Crossing Eden
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Yes. It's one of the most important parts because everyone's lightsaber is completely unique to them. They literally have to sense the way it'll look.
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
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The One and Done
Member
Is this revealed in the OT somewhere.
plasmawave
Banned
The One and Done;190642451 said:
No.
I don't think it's talked about too much in the OT, but it is in the prequels a bit, when they go through some of the motions of Jedi training. It's also in basically all other sw media I've consumed that touches the subject of light sabers and Jedi. Choosing the parts and putting it together is a milestone in your Jedi training.The One and Done;190642451 said:
The lightsaber is often described as close to impossible to use for any extended time to a non force sensitive person, or even a non Jedi, force sensitive or no. You might have heard grumblings from some on how Finn/Rey shouldn't stand a chance against Ben, because it's assumed that using a lightsaber was a part of his training under Luke, and anyone not trained shouldn't have any idea how to really use a lightsaber.
Mind you, a lot of this context was recently declared non cannon, so not sure where to go from there.
Just_myles
Member
I had a lot of problems with this film but, I can easily let those go(yes even the Phasma scene). But, the duel at the very end I just can't do it. Maybe i'm an idiot for not being able to pick up on Ren's distress of having killed his father and taking a shot to get the gut but, skill is skill. He should have had no problems dispatching Finn and Rey. Simple for me. If anything it should have been quicker and more violent.
I am willing to admit that I have been trained to believe that lightsaber skills come from force ability. Predictability. Plus some athleticism. That's the one thing the prequels did really well and it did not translate here(understandable).
Anyway, I hope they find a really good way of explaining what happened during this fight in the crawl of the next movie. I hope they bring back flashy lightsaber battles.
I am willing to admit that I have been trained to believe that lightsaber skills come from force ability. Predictability. Plus some athleticism. That's the one thing the prequels did really well and it did not translate here(understandable).
Anyway, I hope they find a really good way of explaining what happened during this fight in the crawl of the next movie. I hope they bring back flashy lightsaber battles.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I'm arguing that the "work harder"/Mary Sue/overpowered complaints are really just about setup/foreshadowing/structure issues. Whether Neo (or Luke) actually worked harder or suffered more than Rey isn't the issue, those scripts conveyed the build up enough that the audience by and large never thought about about it.
Good setup/build up = audience accepts climax/payoff
Ok setup/build up = less of the audience accepts it.
Obviously the above relies heavily on the subjective, and if the movie completely works for you as written, that's fine. It largely works for me too...but I can see where some degree of the Mary Sue complaints are coming from, even if I don't completely agree.
And I'm totally for us using the evidence as presented in the film to judge it, hence why I feel having to use the novelization, tie-in journal, JJ interview, or the eventual sequel to explain away compliants shows flaws in the script.
(Lastly, I apologize for ignoring the Rey/sexism stuff, while I feel it likely plays some part, from my personal experience on theforce.net back when the prequels came out, people had similar discussions about Anakin.)
I think this is a central problem with the current discussion. Both sides are arguing past each other.
I mentioned this earlier and couldn't get the other side to respond:
The core of the issue is writing, not "Mary Sueness."
As for Rey criticism being grounded in sexism:
heliosRAzi
Banned
What they'll respond with is that it'll be explained later on. It's BS, but that's what they've been saying. Abrams is suspending our suspension of disbelief to another movie. It's basically "lots of speculation from everyone."
They had so many options to make it more believable, but like you said, they wanted to do other things at the expense of her character. People say that she knew about the Force from the legends because of that one line she says to Solo. To me, if she had been recounting these legends to other orphaned kids or an older person telling her or reading it to herself or even making lightsaber noises while practicing fighting, it would have been a better justification for her knowing the JMT.
The sexism accusations are just from people trying to shutdown the conversation. Most of them are just drive-by posts. They won't come back and explain why it's sexist. They'll say that there wasn't much uproar when it came to other movies that had male leads and we'll point out male Mary Sues and nothing will come of it.
In the Before the Awakening book there is a good part dedicated to the melee training Finn goes through right before his first real assignments. He is actually described as being one of the best Stormtroopers cadets (the top 1%) and one of the best even in melee.
Nobody was talking about how this or that blockbuster male hero was a Marty Stu until people started wondering if the constant diminishing of Rey as a supposed Mary Sue was motivated by the fact that she was a woman. It's revisionist history at best.
heliosRAzi
Banned
They were, you just never saw it. Max Landis, the guy who started it all, talked about Mary Sues well before TFA released such as John McClane post Vengeance. People talked about Kirito from Sword Art Online being a Mary Sue. It's out there. Some people just don't like those types of characters in general.
Are you seriously saying that because you didn't see something, it never happened...? That's pretty crazy, haha.
Anyway, I've found this type of criticism occurs w/r/t men far more than women. Of course, there are more male leads, so that would make sense. Still, no one can say that men escape this type of criticism.
And even here, though, with Rey, there are very good and well reasoned criticisms against Rey's powering up that have nothing to do with her being a woman.
I read the the OP and skimmed through other posts. An interesting conversation. My thoughts on the Jedi we've seen including Rey bring me to the stories of King Arthur and the KOTRT. Many great and powerful knights but most had personality flaws, some deep. There were however a couple peerless knights; perfect in mind, body, and spirit. They weren't the most powerful but they had the qualities to pass any test. That's what I think we're dealing with when it comes to Rey. We'll see.
Just home from the cinema after my first viewing. Great OP. Sums up how I feel perfectly.
Also as dad to girls aged three and five year thinking about how much they're going to like Rey was a massive bonus. Maybe one day Christmas afternoon will be spent building a lego millennium falcon instead of Frozen palaces.
Giant thread to try and get caugh up on though!
Also as dad to girls aged three and five year thinking about how much they're going to like Rey was a massive bonus. Maybe one day Christmas afternoon will be spent building a lego millennium falcon instead of Frozen palaces.
Giant thread to try and get caugh up on though!
I kinda feel like lightsaber fighting was clearly and objectively presented as an extension of how good you are with the force in the OT. Ben Kenobi didn't give Luke drills -- he blindfolded him.
That's why Luke was good at everything in the OT.
He blows up the Death Star w the force -- not years of training.
That's why Luke was good at everything in the OT.
He blows up the Death Star w the force -- not years of training.
Christberg
Member
The way I see it, Rey didn't beat Kylo. Kylo beat himself. The thing about the force is that mastering it means mastering your own emotional and spiritual state. This is true whether it's the light side of the force or the dark side. Kylo is in a compromised state, being angry, sad, triumphant and overconfident all at the same time. He's also physically compromised. In the midst of this, Rey is experiencing a spiritual awakening.
Kylo has far superior training and skills but it all means nothing because his head and heart aren't in the game.
Don't be shocked if they reprise this fight in the next film and he comes out completely dominant and intimidating.
Seeing the character in question as a Mary Sue type just doesn't fit here.
Kylo has far superior training and skills but it all means nothing because his head and heart aren't in the game.
Don't be shocked if they reprise this fight in the next film and he comes out completely dominant and intimidating.
Seeing the character in question as a Mary Sue type just doesn't fit here.
Starsailor
Banned
For the xxxx time, Kylo awake the Force in Rey. If he didn't captured her, she wouldn't be able to fought against him
She uses it to sense Luke's call in V, but yeah, she's criminally underutilized. This is mostly due to the fact that Lucas didn't decide she would be Luke's sister from the outset.
LegendofLex
Member
She wasn't doing much better than Finn until she started Force-meditating.
She is force sensitive, and you see that when Han dies - she feels it immediately. Generally in the star wars universe, not everyone who is force sensitive goes sith/jedi - I think the reality is the 'majority' of those who are force sensitive aren't either - the force helps them read people, or helps them be a bit more athletic or helps with their 'gut' instincts. So just her role as general and her success at such might be a product of the force - that being said, the only case of her overtly being force sensitive is the Han solo dying thing.
I wonder if they'll explore other force sensitive cultures and institutions in the SW universe.
edit: Just noticed you said "ROTJ" for some reason I assumed it was FA you were talking about.
Luke spends years of training inbetween IV and V before he faces Vadar. Yes the Force makes a big difference in the duels, but it still requires years of training.
I've no problem with Rey being a bad ass with the light sabre, My big problem is with how satisfactory it was.
Her character arc is way too flat. The awaking force does not seem to have much of an effect on her character. She has only token internal conflict, that does not effect the plot in any way. She has no flaws really. I like her, but that doesn't make for a satisfying character arc. She is a pretty competent character from the start, good at mechanics, flying ships, fighting. Then the force awakens and she seems to be an instant Jedi. If they had developed a few flaws she had to work through people would not be complaining as much methinks.
Luke goes from whinny farm boy to someone gaining belief in himself and his abilities and the arc continues through out the later films as he struggles against the dark side and his family revelations.
funkystudent
Member
While I do agree the character is hilariously OP and the most boring kind of strong female character and feels more like the hero of a Bioware game then someone actual writers created, my friends 9 year old sister loves her now and I totally see what they where going for.
Rey isnt for me. Rey is for kids who dont expect a lot of depth out of their characters and a super calculated way to get young girls into Star Wars. Thats cool and its part of the tricky balance you got to have with a movie like this which needs to pander to older people who grew up on this stuff have have more mature tastes and kids who you want to catch now so they grow up on this stuff.
Rey isnt for me. Rey is for kids who dont expect a lot of depth out of their characters and a super calculated way to get young girls into Star Wars. Thats cool and its part of the tricky balance you got to have with a movie like this which needs to pander to older people who grew up on this stuff have have more mature tastes and kids who you want to catch now so they grow up on this stuff.
She's used it in some way in almost every movie she's in.
She heard Luke calling out to her under Cloud City in V.
She 'felt' that Luke was not on the Death Star when it blew up in VI.
She sensed Han's death in VII.
No, it was a niche discussion that you weren't apart of. Now because everyone wants to talk about Starwars, and #LOLGENDERWARS is a huge deal on the internet and only the internet, that's why it's gotten so big.
I don't think Rey is overpowered but I can certainly understand why people think she is.
The movie left it ambiguous on purpose and actually went out of it's way to not explicitly talk about Rey's origins. So I will side with not Luke's daughter.
funkystudent
Member
Yeah. Same.
I feel like its clearly the obvious idea and it was teased in one of the trailers with Luke doing the "The force is strong in my family" speech that wasnt even in the movie.
I guess the fact they didnt commit to that in TFA probably means they are thinking of going elsewhere but kicked the ball forward a movie.
The first one paralleled ANH so well I'm expecting the big revel about her father at the end of the next movie. If not Luke, who? There is no reason to leave it ambiguous if it isn't someone we know.
Edit: I guess her being Obi-Wan's granddaughter would be interesting. it was his voice speaking to her with Luke's lightsaber right? Then we'd have Luke training the grandaughter of the person who trained his father helping her fight his nephew.
Throw in the fact that they originally were looking to cast a Kenobi kid and Obi Wan's voice appearing in her vision (there really isn't much of a reason for it if she is Luke's kid), that's where I want to place my money at least. It's just enough of a subversion that can be a nice surprise.
Megidolaon
Member
Saw the movie today, thought it was pretty decent I guess.
Didn't like Rey. Had the personality of a wet noodle. Cardboard acting, too.
As a power fantasy for little girls, she's a good character. Plenty of bland male characters who are just ways for kids to project on, nothing wrong with that. Girls deserve strong characters.
But I thought she was a shitty character. And kinda sue-ish, even though I hate that term.
Finn had marginally more personality, but ultimately it was kinda lame to me how he kinda became instantly smitten with Rey, felt kinda forced.
Eh, I'm not gonna give a character a free pass for being boring just cause she's a woman, even though I'm a woman who would love more interesting female leads.
Didn't like Rey. Had the personality of a wet noodle. Cardboard acting, too.
As a power fantasy for little girls, she's a good character. Plenty of bland male characters who are just ways for kids to project on, nothing wrong with that. Girls deserve strong characters.
But I thought she was a shitty character. And kinda sue-ish, even though I hate that term.
Finn had marginally more personality, but ultimately it was kinda lame to me how he kinda became instantly smitten with Rey, felt kinda forced.
Eh, I'm not gonna give a character a free pass for being boring just cause she's a woman, even though I'm a woman who would love more interesting female leads.
I honestly thought the actor for Rey did a great job, I just felt like she didn't have much to work with. They gave Finn all the better more interesting scenes and lines. When I try to think of like... Good dialogue from Rey I draw an immediate blank, but with Finn or even Ben/Ren, they had a few good moments. Finn when he's talking about getting the fuck out of dodge for example, Ben when he's talking to his dad on the bridge... I honestly can't think of anything for Ren.
Megidolaon
Member
Yeah, Im not saying shes a bad actress, but the script gave her nothing to work with. Characters overall were meh besides Han Solo. But dat Harrison Ford though.
All the new characters are awesome. People I can actually root for and care about.
I think in general, there just wasn't enough character development in this movie. Most of the development we saw too was defined by action, as opposed to dialogue. It would be good if the next one had a good amount of action - less than this one, but really fucking delves into the SW universe. Let's talk about the force, let's talk about light sabers, let's talk about something.
heliosRAzi
Banned
That makes you a sexist, just like the rest of us.
I didn't get as invested in them. The only mildly interesting one was Finn.
Oh fuck no. Not the "let's talk about it" version of Star Wars.
Star wars universe can be really good, and can explore a lot of interesting topics! Why do you think people read the books?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Then they have the books. It is a win/win.
Or they could explore the Star Wars universe in the movies.
Megidolaon
Member
Haha yeah, tell me about it. Its prety crazy =pThat makes you a sexist, just like the rest of us.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Still rather cannot believe that people are using Rey "beat" Kylo as a proof that she's a Mary Sue. Aside from being injured, and emotionally unbalanced for having just killed his dad, he was also specifically told by the big bad to bring her in alive, so it's clear he's in the fight not with the intention of killing Rey, which can make all the difference in the world.
For several styles you actually do the weightlessness, and the changing of length while fighting are a really big deal.
Well you need one to begin to truly understand the style you choose.
Who is still talking about Mary Sueness other than tangentially? The discussion moved on a long time ago.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
This thread isn't those places. Why post that here at this point unless it was a drive by comment?
Man sure are a lot of dudes upset that the movie isn't following exactly how they think the force works.
I'll just pull out my tiny violin and play a sad, sad song just for them.
Also, someone please explain why a movie explicitly stated to be the first third of a new story isn't allowed to defer things to later movies for explanations.
We don't hold book series or TV shows to this standard, so why is it suddenly a major issue right now in this one, and why only regarding Rey.
I'll just pull out my tiny violin and play a sad, sad song just for them.
Also, someone please explain why a movie explicitly stated to be the first third of a new story isn't allowed to defer things to later movies for explanations.
We don't hold book series or TV shows to this standard, so why is it suddenly a major issue right now in this one, and why only regarding Rey.
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