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[JustSomeone]

Durante, if you are reading this, please make them stop calling the pc version of the witcher 3 a "port" every time they introduce you.

The PC version was the original version, the console versions are the ports.

 

[Occam]

Buying RoTTR from the Windows Store on launch day was a huge mistake. I did it to avoid Steam, which I dislike, but I didn't realize at the time that it was going to be so restrictive.

That said, The Windows Store isn't going to stop me from playing Quantum Break, or ReCore. I wish there was another way, but there isn't, and ultimately, I just want to play video games!

And that's how it begins. Most gamers have zero moral conviction, and goldfish memory syndrome. Dangle something shiny in their face and they forget everything else. "Screw freedom and rights, gotta have the shiny".

 

[Saucycarpdog]

He's likely referring to people chasing after the iOS app store profits, not the mac os app store (seriously, the mac app store is inconsequential enough to not really exists as far as I'm concerned).

Yeah, figured he was talking about the app store. But even so, like I said, mobile and computers remain separate and even Apple knows this by keeping OSX and iOS separate platforms with different storefronts and APIs. Not Apple's fault Microsoft is stupid enough to try to turn computers into mobile devices.

 

[RedStep]

And that's how it begins. Most gamers have zero moral conviction, and goldfish memory syndrome. Dangle something shiny in their face and they forget everything else. "Screw freedom and rights, gotta have the shiny".

Are you seriously calling a gaming storefront choice (or more accurately, being willing to buy from a less-desirable one if needed) a "moral conviction"?

 

[I'm new be nice]

No you are not. And there are SO MANY other .gifs that have that exact problem.

This is the absolute worst for me, because it gets posted so much (not that much these days) and it is incomplete without her eyes rolling back

 

[Fret]

Yes, because you'll be able to play Street Fighter 4, King of Fighters 98/02, and numerous other "Windows only" titles on Linux without a huge pain in the ass hassle that is WINE if they even work with that "emulation" wrapper.

why would MS ever remove backwards compatibility? you'll still be able to use your old programs and games on windows 11. removing backwards compatibility would be literal suicide for windows. not gonna happen.

It's just that easy!

if it ever got to the point where MS "locked" down Windows, it definitely would be easy to move to something else - because everyone else would move too.

 

[Haunted]

Preach it, brother. It's important to educate people about this so MS can't get away with it.

 

[Krejlooc]

Are you seriously calling a gaming storefront choice (or more accurately, being willing to buy from a less-desirable one if needed) a "moral conviction"?

It seems you don't understand what the argument is at all.

 

[Rymuth]

Oh shoot! Durante has a new article! I was waiting for him to chime in on this.

Thanks, OP.

 

[Aceofspades]

What is the main complaint here? Is it the restrictions imposed by MS on their store or having their games exclusive to W10 store?

I can see the first one being a problem but people could always shy away from using MS ecosystem in this case.

The point of offering their games exclusive to their store, I think they have full right to do so since they are trying to create value for their store. I mean nobody expect Valve to release HL3 on all platforms on day one.

 

[GhostTrick]

Great articles, as usual by Durante. People will call me extreme, but the only way for Microsoft to fix their Store and UWA is to simply not sell games here but elsewhere. Steam, Origin, Uplay, GOG. You have 4 places to sell your games.

Comply to standard or leave. That's simple as that. No more of your anti consumer bullshit and anti PC gaming practices.

What is the main complaint here? Is it the restrictions imposed by MS on their store or having their games exclusive to W10 store?

I can see the first one being a problem but people could always shy away from using MS ecosystem in this case.

The point of offering their games exclusive to their store, I think they have full right to do so since they are trying to create value for their store. I mean nobody expect Valve to release HL3 on all platforms on day one.

You can't dissociate both. MS store is terrible at best. The UWA format is useless and a pain, their store is a ugly smartphone store with shitty anti-consumer policies.

The point to make their games exclusive to the service is a pathetic attempt to make it a new standard.

 

[Krejlooc]

What is the main complaint here? Is it the restrictions imposed by MS on their store or having their games exclusive to W10 store?

The main complaint is that, thus far, Microsoft's UWP scheme appears to be following their well worn path of embrace, extend, and extinguish.

 

[Htown]

What is the main complaint here? Is it the restrictions imposed by MS on their store or having their games exclusive to W10 store?

I can see the first one being a problem but people could always shy away from using MS ecosystem in this case.

The point of offering their games exclusive to their store, I think they have full right to do so since they are trying to create value for their store. I mean nobody expect Valve to release HL3 on all platforms on day one.

You could just read the article.

 

[Ricerocket]

What is the main complaint here? Is it the restrictions imposed by MS on their store or having their games exclusive to W10 store?

I can see the first one being a problem but people could always shy away from using MS ecosystem in this case.

The point of offering their games exclusive to their store, I think they have full right to do so since they are trying to create value for their store. I mean nobody expect Valve to release HL3 on all platforms on day one.

Uhh if valve released HL3, it would be on Steam so it would work on any PC and Linux. It won't be restricted and limited to Windows 10 store.

And what's with the question? It's clearly about the restrictions that is the problem with MS and "PC gaming."

 

[televator]

MS lost me quick when Durante mentions "lack of mod support."

Nope, nope, fuck that, kill it with fire, nope, hell fucking nope

 

[Aceofspades]

Thanks for the responses, now I can see how this can be a major problem. I had no experience whatsoever with MS Win store, I use steam when playing PC.

 

[NoHeDidn't]

Software companies like MS are taking pages from politicians at this point by making something bad sound like it's gonna be great and it's done for your sake.Next they will give projects names that are literally opposite of what the project does like a "save our schools bill" actually cutting funding for education.

There's a reason legislation isn't curbing the monopoly that is going on and that is lobbyist write the laws now.

 

[nib95]

What is the main complaint here? Is it the restrictions imposed by MS on their store or having their games exclusive to W10 store?

I can see the first one being a problem but people could always shy away from using MS ecosystem in this case.

The point of offering their games exclusive to their store, I think they have full right to do so since they are trying to create value for their store. I mean nobody expect Valve to release HL3 on all platforms on day one.

Why not just read the article? It covers everything in far more detail than a post is going to.

 

[GhostTrick]

Yet Ensemble is now closed. Releasing a couple games on steam does not mean they are doing things right when it comes to PC>

At least, they werent doing anything wrong

 

[wildfire]

After reading this I can firmly say I'm justified in not making the switch to Windows 10.

There are a whole bunch of problems with it but the last saving grace was what DirectX 12 would offer. Ruining interoperability isn't worth all the cool things MS is unlocking such as taking away the large amount of control Nvidia and AMD have on drivers to make combining their gpus possible.


Also after reading this article I see some benefits that have yet to be explored.


The MS certified developer DRM not only imperils benevolent mods but it also cripples in game hacks. It would be interesting to know what the current methods to exploit games UWA would impact.


UWA's are meant to make it trivial for devs to right software that can work on any device. This is a discussion we sort of been having about what Nintendo seems to be doing and the benefits are obvious.
You only pay for a game once and you can interact with it on any device with the right input controls. That alone makes buying software cheaper than the current way software is purchased.
This reduces the issues with syncing your data across different devices making the.

BUT Microsoft has a very big problem. A lot of third party Original device manufacturers (ODMs) have moved away from making as many devices with Windows as the default OS after MS threatened their business with the release of the Surface. ChromeOS is on the rise specifically because of the release of Surface.
Meanwhile MS has all but abandoned phones because they sucked so much for years and now they have a hard time getting handset makers to even consider using their OS (probably because it costs too much money). What's the point of UWA's if no device other than desktops and laptops will reliably have windows 10 installed. We have heard nothing about MS expanding their software into cars or smart home devices, only VR.

 

[SmartWaffles]

Hail Lord Durante

 

[TBiddy]

Great article Durante, although there are some points I disagree with.

• UWAs cannot be distributed and installed easily without going through Microsoft as the gatekeeper. - From what I know, you don't need Microsofts permission to create and/or distribute UWAs.
• As such, if a publisher becomes defunct or simply decides not to offer a game on the Windows store anymore, your purchase might essentially vanish - I'd argue that this is speculation and doesn't belong in the "Objective" section of the article.
• Can I, as an application developer, freely distribute my UWA to users by any means I deem adequate, without going through Microsoft and without any disadvantages in terms of features or user experience compared to selling them on their store? - Yes, yes you can. There aren't any disadvantages, to my knowledge. Except that you can't use the store to update and sell the apps, of course. But there aren't any disadvantages, as of yet, if you decide to sell the game on your own store instead of the Windows 10 store.
  

After reading this I can firmly say I'm justified in not making the switch to Windows 10.

What's the point of UWA's if no device other than desktops and laptops will reliably have windows 10 installed. We have heard nothing about MS expanding their software into cars or smart home devices, only VR.

This doesn't have anything to do with Windows 10, per se. It's only connected to the new UWP, that Microsoft has plans to make you love. As for the point of UWA, you're forgetting the potentials. If Microsoft can make developers use UWA for most of their games and apps, the ecosystem for Windows Phone (and HoloLens, to a certain degree) will explode. You also need to keep in mind that the XB1 and PC games will essentially be the same code, thus reducing the cost of developing for both platforms.

 

[GhostTrick]

After reading this I can firmly say I'm justified in not making the switch to Windows 10.

There are a whole bunch of problems with it but the last saving grace was what DirectX 12 would offer. Ruining interoperability isn't worth all the cool things MS is unlocking such as taking away the large amount of control Nvidia and AMD have on drivers to make combining their gpus possible.


Also after reading this article I see some benefits that have yet to be explored.


The MS certified developer DRM not only imperils benevolent mods but it also cripples in game hacks. It would be interesting to know what the current methods to exploit games UWA would impact.


UWA's are meant to make it trivial for devs to right software that can work on any device. This is a discussion we sort of been having about what Nintendo seems to be doing and the benefits are obvious.
You only pay for a game once and you can interact with it on any device with the right input controls. That alone makes buying software cheaper than the current way software is purchased.
This reduces the issues with syncing your data across different devices making the.

BUT Microsoft has a very big problem. A lot of third party Original device manufacturers (ODMs) have moved away from making as many devices with Windows as the default OS after MS threatened their business with the release of the Surface. ChromeOS is on the rise specifically because of the release of Surface.
Meanwhile MS has all but abandoned phones because they sucked so much for years and now they have a hard time getting handset makers to even consider using their OS (probably because it costs too much money). What's the point of UWA's if no device other than desktops and laptops will reliably have windows 10 installed. We have heard nothing about MS expanding their software into cars or smart home devices, only VR.

Win32 already allows for that. You just need the right service.

I use Steam on my computer and on my tablet. I dont pay my games twice. As for inputs, if devs wont support touchscreen UWA, it's the same troubles. It's up to the devs to add a touchscreen mode to their programs and its the same for UWA or Win32. Neither was Windows 10 Store.

Civilization V support both classic and touch input, its a Win32 game and hence can be shared through all my devices thanks to Steam. UWA wasnt needed for that.

 

[Bigmac1910]

Ok but ms is not forcing anyone to use this. Win32 still works on win10. If ms wants to go the apple route with their store I'm not that bothered. So you miss out on the 2 or 3 games ms puts out each year...

For now, but the fear is that MS is going to stop supporting win32 in the future, and then PC gaming is kinda fucked.

 

[Fret]

For now, but the fear is that MS is going to stop supporting win32 in the future, and then PC gaming is kinda fucked.

... but why or how is that supposed to happen? how is MS going to just "stop supporting" win32? maybe in like 10 years, yeah? but now? impossible. by the time win32 is "unsupported", I can guarantee a better alternative would have taken its place already

 

[OmarTheHippo]

Thank you OP. I read the article.

I think Microsoft, as a video game publisher, has a right to protect their intellectual property. If that means a non-standard (specifically non-EXE) PC application that's distributed through an official Microsoft store, they're allowed to do so. Additionally, UWA sounds like a set of tools for making software, not unlike CryEngine or Unity. Microsoft should be allowed to use and promote using these tools, even if it means something like lack of mod support in games.

What would be unacceptable is if Microsoft would one day force all Windows apps to be made with the UWA toolset, and sold through an official Windows store. But that is ridiculous. We're too far down the Windows PC path too assume that could happen. For one, developers wouldn't stand for it. If you're already familiar with a different toolset (or have built one in-house), you wouldn't suddenly want to learn something different. I don't think gamers would stand for it either. Valve has made a big push to make Linux a strong platform for games, and you can currently get over 1500 Steam games on Linux (including big name games like Borderlands). If Windows became closed and proprietary like iOS, I think gamers would jump ship to Linux (or maybe Mac).

To make Windows a walled-garden-type platform would be doing a disservice to a large number of people who buy Windows: PC gamers. I just don't see it happening.

But that's exactly what the uproar is about: doing a great disservice to a large number of people who buy Windows PC games

I remember when Gabe rallied against Windows 8, and thought he was blowing things out of proportion. Watching them put so much effort into Linux porting and SteamOS seemed like a waste of effort and energy when Windows PC gaming wasn't going anywhere. Why not just put that time and effort into developing awesome games, especially if that was their end goal anyways

But it's impossible to read an article like Durante's and continue to be dismissive and think "I just don't see it happening". Because what he outlined is the framework of a walled garden integrated into the OS. I very much doubt we'll ever see PC gaming die because Microsoft forces everyone into their walled garden. But as long as they continue to push OS integration into their walled garden, PC gaming as a whole will suffer. Progress will slow and potentially step backwards and that's upsetting as PC gamer

If Microsoft wanted to go the Origin or Uplay DRM publisher marketplace route, it's their loss; gamers and the marketplace will go elsewhere. GWFL was exactly this in the end. But none of the current complaints are about Microsoft the publisher. All the complaints are about Microsoft the PC platform keys holder

Microsoft doesn't get the benefit of the doubt anymore. And because they are acting as MORE than a publisher, "speaking with our wallets" won't do the trick. We have to speak with our words, and I greatly appreciate Durante, Newell, and Sweeney speaking for us

 

[Unknown Soldier]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto

I know that. This never reached commercial production. The Xerox Star did reach limited production but nobody knew about it. It wasn't until Apple brought the original Mac to mass production that people found out about GUI. My point stands, MS didn't implement a GUI shell for DOS until after Mac reached public consciousness.

And that's how it begins. Most gamers have zero moral conviction, and goldfish memory syndrome. Dangle something shiny in their face and they forget everything else. "Screw freedom and rights, gotta have the shiny".

Gamers remember the Bone always-online DRM though. I just hope that PC gamers are able to summon the same mass revolt that console gamers did when MS dropped that atom bomb. In many ways, UWP/UWA is as big a threat to PC gaming as Bone always-online DRM was to console gaming.

 

[Krejlooc]

I know that. This never reached commercial production. The Xerox Star did reach limited production but nobody knew about it. It wasn't until Apple brought the original Mac to mass production that people found out about GUI. My point stands, MS didn't implement a GUI shell for DOS until after Mac reached public consciousness.

That's terrible revisionism at best. "They invented it because people didn't know about it."

If that's your claim, why not say that Atari invented the GUI, then? GEM reached way, way more people than the original Mac did.

And it's pretty disingenuous to say Microsoft copied apple, when apple copied Xerox, "public knowledge" being completely irrelevant in this case.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

Read the article and wow, this would really suck for PC gamers and me as the occasional PC gamer. It's one of the big reasons I sometimes go with a PC port instead of the console version - prettier graphics AND to cheat my ass off by modding.

You have to admit though - it's pretty diabolical and ingenious of MS - Xbox losing the race? We'll turn our hundreds of millions of windows users into Xbox users too, lol.

 

[nephilimdj]

For now, but the fear is that MS is going to stop supporting win32 in the future, and then PC gaming is kinda fucked.

Thats basically imposable, Win10 supports 16bit programs (I believe the x64 version does now).

I think Durante has a valid point about its a awful way to package and use as a DRM at the moment, but the fear thats its awful because you have to log in to use the DRM in something like Visual Studio is very finny.

 

[Bigmac1910]

... but why or how is that supposed to happen? how is MS going to just "stop supporting" win32? maybe in like 10 years, yeah? but now? impossible. by the time win32 is "unsupported", I can guarantee a better alternative would have taken its place already

If you noticed MS recently, they abandon things that are unfavorable to their business real fast, and I don't think any developer or consumer can trust that a better alternative will take it's place, it's their OS after all.

 

[takoyaki]

Great article Durante! I haven't been following the UWA situation very closely; you did a fantastic job of summarizing/explaining the situation and that is what's really necessary here, because otherwise MS might just get away with this.

It was easy enough for the average console gamer to understand why always-online and no used games were big problems with the initial plans for Xbox ONE. In this case though, my feeling is that many will see the ease of access to UWAs as a big plus because it's what people expect these days coming from iOS/Android. The downsides aren't as obvious.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

That's terrible revisionism at best. "They invented it because people didn't know about it."

If that's your claim, why not say that Atari invented the GUI, then? GEM reached way, way more people than the original Mac did.

And it's pretty disingenuous to say Microsoft copied apple, when apple copied Xerox, "public knowledge" being completely irrelevant in this case.

I never said Apple invented the GUI. Go back and read what I wrote, which is factually correct. Apple brought GUI to desktop computer users. Xerox was never able to successfully commercialize what they had developed, so it was Apple that ended up doing it. Later on, MS copied Apple. MS never saw what went on at Xerox PARC but they certainly saw what Apple did.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I'd be surprised if there was anyone on Gaf who didn't know who Durante is

Devil May Cry's main character. Only an idiot wouldn't know this.

 

[TBiddy]

If you noticed MS recently, they abandon things that are unfavorable to their business real fast, and I don't think any developer or consumer can trust that a better alternative will take it's place, it's their OS after all.

You're forgetting that Win32 more or less is their business. I don't think you can find a single company out there (who runs Windows) that doesn't rely heavily on Win32. Why would Microsoft abandon their largest income, the enterprise customers?

 

[Fret]

If you noticed MS recently, they abandon things that are unfavorable to their business real fast, and I don't think any developer or consumer can trust that a better alternative will take it's place, it's their OS after all.

as I've said before, abandoning win32 anytime soon would be suicide. it's not gonna happen. win32 programs will work on windows for many many years to come.

 

[Krejlooc]

I never said Apple invented the GUI. Go back and read what I wrote, which is factually correct. Apple brought GUI to desktop computer users. Xerox was never able to successfully commercialize what they had developed, so it was Apple that ended up doing it. Later on, MS copied Apple. MS never saw what went on at Xerox PARC but they certainly saw what Apple did.

your claim:

I believe Apple is responsible for bringing GUI to the desktop with the original Mac

Is patently false. Xerox did it first, and whether or not the STAR was a smash success or not, they did it first and thus are responsible for bringing GUI to desktop. Hell, the concept of "desktop" belongs to Xerox in the first place.

MS never saw what went on at Xerox PARC but they certainly saw what Apple did.

What Xerox did rewrote the book of generally accepted GUI design. Many of the concepts Xerox put into place with the Alto and Star were concepts that had been floating around for years already. Case in point, Jeff Miner had conceptualized Workbench before the first mac ever released. They just did it first.

 

[Bigmac1910]

Thats basically imposable, Win10 supports 16bit programs (I believe the x64 version does now).

I think Durante has a valid point about its a awful way to package and use as a DRM at the moment, but the fear thats its awful because you have to log in to use the DRM in something like Visual Studio is very finny.

Personally I am not afraid of DRM, I am using Steam after all , but I do remember GFWL, doesn't exactly instill one with confidence that they will take care of me as a costumer for the long haul.

 

[Urthor]

You're forgetting that Win32 more or less is their business. I don't think you can find a single company out there (who runs Windows) that doesn't rely heavily on Win32. Why would Microsoft abandon their largest income, the enterprise customers?

They won't abandon them. But it's not black and white, there's a full spectrum of shady shit they can do as they lust after the glorious 30% Apple margin.

They could selling Windows with "Win32 compatibility" for 50 dollars more as part of their professional/enterprise version of Windows for example. Plenty of gamers bought Windows 7 professional simply because there's a RAM cap on Windows 7 Home at 64 GB iirc.

Would put as many consumers as possible in hog to the Windows app store, whilst giving corporations the safety blanket of "yes everything is the same as before," for example, their poorly coded proprietary CAD plugins from 1999.

 

[Durante]

You're forgetting that Win32 more or less is their business. I don't think you can find a single company out there (who runs Windows) that doesn't rely heavily on Win32. Why would Microsoft abandon their largest income, the enterprise customers?

as I've said before, abandoning win32 anytime soon would be suicide. it's not gonna happen. win32 programs will work on windows for many many years to come.

If you look at my earlier post, you can see one of many scenarios which would rather easily allow Microsoft to heavily disincentivise Win32 for consumer applications while not affecting their important enterprise market.

No one is claiming they'll simply kill off Win32. As you say, that would be stupid.

 

[Ninja Sharingan]

These apps sound pretty bad. I can't think of a way around it. Either MS adapt or die in this market. I want Xbox games on PC but not in this current version of the APP. hopefully sales are bad and they shift to steam, but I honestly imagine they would rather drop it all than let games goto steam, meaning weak pc support and less great games that MS fund. it could end in a very bleak situation for the gmaing industry as a whole, it's on MS to fix as much of these issues that they can (fingers crossed) :/

 

[Unknown Soldier]

your claim:



Is patently false. Xerox did it first, and whether or not the STAR was a smash success or not, they did it first and thus are responsible for bringing GUI to desktop. Hell, the concept of "desktop" belongs to Xerox in the first place.



What Xerox did rewrote the book of generally accepted GUI design. Many of the concepts Xerox put into place with the Alto and Star were concepts that had been floating around for years already. Case in point, Jeff Miner had conceptualized Workbench before the first mac ever released. They just did it first.

My argument is true, because you're arguing that Xerox having created the Star represents bringing GUI to the desktop. That didn't happen. It was the Mac that brought GUI to the desktop, because Apple actually sold Macs to desktop computer owners. For all that Xerox accomplished, actually bringing a commercial product to the market was not one of them.

You're being pedantic for no reason at all here and it's derailing this thread anyways so I'll stop. You're welcome to try and squeeze in the last word if you desperately feel the need to be right on the Internet because I'm done with this argument after this post.

 

[Roshin]

Thanks to OP for the link. Thanks to Durante for writing a fine article.

 

[Bigmac1910]

as I've said before, abandoning win32 anytime soon would be suicide. it's not gonna happen. win32 programs will work on windows for many many years to come.

You're forgetting that Win32 more or less is their business. I don't think you can find a single company out there (who runs Windows) that doesn't rely heavily on Win32. Why would Microsoft abandon their largest income, the enterprise customers?

I really hope you guys are right, and it does make sense, I am still worried about the future though. But hey, in the end the big corporations/game developers and consumers will decide if UWA is the future or not.

 

[Krejlooc]

My argument is true, because you're arguing that Xerox having created the Star represents bringing GUI to the desktop. That didn't happen. It was the Mac that brought GUI to the desktop, because Apple actually sold Macs to desktop computer owners. For all that Xerox accomplished, actually bringing a commercial product to the market was not one of them.

You're being pedantic for no reason at all here and it's derailing this thread anyways so I'll stop. You're welcome to try and squeeze in the last word if you desperately feel the need to be right on the Internet because I'm done with this argument after this post.

You're quite an apple user alright. Condescending and wrong all at once.

 

[Henrar]

What are the chances of Microsoft fixing some of the issues that UWA have?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You're quite an apple user alright. Condescending and wrong all at once.

LMAO

I didn't want to respond but I wanted to quote this last post so it can stand forever as an example of how wrong your assumptions are about people on the Internet.

Anyone who knows me knows that the only Apple related thing I own is their stock. I own and use no Apple products whatsoever.

Bye now.

 

[Krejlooc]

LMAO

I didn't want to respond but I wanted to quote this last post so it can stand forever as an example of how wrong your assumptions are about people on the Internet.

Anyone who knows me knows that the only Apple related thing I own is their stock. I own and use no Apple products whatsoever.

Bye now.

Glad you were able to squeeze in one last comment.

 

[Bigmac1910]

If you look at my earlier post, you can see one of many scenarios which would rather easily allow Microsoft to heavily disincentivise Win32 for consumer applications while not affecting their important enterprise market.

No one is claiming they'll simply kill off Win32. As you say, that would be stupid.

Yup, this is my biggest fear, Linux here I come? Maybe, I have too many windows only software that I rely on for now. Still want to give Ubuntu a try once I have more time.

 

[Auto-Reply]

Great article.

The entire situation is depressing.