Support NeoGAF

[orioto]

I still think they could offer the gamecard and the disk in a package, that's pretty easy and the disk will cost nothing more anyway.

As for the size problem. I guess, nobody said the file should be the same for both consoles. It's not only about downgrading/upgrading the rez. Why not have two versions of the game with different textures.

That said i still think this little game of having both version of each game will be more trouble than benefit in the end.. If they can have a portable that is near WiiU visual quality, at least in surface, they should make it their only console.

And people forget about someting there. Nintendo has always (at least since GC) upgrade its graphics every 2 gens. Meaning one gen will be a reuse of assets from the past gen, or at least same kind of assets.

So, if they keep that habit, having a console with WiiU range of assets seems good for them. Hell they just upgraded and it was a massive effort, to produce MK8, Mario 3D world, and to create all those incredible models. I'd totally see them wanting to keep that level of things for an other generation.

i'll say it again, wanting "PS4 graphics" for nintendo games right now is a caprice from a minority of Nintendo fans. It's been said over and over that this upgrade will bring nothing to Nintendo in term of demographics.

Maybe just have a middle ground. Portable with two sku. But the home version, which is the same exact console, with a gamepad form factor, has a little more power and can output the same 540p games in 720p on tv, to make everyone happy.

 

[Instro]

Wait, are people talking about using game cards for the console?

I'd like to see something like:

- Game cards for handheld, discs for console.
- Console might also be able to take game cards in and play upressed versions of the same game natively. But it could also just be you buy the game, associate it with your account, and then can download either the "Console version" or the "Handheld version" to your two devices.
- Handheld targets 540p at visual fidelity roughly in the ballpark of the WiiU (maybe a bit less), console targets 1080p at PS4+ level.
- Handheld designed to do low latency streaming from console when you're physically in close proximity, or higher latency network streaming over long distances / the internet.

I'm also expecting that my hopes are far too high and I won't get something nearly this good.

All sounds nice. If only.

 

[z0m3le]

Nintendo investing in the console's physical media being different just costs way too much and pushes the platforms apart with little benefit, remember the handheld will carry the console to success, not the other way around.

Yes game cards cost more than discs however the handheld will be using game cards so it is just added costs especially when digital will recover some of the costs of game cards as they grow more and more prominent.

 

[Clefargle]

And those games are at 720p. Imagine trying to store 1080p textures as well as more detailed environments.

Couldn't they just do a mandatory download pack like the optional performance one for Xenoblade X?

 

[lwilliams3]

I still think they could offer the gamecard and the disk in a package, that's pretty easy and the disk will cost nothing more anyway.

As for the size problem. I guess, nobody said the file should be the same for both consoles. It's not only about downgrading/upgrading the rez. Why not have two versions of the game with different textures.

That said i still think this little game of having both version of each game will be more trouble than benefit in the end.. If they can have a portable that is near WiiU visual quality, at least in surface, they should make it their only console.

And people forget about someting there. Nintendo has always (at least since GC) upgrade its graphics every 2 gens. Meaning one gen will be a reuse of assets from the past gen, or at least same kind of assets.

So, if they keep that habit, having a console with WiiU range of assets seems good for them. Hell they just upgraded and it was a massive effort, to produce MK8, Mario 3D world, and to create all those incredible models. I'd totally see them wanting to keep that level of things for an other generation.

i'll say it again, wanting "PS4 graphics" for nintendo games right now is a caprice from a minority of Nintendo fans. It's been said over and over that this upgrade will bring nothing to Nintendo in term of demographics.

Maybe just have a middle ground. Portable with two sku. But the home version, which is the same exact console, with a gamepad form factor, has a little more power and can output the same 540p games in 720p on tv, to make everyone happy.

About having two versions of the same game on file: smaller cards are less expensive than bigger ones, so that may/will encourage developers to gimp the console version to save a little money.

"And people forget about someting there. Nintendo has always (at least since GC) upgrade its graphics every 2 gens. "

Since that only happened once (GCN -> Wii) and we don't know what the NX will be, you can't label that as a pattern yet.

 

[z0m3le]

Couldn't they just do a mandatory download pack like the optional performance one for Xenoblade X?

Yep, dozens of answers. People just haven't grasp on the idea that discs are on the way out and might not even be part of ps5, can you imagine installing a 100gb game and how long it will take? Because Blu-ray just isn't fast enough to run off disc anymore with is why everyone is installing their games before they can play.

 

[Overside]

Couldn't they just do a mandatory download pack like the optional performance one for Xenoblade X?

Im still trying to imagine what 1080p textures are

The one for Xenoblade X isnt mandatory, just highly advisable, as it makes a huge improvement towards how long it takes to stream in high lod assets, and load between the mech select location and menus that have gear previews and stuff.


That is an option, but I dont think its one they will want to persue.... Unless,of course, the NX ends up having terrabyte hdd's standard or something.

Yep, dozens of answers. People just haven't grasp on the idea that discs are on the way out and might not even be part of ps5, can you imagine installing a 100gb game and how long it will take? Because Blu-ray just isn't fast enough to run off disc anymore with is why everyone is installing their games before they can play.

I for one am ready to accept the return of our cartridge overlords.

 

[orioto]

About having two versions of the same game on file: smaller cards are less expensive than bigger ones, so that may/will encourage developers to gimp the console version to save a little money.



Since that only happened once (GCN -> Wii) and we don't know what the NX will be, you can't label that as a pattern yet.

I wasn't clear sorry i mean two different files for each game, one for the portable and one for the home console.

About graphic updates, it's been done once indeed but i can also say it's been 14 years since Nintendo didn't use a graphic generation only 4-5 years before updating it.

92-96
96-2001
2001-2012

You can be sure the base asset quality they have in WiiU games is there to stay a while, and you know what, it'll be super fine! (Even if they indeed have PS4 power at some point, they'll boost light, effects, iq, shaders and those models will look pixarish...)

 

[AniHawk]

i really have a hard time understanding how they make two different cases with different manuals and such for two versions of the same game. i know it happens with vita/ps3/ps4, etc, but each publisher has to be aware of the minimum order quantity for that, which might be around twice as much in order to guarantee a game might be published versus simply having one medium to worry about.

space is the biggest issue, and i think that might be mitigated through games simply costing more as a 'handheld' game but less as a console game. so maybe every nx game is $49.99 with the idea that the handheld userbase will be accepting of it.

the problem is that you might only be making $15-20 off each game depending on how much space needs to be used and what your role as a publisher is. if you have your own distribution line, that's great. if you're a smaller company, it becomes a bit harder.

while the download idea might work. each game could come with a license or code so that you could always play whatever physical version of the game you own on whichever platform you have, but the code is the only digital copy you get from that new version. keeps used sales and rentals possible while making sure people couldn't exploit the system for free games galore.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Xbox One tried & got crucified for it. Plus you have to account for those with limited access to the Internet.

Not that I necessarily think Nintendo would go digital distribution only (yet), but, that is actually a slightly different situation to the Xbone. Part of the reason that there was so much outrage over the Xbone is the fact that they were still selling discs, but treating those discs the same as digital copies. An console that's actually digital distribution only wouldn't have discs at all. For example the PSP Go fits this category.

Like I said, though, I don't think Nintendo will go full digital this time around. Current Internet infrastructure just isn't able to support this just yet.

Wait, are people talking about using game cards for the console?

I'd like to see something like:

- Game cards for handheld, discs for console.
- Console might also be able to take game cards in and play upressed versions of the same game natively. But it could also just be you buy the game, associate it with your account, and then can download either the "Console version" or the "Handheld version" to your two devices.
- Handheld targets 540p at visual fidelity roughly in the ballpark of the WiiU (maybe a bit less), console targets 1080p at PS4+ level.
- Handheld designed to do low latency streaming from console when you're physically in close proximity, or higher latency network streaming over long distances / the internet.

I'm also expecting that my hopes are far too high and I won't get something nearly this good.

I don't think this is completely unreasonable, but I think that Nintendo may try to get a solution where they only produce one media which you use on both systems. That would better align with their stated philosophy with NX of trying to move to account oriented relationships with their customers.

I still think they could offer the gamecard and the disk in a package, that's pretty easy and the disk will cost nothing more anyway.

As for the size problem. I guess, nobody said the file should be the same for both consoles. It's not only about downgrading/upgrading the rez. Why not have two versions of the game with different textures.

That said i still think this little game of having both version of each game will be more trouble than benefit in the end.. If they can have a portable that is near WiiU visual quality, at least in surface, they should make it their only console.

And people forget about someting there. Nintendo has always (at least since GC) upgrade its graphics every 2 gens. Meaning one gen will be a reuse of assets from the past gen, or at least same kind of assets.

So, if they keep that habit, having a console with WiiU range of assets seems good for them. Hell they just upgraded and it was a massive effort, to produce MK8, Mario 3D world, and to create all those incredible models. I'd totally see them wanting to keep that level of things for an other generation.

i'll say it again, wanting "PS4 graphics" for nintendo games right now is a caprice from a minority of Nintendo fans. It's been said over and over that this upgrade will bring nothing to Nintendo in term of demographics.

Maybe just have a middle ground. Portable with two sku. But the home version, which is the same exact console, with a gamepad form factor, has a little more power and can output the same 540p games in 720p on tv, to make everyone happy.

The bolded is a very bad read of the situation. Out of the 4 handhelds and 6 consoles, the pattern that you describe has occurred once, with the transition from GameCube to Wii. If you want to argue that the NX console won't be significantly more powerful than the Wii U, then you'll have to find a more solid premise to argue from.

On a related note, I generally think that it is highly unlikely that the console will just play the handheld games in 720p. Firstly, if they were going to do that route, they should at least go the extra little bit to get 1080p, since the box that you describe would be ridiculously cheap and low power to begin with.

Secondly, the console would have way more appeal if it had a lot more of an advantage over the handheld. "Play your handheld games in HD" isn't a great hook. "Play your handheld games in HD with upgraded assets" starts to sound a bit better. "play your handheld games in HD with upgraded assets, in addition to exclusive console games that wouldn't be possible on the handheld" sounds like something that people might actually buy. The best part is, the console power level can serve as the base for the next handheld.

 

[orioto]

The bolded is a very bad read of the situation. Out of the 4 handhelds and 6 consoles, the pattern that you describe has occurred once, with the transition from GameCube to Wii. If you want to argue that the NX console won't be significantly more powerful than the Wii U, then you'll have to find a more solid premise to argue from.

I answered that already. But yeah that's not true. handhelds consoles doesn't count in that matter cause the problem of upgrading assets doesn't apply. They are terribly late in general and have been since the nds. Nintendo defined a certain quality with WiiU and will stick with it for some years, regarding character models at least.

On a related note, I generally think that it is highly unlikely that the console will just play the handheld games in 720p. Firstly, if they were going to do that route, they should at least go the extra little bit to get 1080p, since the box that you describe would be ridiculously cheap and low power to begin with.

Secondly, the console would have way more appeal if it had a lot more of an advantage over the handheld. "Play your handheld games in HD" isn't a great hook. "Play your handheld games in HD with upgraded assets" starts to sound a bit better. "play your handheld games in HD with upgraded assets, in addition to exclusive console games that wouldn't be possible on the handheld" sounds like something that people might actually buy. The best part is, the console power level can serve as the base for the next handheld.

Wrong. People never really undertsand the idea of the home console not being its own market. You think as if it needed to be successful and has its own games to exist. Yet if you do that it's a self sufficient console, and it's the same problem as the WiiU. Meaning there is no market for it. What you don't see is... If that home console is just an sku of the portable, it doesn't need to be successful to exist. It's just an option, and will never lack support or games, cause it's a shadow of the portable system.

To make myself more clear. What are you worried about for exemple. Let's take an exemple. Some dev wants to make a game on the home console, but will the market be big enough for it ? But if that home console has nothing independently, that problem disappears. it doesn't need to have its own market. There is nothing to do to port a game from portable to home, there is no extra costs, no risks, nothing.

I know the real problem for people is that they have that fantasy of AAA next gen experience on nintendo consoles, which will bring zero things to Nintendo, at all, and will not happen. mark my word, Ubisoft will be more motivated to make a portable downgrade of Assassin's creed for a huge market, with lots of mainstream kids, than porting their game to a Nintendo powerful home console with a small market of Nintendo fans.

 

[Clefargle]

Yep, dozens of answers. People just haven't grasp on the idea that discs are on the way out and might not even be part of ps5, can you imagine installing a 100gb game and how long it will take? Because Blu-ray just isn't fast enough to run off disc anymore with is why everyone is installing their games before they can play.

I hope that physical media does eventually, but I do like the option for removable media like SD cards or embedded flash like Amiibo or the Wii U. If we get a cross platform system I hope we can use SD cards interchangeably between systems.

Im still trying to imagine what 1080p textures are

The one for Xenoblade X isnt mandatory, just highly advisable, as it makes a huge improvement towards how long it takes to stream in high lod assets, and load between the mech select location and menus that have gear previews and stuff.


That is an option, but I dont think its one they will want to persue.... Unless,of course, the NX ends up having terrabyte hdd's standard or something.



I for one am ready to accept the return of our cartridge overlords.

I'm ok with cartridges over discs if we use physical media. I guess I am probably being to hopeful for internal storage on the NX. Probably will be less than 500 GB at launch with optional extrnal support like the Wii U (maybe it will be USB 3.0) and SD micro card support.

 

[lwilliams3]

I wasn't clear sorry i mean two different files for each game, one for the portable and one for the home console.

About graphic updates, it's been done once indeed but i can also say it's been 14 years since Nintendo didn't use a graphic generation only 4-5 years before updating it.

92-96
96-2001
2001-2012

You can be sure the base asset quality they have in WiiU games is there to stay a while, and you know what, it'll be super fine! (Even if they indeed have PS4 power at some point, they'll boost light, effects, iq, shaders and those models will look pixarish...)

The whole industry is generally going for the route of being able to reuse previous assets. That's one reason why we are seeing so many remakes and last-gen remasters. It's also appears to be one of the core features of the NX: for portable and console Nintendo systems to share assets a lot better. This is different than saying that Nintendo only upgrade their console graphics every two gens. With games like Mario Galaxy, some would argue that there was a relatively small but notable graphic upgrade from GCN and Wii.

 

[z0m3le]

Wrong. People never really undertsand the idea of the home console not being its own market. You think as if it needed to be successful and has its own games to exist. Yet if you do that it's a self sufficient console, and it's the same problem as the WiiU. Meaning there is no market for it. What you don't see is... If that home console is just an sku of the portable, it doesn't need to be successful to exist. It's just an option, and will never lack support or games, cause it's a shadow of the portable system.

To make myself more clear. What are you worried about for exemple. Let's take an exemple. Some dev wants to make a game on the home console, but will the market be big enough for it ? But if that home console has nothing independently, that problem disappears. it doesn't need to have its own market. There is nothing to do to port a game from portable to home, there is no extra costs, no risks, nothing.

I know the real problem for people is that they have that fantasy of AAA next gen experience on nintendo consoles, which will bring zero things to Nintendo, at all, and will not happen. mark my word, Ubisoft will be more motivated to make a portable downgrade of Assassin's creed for a huge market, with lots of mainstream kids, than porting their game to a Nintendo powerful home console with a small market of Nintendo fans.

Exactly this. The individual formfactor doesn't matter, sales numbers and developer interest will be the platform or nx ecosystem and have nothing to do with individual device sales.

 

[Overside]

I hope that physical media does eventually, but I do like the option for removable media like SD cards or embedded flash like Amiibo or the Wii U. If we get a cross platform system I hope we can use SD cards interchangeably between systems.



I'm ok with cartridges over discs if we use physical media. I guess I am probably being to hopeful for internal storage on the NX. Probably will be less than 500 GB at launch with optional extrnal support like the Wii U (maybe it will be USB 3.0) and SD micro card support.

My main concern with optical discs is that they just dont last very long.

I actually lost a couple discs from age, about 5-10 years of being owned, even ps2 dvd's, lost to age, I have since began storing them in airtight controlled containers, and rotating games out to be on display in my game cabinet....

But I havent had any problems with any of my cartridges beyond save batteries dying.

 

[orioto]

Exactly this. The individual formfactor doesn't matter, sales numbers and developer interest will be the platform or nx ecosystem and have nothing to do with individual device sales.

Exactly and i'll add something in the other way, that is my real fear.

Let's say you make the Home console half independant with some exclusive games, and the portable the same. Let's say for exemple Pokemon stays only portable and Main Zelda only Home.

Then you have a reallllly risky and ambiguous situation there. Cause that home exclusive game now needs the home console to have its market, to exist. Let's remember (even if not everyone agrees) that the WiiU is mainly a failure, cause there is a saturation, nowadays. Almost every Nintendo ips has its most popular version on Portable. If you love Nintendo games, MK, even smash bros, Mario, Animal crossing, Pokemon, Fire emblem... etc etc.. you're fiiine with a portable. So the home console is seen as not bringing anything more, as being redundant.
I think this half independant home console with 70% of its catalog being the same as the portable, will be seen as even weaker! So it cannot be half independent. It has to be something unique and different OR a shadow that exists only as a sku.

Nintendo has suffered a LOT in the past, and the WiiU is the result of that exactly, from doing things half way, ending not doing anything at all. WiiU was the result of keeping a family, mainstream concept, while seducing the hardcore. it had none of them in the end.

If they don't move forward and pick a place in between, they'll fail hard.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I answered that already. But yeah that's not true. handhelds consoles doesn't count in that matter cause the problem of upgrading assets doesn't apply. They are terribly late in general and have been since the nds. Nintendo defined a certain quality with WiiU and will stick with it for some years, regarding character models at least.



Wrong. People never really undertsand the idea of the home console not being its own market. You think as if it needed to be successful and has its own games to exist. Yet if you do that it's a self sufficient console, and it's the same problem as the WiiU. Meaning there is no market for it. What you don't see is... If that home console is just an sku of the portable, it doesn't need to be successful to exist. It's just an option, and will never lack support or games, cause it's a shadow of the portable system.

I saw your explanation. Excluding handhelds still doesn't change the fact that you're extrapolating from a single data point. Wii made sense at the time, because Nintendo saw Sony and Microsoft spending tons and tons of money on a spec war, made the reasonable decision that they wanted no part of that, and just made a console that was a small but meaningful boost over the GameCube (which was pretty powerful for it's time). It makes no sense to do that for NX, because 1.) Sony and Microsoft seem to have both realized that they wasted a stupid amount of money last gen, and have built machines that are much more modest compared to their predecessors, and 2.) The base that Nintendo has right now with the Wii U was somewhat outdated to begin with (unlike the GameCube). If they were to pull the Wii Strategy again, they'd end up with a system that would probably be outclassed by higher-end mobile hardware within a year or so of release, if it isn't already outclassed by the time that it releases. A Wii U level console released in 2016 would fill a similar niche to an Android microconsole, something that the market is thoroughly rejected. It really doesn't make sense for Nintendo to not at least get themselves in the same ballpark as the PS4 and Xbone.

Besides, even if the difference was small, Wii games from Nintendo generally looked noticeably better than GameCube games from Nintendo.

As to your other point, I think you are misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying the console needs to be completely its own entity. What I am saying is that forcing perfect symmetry between the console and handheld libraries would be a pointless exercise that only ends in the console not being able to stand on it's own merits. It also means that large portions of Nintendo's back catalog wouldn't be available, since, for example, a lot of Wii games would be completely unplayable on the handheld due to the ways that they used the Wiimote. What I'm suggesting is a similar system to iOS, where you have phone apps, hybrid apps, and tablet apps. Except replace phone with handheld and tablet with console. Handheld games, would be built mainly targeting the handheld, but still run at on the console at a higher resolution. Hybrid games would be built for both, offering enhanced graphics and, in some cases, extra features on the console. Console games would only run on the console and take advantage of the console's extra power as well as peripherals that wouldn't work with a handheld. Most games would fall into the hybrid category, while the handheld category would be stuff like Pokemon, smaller indies, and probably some Japanese developers, while the console games will be stuff like Xenoblade, larger Zelda titles, and any western AAAs that feel like joining the party and aren't scalable enough to run on the handheld (Ubisoft and Activision will try anything once).

With this setup, you get a handheld and a console that can both stand on their own merits, while still being essentially the same system from a development standpoint.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

If they do a physical crossbuy game, can't they just do a NX console disc with a NX handheld download code? The disc would be cheaper to produce and the handheld download probably would be smaller.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Exactly and i'll add something in the other way, that is my real fear.

Let's say you make the Home console half independant with some exclusive games, and the portable the same. Let's say for exemple Pokemon stays only portable and Main Zelda only Home.

Then you have a reallllly risky and ambiguous situation there. Cause that home exclusive game now needs the home console to have its market, to exist. Let's remember (even if not everyone agrees) that the WiiU is mainly a failure, cause there is a saturation, nowadays. Almost every Nintendo ips has its most popular version on Portable. If you love Nintendo games, MK, even smash bros, Mario, Animal crossing, Pokemon, Fire emblem... etc etc.. you're fiiine with a portable. So the home console is seen as not bringing anything more, as being redundant.
I think this half independant home console with 70% of its catalog being the same as the portable, will be seen as even weaker! So it cannot be half independent. It has to be something unique and different OR a shadow that exists only as a sku.

Nintendo has suffered a LOT in the past, and the WiiU is the result of that exactly, from doing things half way, ending not doing anything at all. WiiU was the result of keeping a family, mainstream concept, while seducing the hardcore. it had none of them in the end.

If they don't move forward and pick a place in between, they'll fail hard.

At the same time, a console that barely differentiates from a handheld/mobile counterpart is something that has yet to be successful. If there was actually a market for that, stuff like Vita TV or Ouya might have been more successful. It seems safer to have some kind of unique content.

Also, most Nintendo franchises that are on Wii U are currently a lot better on Wii U. NSMBU is much better than NSMB2, 3D World is much better than 3D Land. Smash Wii U, is much better than Smash 3DS, etc. You also have cases like Zelda, where the handheld and console entries are really two separate things. Plus there's a bunch of stuff that the 3DS either doesn't have, or only has ports of old games, like Splatoon, Pikmin, Donkey Kong Country, Xenoblade, Star Fox, and The Wonderful 101. The 3DS is good, but it's no Wii U replacement.

If they do a physical crossbuy game, can't they just do a NX console disc with a NX handheld download code? The disc would be cheaper to produce and the handheld download probably would be smaller.

The problem in that situation is that the handheld would be left without physical media.

 

[Adam Tyner]

If they do a physical crossbuy game, can't they just do a NX console disc with a NX handheld download code? The disc would be cheaper to produce and the handheld download probably would be smaller.

That's technically a very valid option. If I were Nintendo, though, I'd be afraid that'd make the handheld -- their biggest market -- look like second-class citizens by comparison.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I am still not convinced it will be a shared library rather than it simply being easier to make games that can share structures.

 

[Socordia]

I am still not convinced it will be a shared library rather than it simply being easier to make games that can share structures.

I thought they only talked about shared development anyways?

 

[Pokemaniac]

I am still not convinced it will be a shared library rather than it simply being easier to make games that can share structures.

If it wasn't going to be an at least mostly shared library, than why would they talk about wanting to move to having an account based relationship with their consumers rather than a hardware one?

 

[Socordia]

If it wasn't going to be an at least mostly shared library, than why would they talk about wanting to move to having an account based relationship with their consumers rather than a hardware one?

To make it easy to sell yearly revisions?

 

[ugoo18]

The problem in that situation is that the handheld would be left without physical media.

Couldn't both have their physical media but for the handheld for example using it registers it on your account so if you have the home console it allows you to download it there and vice versa. Have no idea how that'd work for second hand games or trading in games though.

 

[Pokemaniac]

To make it easy to sell yearly revisions?

I don't think so. If you look back at the presentation where they originally talked about this (future hardware talk starts at the bottom of the page linked), you'll find these slides:

They are clearly unhappy with both generation transitions and the divide between handheld and console. Especially with Nintendo already experimenting with cross platform stuff right now, the logical conclusion would seem to be that they intend the libraries of their next handheld and console to be shared, at least to some degree.

EDIT: Incidentally, this is also part of why I'm so confident that they will find a way to get both Wii U and 3DS BC to work.

Couldn't both have their physical media but for the handheld for example using it registers it on your account so if you have the home console it allows you to download it there and vice versa. Have no idea how that'd work for second hand games or trading in games though.

That could work, but there are situations where that could get complicated. Tying into what I already said in this post, I think that Nintendo will want to do as much as they can to minimize friction when switching between handheld and console.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

The problem in that situation is that the handheld would be left without physical media.

I thought about that and I figured they just sell a copy with an NX card and a console download as well. Particularly for Japan.

 

[Vanillalite]

I don't see a reason for them to push 1080p for AAA games, especially 3rd party ones. I think Nintendo's direction for Wii U with their mix of 1080p and 720p games already hit a nice balance. How many PS4 games even use more than 32GBs? Are most PS4 games even dual layer? (50gb) or mostly 25gb single layer.

After looking at the launch titles, it seems they are mostly at or below 32GB, many actually much lower. There really is no such limit to these card sizes, so they could still offer 64GB but it would be bigger than PS4 or Xbox one can go and NX shouldn't need that, considering we are expecting it below PS4.

One last point I'd like to make is that Nintendo has since the N64 used less storage media than their competitors, N64 I believe had 32MB carts, GameCube had 1.8gb mini discs, wii used dual layer DVDs while PS3 had 50gb discs, Wii U is 25th, so they still haven't completely caught up.

To a large extent that defeats the modern day purpose of the handheld market for anyone.

Sure 32 gig SD Cards aren't overtly expensive, but people don't want to have to deal with physical media on the go. They are much more willing to deal with that shit at home.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I thought about that and I figured they just sell a copy with an NX card and a console download as well. Particularly for Japan.

But then they're producing two different SKUs of each game with different packaging. Retailers aren't exactly being very generous with shelf space for Nintendo right now. Plus, it seems a bit wasteful.

 

[Socordia]

I don't think so. If you look back at the presentation where they originally talked about this (future hardware talk starts at the bottom of the page linked), you'll find these slides:

They are clearly unhappy with both generation transitions and the divide between handheld and console. Especially with Nintendo already experimenting with cross platform stuff right now, the logical conclusion would seem to be that they intend the libraries of their next handheld and console to be shared, at least to some degree.

EDIT: Incidentally, this is also part of why I'm so confident that they will find a way to get both Wii U and 3DS BC to work.

I think its possible to go with crossbuy with account system for the future and only for digital push.Im lost on why people bring up physical media in any form. like in every thread.

 

[Adam Tyner]

I think its possible to go with crossbuy with account system for the future and only for digital push.Im lost on why people bring up physical media in any form. like in every thread.

It's not out of the realm of possibility (maybe B&M retailers would sell slips of paper with download codes in a case?), but I have a really hard time imagining Nintendo leading the digital-only charge.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I think its possible to go with crossbuy with account system for the future and only for digital push.Im lost on why people bring up physical media in any form. like in every thread.

Digital only limits their market. Not as bad as always online, but it is something to consider. I suppose they may be able to solve that issue somewhat for handhelds via Nintendo Zones, but they'd have to get a little more creative with the console.

Edit: Like the person above me said, retailers would also have to be okay selling only download cards.

 

[Socordia]

It's not out of the realm of possibility (maybe B&M retailers would sell slips of paper with download codes in a case?), but I have a really hard time imagining Nintendo leading the digital-only charge.

How is it digital only charge?

Digital only limits their market. Not as bad as always online, but it is something to consider. I suppose they may be able to solve that issue somewhat for handhelds via Nintendo Zones, but they'd have to get a little more creative with the console.

Edit: Like the person above me said, retailers would also have to be okay selling only download cards.

Did you see your shared slide for future platforms?

 

[Vanillalite]

It's not out of the realm of possibility (maybe B&M retailers would sell slips of paper with download codes in a case?), but I have a really hard time imagining Nintendo leading the digital-only charge.

They aren't. Apple already led that charge years ago at least for the mobile side.

 

[Adam Tyner]

How is it digital only charge?

Sorry, I think there might be a language barrier that's keeping my point from coming across.

If Nintendo stops using physical media and only makes their games available via downloads, they'll be the first major console to be digital-only ("leading the charge"). I cannot picture Nintendo doing that before Sony and Microsoft. Having to download that much data is an issue for quite a few people.

They aren't. Apple already led that charge years ago at least for the mobile side.

That's a fair point, especially since Nintendo cites Apple as inspiration at every turn, but I'd argue that the scale makes it apples-to-oranges. How many 10-25 gig iPad games are there?

 

[Mr.Fusion]

If they, for example, sell a physical copy of the console game that includes either a physical or digital copy of the handheld version for $60 and the handheld version by itself for $40, I think they're going to have a major problem with people reselling the second copy of the game that they don't want/need. There will be many people that don't care about having the handheld NX games and vice-versa. The only way I can see a way around this is if they only sell the cartridge in stores. There will be a $40 version by itself, that is intended for the handheld and a $60 version that of course works in the handheld, but also includes a code that enables you to download the console version and you must always put the cartridge in the console to play it.

 

[Calamari41]

That's a fair point, but I'd argue that the scale makes it apples-to-oranges. How many 10-25 gig iPad games are there?

That's a good point for sure, but to be fair, as long as they include enough internal storage the only difference will be the length of time it takes to download the software. For the handheld you don't need a huge amount of storage to satisfy the purchases of the average consumer, and for the home console you would be saving so much by eliminating the disk drive that you could theoretically afford to pump up the size of the hard drive accordingly. They've already shown that they're fine with making it incredibly easy to expand storage, as well.

 

[Chittagong]

Very interesting speculation here. It's really cool and rare that we get to see internal strategy slides like the ones above.

One thing to keep in mind is that Nintendo likes simplicity, robustness and access to less developed markets and retail channel. For that reason I believe CD/Card or CD/DL code combinations won't happen. They would work against Nintendo's goals. Nintendo has enough work in getting retail space for one format.

Another thing less discussed here is that Nintendo would be smart to stick to the DS concept as it works well for portable gaming, and differentiates them from tablets. Doing a single big touch tablet portable would introduce more discontinuities and competitive risks than it would provide benefits. Also, the DS concept has been successful, while Wii U has not.

For those reasons I believe the NX generation will be largely an evolution of DS family assets - ARM, DS Cards, DS form factor for portable; and the console will be an extension of those assets, severing continuity with previous home console legacy tech and concepts.

Here's what I would do, that would somewhat deliver to Nintendo's goals

Shared
+ One ARM SoC based architecture
+ SoC on both devices can be updated generationally while maintaining compatibility
+ Games on 32GB max cards that work on both devices
+ Games also available as DD
+ Game card based on 3DS format
+ All games utilising traditional controls work across home and handheld, with scalable performance

Console
+ Home console has more powerful SoC
+ Small, cheap, energy efficient box with no moving parts
+ Traditional controller or headless DS (bottom screen)

Handheld
+ Handheld maintains DS form factor
+ Small, robust, long battery life
+ Handheld has BC with 3DS
+ Touch Generations SKUs for select made-for-mobile games that play touch only

There would be tradeoffs, however

- With a single SKU, the game package needs to include both texture / asset sets
- BC with Wii U will be lost. While Microsoft was able to do SW BC across architectures, they have some of the world's best SW engineers. Nintendo doesn't
- Motion controls would be limited to 3DS / Wii U level tilting

I believe the above, while a bit boring and pragmatic,is the most Nintendo could stretch their resources for, while managing tech and business risk. I don't believe they have resources to introduce a new form factor concept for both home AND portable AND revolutionise their architecture in one generation. So they will stick to what works where possible. And what seems to work is DS concept for portables, and traditional controls for home.

EDIT - edited Console controller

 

[Pokemaniac]

That's a good point for sure, but to be fair, as long as they include enough internal storage the only difference will be the length of time it takes to download the software. For the handheld you don't need a huge amount of storage to satisfy the purchases of the average consumer, and for the home console you would be saving so much by eliminating the disk drive that you could theoretically afford to pump up the size of the hard drive accordingly. They've already shown that they're fine with making it incredibly easy to expand storage, as well.

You forgot that a lot of people still have to deal with data caps.

 

[Adam Tyner]

That's a good point for sure, but to be fair, as long as they include enough internal storage the only difference will be the length of time it takes to download the software.

It's not storage I see as a limiting factor so much as access to broadband and data caps. I admittedly might be making a bigger deal out of this than I should; look at how many XB1/PS4 games have day one patches bigger than entire Wii U games, and obviously those platforms are performing. With as wide a net as Nintendo likes to cast, I'm just not sure we're there yet.

 

[Calamari41]

It's not storage I see as a limiting factor so much as access to broadband and data caps. I admittedly might be making a bigger deal out of this than I should; look at how many XB1/PS4 games have day one patches bigger than entire Wii U games, and obviously those platforms are performing.

I see that for sure, it's definitely not an easy issue to answer. It's a road block in my mind as well, but I think they could pull it off if it came down to it.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Very interesting speculation here. It's really cool and rare that we get to see internal strategy slides like the ones above.

One thing to keep in mind is that Nintendo likes simplicity, robustness and access to less developed markets and retail channel. For that reason I believe CD/Card or CD/DL code combinations won't happen. They would work against Nintendo's goals. Nintendo has enough work in getting retail space for one format.

Another thing less discussed here is that Nintendo would be smart to stick to the DS concept as it works well for portable gaming, and differentiates them from tablets. Doing a single big touch tablet portable would introduce more discontinuities and competitive risks than it would provide benefits. Also, the DS concept has been successful, while Wii U has not.

For those reasons I believe the NX generation will be largely an evolution of DS family assets - ARM, DS Cards, DS form factor for portable; and the console will be an extension of those assets, severing continuity with previous home console legacy tech and concepts.

Here's what I would do, that would somewhat deliver to Nintendo's goals

Shared
+ One ARM SoC based architecture
+ SoC on both devices can be updated generationally while maintaining compatibility
+ Games on 32GB max cards that work on both devices
+ Games also available as DD
+ Game card based on 3DS format
+ All games utilising traditional controls work across home and handheld, with scalable performance

Console
+ Home console has more powerful SoC
+ Small, cheap, energy efficient box with no moving parts
+ Traditional controller

Handheld
+ Handheld maintains DS form factor
+ Small, robust, long battery life
+ Handheld has BC with 3DS
+ Touch Generations SKUs for select made-for-mobile games that play touch only

There would be tradeoffs, however

- With a single SKU, the game package needs to include both texture / asset sets
- BC with Wii U will be lost. While Microsoft was able to do SW BC across architectures, they have some of the world's best SW engineers. Nintendo doesn't
- Motion controls would be limited to 3DS / Wii U level tilting

I believe the above, while a bit boring and pragmatic,is the most Nintendo could stretch their resources for, while managing tech and business risk. I don't believe they have resources to introduce a new form factor concept for both home AND portable AND revolutionise their architecture in one generation. So they will stick to what works where possible. And what seems to work is DS concept for portables, and traditional controls for home.

Not a terrible prediction overall, but I think it has some problems.
-The max cartridge size would have to be closer to 64GB. The Wii U already has games that are pushing it's 25GB (really closer to 22GB) limit, and 32GB isn't hugely above that.
-There is no way that Nintendo will only allow traditional controls on the console. They'll want to be able to have as many of their games as possible be cross platform. A redesigned Gamepad will probably be supported, if not in the box. They also might as well keep Wiimotes compatible, too, so that they can keep Wii games around.
-Microsoft didn't develop the software used for 360 BC on Xbone. It was licensed from another company. Nintendo could totally do that, too. There are also other ways of making sure at least the console has Wii U BC, through both software and hardware.
-I'm not sure I'd call slides from an investor briefing "internal".

 

[Chittagong]

Not a terrible prediction overall, but I think it has some problems.
-The max cartridge size would have to be closer to 64GB. The Wii U already has games that are pushing it's 25GB (really closer to 22GB) limit, and 32GB isn't hugely above that.
-There is no way that Nintendo will only allow traditional controls on the console. They'll want to be able to have as many of their games as possible be cross platform. A redesigned Gamepad will probably be supported, if not in the box. They also might as well keep Wiimotes compatible, too, so that they can keep Wii games around.
-Microsoft didn't develop the software used for 360 BC on Xbone. It was licensed from another company. Nintendo could totally do that, too. There are also other ways of making sure at least the console has Wii U BC, through both software and hardware.
-I'm not sure I'd call slides from an investor briefing "internal".

Valid points.

The memory card size is a non issue, no reason there would be a hard cap, it's only a question of cost.

For controls, your post made me think. Maybe actually a headless DS would be feasible for their home controller. The savings on the chipset, disc drive, fans and cooling would give them some BOM space while still delivering an $199-$249 home console. Plus it would solve any compatibility issues, and even be passable for any Wii U BC. Would be a killer point for Dragons Quest XI at home, that map.

The BC thing is interesting, even if they outsourced it I think it's more trouble for them than the benefit of the 10M installed base is worth, especially if they ditch discs for cards. The main benefit would be having back catalog available, but they probably would rather sell those few key titles again, like OoT and MM.

By internal, I meant that most companies never show slides like that externally, even to investors. They just show the end product and let it speak for itself. It's cool to see the logic.

 

[TheXfactor]

Very interesting speculation here. It's really cool and rare that we get to see internal strategy slides like the ones above.

One thing to keep in mind is that Nintendo likes simplicity, robustness and access to less developed markets and retail channel. For that reason I believe CD/Card or CD/DL code combinations won't happen. They would work against Nintendo's goals. Nintendo has enough work in getting retail space for one format.

Another thing less discussed here is that Nintendo would be smart to stick to the DS concept as it works well for portable gaming, and differentiates them from tablets. Doing a single big touch tablet portable would introduce more discontinuities and competitive risks than it would provide benefits. Also, the DS concept has been successful, while Wii U has not.

For those reasons I believe the NX generation will be largely an evolution of DS family assets - ARM, DS Cards, DS form factor for portable; and the console will be an extension of those assets, severing continuity with previous home console legacy tech and concepts.

Here's what I would do, that would somewhat deliver to Nintendo's goals

Shared
+ One ARM SoC based architecture
+ SoC on both devices can be updated generationally while maintaining compatibility
+ Games on 32GB max cards that work on both devices
+ Games also available as DD
+ Game card based on 3DS format
+ All games utilising traditional controls work across home and handheld, with scalable performance

Console
+ Home console has more powerful SoC
+ Small, cheap, energy efficient box with no moving parts
+ Traditional controller or headless DS (bottom screen)

Handheld
+ Handheld maintains DS form factor
+ Small, robust, long battery life
+ Handheld has BC with 3DS
+ Touch Generations SKUs for select made-for-mobile games that play touch only

There would be tradeoffs, however

- With a single SKU, the game package needs to include both texture / asset sets
- BC with Wii U will be lost. While Microsoft was able to do SW BC across architectures, they have some of the world's best SW engineers. Nintendo doesn't
- Motion controls would be limited to 3DS / Wii U level tilting

I believe the above, while a bit boring and pragmatic,is the most Nintendo could stretch their resources for, while managing tech and business risk. I don't believe they have resources to introduce a new form factor concept for both home AND portable AND revolutionise their architecture in one generation. So they will stick to what works where possible. And what seems to work is DS concept for portables, and traditional controls for home.

EDIT - edited Console controller

the ds concept cost a lot of money, its cheaper to have one screen then 2. it would be smart of them to go away from it

 

[foltzie1]

I would assume the portable would be the gamepad like controller for the console. The number of folks with the console, but not the handheld would have to be small.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Valid points.

The memory card size is a non issue, no reason there would be a hard cap, it's only a question of cost.

For controls, your post made me think. Maybe actually a headless DS would be feasible for their home controller. The savings on the chipset, disc drive, fans and cooling would give them some BOM space while still delivering an $199-$249 home console. Plus it would solve any compatibility issues, and even be passable for any Wii U BC. Would be a killer point for Dragons Quest XI at home, that map.

The BC thing is interesting, even if they outsourced it I think it's more trouble for them than the benefit of the 10M installed base is worth, especially if they ditch discs for cards. The main benefit would be having back catalog available, but they probably would rather sell those few key titles again, like OoT and MM.

By internal, I meant that most companies never show slides like that externally, even to investors. They just show the end product and let it speak for itself. It's cool to see the logic.

From my understanding, the main thing driving up the current Gamepad is it's custom WiFi radio. Now that stuff like Miracast is popular, Nintendo should be able to build a redesigned one much cheaper in general.

Also, Nintendo has gone to great lengths in the past in order to keep BC. Given that easing generational transitions is one of their goals with NX, I don't see why they wouldn't do that this time as well.

Besides, the Wii U's low install base is actually a pretty good argument to have BC. It means they get to sell Wii U games to a much larger audience.

 

[openrob]

I just had this weird dream where the NX details were revealed, thought I would post it here..

It was a really powerful console that retailed for $650. It was essentially a cross between a steam machine and a Nintendo console and was a joint venture between Nintendo and Blizzard lol.
It actually looked amazing, the OS looked super customisable and slick.

It was going to have a strong esports focus and most 3rd parties were on board. A lot of the engines were supported, and specifically named frostbite engine (???) And every console shipped with a copy of MGS: Ground Zero.

For the record, I have had little interest in MGS for maybe 15 years and never played a Blizzard game haha.

 

[DKJB79]

I just had this weird dream where the NX details were revealed, thought I would post it here..

It was a really powerful console that retailed for $650. It was essentially a cross between a steam machine and a Nintendo console and was a joint venture between Nintendo and Blizzard lol.
It actually looked amazing, the OS looked super customisable and slick.

It was going to have a strong esports focus and most 3rd parties were on board. A lot of the engines were supported, and specifically named frostbite engine (???) And every console shipped with a copy of MGS: Ground Zero.

For the record, I have had little interest in MGS for maybe 15 years and never played a Blizzard game haha.

this is no dream but a nightmare ppp
no thanks !

 

[KojiKnight]

the ds concept cost a lot of money, its cheaper to have one screen then 2. it would be smart of them to go away from it

Not sure where you get the idea it cost a lot of money or that it's much cheaper to have one screen versus two. One large screen is apt to cost the same or more as 2 little ones.

If Nintendo was making money on the ds from day 1 (which they were), then I imagine today with even cheaper and higher quality screens they could do just as well.

 

[Rodin]

I would assume the portable would be the gamepad like controller for the console. The number of folks with the console, but not the handheld would have to be small.

Definitely, but that's another reason why i see the gamepad returning somehow. There will probably be a redesign that they'll sell at cost, advertised for off tv/additional functions in games (map, inventory, etc), and maybe they'll even have a sku with it, while the base sku has an evolution of the wii u pro controller. It's also possible that the wii u gamepad will work with nx, but i really hope this won't be the case as it would probably mean resistive touch again in the new version (and maybe it's a stretch, but could influence the handheld too).

About cartridges/discs, imho you guys are overthinking this. They'll want many games on both platforms, and they'll benefit a lot from not having to make two different versions of smash/mk/ecc while keeping them somehow different, but it's very unlikely that they'll shoot for that kind of total integration some are suggesting, where you basically choose if you want to play the same games on a portable screen wherever you want or on your tv with better graphics. They'll share many games, but you won't see Galaxy 3/open world Mario on the portable, and you won't get 2d rpg pokémon on the home. So if the home will have cartridges, that will happen because they offer better trade offs and are a smarter choice long term, not because you can put every single one of them in both consoles. Sure, it can happen with some games, and it would be a nice innovation for cross platform purchases, but that doesn't mean the two consoles will play the exact same games. The only thing that points in this direction is Iwata mentioning iOS, but that can be interpreted in many ways.