And what happens when in a small town the only two grocery stores in town refuse to serve black people?
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Court: Baker who refused to make gay wedding cake can't cite beliefs
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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And what happens when in a small town the only two grocery stores in town refuse to serve black people?
Well, in theory, that view would work out just fine. But reality has shown differently.
No he doesn't want to make cakes for same sex weddings.
balladofwindfishes
Member
That's Denver. A major city.
Try a small town with 2 gas stations, neither serve black people.
That wasn't the point. The point was that your right gets their talking points from the Middle Ages. Not really mindblowing then that people think of your country as backwards.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Ehh, Walker, Rubio, Trump (3/4 of the people mentioned) probably combine to have a 20% chance of being the next president.
dragonzdogma
Member
Here's a well respected panel of Christians talking about the subject
Should a Christian bake a cake for a gay wedding?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2zojfydk2c
You will probably be surprised of what they have to say.
TatteredHat
Member
This thread actually reminded me of a fragment from an interview with Patrick Stewart, who took the same stance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-54iiqwSYu8
I'm inclined to agree with his position as well.
Lys Skygge
Member
I don't get why this guy couldn't just make the damn cake. His ego might have been hurt a little but he wouldn't be facing all this drama and potential fines. The bible doesn't even mention not being able to provide a service to gay couples.
We all have said things we didn't fully think through, it happens. Not everyone is willing to admit they made a mistake though, so good on you.
ldcommando
Banned
is the cake in the pic a real cake? I want to eat it
Yeah, they have the right to refuse. Likewise, people have the right to not buy, sue them, and run them into the ground. It's their business, and they can run it however they like. That doesn't fly anymore though, and will lead them to financial ruin. Why would anyone actively prevent certain people from buying from their store? Economically it makes no sense! You're losing money, and time if it gets taken to court like in this situation.
You can be as big a bigot as you want, but don't be surprised when everyone rightfully starts calling you an asshole.
It's looking kind of dry though...can't stand dry cake...
You can be as big a bigot as you want, but don't be surprised when everyone rightfully starts calling you an asshole.
It's looking kind of dry though...can't stand dry cake...
He also gets free promotion as well. When chick-fil-a came out with their stance against gay people the lines were around the block.
It's okay you understand where you went wrong. I'm guessing you were thinking more on the lines of no shirt, no shoes, no service.
Laieon
Member
There's plenty of towns where the majority of people living in them are black. If they ban black people, then they'll probably lose money.
I do think it's a bit odd that GAF seems to have this notion that every single small town is just filled with a bunch of racist whites. I'm sure the vast majority of grocery stores in small towns would be more than happy to serve all different kinds of people. I say this as someone who's from a town with a population of under 10,000. I also say this as someone who lives in a place where you do occasionally run into places that will refuse to serve you ("No Foreigners Allowed"). I don't bitch and moan about it, I walk 20 feet to the place that does want me there.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I can't help but laugh at the concept some people have of business being somehow independent of government interference or something.
Huge parts of how every business works are regulated by the government on federal, state, county, and depending on where you are, city/town levels as well. You basically can't even run a business without signing papers and paying taxes and all these other things that are specifically reliant on laws and regulations.
It's totally baffling to me that people seemingly forget all this in the face of "I should be able to do what I want" arguments about business. You can't "do what you want", and never have been able to!
Huge parts of how every business works are regulated by the government on federal, state, county, and depending on where you are, city/town levels as well. You basically can't even run a business without signing papers and paying taxes and all these other things that are specifically reliant on laws and regulations.
It's totally baffling to me that people seemingly forget all this in the face of "I should be able to do what I want" arguments about business. You can't "do what you want", and never have been able to!
I am American, I leave my house frequently. I'm not sure how you can say that and say you're American.
When we have places where a black population is a minority of the town, but the majority of the towns arrests are black people, I fail to see how the logic wouldn't follow that if a business could discriminate against black people, they wouldn't.
Also, yes, we ARE about 400 years behind the rest of the known first world, in both our policies and our way of thinking.
This is seriously the truth.
Probably because quite a few of us came from small towns in the first place and we know what it's like there.
Laieon
Member
Did you miss the part where I did too?
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
As a Christian, nothing surprises me.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Because this has happened in the past
A racist grocery store owner doesn't care if he loses money not serving african americans. He doesn't serve them due to deep rooted hatred, even if he loses money. Even if he goes out of business, racism is so embedded into his mind that allowing black people to increase business wouldn't even enter his mind as an option.
We know this is how it happens because it has happened, even in the life times of people who are still alive.
That's why the "if they lose money they'll change" stuff doesn't work. You're applying rational methods to business to irrational people.
Laieon
Member
If he eventually goes out of business or loses money, what's the problem then? He loses either way, society has spoken.
I think nowadays even in pretty small towns you'd have a hard time outwardly saying you won't serve black people. There are probably a few towns where that might work, but overall probably not. It would be a nonstarter for the most part.
The thing is, though, that's decades after forced integration. We're literally in the same year of allowing same sex marriage across the country. Businesses absolutely would survive right now if they didn't allow same sex couples or doing business for same sex weddings.
The thing is, though, that's decades after forced integration. We're literally in the same year of allowing same sex marriage across the country. Businesses absolutely would survive right now if they didn't allow same sex couples or doing business for same sex weddings.
metalslimer
Member
This businesses will lose money crap has been proven wrong just by the amount of gofundme money these bigots have received. There are millions of people that support exactly what they are doing
You have to be completely naive to think that being anti gay people these days is devastating outside of government action.
You have to be completely naive to think that being anti gay people these days is devastating outside of government action.
Considering those anti-gay businesses that crowd support hundreds of thousands of dollars from other anti-gay supporters?
I disagree, there may still be racism against black people but no one wants to seen as a racist even if they are.They would stay away from the shop out of pure fear of the label being placed on them.
Right now we don't have that for the gay community. They are hiding behind there religious beliefs in order to discriminate against someone different then them.
balladofwindfishes
Member
That doesn't mean another business will prop up that fills the role his did. If he's the last grocery store for miles, there's no guarantee another will step up and fill the same niche, and even if one did open, there's no guarantee it wouldn't be segregated either.
And what if he doesn't go out of business. What if not serving minorities actually gains him business.
You're basically denying that the history of discrimination from the early to mid 1900s never happened.
Doing so condones segregation. Is that really something people should reward by supporting stores that express beliefs such as discrimination? I'd venture to say that people doing so impacts poorly upon a society and on a smaller scale, the community.
Orbis Tabula
Member
I don't understand how it's not really a case of sexual discrimination. If you're willing to bake a cake for a woman who is marrying a man, but you won't bake a cake for a man who is marrying a man, then you're discriminating on the basis of his gender.
Kickstarter wasn't a thing back in Adam Smith's times so it obviously doesn't count as the free market. Because a free market fixes everything and is perfect in every way.
Laieon
Member
I don't really have an issue with stupid people giving money to stupid people either. I believe people should be able to do with their money what they choose.
xKilltheMx
Member
Any and all discrimination is fucked.
Should they be able to pay someone to spit in every cake they bake for you?
That directly goes against your belief that the free market will run the discriminating businesses out of business.
KEY HINT, THEIR SUPPORTS WILL KEEP THEM IN BUSINESS, JUST LIKE DURING SEGREGATION
Orbis Tabula
Member
Unless they're gay and choose to buy a cake with their money. You don't mind if they're not able to do that.
You can believe that, but stop proclaiming that the result would be anything other than utter shit. Laissez-faire doesn't incentivize social change and sure as shit doesn't fix anything.
You get equality or a free market. Not both.
Yes and? Just because you did doesn't mean you're experience goes for everyone. When most people here are saying you're wrong, then chances are, you're wrong.
Society is speaking right now dude. By not allowing the business to discriminate
If his religious beliefs are so important, he shouldn't be running a business that will make him serve people he doesn't want to. A wide assortment of jobs are available that would better fit his rigid belief system that society has rejected
White people own a disproportionate number of businesses. You'd only be hurting fellow citizens for no reason. This didn't work the first time.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Whats the legality of refusing to do a cake design that is viewed as obscene?
Obviously arguing that having two dudes on a cake be "obscene" is stupid as fuck, but can't an owner deny designs that are say ISIS flags, KKK flags and so on?
Not that it matters, this guy wasn't the arguing the design as far as I can tell, he simply didn't want to make a fucking cake for a gay wedding, which I would view as denial of service.
Obviously arguing that having two dudes on a cake be "obscene" is stupid as fuck, but can't an owner deny designs that are say ISIS flags, KKK flags and so on?
Not that it matters, this guy wasn't the arguing the design as far as I can tell, he simply didn't want to make a fucking cake for a gay wedding, which I would view as denial of service.
The Last Wizard
Member
Where can I get some this rainbow cake at? Looks good.
So now he'll just get a donation drive going and make like a million dollars or more to support his family.
I think as a public business you should be forced to make the cake, but he shouldn't have to write his support of gay marriage. We can't force people to say or believe in something they don't.
And yes courts need to get involved because normal people are surprisingly racist and bigoted.
I think as a public business you should be forced to make the cake, but he shouldn't have to write his support of gay marriage. We can't force people to say or believe in something they don't.
And yes courts need to get involved because normal people are surprisingly racist and bigoted.
You want to taste the rainbow?
metalslimer
Member
Then stop arguing his beliefs would put him out of business
No. ...well maybe, BUT only if he's in the business of selling hate cakes, but he's not.
There is no practical reason a "gay wedding cake" should be considered a separate product category. It's just a "wedding cake" that happens to be ordered by a gay couple
If a straight heterosexual couple comes in and asks for a "wedding cake" and you sell them one, but refuse when a gay couple comes in and asks for the same service a "wedding cake" to be made. That's discrimination.
If somebody comes in and asks for a hate cake and you don't sell hate cakes to anyone. That's not discrimination when they get denied
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