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Why can't I play without a map?
- Thread starter fresquito
- Start date
Transistor
Banned
Seriously OP, play Morrowind.
His Majesty
Banned
That's even worse to me. At least a quest marker you can approach from multiple sides.
Agreed with OP. Another example would be Morrwind. NPC's give you directions, it's up to you to follow them. No quest markers involved.
Oh yeah, FriendlyHUD if you are tired of looking at the mini-map.
Shadow of the Colossus is probably the best example of map-free navigation. You just hold up your sword and are given a direction to go, but you can always choose to go elsewhere. It also helps a lot with game atmosphere.
The souls games are pretty good about this too. I can't speak to Dark 1 and 2 or Demons, but I'm currently playing Bloodborne and at first I was confused due to the lack of a map, but quickly became accustomed to the environment and started to enjoy the game more. It allows for moments like when you're overlooking Yarnham from Cathedral Ward and being able to spot the exact spot you fought the first boss. Having a map in game would take some of that away.
The souls games are pretty good about this too. I can't speak to Dark 1 and 2 or Demons, but I'm currently playing Bloodborne and at first I was confused due to the lack of a map, but quickly became accustomed to the environment and started to enjoy the game more. It allows for moments like when you're overlooking Yarnham from Cathedral Ward and being able to spot the exact spot you fought the first boss. Having a map in game would take some of that away.
timmyp53
Member
I think this makes sense in smaller open world games like Shenmue where npcs give you directions. I couldn't imagine it in a fallout or something for instance... although it'd be cool as fuck to be going through street signs and numbered streets. I think fantasy genre it's just weird though. Modern settings it's fine.
Demoskinos
Member
Wait what?? Then what is the point?
Old Gimlet Eyes
Member
I played AC for years since it originally came out. I'm still finding old pages of coords I had written down lol.
Having Maps is great, it's the GPS features that destroy the feeling of exploration.
If i'm Geralt, i porbably have a map of Velen. that's cool. It's the big "your are here" and "go there" arrows that ruin things.
Let me have to listen to the directions or figure out where exactly that old tower is.
Finding a hidden schack in the swamps should involve a bit of looking around, as should finding people in a big city you are unfamiliar with.
I get why games aren't designed like that anymore. But boy was it more fun when they were.
Also shoutout to divinity for using arrows very sparringly.
If i'm Geralt, i porbably have a map of Velen. that's cool. It's the big "your are here" and "go there" arrows that ruin things.
Let me have to listen to the directions or figure out where exactly that old tower is.
Finding a hidden schack in the swamps should involve a bit of looking around, as should finding people in a big city you are unfamiliar with.
I get why games aren't designed like that anymore. But boy was it more fun when they were.
Also shoutout to divinity for using arrows very sparringly.
Just Cause 3 – no minimap. All on-screen HUD. Still has a map but only flags up items when they're the last few
MGSV – no minimap. All on-screen HUD. Flags up main objective but not the countless routes or side objectives/opportunities in each mission.
STALKER Call of Pripyat – has a compas at the top of your screen, and objectives are usually given to you as a 'general area'; but the game never flags up exactly where you have to go (unless it's a specific NPC you're talking to). Probably the most 'open' open world games I've ever played – you really feel like you're free to approach any situation how you want and you have to carve your own route through the world
Assassin's Creed Unity – by holding down the R3 button, you could instantly remove all HUD from the map. Suddenly the bitty, frustrating, icon-filled world with objectives everywhere becomes an emergent, immersive space where you really have to use your own savvy to locate objectives and key objects. One HUD element remained: a small green or yellow hexagon showing the area of your main objective. It is literally all you need. Glorious design.
Shadow of the Colossus - as said above. There's a map on the pause screen but it's mainly aesthetic. At most it tells you where you have been. To actually navigate the world you hold your sword up and follow the beams of light.
MGSV – no minimap. All on-screen HUD. Flags up main objective but not the countless routes or side objectives/opportunities in each mission.
STALKER Call of Pripyat – has a compas at the top of your screen, and objectives are usually given to you as a 'general area'; but the game never flags up exactly where you have to go (unless it's a specific NPC you're talking to). Probably the most 'open' open world games I've ever played – you really feel like you're free to approach any situation how you want and you have to carve your own route through the world
Assassin's Creed Unity – by holding down the R3 button, you could instantly remove all HUD from the map. Suddenly the bitty, frustrating, icon-filled world with objectives everywhere becomes an emergent, immersive space where you really have to use your own savvy to locate objectives and key objects. One HUD element remained: a small green or yellow hexagon showing the area of your main objective. It is literally all you need. Glorious design.
Shadow of the Colossus - as said above. There's a map on the pause screen but it's mainly aesthetic. At most it tells you where you have been. To actually navigate the world you hold your sword up and follow the beams of light.
IIRC in Might & Magic 6 there was no GPS function, quests were like: "Get item X in Dungeon Y at west/east/north/south/near location W in region Z"
It was really awesome to find dungeons and things this way, it gave you a really great sense of exploration, but at the same time it was really frustrating to not remember which house, among the many in a big town, was the one of the guy who gave you the quest(in M&M6 you don't know how hard is a dungeon until you enter in it, so you may get a quest but not being able to do it if not after some time)
It was really awesome to find dungeons and things this way, it gave you a really great sense of exploration, but at the same time it was really frustrating to not remember which house, among the many in a big town, was the one of the guy who gave you the quest(in M&M6 you don't know how hard is a dungeon until you enter in it, so you may get a quest but not being able to do it if not after some time)
What this thread is telling me is "you should play Divinity: Original Sin, the Enhanced Edition just came out too!"
Following this same philosophy, another thing The Witcher III does that I think is terrible is the detective mode. You just press a button and follow the red trail, interacting with the red things. Of course I don't expect the game to let you determine a werewolf's age from its corpse yourself, but it's not unreasonable to ask for some involvement in the process. Instead of "this is X, go to Y to find X, if you hold L2, I'll show you exactly how to get to Y", just tell me "this is X, I think I can find more about it in Novigrad", and then let the players find out more about it. Go to the library to read about X, talk to people about X and so on.
Even combat should be tied into this. Let me get my ass handed to me on a plate if I just rush to the fight, make me do research on my enemies, talk to healers and witches, read books about it, have to buy stuff from herbalists in order to prepare the potions I'll need in combat, instead of just having the Bestiary as an optional thing, since even on Death March the game is easy enough for you to Quen your way through it.
Of course, that would be a complete change in quest design, so while I'd love it, I can understand why they didn't do it.
I do like the map, but the markers should either be 100% set by you, or at least just a big ass yellow circle around an area, and there you'll have to find your objective yourself.
Following this same philosophy, another thing The Witcher III does that I think is terrible is the detective mode. You just press a button and follow the red trail, interacting with the red things. Of course I don't expect the game to let you determine a werewolf's age from its corpse yourself, but it's not unreasonable to ask for some involvement in the process. Instead of "this is X, go to Y to find X, if you hold L2, I'll show you exactly how to get to Y", just tell me "this is X, I think I can find more about it in Novigrad", and then let the players find out more about it. Go to the library to read about X, talk to people about X and so on.
Even combat should be tied into this. Let me get my ass handed to me on a plate if I just rush to the fight, make me do research on my enemies, talk to healers and witches, read books about it, have to buy stuff from herbalists in order to prepare the potions I'll need in combat, instead of just having the Bestiary as an optional thing, since even on Death March the game is easy enough for you to Quen your way through it.
Of course, that would be a complete change in quest design, so while I'd love it, I can understand why they didn't do it.
I do like the map, but the markers should either be 100% set by you, or at least just a big ass yellow circle around an area, and there you'll have to find your objective yourself.
It absolutely is unreasonable to ask that. Well, not to ask for it, but to assume that CDPR could easily do it.
What sounds like an easy ask for us, the player, is actually a momentous task requiring hundreds (probably thousands) more hours of game design time, problem solving, and troubleshooting. If they did this then A) most quests in the game would require three or four more objective stages (lots of work), B) it would break character because Geralt already knows this stuff, C) it probably wouldn't be very fun and would break pace (travel all the way from Ard Skellige back to Novigrad to visit a library and then travel all the way back?), D) it would triple the likelihood of bugs and design mistakes, and E) to do it well it would probably need its own mechanic to be designed, possibly thousands more hours!
It's really not easy doing this shit and there are always tons more logistics involved that you or I could imagine. [Edit: also, I think the Glossary was a good in-hand way of doing this, especially around combat. Whenever I see an enemy I haven't fought in a while, I do, emergently, go to the Bestiary and remind myself how to fight it. They could have implemented more in the bestiary to improve the system - but as I say above, that probably would involve insane amounts of work, more than we expect.]
*fist bump*
In Outcast, NPC's will point you in the direction of other characters when you ask them. "I saw that talan far north of here." or when you are close "You want him right there." and point to them. It's pretty nifty and very immersive. Maybe a bit slow, but in modern games there are more resources spent on making characters and locations look unique to distinguish them, which is one thing that cuts down tedium.
Why did you cut from the quote the part I say that I understand why they didn't do it?
About B), that is done from the moment you start the game and can't do jack shit just because it's a new video game. Geralt didn't forget how to deflect arrows, but you still need to buy the skill again. So I don't think this is something that bothers CDPR. Even the way the bestiary is done in the game, this is not the first time Geralt is seeing these monsters, but you still need to read books or fight them to have their entries. They are most definitely fine with breaking character for the sake of making the game more interesting. Even when they don't, actually, because I personally feel like they locked way too much behind the skill trees in Wild Hunt, you should have more stuff when starting the game.
About C), it was just a random example, I don't mean to say that the solution to every quest in the game would be to go to Novigrad, come on.
Also, I feel like not every bit of hand holding is done just because it's more realistic to their budget, they do go out of their way to make it easier when there's no need to, like creating an auto-draw system for the swords. You have the whole thing about a Witcher using one sword for humans and animals, and another for monsters and supernatural shit in general, and the game will just pick the right one? What could be a gameplay element becomes just flavor. I use NoAutoSwordSheathe/Unsheathe/Switch, it's already a way to make me more involved in the process of being a witcher, and I love it. Never really got the wrong sword, because it's an incredibly simple mechanic, but it's already giving you control in a lore-related mechanic, instead of it being there just for the lore and no input from the player being required.
And even without completely changing the way you interact with books and shit, they could make the combat more in-character and about preparation just changing overall balance. I'm using another mod for this, and it really enhances the game to me. In my opinion, combat in The Witcher should be all about preparation, especially because the mechanics themselves are not the most refined, so when you make it all about the action, it's no wonder people complain so much about it. Flotsam in Witcher 2 is to this day my favorite bit of combat in a vanilla Witcher game. Thankfully, mods make it so I'm not forced to play vanilla Witcher games
Speaking of mods, Essenthy just released his.
As the poster above mentioned, the late-'90s game Outcast did exactly that. It's a notoriously ahead-of-its-time and underrated game. IIRC it had procedurally generated NPC dialogue and behaviours, so that people conversed with you in a dynamic way relevant to the situation (in terms of factions and where they were). So when you asked where something is, of any NPC in the game, any one of them could say 'it's over there' and give you accurate directions.
Hopefully be easy to run these days, give it a download!
Regarding the "how much effort" part of your post – an insane amount of effort to do this. You need to account for thousands of variables, eg: which one of 10,000 positions is the NPC standing in, which one of 10,000 positions is the player standing in, which one of 700 locations is the player asking about, what is the relative direction from the NPC to the location, how can the route be broken down into easy directions, etc, etc. All-in-all, probably hundreds of thousands of unique situations, possibly millions of them.
Damn straight.
Why did you cut from the quote the part I say that I understand why they didn't do it?
Sorry, I read on once halfway through writing my post and saw that you did say this. First half of your post seemed to suggest it would be easy - my bad.
Re B) the skill tree thing is true, although that's not true of every aspect of Geralt's knowledge. They keep it pretty tight when it comes to his knowledge of monster lore. Eg you don't need skills/items to learn more about monsters. He always knows. Comes up in convo all the time. The Bestiary only shows you monsters you need to encounter in a quest – in my experience, you don't need to read anything or fight them for them to show up. The Bestiary is just empty until a monster is going to appear in a quest, eg a Contract, and then you get all the info you need in the Bestiary (Geralt just calls it up). I recall reading books helps but it isn't necessary at all?
Re C) I understand, but it would have to be something similar for many times you do tracking quests. I suppose they could pre-empt it by having you do research before you reach the 'Detective' part, but it would just add more bloat and break the pace.
They might do something way better in Cyberpunk 2077, who knows!
SprachBrooks
Member
I personally think Batman's guidance system is ideal.
Fbh
Member
This is one of my big issues with open world games.
They try to sell me the concept of this big expansive world to explore but then 99% of them come down to "follow the waypoint".
I really liked the Witcher 3 and can't say enough how much I loved the side content in that game. But even there, it mostly comes down to talk to person --> Follow your medieval GPS. It has a beautiful world of impressive size and lots of cool places to visit, but a sense of exploration? not really.
Which is just another reason why I still think souls design is some of the best in the industry. The maps of Dark Souls or Bloodborne might not be able to brag about an impressive number of square miles. Yet the feeling of actual exploration in those games destroys most giant open worlds
They try to sell me the concept of this big expansive world to explore but then 99% of them come down to "follow the waypoint".
I really liked the Witcher 3 and can't say enough how much I loved the side content in that game. But even there, it mostly comes down to talk to person --> Follow your medieval GPS. It has a beautiful world of impressive size and lots of cool places to visit, but a sense of exploration? not really.
Which is just another reason why I still think souls design is some of the best in the industry. The maps of Dark Souls or Bloodborne might not be able to brag about an impressive number of square miles. Yet the feeling of actual exploration in those games destroys most giant open worlds
DeVeAn
Member
You describe Shenmue. Go play it.
It's also worth saying: They still have some of the best open world quests out there. I'm more talking to myself out loud about "how cool would it be..." than really criticizing the game, at this point.
pillowtalk
Member
Why even have nice graphics in games when we're all just looking at the minimap.
TerryLee81
Member
You can do that in TW3, you can turn off quest markers, points of interest, mini map etc.
OP's problem is that once you've turned everything off it's hard to navigate the world, find quest locations etc.
Dirtyshubb
Member
After starting Blooodborne I realised how dependant I had become on using maps to navigate around the world, took a little while for me to acclimatise to having to do it all in my head but it really helped me appreciate the game that much more. I learned to know every section of the game, being able to navigate from any one place to another instead of knowing the basics but not being able to recognise every section just from memory like with most other games.
It was one of the reasons that Bloodborne is in my top 3 of 2015 (Witcher 3 and Arkham Knight the others), made me work for my enjoyment and I really appreciate it.
It was one of the reasons that Bloodborne is in my top 3 of 2015 (Witcher 3 and Arkham Knight the others), made me work for my enjoyment and I really appreciate it.
This bit about GPS seems true to me. After 50 or maybe even 20 hours, having to follow vague directions to locate any small thing in a huge ass world would have more than worn out its welcome (I think a shorter game would easily be able to get away with it though, and possibly make it very fun -- see The Vanishing of Ethan Carter which is purely exploration and navigating using environmental clues).
I'm curious to see how it will be done in Kingdom Come, which is set in a mostly local area. It makes more sense to follow directions in a confined, more realistic environment compared to the abstract super sized worlds of some RPG's.
I think more fun could be had with maps, though. The maps in Thief are great because they're at best sketches of layouts and sometimes just vague notions of "prison cells on dungeon level 3, catacombs below". That leaves a lot for the player to fill in themselves, while still having rough aids about where they are. Maybe a big RPG with a very sketchy map could be cool? Locations could be marked approximately and the "general area" you are in currently highlighted.
Or maybe it wouldn't work. It's fun to theorycraft but sometimes cool ideas (like food reserves, heh) just don't work out in a meaningful way ingame.
Another victim of voice acting in games.
If I'm going to a well known location, I'd rather have a quest marker. I don't need to see my character going around asking for directions to the Goose and Fox, any more than I need to tell my character when to go pee.
If the location is supposed to be obscure, then there shouldn't be a marker. Though there might be something to show the general vicinity.
If the location is supposed to be obscure, then there shouldn't be a marker. Though there might be something to show the general vicinity.
There's definetly a middle ground to be had here. It's just a bit ironic that these huge world have become very popular, in part because of the sense of adventure you get out of them, but in practice you never get lost and you never have to look for things.
I think there's a lot of players that would be fine witht he game asking some thinking and degree of involvment of the player. But maybe there aren't enough for these huge games.
old manatee
Banned
It seems like gamers have spoken, and what they want is a huge arrow that points directly to your destination with no risk of exploration along the way.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Everything you're saying sounds okay in a shorter, more linear game.
But add all that stuff to a title that's already easily 50-100 hours, if not more, and you've got a game that just becomes a chore.
Tevious
Member
I hear you OP. I hate quests that pinpoint everything you need to know on the map. It makes the quest dialog completely irrelevant and turns it into a boring chore. It's what I absolutely hate about MMOs these days. I kind of feel it insults my intelligence. I'd rather they give hints/clues and let me figure it out myself. Then quests actually feel satisfying.
Giving me flashbacks to my early MMO days.
Click NPC.
/where <other npc>
NPC points in their general direction if they're nearby (roughly the same 'block'), shrugs if they're not.
I mean forget dialogue, just having them point in the general direction would be useful. Have it show up as a dialogue choice saying "I'm looking for <x>. Do you know where <they are>/<it is>?" and have the voiced dialogue be something generic like "I'm looking for <someone>/<something>. Can you help me?", then have the NPC gesture/indicate a general direction. No need for tons of specialized dialogue, no super complicated coding. If you want to get more nuanced, go for it, but I'd take this over magic map markers. I mean, If the PC is from or is supposed to know the area, that's fine, go for a HUD indicator or magic map marker.
Also I think you should need to buy maps and, at least in a fantasy setting game and unless the map is also magic, any markers that are set on them are permanent. If your map gets too cluttered, buy a new map.
Click NPC.
/where <other npc>
NPC points in their general direction if they're nearby (roughly the same 'block'), shrugs if they're not.
I mean forget dialogue, just having them point in the general direction would be useful. Have it show up as a dialogue choice saying "I'm looking for <x>. Do you know where <they are>/<it is>?" and have the voiced dialogue be something generic like "I'm looking for <someone>/<something>. Can you help me?", then have the NPC gesture/indicate a general direction. No need for tons of specialized dialogue, no super complicated coding. If you want to get more nuanced, go for it, but I'd take this over magic map markers. I mean, If the PC is from or is supposed to know the area, that's fine, go for a HUD indicator or magic map marker.
Also I think you should need to buy maps and, at least in a fantasy setting game and unless the map is also magic, any markers that are set on them are permanent. If your map gets too cluttered, buy a new map.
eot
Banned
The best game for this was DayZ on servers that had the auto-GPS turned off. That was basically an orienteering simulator and it was awesome.
You always end up being chased by cliff racers, no matter what.
You always end up being chased by cliff racers, no matter what.
SolidusDave
Member
I like wordmaps, but I wish Fallout 4 would have dialed down the quest markers a bit.
It's fine if NPCs send you to a specific location (it could be implied that they point it out on your own map etc.) but if a quest is about "yo, find me a signed baseball, glove etc.", it should not point you directly towards the item in question.
Would work fine for such small side quest because it doesn't matter if you ever stumble over the stuff the guy is looking for.
Even for main quests located in buildings they could just send you on a treasure hunt once you're there.
To be fair, you can manually hide the markers etc. but they often don't give you enough information to locate something otherwise.
Some of the non-quest stuff does it right. E.g. you can read about some family's pre-war bunker and where it should be, along with the information that the if the electricity fails, the door will be locked by vacuum. It's all in one location but you have to figure it out by yourself w/o any markers whatsoever.
It's fine if NPCs send you to a specific location (it could be implied that they point it out on your own map etc.) but if a quest is about "yo, find me a signed baseball, glove etc.", it should not point you directly towards the item in question.
Would work fine for such small side quest because it doesn't matter if you ever stumble over the stuff the guy is looking for.
Even for main quests located in buildings they could just send you on a treasure hunt once you're there.
To be fair, you can manually hide the markers etc. but they often don't give you enough information to locate something otherwise.
Some of the non-quest stuff does it right. E.g. you can read about some family's pre-war bunker and where it should be, along with the information that the if the electricity fails, the door will be locked by vacuum. It's all in one location but you have to figure it out by yourself w/o any markers whatsoever.
Sunset Samurai
Member
User 479360
Banned
I don't mind being led from place to place, looking at markers on maps or using mini-maps. To each their own, I guess.
I simply don't like getting lost and struggling to find something for hours.
I simply don't like getting lost and struggling to find something for hours.
silvermember
Banned
No, what people want is to have fun not have unnecessary amount of frustration when playing a game.
I am kinda glad developers don't take the advice from gaf. I don't need to annoy myself wasting time just because of immersion which is ultimately pointless considering you are playing with a controller.
ViciousAnchovy
Member
It is. I haven't played as much of Morrowind as I would like to see how I care for that way of doing things. The idea does definitely appeal to me somewhat, so I can at least understand the OP's point of view a little bit.
Can't say I think that minimaps go so far as to destroy my sense of immersion, though. I do get being annoyed by having to look at a corner of the screen all the time, but I feel like having a big compass bar at the bottom of the screen with waypoint icons that appear as you face them works well. Hasn't been a distraction in Fallout 4, at least. It was a bit of a nuisance in Borderlands, though, because the maps had a habit of looping around a bunch, and you couldn't simply follow the waypoint.
Birgitte2004
Member
I always think of this as a simple abstraction. The reason a point appears on your map is because the guy did tell you where it was. They just didn't have to text it/speak it out.
If you assume you have a map to begin with (which even in a game like the Witcher seems reasonable), someone who actually knows where something is pointing at it on the map makes more sense to me than giving you vague "west of here" type directions.
Especially as the Witcher has quests where you don't know exactly where you are going when it makes sense to.
If you assume you have a map to begin with (which even in a game like the Witcher seems reasonable), someone who actually knows where something is pointing at it on the map makes more sense to me than giving you vague "west of here" type directions.
Especially as the Witcher has quests where you don't know exactly where you are going when it makes sense to.
This is a really good idea, OP.
I remember playing Morrowind and I had some quest where they just gave me a general description of the area where I would find the location I was looking for and I just had to go and look for it. Those were the days.
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