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Now that the dust is settled, Quiet's probably the most embarrassing gaming character
- Thread starter ZombiePlatypus
- Start date
AC: Syndicate spoilers:
What about Lydia Frye? She was better than either of the twins for her brief time on screen.
The best Assassin's Creed side characters are better than the main characters by far, Ezio excluded. Haytham, Roth, Adewale, Elise...they are great.
Evie's problems are being half of a dual protagonist setup. She had to the be the "down to business" one. The relationship between the two leads in Syndicate, despite being the only game that immediately comes to mind with instantly-swappable player-character twins, is still somehow very rote.
It's like after they decided to do the twin thing, someone asked "So, what's the story with these two?" and another person said "I dunno, one's brash, one's serious, and then there's a rift between them they patch it up later?" and everyone agreed that that was enough, despite being the most obvious possible thing.
Thank goodness you don't have that power to choose then.
She wasn't even unique, she was a walking stereotype of trite writing (rape as 'empowerment', stockholm syndrome, etc.). Nothing about her was interesting. She's just like every other piece of eye-candy in gaming that reduces women to such boring roles.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Quiet has virtually no characterization through her body movements, she makes virtually the same expression in all of her scenes. I can watch AC Syndicate cutscenes and get a ton of expressions out of both the twins. Evie is also not a boilerplate "strong female" because she's actually competent and never sexualized. That "man hater" comment is ridiculous too. It's no wonder the character who's constantly sexualized, never talks back to anyone, and is a borderline trophy who doesn't act like an actual person in anyway shape or form but a feitshistic depiction of women would be more considered more interesting for a medium notorious for similar depictions of women.
Exactly. She barely has a personality besides the same types of tropes that always come from eye candy characters meant to be trophies. Meanwhile how many games have a scene that even remotely resembles legitimate sibling teasing
Alkastelca
Member
Whatever.
Kojima himself said Quiet needs to be 'more erotic' to encourage cosplay.
And oh, boy, he was right:
I don't get it why this is such a problem. It's his story & vision after all, some people need to grow up.
Kojima himself said Quiet needs to be 'more erotic' to encourage cosplay.
And oh, boy, he was right:
I don't get it why this is such a problem. It's his story & vision after all, some people need to grow up.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Going "tit for tat" is mature, then?
Finale Fireworker
Member
https://twitter.com/lara_boss145/status/680721160695320576
Man. I've stayed out of posting in this thread, but seeing this picture on Twitter really exemplifies the sentiment: Quiet is such a juvenile embarrassment.
Like, this is such a problem.
I guess you haven't played MGS2
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
That's a cool image, thanks for sharing!
https://twitter.com/lara_boss145/status/680721160695320576
Man. I've stayed out of posting in this thread, but seeing this picture on Twitter really exemplifies the sentiment: Quiet is such a juvenile embarrassment.
Like, this is such a problem.
GavinUK86
Member
https://twitter.com/lara_boss145/status/680721160695320576
Man. I've stayed out of posting in this thread, but seeing this picture on Twitter really exemplifies the sentiment: Quiet is such a juvenile embarrassment.
Like, this is such a problem.
Quiet looks awesome.
Adry9
Member
I don't get it why this is such a problem.
I don't get it why this is such a problem.
I don't get it why this is such a problem.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I have read pretty much this entire thread. I have read defenses and explanations for Quiet extending as far as her reveal to our current post mortem. I have taken into account various cultural perspectives and thought critically about different understandings of sexuality and characterization in all kinds of art and stories.
I have tried looking at Quiet through the lens of commentary. Through the possibility of comedy. As an attempt at subversion. I have even tried to accept the validity of a character designed exclusively to conjure elections out of male viewers, or to encourage sexy cosplay among female fans (which is deeply problematic on its own).
No matter which way I try to look at it, or how many people I hear out, or which perspective I try to adopt, there is no explanation or justification for Quiet that reads anything other than misplaced gender politics and sexism.
Quiet is so everything wrong with the depiction of women in games. So much so that I entertained that Kojima must be trying to say something about this degrading trope. Like, this must be social commentary. This must be an instance where Kojima is using exemplary visual language to somehow advocate the inverse.
But this isn't Money for Nothing. This isn't the mirror scene from The 25th Hour. Quiet doesn't say anything. Literally.
Seeing the picture I shared above just drives that home for me. Quiet is the worst kind of female characterization. Maybe even the worst I've ever seen. And this is a bizarre tragedy, because Metal Gear as a series used to be famous for its strong female characters. Ambitious women soldiers, brilliant scientists, professional analysts, and the entire narrative was set into motion by The Boss. Metal Gear's rounded and accomplished STEM women all had stories and personalities and were exemplary characterizations for positive gender representation, especially relative to the eras many of the Metal Gear games were released in.
But not Quiet. Quiet will forever weigh opposite on the scale, along with that one contact in MGS1 who didn't do her job because she was obsessed with shopping, against all the positive representation the Metal Gear series has accomplished over the last twenty years.
And I think that's a damn shame.
User 73706
Banned
WHAT
GavinUK86
Member
You keep saying something is so wrong about that image but you're not saying what that is.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I just said it's a cool image and appreciate having seen it, gosh. No need to go in circles any longer than the thread already has.
You're right, me calling out the insulting nature of that kind of attitude ONE TIME for the dozens of times it's happened in this thread makes me just as bad as someone who doesn't like that I don't like something.
Like c'mon dude.
Your glib attitude toward that image and the subsequent posts about the image certainly doesn't help your case.
The natural response to someone disliking sexual fucking objectification of women should not be immediate dismissal based on arguments or accusations such as: "immaturity", or "thin skin", or "this isn't the worst I've seen". EDIT: Forgot "puritanical" which is just hahaha wow.
And yet it is, and has been!, many many times in this thread, and will continue to be elsewhere, and and and.
It's not good.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I was just saying going "No, you're immature!" seems ironic.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Well, you sure showed them!
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Why do people think this is an excuse for bullshit? Like, seriously, how does it make blatant sexism okay?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The racism and xenophobia in Lovecraft stories should not be criticized, it's part of his creative vision after all!
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
Quiet was a horrible character and even worse, she's a sniper and should have been made into a Sniper Wolf type character instead as that would have been better.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Because Quiet is literally insulted in the game for being a woman. Totally comparable to Lovecrafts open racism.
Roran Stehl
Member
Don't hesitate to post here for a more meta less specific discussion.
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1161497
A question worth exploring: why is sexism more an issue than violence?
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1161497
A question worth exploring: why is sexism more an issue than violence?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Huh?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
So why are you bringing up Lovecraft?
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Unfortunate that thread kind of died on its arse because given the nature of criticism common on GAF you'd expect such a discussion to go on for a bit longer.
unknownhero
Member
Yeah, quiet is a fan service character all around. Wasted potential because Kojima had something on his mind(take a guess what that was). However, it is his right to design a character how he wants just as it's our right to critique it and boycott said game(or his next one).
Stallion Dan
Member
I thought every character in MGSV was equally crap and shadows of their former appearances. Quiet probably was the best character, not that that is saying much.
I don't really think the costume design was bad, that is whatever in the MGS series and fantasy/sci-fi in general, but stuff like the shower scene, the positions in the ACC and the rain scene were just straight up embarassing to watch.
I don't really think the costume design was bad, that is whatever in the MGS series and fantasy/sci-fi in general, but stuff like the shower scene, the positions in the ACC and the rain scene were just straight up embarassing to watch.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yes, Kojima is sexist with his recent depictions of women in metal gear. FFS he allows you to collect a moe poster of someone who was raped and then had a bomb shoved up her vagina. Quite frankly it's borderline disturbing at this point.
Nowadays you can find a lot better examples of character design in fantasy/scifi than Quiet.
This isn't an excuse, this will never be an excuse.
I guess our definitions of sexism must be rather different. I'm not sure a sexist author would create a character who's a badass sniper.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Someone defended Kojima's sexist creations by saying "it's his vision", as if that could shut down all discussion. So I made an analogy.
Hope this helps.
I think your tag should be changed to Stage 1.
Camp Freddie
Member
I'm sure he has a lot of female friends too. And loves his mum.
A badass sniper can still be massively sexist, in case that is not obvious.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
On Lovecraft and racism, it is definitely open for critique but I don't think an apt comparision here. Quiet occurred in spite of many different raised awareness, movements, and contrasts in what the series has demonstrated and is more alienating because of what the series has already accomplished, it's dissapointing and more so because of the day and age we're in when we really should work to better understand and represent each other. Lovecraft's open racism was from an era we understood less and open segregation was a thing. He wasn't coming from an era of understanding each other better and didn't come from a background of stronger black characters, or made his characters in the thought of hoping african americans took after his characters. It's dissapointibg especially since Lovecraft's works deconstructed other social aspects of society at the time and talks about the insignificance of humans as a whole, and it's rightfully analyzed and deconstructed in the modern era where his works are still influential. But we're critically analyzing a work that's a 100 years old now and unfortunately our ancestor's didn't critique the work on the same merits back in the day. MGSV is quite recent and it's more dissapointing because it's unsatisfactory even through a modern lens. Many have come to better understand other people different than ourselves and are rightfully more critical and aware of roles, tropes, stereotypes, and many mediums of entertainment have been established and developed, leading us to be able to further critique and evolve the medium, including in broader representation. Critique is welcome, but I think the Quiet/Lovecraft comparision is a bit odd is mainly what I'm trying to say. One should critique and anaylze things to make things evolve and get better moving forward, but both are very different situations that I find hard to compare outside of the simple fact they're both grossly misrepresenting an actual person and portraying a tried stereotype rather than a person. But they come from very different sources and very different eras, not to free one from critique, but does create a very different scenario due to time and understanding mainly. Lovecraft can also never hear our critiques and is a relic of his era, while Kojima and his team are very much alive and should 'know better,' but more so should aim higher and better than empty sexualized stereotypes like Quiet.
(This was typed on mobile, which I'm a bit trash at, so sorry for typos.)
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
A sexist makes a female character do whatever he wants her to do. Making a character powerful doesn't mean that the treatment of the character isn't sexist in anyway shape or form. Or did you miss the part where nearly every single scantily dressed comic book character also had absolutely ridiculous outfits and contorted spines until recently, and even then, there a still a shit ton of characters
-The cinematography focuses on her and every other female's body in the vast majority of their scenes even during torture and rape sequences compared to male characters
-Every pertinent woman character in the game is scantily dressed while male characters are dressed thematically appropriately
-Both scantily clad female characters had rape used as a plot development device
-the scantily dressed character was made that way specifically to encourage cosplay and figure sales, and her alternate costumes consist of trophy colors
-The character barely has a personality besides incredibly contrived actions that make little sense under scrutiny because the design came before the personality was established
This is without regarding the B&B corps in MGS4 who were tortured souls that players were allowed to oogle at. Dude is sexist man. And you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of sexism if you think that power undermines any of the above or that just because a writer wrote a character with power that he's not sexist. I mean that's blatantly disregarding so many pieces of media that it seems willfully ignorant at best. I mean ffs the image above is a perfect example of it.
... Dude are you for real?
lmfao perfect
I don't know, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I adhere to Leet's thinking and definition - that is the gender-based equivalent of racism - and not the more recent variations that seem to imply that anything that doesn't fit within the lines of a very strict set of criterias is sexist.
I mean by the same logic pretty much any fashion magazines - the vast majority of which are staffed by women - are sexist because they're full of pictures of scantily clad women often in "suggestive poses". Or someone like JK Rowling is sexist because there's a female character that doesn't care about sports, when you know, that's a classic sexist view that sports are for boys. Etc.
So no, I don't think Kojima is sexist because of Quiet, and especially since he's one of few devs who have created a lot of prominent female characters, and very diverse ones on top of that.
I mean by the same logic pretty much any fashion magazines - the vast majority of which are staffed by women - are sexist because they're full of pictures of scantily clad women often in "suggestive poses". Or someone like JK Rowling is sexist because there's a female character that doesn't care about sports, when you know, that's a classic sexist view that sports are for boys. Etc.
So no, I don't think Kojima is sexist because of Quiet, and especially since he's one of few devs who have created a lot of prominent female characters, and very diverse ones on top of that.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
It also shows you exactly what she'd be like now in a more convincing dissociative state of dysfunction than any other game has ever even hinted at. Games in general haven't even gotten to "I don't understand, why don't they just leave?" Lifetime, PG sugarcoating yet.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Alright, none of those examples are equivalent to the treatment of Quiet and other women in MGSV. Hermione not liking sports isn't sexist, it's not an important aspect of her character, especially since she does enjoy watching the "sports" her friends play. Quiet is basically textbook sexism in terms of video games. And Kojima's treatment of women peaked at the boss and went downhill from there. He's done less for the representation of women in games than better in recent times and it doesn't look like he's going to improve anytime unless Sony straight up tells him no.
Bloodborne already accomplished this earlier in the year, (others too), without dressing them up in fetishized versions of hospital gowns.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
The problem that people are running into again and again (and this isn't just about you, Raist, just quoting you because it's the most appropriate point to jump off of) is that no work short of literal propaganda is ever purely in favour of or opposed to any one "-ism" and getting hung up on whether it is will just lead to an endless back and forth between people interpreting it through the lens of whatever such "-ism" they care about. This goes both for saying Quiet is somehow sexist (not even gonna address personal attacks) or that Quiet is some badass sex-positive empowered female because the game offers enough ground for both (and many more) interpretations. Which is unfortunate because the majority of this thread and others like these have been going in circles never advancing past the "No, but I have the correctest interpretation!"-phase.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Well, its a false equivalence. Lovecraft, to put it bluntly, was a racist in and out of his creative works. When Lovecraft wrote his views into his stories, for those instances it was his own racist, social commentary. You could excise what he said about colored people, and about how his characters were in multi-ethnic communities and the stories would be better for it. I shouldnt have to spell out the differences between Lovecrafts works and how his own racist views tainted his works, and how Kojimas biggest err with Quiet was her dress and how the camera focuses on her in some scenes.
But alas, this thread isnt about Lovecraft. I can criticize him for days about his views. But to equate someones defense of Kojima to Lovecraft is a bit folly, wouldnt you agree?
Dunno, I think Meryl, Mei, Naomi and Sunny were awesome.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
You'll have to explain that one to me and show me something. I doubt I can find something in the grotesque dreamscape of Bloodborne that better parallels the psychologically broken women and men I've spent a lot of my life with. If you're going to pick something more grounded, just remember that like every Burning Bed since the 70's, it's probably kept restrained for the sake of being believable and tolerable to the uninitiated who'd sooner reject it as exaggerated, or as an exception to the rule.
John Kowalski
Banned
The Boss' saving grace was that she played the role of a mother. Any other and she wouldn't be distinguishable from any other Kojima female character.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I think people like to overestimate The Boss a bit. Not that I don't like her, she's a great character, but not as special as people make her out to be and her actual role isn't even that important. It's the people misunderstanding her who are the actual crux of the MGSverse.
Huh? Quiet isn't really the norm when we're talking about female characters designed by Kojima. Sniper Wolf, Meryl, E.E, Fortune, Naomi, Eva, Rose, Boss... All pretty normal, sometimes even great, characters.
The turn toward weird pandering and fanservice happened sometime between MGS3 and MGS4. Sure, there's always been some silly cleavage or whatever, but by videogame standards, most of Kojima's female characters are pretty cool. I won't defend the B&B unit though, that was some weird shit. MGS4 is the point where things got out of hand.
Maybe by that time, Kojima was so bored of the series he had to bring hot ladies in for motion capturing just to make it through the day.
