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[southerncross]

except it really doesn't. at least the protagonist spoke more then 6 words (exaggeration but still)

Story in MGS4 isn't better than the one in MGSV solely because it has a lot of needless exposition that Hayter has to react to somehow. "War economy?", "Liquid Ocelot's Insurrection?", "SOP?". You need to look beyond what letters are in the script to appreciate what Kojima's done in MGSV. And it's good, since he's far better when he tries to convey some idea without words than when he tortures us with his terrible dialogue.

But then again, people greeted MGS4 with the highest level of hyperbole possible, so it's not surprising doing the exact opposite of MGS4 made Metal Gear fans so angry.

How can a "novelist" suggest that the cut arc didn't matter?

It doesn't matter to what lies at the heart of the story. It just ties some loose ends in continuity because canon is somehow still important even though Ocelot's characterization is the most inconsistent thing on this planet.

 

[Lernaean]

There are many truths in the text, but it can't be heard with all the shallow opinions being screamed on the internet.
Great read anyway, keep on hating guys.

 

[Beefy]

speak for yourself.

I always do as does everyone else on a forum.

 

[SomTervo]

Story in MGS4 isn't better than the one in MGSV solely because it has a lot of needless exposition that Hayter has to react to somehow. "War economy?", "Liquid Ocelot's Insurrection?", "SOP?". You need to look beyond what letters are in the script to appreciate what Kojima's done in MGSV. And it's good, since he's far better when he tries to convey some idea without words then when he tortures us with his terrible dialogue.

But then again, people greeted MGS4 was with the highest level of hyperbole possible, so it's not surprising doing the exact opposite of MGS4 made Metal Gear fans so angry.

Yep.

1. MGSV has some flaws that run very deep, but it's an incredible game, and the story is deeper than people realise. The most interesting aspects and good character writing are written between the lines. Also, the post-Episode 47 tapes are fucking brilliant and give as much resolution waffle as the post MGS2 or 4 endings give, but in optional tapes, so you're not forced to sit through it.

2. Go back and read the MGS4 OT. You'll see literally, word-for-word, the same rageposts about MGS4. Like people complaining that the story is 'not there' (despite hours of cutscenes), that the pacing was flawed, etc.

History repeats itself.

Ishmael's lack of facial hair was a straight up lie, you cannot get around this.

Arguably the whole thing was a facecast. Models extracted out of game files don't necessarily relate to what was actually going on in the narrative.

 

[Possumowner]

Well it was good interesting read.But the game feels tainted now,despite its brilliance the story was a bit of a mess.

 

[AlteredForms]

Damn. Some of the responses to my post seem skin-deep. So the reviewers were bullshitting us with their perfect 10 scores and pre-order bonuses!? F**k GameSpot!

 

[Henkka]

Ishmael's lack of facial hair was a straight up lie, you cannot get around this.

Not to mention the doctor not showing you the back of the photo when you start the game. What was up with that?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

The best thing about MGSV is that it made me realize not to be involved in fanbases for things I enjoy.

 

[213372bu]

It doesn't matter to what lies at the heart of the story.

So when Big Boss's son goes out to wreck havoc in the Metal Gear that was erased from history and hasn't fully experienced the things he talks about in MGS1 it isn't a whole or part of the reason he is included in the game?

Additionally, lots of things like the best character in the game being severely under-utilized is a bother.

Lots of scenes also stand better on their own, rather than with surrounding contexts.

These are all things that can and do break a novel.

And if we're going to treat Eli's arc as not a heart of the story, what are the tapes delegated to, (a key factor in understanding the story?)

 

[Permanently A]

Damn. Some of the responses to my post seem skin-deep. So the reviewers were bullshitting us with their perfect 10 scores and pre-order bonuses!? F**k GameSpot!

It's not that the perfect 10 scores are invalidated - its just that those reviewers prioritized their scoring of the game differently than most fans would have. Most fans are expected a really intense narrative from an MGS game - which this game did not deliver. But this game did deliver incredibly organic and enjoyable gameplay that was good enough for those reviewers to score the game a 10 and overlook the hacked up story.

 

[SomTervo]

Not to mention the doctor not showing you the back of the photo when you start the game. What was up with that?

The idea is that you're misremembering/blacking-out

Spoiler

that whole bit after all your hypnotism

. The whole thing is an unreliable narrator narrative.

Spoiler

Venom Snake

is only seeing what fits with his internal logic.

That is - the doctor DID show you, but

Spoiler

your mind denied it/forgot it, blanking the bit where he slipped it aside and turned it around.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Sounds like a hell of a lot of excuses. "If the game had its actual intended ending, it would have thrown the balance off!". Bullshit.

Worst MGS.

 

[KORNdoggy]

You need to look beyond what letters are in the script to appreciate what Kojima's done in MGSV. And it's good

there is nothing to look at, that's the issue. the story stinks because it's not there, i can't appreciate something that isn't there... it's not only shit premise wise, but is actually presented in a horrible, poorly paced fashion that makes those small flourishes of narrative seem worthless.

"good" is not a word i'd use to describe anything bar the core mechanics of MGSV. as people have said already. it does well at the gameplay...but does terribly at "everything else". it's a crying shame it was kojimas last MGS imo. it's the biggest disappointment I've played this year for the simple fact it's not really an MGS title at all.

 

[Beefy]

2. Go back and read the MGS4 OT. You'll see literally, word-for-word, the same rageposts about MGS4. Like people complaining that the story is 'not there' (despite hours of cutscenes), that the pacing was flawed, etc.

History repeats itself.

See I like MGS4 and count it as one of my fave games last gen. My main dislike of MGSV is I just didn't like the open world.

 

[AlteredForms]

It's not that the perfect 10 scores are invalidated - its just that those reviewers prioritized their scoring of the game differently than most fans would have. Most fans are expected a really intense narrative from an MGS game - which this game did not deliver. But this game did deliver incredibly organic and enjoyable gameplay that was good enough for those reviewers to score the game a 10 and overlook the hacked up story.

Game needs to deliver on all fronts. A part of the high scores may be due to Kojima's departure from the franchise and how everybody wanted him to go out with a bang.

 

[Drencrom]

From my point of view as a novelist, I can appreciate the impossibility of bringing a story to its completion 28 years after it began, with no loose ends or contradictions. There isn't a person alive who could do it; it'd be weirder if we could. Stories aren't created by machines. There are bound to be things that don't mesh together perfectly ? it's simply human. I see that as a part of this work of art by a human artist, so let's love it for what it is.

They got balls to say bullshit like this.

Yeah, writing a story about Big Boss becoming a demon and the fallen hero he is in MG1/2 is apparently impossible and unreasonable while writing a nonsensical, disjointed story about a shitty doppelganger that goes nowhere and has non-exsistant character arcs and plotholes is apparently something to be celebrated because it's human in the end.

Bravo Kojima! Bravo best-seller novelists!

 

[Angel_DvA]

Looks like people are still salty because they didn't have what THEY wanted, Kojima never delivered what people wanted, never and that's why I love it so much.

 

[SomTervo]

See I like MGS4 and count it as one of my fave games last gen. My main dislikeof MGSV is I just didn't like the open world.

MGS4 is a game I generally want to forget. Don't make me pay £40 then make me sit and do nothing for ~8 hours and interrupt my actual entertainment every 15 minutes.

Also the story is hilariously bad. Infinitely, infinitely worse than MGSV's. MGS4 has highs higher than MGSV's highs, but it's mainly lows, and super-low-lows at that.

I understand that you disliked the open world, though. I feel it could have been a bit better. The inclusion of different factions and combat sandboxes would have made it perfect and amazing.

In generaly, my take on it is that it's not really an open world game. It's just a stealth game ala Splinter Cell or MGS, but set in a large level. So you don't need to explore to find everything or mucking about ala GTA - you should be focused on your objective. Once you start focusing on just completing objectives and having fun doing it, the huge world bends into an amazing thing. A make-your-own-MGS enabler.

Looks like people are still salty because they didn't have what THEY wanted, Kojima never delivered what people wanted, never and that's why I love it so much.

.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

The idea is that you're misremembering/blacking-out

Spoiler

that whole bit after all your hypnotism

. The whole thing is an unreliable narrator narrative.

Spoiler

Venom Snake

is only seeing what fits with his internal logic.

That is - the doctor DID show you, but

Spoiler

your mind denied it/forgot it, blanking the bit where he slipped it aside and turned it around.

Spoiler

Yea, that's why the intro is titled "FLASHBACK"

It's a memory that's mis-remembered

 

[DNAbro]

MGS4 is a game I generally want to forget. Don't make me pay £40 then make me sit and do nothing for ~8 hours and interrupt my actual entertainment every 15 minutes.

Also the story is hilariously bad. Infinitely, infinitely worse than MGSV's. MGS4 has highs higher than MGSV's highs, but it's mainly lows, and super-low-lows at that.

I understand that you disliked the open world, though. I feel it could have been a bit better. The inclusion of different factions and combat sandboxes would have made it perfect and amazing.

In generaly, my take on it is that it's not really an open world game. It's just a stealth game ala Splinter Cell or MGS, but set in a large level. So you don't need to explore to find everything or mucking about ala GTA - you should be focused on your objective. Once you start focusing on just completing objectives and having fun doing it, the huge world bends into an amazing thing. A make-your-own-MGS enabler.



.

By the time I got to chapter 2 and even a bit before that, I felt like it was getting a bit repetitive. Going back to these same places again and again for side ops was a complete chore, and made me dislike what was happening. I really didn't want to just do the same thing over and over again by repeating the same missions with different difficulty modifiers.

Game has problems beyond just story and it's open world design.

 

[213372bu]

Looks like people are still salty because they didn't have what THEY wanted, Kojima never delivered what people wanted, never and that's why I love it so much.

I don't understand this. I really, really appreciate this game,to the point where I can enjoy specific scenes, but you appreciate this game because people are "salty" that scenes that were worked on and had English voice acting LITERALLY weren't fully finished and couldn't make release or because there was bad pacing etc. Did you just buy Kojima's kool-aid that it was bad because we were suppose feel a "phantom"? Shit was rushed, and it shows.

I swear, whether it be people who fully hate the game and consider the worst of the gen to people who see no faults/disappointments in the game's key areas; why is MGS's fanbase the fucking worst?

 

[southerncross]

there is nothing to look at, that's the issue. the story stinks because it's not there, i can't appreciate something that isn't there...

What was the story of MGS4 about other than two brothers being involved in absurdly illogical and convoluted scheme to take down the war economy? What was the story of Peace Walker about other than s;lkghewrl;jgos? MGSV is about dangers of looking up to other people's legends and necessity of building your own one.

Looks like people are still salty because they didn't have what THEY wanted, Kojima never delivered what people wanted, never and that's why I love it so much.

Same as with MGS2, the anger of fanbase is calculated and fits into the game's themes.

The inclusion of different factions and combat sandboxes would have made it perfect and amazing.

The best things MGS4 had. Too bad they went away forever after 2 chapters!

 

[Ludens]

Kojima "Guys, you should really buy this novel to fully understand TPP."

No.

Also what is this bullshit about Episode 51? Really?

Because it's the

Spoiler

closure to a big story arc simply left incomplete in the main game, putting it into the game would ruin it? Lol.

As usual, non-sense speculation is non-sense, why someone needs to justify the mess TPP's plot is.

 

[The Jackdog]

Story in MGS4 isn't better than the one in MGSV solely because it has a lot of needless exposition that Hayter has to react to somehow. "War economy?", "Liquid Ocelot's Insurrection?", "SOP?". You need to look beyond what letters are in the script to appreciate what Kojima's done in MGSV. And it's good, since he's far better when he tries to convey some idea without words than when he tortures us with his terrible dialogue.

But then again, people greeted MGS4 with the highest level of hyperbole possible, so it's not surprising doing the exact opposite of MGS4 made Metal Gear fans so angry.



It doesn't matter to what lies at the heart of the story. It just ties some loose ends in continuity because canon is somehow still important even though Ocelot's characterization is the most inconsistent thing on this planet.

im totally with you on big boss not needing to constantly basically repeat words and just ad a question mark to them. im fine with that. i prefer the MGS5 style now of dialogue, i do.

there was still just a total lack of actual story for me though

 

[Ridley327]

The best things MGS4 had. Too bad they went away forever after 2 chapters!

And even then, they were used for only brief bits of those chapters. It may as well have not existed in chapter 2 since you spend most of your time rescuing soldiers for a section that's about 10 minutes long, maybe.

 

[213372bu]

Same as with MGS2, the anger of fanbase is calculated and fits into the game's themes.

wat.

MGSV was a flip MGS2 situation where we were suppose to be Venom and mourn him as a tragic character who continues to fill his role as Big Boss who suffers death though being still manipulated by Big Boss.

Also, games like MGS 1/3/PW etc. aren't made for "calculated anger of the fanbase".

 

[SomTervo]

By the time I got to chapter 2 and even a bit before that, I felt like it was getting a bit repetitive. Going back to these same places again and again for side ops was a complete chore, and made me dislike what was happening. I really didn't want to just do the same thing over and over again by repeating the same missions with different difficulty modifiers.

Game has problems beyond just story and it's open world design.

I never had this problem. Fair enough if you did. At hour 70 the game was still taking me to new places. And even then, the later Side Op missions throw unique enemy combinations into same-old locations, making it surprisingly fresh. There are even Side Ops where patrolling enemies are placed where there were 0 enemies before. Also if you go back and try getting all 6 optional objectives on each Episode, there's a phenomenal amount of variation. The side objectives force you to play very differently and push out of your comfort zone.

Imo most of the 'repetitive' complaints come from people playing safely in their comfort zone. Which is an easy thing to do, admittedly, and you are incentivised to Fulton which leads to a certain style of play.

What problems are you talking about? I thought the story was mainly fine and the open world design was mainly fine. They both have flaws that run deep but each individual aspect is brilliant.

 

[Drencrom]

Looks like people are still salty because they didn't have what THEY wanted, Kojima never delivered what people wanted, never and that's why I love it so much.

In my case, I'm not "salty" the story wasn't what I expected and was told it was about. It's more about the story just being downright boring without the qualities of the older MGS stories I liked, that on top of the story being blatantly unfinished and purposely inconsequential just cements how bad it is.

 

[SJRB]

This only confirms once again that apparantly Kojima has no idea what the fuck he was doing with MGSV, and is literally clueless as to how to write a coherent story script.

I still believe that, after five years of development, he is in so deep it's impossible for him to see right from wrong. He truly believes his story is a masterpiece.

 

[DevilFox]

Please read what these guys said, they came up with good excuses for my crap writing. If you have imagination and would like to take my side, if you're a true Kojima lover, then please write at kojima@troll.jp.

Move on, Kojima, eat humble pie and realize your mistakes.

 

[TheKastorian]

Looks like people are still salty because they didn't have what THEY wanted, Kojima never delivered what people wanted, never and that's why I love it so much.

.

 

[Palculator]

Yo you people need to chill

 

[213372bu]

Why are people quoting "Kojima wanted people to feel salty and that's why the unfinished story is so fulfilling"?

Can y'all explain yourselves at all or are you trying to rationalize something.

Because as someone who likes this game more than the average person, I'm struggling really hard to see how a conglomerate of people can truly believe that unfinished, English-voice acted scenes that were suppose to be in the game were all part of Kojima's plan.

 

[Rymuth]

Ishmael's lack of facial hair was a straight up lie, you cannot get around this.

Thank you.

 

[southerncross]

Also, games like MGS 1/3/PW etc. aren't made for "calculated anger of the fanbase".

That's right. Only MGSV and MGS2 are, which makes them my favorites.

MGSV was a flip MGS2 situation where we were suppose to be Venom and mourn him as a tragic character who continues to fill his role as Big Boss who suffers death though being still manipulated by Big Boss.

Yeah, which is the second time we're not playing as the person we thought we were. Back in 2001 everyone was angry about not being Solid Snake. Today they are angry about not being Big Bosses.

MGS2 and MGSV have a radically different type of storytelling from other games in series - they are more like a provocation directed at the player, forcing them to reevaluate some things they took for certain. And this is what I prefer.

Thank you.

Uh, post #54? It's not like Big Boss never used this trick...

 

[hydrophilic attack]

This game is my GOTY

That's pretty good in year that had awesome releases like Bloodborne, Olliolli 2 and Sorcery! 3

 

[Curufinwe]

This game is my GOTY

That's pretty good in year that had awesome releases like Bloodborne, Olliolli 2 and Sorcery! 3

I have it behind Bloodborne, but I wouldn't be surprised if it won GotY on GAF. The salty meltdowns would be glorious.

 

[213372bu]

Yeah, which is the second time we're not playing as the person we thought we were. Back in 2001 everyone was angry about not being Solid Snake. Today they are angry about not being Big Bosses.

MGS2 and MGSV have a radically different type of storytelling from other games in series - they are more like a provocation directed at the player, forcing them to reevaluate some things they took for certain. And this is what I prefer.

It wasn't provocative or even a clever twist. We were constantly being told through cutscenes, interviews, vague philosophy, and characters in the story that we "just might not be Big Boss."

Most people are upset that this wasn't developed naturally as a story, that critical scenes were missing, and that the ending falls flat and doesn't really hold itself. Which is the opposite of every other MGS. Even the ending dialogue was rushed:

Ocelot to Miller: " One day we are going to be on opposite sides and take sides when he his kids come of age. Also, one of us is going to kill the other."

Each Metal Gear Solid had a better put together rap-up.

Even Metal Gear Solid 4.

 

[LouisaFerre]

That's right. Only MGSV and MGS2 are, which makes them my favorites.



Yeah, which is the second time we're not playing as the person we thought we were. Back in 2001 everyone was angry about not being Solid Snake. Today they are angry about not being Big Bosses.

MGS2 and MGSV have a radically different type of storytelling from other games in series - they are more like a provocation directed at the player, forcing them to reevaluate some things they took for certain. And this is what I prefer.



Uh, post #54? It's not like Big Boss never used this trick...

I would personally say that MGSV is not nearly as good as MGS2 though.

In MGS2, the relevant themes of Raiden being analogous to the player, being lied to or misled, and the illusion of choice all come up repeatedly throughout the story. They are a much more relevant part of the game than the twist at the end of MGSV, which, as far as I could remember, was largely absent from the player experience outside of the first and last hours of the game. Also, nevermind that the "twist"of playing as Raiden is part of but not the primary point of what MGS2 was going for as a metanarrative.

There are more issues I have with the game's story(and even the gameplay) than just that, but it's just not a very good execution of what MGS2 did.

 

[Otheradam]

Gameplay wise it's def the best Metal Gear but the main point of these games is the silly story. The lack of story in the game makes me really conflicted. It's def a disappointment in that department. Great game but a really bad Metal Gear game.

 

[DNAbro]

I never had this problem. Fair enough if you did. At hour 70 the game was still taking me to new places. And even then, the later Side Op missions throw unique enemy combinations into same-old locations, making it surprisingly fresh. There are even Side Ops where patrolling enemies are placed where there were 0 enemies before. Also if you go back and try getting all 6 optional objectives on each Episode, there's a phenomenal amount of variation. The side objectives force you to play very differently and push out of your comfort zone.

Imo most of the 'repetitive' complaints come from people playing safely in their comfort zone. Which is an easy thing to do, admittedly, and you are incentivised to Fulton which leads to a certain style of play.

What problems are you talking about? I thought the story was mainly fine and the open world design was mainly fine. They both have flaws that run deep but each individual aspect is brilliant.

Pacing of the story, unresolved plot lines, an extremely weak build up and end to Skull Face's, Some god awful directed scenes, the conclusion.

There was a certain point where I wished the world wasn't as open and it would just drop me right next to where I needed to be. It wasn't a huge deal but it didn't help the game at all.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

"Unfinished content? Don't know what you're talking about! It was all intentional, it's up to interpretation guys! Any complaining is just you not getting over the MGS series begin over now. I don't see any problems with this plot!"

KOJIMAAA!!!!
And I always believed the idea that Konami was the one to blame >_>

 

[Drencrom]

People comparing MGSV medic twist/controversy with what Kojima did in MGS2 are hilarious, it's the opposite of it and he even failed at it. He basically just wanted tell us, the players, that we are Big Boss, the opposite of MGS2's message about us not being Solid Snake or Raiden.

The problem is that the whole doppelganger thing is only played off to be some shitty twist at the end, nothing more substantial is there to it and there are no other implications to the story when knowing that fact. It could've worked if it was actually well done and poignantly made, but it really isn't. It just comes of as a pandering and meager way of saying "you are Big Boss" with a crappy endgame twist while also not giving us a satisfying and relevant story and having Big Boss character arc coming to an end. The story itself just isn't good and satisfying in itself.

The reason why people were angry regarding Raiden in MGS2 was that they didn't get to play as Solid Snake (a pretty silly reason in retrospective). The reason people are angry about the whole medic boss thing in MGSV is because it doesn't explain anything about Big Boss becoming a demon and it downright just isn't even a game about him and we never see anything of relevance in the game that ties in to the other games. MGS2 story was just as much about Solid Snake as Raiden, you just didn't play as Snake most of it. MGS2 was at least relevant storywise to Snake and the other games in th series and was an finished narrative compared MGSV.

Why are people quoting "Kojima wanted people to feel salty and that's why the unfinished story is so fulfilling"?

Can y'all explain yourselves at all or are you trying to rationalize something.

Because as someone who likes this game more than the average person, I'm struggling really hard to see how a conglomerate of people can truly believe that unfinished, English-voice acted scenes that were suppose to be in the game were all part of Kojima's plan.

It's the argument fanboys and people in denial have ended up with after months of discussion of the game's story basically. It being unfinished, inconsequential and bad is the point and you just don't get it, maaaaan!

 

[southerncross]

"Unfinished content? Don't know what you're talking about! It was all intentional, it's up to interpretation guys! Any complaining is just you not getting over the MGS series begin over now. I don't see any problems with this plot!"

you know, you can simultaneously think something is unfinished and decide what is there is good enough

I would personally say that MGSV is not nearly as good as MGS2 though...

I can see why people like MGS2 much more. But I don't mean to imply both games are perfectly analogous. MGS2 was MGS1 type of storytelling with a TWEEST. MGSV twist is something that means to build a context for previous 40 hours of gameplay that focused on the player building their legend through their actions. It worked for me since I got extremely tired of MGS4-styled storytelling and I loved TPP's mechanics, I can see why it didn't work for others, but people who drag it through shit and call it Kojima's biggest failure seem to have an extremely narrow vision of what a story should be

 

[Veal]

there is nothing to look at, that's the issue. the story stinks because it's not there, i can't appreciate something that isn't there... it's not only shit premise wise, but is actually presented in a horrible, poorly paced fashion that makes those small flourishes of narrative seem worthless.

"good" is not a word i'd use to describe anything bar the core mechanics of MGSV. as people have said already. it does well at the gameplay...but does terribly at "everything else". it's a crying shame it was kojimas last MGS imo. it's the biggest disappointment I've played this year for the simple fact it's not really an MGS title at all.

Dude the hyperbole is off the charts!

 

[fastmower]

That author is talking bullshit. smh. He sounds like another Kojima 'Yes Man'.

 

[southerncross]

He basically just wanted tell us, the players, that we are Big Boss, the opposite of MGS2's message about us not being Solid Snake or Raiden.

Yes, that's precisely what he wanted to tell us by showing us a broken man who can't even be allowed to be his own person. He definitely didn't want to show us what would happen to Raiden if he let himself be swallowed by Solid Snake's legend.

The reason people are angry about the whole medic boss thing in MGSV is because it doesn't explain anything about Big Boss becoming a demon and it downright just isn't even a game about him and we never see anything of relevance in the game that ties in to the other games.

We've already had MGS4, AN AMAZING MASTERPIECE THAT TIED THE CANON TOGETHER, and three "MISSING LINKS IN METAL GEAR SAGA". This time, it was about the player, not some bullshit canon that makes no sense anyway since years ago.

 

[valkyre]

The way some people express their disappointment for MGSV and Kojima is extremely immature, ridiculous, distasteful and downright insulting...

Seriously some of the comments are pure trash. Not because people should like the game, the story or whatever, but because of the way they express their opinion. Shame.

 

[RK9039]

All I got from MGSV is that everyone is Big Bass,

Spoiler

and that you can release a game unfinished and fans will claim it was designed that way!

The end.

 

[southerncross]

Saying something is "unfinished" is not a valid criticism. I feel bad comparing Hideo "MONSTER PLANT WOMAN" Kojima to someone as great as Franz Kafka, but none of the biggest Kafka's works were ever finished, and they are some of the best pieces of literature you can find around.