if the console that you propose was released completely on it's own, without the handheld counterpart, would it still be appealing enough to be successful? If you can't answer "yes" to that question, then making a console like that would be a bad idea.

The chat goes nowhere
You're still trying to prove me that a console like that wouldn't have reason to be a sucess on its own when i'm telling you it wouldn't be relevant in that model.. I'm telling you this would be just a mirror of the portable and you're telling me "but would it be a good consle if you remove the portable part".. it wouldn't exist then for chris sake

And yes you're right the problem here is some people can't accept that Nintendo = portable. And that indeed, to accept what i propose, you have to accept, somewhat, that there is no market for a Nintendo home console right now, as long as their portable offer is so rich.

And you're just stuborn with your answers. I didn't say splatoon would be the same on 3ds. I said a project like splatoon could have been done on 3ds, and it would be even more possible on their next portable. Their would be no comparison then and it would still be a good game with a big selling potential as new ip. Nintendo could also have dev a new 3D ambitious zelda on 3ds, and it will be even more doable on the next one.

You're trying to prove me Nintendo would offer less good games if there was no home console. i'm sorry but that isn't true at all.

A less powerful than WiiU portable being the only Nintendo option next gen would still get you tons and tons of awesome, pretty, fun and ambitious titles. You'll only have some people bitching "it's downgrade bouhou WiiU was more powerfull i want a PS4" while people who appreciate Nintendo games in their majority will be super amazed at most Nintendo ips making a 10yo jump in graphics. Cause that's what will happen, if their portable approaches WiiU versus the 3ds. That's the truth that you want to accept it or not. A portable is enough.

And i agree on having a bigger resolution for the home sku. What i don't agree on is having differentiations between the games.

 

[Wildean]

I honestly don't understand where people are getting the whole "every game is playable on any device" concept. Iwata talked of making assets transferable and sharing similar development environments, but not once did he say this meant that every game will be playable anywhere. To be honest, I wouldn't want that, because that will put a limit on the Console potential. Iwata had this philosophy that there are certain experiences that can only be reached by home consoles, having Handheld games playable on the Console goes against this strategy if those are the games playable on the Console. Can some games be cross-compatible? Sure, but don't expect most of their major games to be. I wouldn't want Spla2on's online play to be limited to only whatever the Handheld can handle. If the Console can handle 32 inklings while the Handheld can only handle 16, then keep them separate.

Regarding Iwata's mention of iOS, he only stated that between iOS and Android, there weren't any software droughts because there was this common way for developing on each device. Considering Iwata's words regarding "transferable assets", sounds to me like he's talking about porting to the Console from the Handheld and vice versa, rather than just being playable on any device from the start.

Yeah, I doubt it means the same OS playing same software on different devices. So I imagine mainline Pokémon games, for example, will remain exclusive to handheld. And given previous form, the controller setups could be quite different on both platforms (I don't doubt that the NX console will boast some successor to the Wii's motion control and Wii U GamePad, something that will be the USP for the new machine).

 

[Jigorath]

I honestly don't understand where people are getting the whole "every game is playable on any device" concept. Iwata talked of making assets transferable and sharing similar development environments, but not once did he say this meant that every game will be playable anywhere. To be honest, I wouldn't want that, because that will put a limit on the Console potential. Iwata had this philosophy that there are certain experiences that can only be reached by home consoles, having Handheld games playable on the Console goes against this strategy if those are the games playable on the Console. Can some games be cross-compatible? Sure, but don't expect most of their major games to be. I wouldn't want Spla2on's online play to be limited to only whatever the Handheld can handle. If the Console can handle 32 inklings while the Handheld can only handle 16, then keep them separate.

Regarding Iwata's mention of iOS, he only stated that between iOS and Android, there weren't any software droughts because there was this common way for developing on each device. Considering Iwata's words regarding "transferable assets", sounds to me like he's talking about porting to the Console from the Handheld and vice versa, rather than just being playable on any device from the start.

I haven't read anything substantial to suggest a shared library between the two systems. I think best case scenario is a PS4/Vita situation where porting between the two systems is simple enough that Nintendo uses it as way to convince Japanese devs and indies to develop for both. Of course, I don't know how that's going to help them sell in the West since you know AAA pubs aren't going to bother with it but that's a hurdle Nintendo will have to get over.

 

[Neoxon]

You guys think either version of the NX will use USB-C?

 

[AdanVC]

I just freaking hope they don't call NX, New Wii U..

 

[Oregano]

Yeah, I doubt it means the same OS playing same software on different devices. So I imagine mainline Pokémon games, for example, will remain exclusive to handheld. And given previous form, the controller setups could be quite different on both platforms (I don't doubt that the NX console will boast some successor to the Wii's motion control and Wii U GamePad, something that will be the USP for the new machine).

I'd point to the N3DS and Wii U Gamepad having the exact same inputs(minus clicky sticks on N3DS) as an indication that Nintendo has already homogenised their controllers.

 

[MCN]

I just had this weird dream where the NX details were revealed, thought I would post it here..

It was a really powerful console that retailed for $650. It was essentially a cross between a steam machine and a Nintendo console and was a joint venture between Nintendo and Blizzard lol.
It actually looked amazing, the OS looked super customisable and slick.

It was going to have a strong esports focus and most 3rd parties were on board. A lot of the engines were supported, and specifically named frostbite engine (???) And every console shipped with a copy of MGS: Ground Zero.

For the record, I have had little interest in MGS for maybe 15 years and never played a Blizzard game haha.

Where's that Fifth Element gif when I need it?

 

[Father_Brain]

Borderlands 2? Had it been better optimized, in the same way that had Broken Age been better optimized, it would have run better. Graphical fidelity and features have to be toned back to allow for the Vita to handle what is thrown at it. But let's be real here, they put in as much effort into that as Ubisoft put into their port of W_Ds for the WiiU.



MGSV and FFXV have no need to come to Vita, they are not going to be left to flounder in Japan on the Playstation family, they'll be moving westward, so they don't need a Vita crutch (conversely, DQHII got a Vita addition... as it is a brand that will see the majority of its sales in Japan). Moreover FFXV is built on a crapshoot of an engine while MGSV is built on Fox Engine, which is not known for its downward scaling at all. So these are bad examples for multiple reasons.

I don't know enough to say what specifically went on behind the scenes with BL2 Vita's development (though I really doubt it was a case of half-assing as opposed to developer reach exceeding hardware grasp - have you seen how much was already cut out visually?), but in any case, I'm not talking business rationales; I'm saying that some games simply can't be scaled down to current mobile hardware no matter how much you downgrade the visuals.

Maybe DQXI is one of those games and maybe it isn't (I lean more towards the former for now, obviously), but I don't think that should be a very controversial proposition to put forward.

 

[BronzeWolf]

You guys think either version of the NX will use USB-C?

Yes.

Nintendo has never shied away from obscure or even proprietary connector/charger ports

 

[atbigelow]

I really wish Nintendo would use USB-C for their next handheld. It's pretty much Apple vs. the rest of the entire world for charging cable standards.

 

[blu]

...so are you saying that a technically (forget controls for the moment) competent port of AK could be produced on those platforms, and that BL2 Vita only sucked because it was half-assed and not because the game was designed for a much higher baseline of hardware performance than Vita is capable of? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.

The PS3/Vita and PS4/Vita games we're seeing from Japan (and Western indies) are not even close to AAA console titles in their level of graphical quality and performance demands. While they obviously indicate the advantages of a more conventional hardware architecture that 3DS lacks, they don't mean much of anything with respect to DQXI PS4 in particular; if FFXV or MGSV were coming to Vita, you'd have a stronger point.

A title using a portable game engine is not a sufficient requirement for the portability of the title itself, but it's a darn good first step. The rest is designing the game assets and overall performance margins with portability in mind. Case in point: every PC game ever where the minimal and the optimal system requirements are a couple of generations of hardware apart.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

I haven't read anything substantial to suggest a shared library between the two systems.

In a Nikkei interview, Iwata said that currently, new generations of hardware need to "start from zero" as far as software libraries go when a "new game machine" is introduced.

Also:

"If the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler, this will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms."

A shared library is necessary in order to maintain the software lineup between hardware generations and smooth the transition. It also lines up with the comments about how Iwata said the number of form factors might actually increase from two next generation. By having a shared library Nintendo can effectively release far more than just one handheld and one console as the core systems.

 

[Jigorath]

Iwata saying that new generations of hardware don't need to "start from zero" as far as software libraries go suggests that when a new piece of NX hardware is introduced, it'll still play with all existing and upcoming software.

That basically means some form of backwards compatibility. I don't see how that amounts to the console and handheld sharing the same library.

 

[Neoxon]

That basically means some form of backwards compatibility. I don't see how that amounts to the console and handheld sharing the same library.

It could mean that they're trying to make it to where they don't have to try to make systems backwards compatible since all future hardware would use the same OS & architecture. The shared library would line up with Nintendo uniting their console & handheld development teams.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

That basically means some form of backwards compatibility. I don't see how that amounts to the console and handheld sharing the same library.

I edited my post a little. Basically, a shared library is required for Nintendo to be able to introduce new form factors. iPad was a risk for Apple, but it was still backwards compatible with all iPhone software until developers updated their apps and released iPad-specific optimisations that use all that extra screen space. iPad didn't have to start from zero, Apple tapped into the existing iOS userbase with it. Meanwhile, Wii U started from zero, and Nintendo gave Wii owners no clear path to it. The idea is Nintendo will introduce new hardware whilst allowing developers a cheap and easy way continue supporting the old hardware until its 5 year lifespan is up. Then users have a clear path to go from there.

Also, in an interview with Kotaku, Miyamoto said the following:

So, particularly with digital downloads now and the idea that you're downloading the right to play a game, that opens up the ability to have multiple platform digital downloads where you can download on one and download on another. Certainly from a development standpoint there is some challenge to it, because if you have two devices that have different specs and you're being told to design in a way that the game runs on both devices, then that can be challenging for the developer—but if you have a more unified development environment and you're able to make one game that runs on both systems instead of having to make a game for each system, that's an area of opportunity for us.

Sounds like a shared library to me. Miyamoto wouldn't call it an area of opportunity unless they were planning on doing something useful with it, both for developers *and* for users.

 

[Pokemaniac]

The chat goes nowhere
You're still trying to prove me that a console like that wouldn't have reason to be a sucess on its own when i'm telling you it wouldn't be relevant in that model.. I'm telling you this would be just a mirror of the portable and you're telling me "but would it be a good consle if you remove the portable part".. it wouldn't exist then for chris sake

And yes you're right the problem here is some people can't accept that Nintendo = portable. And that indeed, to accept what i propose, you have to accept, somewhat, that there is no market for a Nintendo home console right now, as long as their portable offer is so rich.

And you're just stuborn with your answers. I didn't say splatoon would be the same on 3ds. I said a project like splatoon could have been done on 3ds, and it would be even more possible on their next portable. Their would be no comparison then and it would still be a good game with a big selling potential as new ip. Nintendo could also have dev a new 3D ambitious zelda on 3ds, and it will be even more doable on the next one.

You're trying to prove me Nintendo would offer less good games if there was no home console. i'm sorry but that isn't true at all.

A less powerful than WiiU portable being the only Nintendo option next gen would still get you tons and tons of awesome, pretty, fun and ambitious titles. You'll only have some people bitching "it's downgrade bouhou WiiU was more powerfull i want a PS4" while people who appreciate Nintendo games in their majority will be super amazed at most Nintendo ips making a 10yo jump in graphics. Cause that's what will happen, if their portable approaches WiiU versus the 3ds. That's the truth that you want to accept it or not. A portable is enough.

And i agree on having a bigger resolution for the home sku. What i don't agree on is having differentiations between the games.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a large part of your argument seems to hinge on the assumption "Wii U wasn't successful, therefore Nintendo will never make another successful console."

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the biggest reason Wii U games aren't as successful as 3DS games is the fact that 3DS has been FAR more successful as a platform than Wii U has. If the Wii U itself was more successful, then it's games would sell a lot more.

You seem to be arguing the position that Nintendo shouldn't even try in the console space anymore. Why? Just because you fail at something once doesn't mean that you never try again.

Just like before with your "spec bump only every other generation" argument, you seem to be taking a single data point and extrapolating from there.

I haven't read anything substantial to suggest a shared library between the two systems. I think best case scenario is a PS4/Vita situation where porting between the two systems is simple enough that Nintendo uses it as way to convince Japanese devs and indies to develop for both. Of course, I don't know how that's going to help them sell in the West since you know AAA pubs aren't going to bother with it but that's a hurdle Nintendo will have to get over.

From here (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html)
emphasis mine

Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples.

 

[AmyS]

Question for the bolded Part.

How much can the 3DS push?

I don't think the clockspeed of 3DS's exact GPU is known, but baseline performance for the PICA 200 GPU is about ~15 million polygons with textures, effects, etc. Raw vertex performance is 40 million. Tech-GAF can correct me if I'm wrong. All depends on the number of GPU cores and clockspeed. btw, not talking about the number of ARM CPU cores, because that just doubled going from 3DS (dual core) to New 3DS (quad core).

 

[Pokemaniac]

Question for the bolded Part.

How much can the 3DS push?

What I've heard is that 3DS can push about the same number of polygons as the GameCube when it is in 2D mode, and 3D mode halves that.

I'm not the best source on the matter, though. You should get someone else to confirm it.