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Durante for PC Gamer: Why PC games should never become universal 'apps'
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Dreams-Visions
Member
Hey Durante, please let Eurogamer know that there are 2 spelling errors in this paragraph. I'm sure they ran spell check but someone there actually needs to read articles before posting them too. First and second sentences. Missing "of" and "off" --> "of".
Great article as usual.
One more spelling error:
"to possibility" --> "the possibility".
Server side verification in action games is mostly limited to unreliable/guessing heuristics. It can help identifying cheaters, but by and large it can't be used preventively at all, due to requiring a lot of data before false-positives rates are low enough to act reliably.Durante said:
Relevance algorithms are equally problematic with just about every popular game on the market - when players move at 50m/s, "safe" zones for not sending positions are criminally small outside of things that are so far removed from the player that wallhack is meaningless anyway. It implies design restrictions as well - but won't go into that.
And let's not forget that nothing you do on the server can protect against macros and helper-bots - unless again, you resort to hidden-client measures and data-sampling behind user backs.
Sure - but when the most effective cheat counters in practical results (outside of games that can "actually" be secured) are intimidation and annoyance of the cheat-users, obscurity actually helps a great deal in delivering.
Iced_Eagle
Member
Durante, I'm not actually sure your point around exclusive full screen is completely accurate. The fact FreeSync doesn't support it is likely true, but your point around the performance impact may be false.
You're correct in that all windows are borderless windows (personally, a change which I welcome since many games can't handle exclusive full screen alt-tab well), but you can still have your application create a non-windowed swap chain.
In fact, at the top of the MSDN page in the article you linked it even says:
For Store apps, it then tells you that you want to use CreateSwapChainForCoreWindow. on that page they don't list that failure case for store apps. For example: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404559(v=vs.85).aspx
Source 1 (MS - talks about all of the new presentation modes in Win10): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3wTajGZOsA
Source 2 (MS - talking about how to get fullscreen unthrottled frame rate): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn02zCXa9IU
Source 3 (Nvidia): https://developer.nvidia.com/dx12-dos-and-donts
Have you tried creating a sample app to verify the behavior you think is being imposed?
You're correct in that all windows are borderless windows (personally, a change which I welcome since many games can't handle exclusive full screen alt-tab well), but you can still have your application create a non-windowed swap chain.
In fact, at the top of the MSDN page in the article you linked it even says:
For Store apps, it then tells you that you want to use CreateSwapChainForCoreWindow. on that page they don't list that failure case for store apps. For example: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404559(v=vs.85).aspx
Source 1 (MS - talks about all of the new presentation modes in Win10): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3wTajGZOsA
Source 2 (MS - talking about how to get fullscreen unthrottled frame rate): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn02zCXa9IU
Source 3 (Nvidia): https://developer.nvidia.com/dx12-dos-and-donts
- Do use SetFullScreenState(TRUE) along with a (borderless) fullscreen window and a non-windowed flip model swap-chain to switch to true immediate independent flip mode
- This is at the moment, according to Microsoft, the only mode you can get unleashed frame rates with tearing out of D3D12 when calling Present(0,0)
- Any other mode doesn’t allow unlimited frame rates with tearing
Have you tried creating a sample app to verify the behavior you think is being imposed?
PyroPaperPlanes
Member
That's how you write an article.
I'll just quote myself from the other thread.
For now PC devs will not go for it but Xbox One devs shouldn't see much reason to say no to making a UWP or UWA because it will give them a bigger user base than just Xbox One.
So going forward they can release Windows 10 devices like STBs that will be their closed multimedia computers.
For now PC devs will not go for it but Xbox One devs shouldn't see much reason to say no to making a UWP or UWA because it will give them a bigger user base than just Xbox One.
So going forward they can release Windows 10 devices like STBs that will be their closed multimedia computers.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Right now, the only way to distribute UWAs is through the Windows Store. As it is, Microsoft's first party games being Windows Store exclusive means that they're hoping enough people either a) don't care about any downsides Durante mentioned in this article or b) want to play the game in question bad enough to settle for having a UWA copy since a Win32 copy doesn't exist. This also means that for first party Microsoft stuff, it won't be available for purchase on stores like Steam, where they're losing millions of potential buyers.
For non-Microsoft developers, this means that if you want to sell your game on both Steam AND the Windows Store, you have to create two entirely different applications (UWAs can't be distributed through Steam) and maintain them both. Essentially, you're porting your game to yet another codebase, and there is an expectation that each of these codebases will be supported with things like new content and patches. One solution would be just to create UWAs, but then you lose out on the potential Steam revenue, thus making it a bad - like real bad - thing for your business.
This is the point that bothers me the most about UWAs. I'm constantly amazed at what modders are able to accomplish with no modding tools, and it will be a cold day in hell before I support anything Microsoft does that would limit that.
Deus Ex is a visually dated game, but the UE D3D 10 renderer is a godsend. X-Com was mediocre, but Long War was well worth buying the game + expansion for. EA couldn't be bothered to add controller support to Mass Effect, but thankfully, someone else did. Hell, modders added multiplayer to Just Cause 2, a game that had absolutely no multiplayer support. There are countless games with unofficial mods and fan patches. Killing that would be killing PC gaming.
Felix Lighter
Member
Outside of Microsoft owned studios, who are the Xbox One devs that don't also develop on PC? It must be a tiny tiny percentage of 3rd party devs.
Rolodzeo
Member
Well, Durante spoke the truth, no doubt about it, but it seemed to me that his complains affect only the hardcore spectrum and, honestly, the average Joe who wants to play some games couldn't care less about exclusive fullscreen or modifying exes, so... I don't know. Apple opened this door a long time ago, Steam made its DRM the de facto standard and we now pay for the multiplayer on consoles. This is the next step, and I fear is just a matter of time.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
Ok but ms is not forcing anyone to use this. Win32 still works on win10. If ms wants to go the apple route with their store I'm not that bothered. So you miss out on the 2 or 3 games ms puts out each year...
CreateSwapChainForCoreWindow does not describe that failure case since CreateSwapChainForCoreWindow is incapable of initiating exclusive full screen mode in the first place.
I haven't looked at your other links in detail, but they don't seem to be UWA-specific.
Has anyone in this thread or article said otherwise?
Those Average Joe's own a PS4 currently. I think average PC gamer cares more about settings and full screen then you are letting on imo.
SunBroDave
Member
The fear is that Microsoft has laid the groundwork such that yes, gradually you will have less and less choice to use anything other than the more restrictive UWAs. A lot of the restrictions are baked into DX12 on a fundamental level.
Maintenance
Member
Thanks, Durante.
Iced_Eagle
Member
Sure, I'm not denying that it can't create an exclusive full screen.
My point was around this paragraph in your article:
It seems like MS does have similar methods of performance for exclusive full screen based on what they describe and what Nvidia has on their dev site, does it not?
*Edit* No, they aren't UWA specific posts because the issue you are describing is also not UWA specific as far as I can tell. It is DX12 specific which therefore applies to UWA, specifically around the new use of WDDM 2.0 and the windows compositor.
If anyone owns Ashes of the Singularity on Steam, they'll probably be able to easily tell us if that has exclusive full screen mode. From what I quickly searched on their forums, it does not.
I could be wrong and this IS UWA specific, but from what I've seen it's a DX12 issue.
CertifiedFP
Member
No... No... No...
They didn't... They couldn't...
They didn't SERIOUSLY advertise DirectX10 this way, did they?
Jesus fucking christ that's even more disingenuous than that Kingdom Hearts HD comparison gif with the PS2 image being compressed down to PS1 resolution.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Dinky Dino
Member
Well at least they toned it down for advertising dx12 to the uninformed masses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLWamwzhQ34
No... No... No...
They didn't... They couldn't...
They didn't SERIOUSLY advertise DirectX10 this way, did they?
Jesus fucking christ that's even more disingenuous than that Kingdom Hearts HD comparison gif with the PS2 image being compressed down to PS1 resolution.
Ohhh I guess you haven't seen this DX12 one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLWamwzhQ34&user=WindowsVideos
Edit - So late......
CertifiedFP
Member
But... Did DX9 even EXIST when Halo came out? I'm pretty sure Halo 1 is a DX8 game.
yeah, at least its the same game this time.
SunBroDave
Member
Microsoft also recommended a 970 for 1080p and a 980ti for 4k for the recent Gears of War PC release, yet we have an entire thread of people that will tell you that even with that kind of high end hardware the experience leaves much to be desired.
They also released a trailer passing off a Deus Ex tech demo as some kind of proof that DX12 magically adds in effects like volumetric lighting that aren't available on DX11.
The point is that Microsoft can't exactly be trusted. As Durante said in his article, it's not in their best interest to give you a good experience. They're in it to make as much money as possible. Their past history is evidence of that.
Dinky Dino
Member
They released the dx9 pc version in 2003, 2 years after the og xbox so it counted in their world.
blackMamba1187
Member
I can't download guilty gear any longer. Really grinds my gears.
Also, the store really needs to offer refunds. Sometimes pc games launch broke. Just the way it is. And Microsoft is nixing the benefit of the enthusiast community to fix these games. The competition offers refunds.
Also, the store really needs to offer refunds. Sometimes pc games launch broke. Just the way it is. And Microsoft is nixing the benefit of the enthusiast community to fix these games. The competition offers refunds.
Glitchesarecool
Member
I don't get why you wouldn't just go Steam in that case. It's a bigger marketplace than the Windows store will be for your non-exclusive title.
Iced_Eagle
Member
I don't understand what this has to do with developer documentation I linked? That stuff tends to be pretty cut and dry (except for undefined and undocumented behaviors which are always fun).
You can get refunds, many people on Gaf did. There's a support phone number you can call and tell them the game doesn't work and after they give you the run around of "Did you try contacting the developer? yada yada" they will give you a refund. They certainly don't make it clear or as easy as Steam (which is funny to say now).
No... No... No...
They didn't... They couldn't...
They didn't SERIOUSLY advertise DirectX10 this way, did they?
Jesus fucking christ that's even more disingenuous than that Kingdom Hearts HD comparison gif with the PS2 image being compressed down to PS1 resolution.
They released a DX12 promo which basically just had a 'turn shit off' DX11 vs 'turn some shit on' DX12. I believe it was color saturation and volumetric lighting.
And some people wonder why we have trust issues.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Exactly my point, going UWA / Windows Store exclusive at this time would likely be disastrous for the sales of your game, and thus answering DigSCCP's question about why this would be bad for devs from a business perspective.
Hari Seldon
Member
Great article. I won't be buying anything from the windows store ever. The only thing MS understands is a big fat flop.
No... No... No...
They didn't... They couldn't...
They didn't SERIOUSLY advertise DirectX10 this way, did they?
Jesus fucking christ that's even more disingenuous than that Kingdom Hearts HD comparison gif with the PS2 image being compressed down to PS1 resolution.
I really want to see someone challenge Microsoft / Phil Spencer on these tactics. It's just ridiculous.
Kyleripman
Member
Great article, didn't even know this was going on. Thanks.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
UUUUUUUUULTRAAAAAA COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
This is the kind of "none of the bullshit, NONE" demands that should be made to each and every Microsoft PR and exec until they answer it directly.
I've mentioned before that this is to stop them screwing themselves, cuz right now, if they keep with these asinine demands, one of us are getting screwed (and hell, my money's on THEM getting it; it's like watching an alcoholic fall off the wagon AGAIN).
3 years makes a ton of difference in some lives, I guess.
Got it bro, thanx!
Springfoot
Member
Great read but crappy move by MS. I've been holding off on moving to Win10 until I build a new rig later this year and was unaware of just how obnoxiously gated off the MS 'apps' were being handled. Hopefully we'll see this change, but I don't have a lot of faith if they're doing this for their exclusive titles.
Glitchesarecool
Member
NullPointer
Member
Absolutely.
The only way I can see Windows Store grab any head room is with exclusive content. If MS continues to march forward and release title after title from their first party studios, they can will themselves into a space much like how EA and Origin did. Beyond that? Unless they mandate UWAs across the entire OS (which will is highly unlikely for BC purposes), it's not going anywhere.
If the price is right and the game works with my hardware, I will buy stuff from the MS store. Mods, overlays and other limitations outlined don't bother me in the slightest. I just want the game running well (not like Gears on AMD) for a low price.
If the price is right and the game works with my hardware, I will buy stuff from the MS store. Mods, overlays and other limitations outlined don't bother me in the slightest. I just want the game running well (not like Gears on AMD) for a low price.
boredandlazy
Member
Give him some credit, his typing has gotten better.
Dreams-Visions
Member
It feels that way unfortunately. And yet it's hard to know if MS will understand that PC flops are because of Windows Store or if they will blame the developers. I'd really like to buy KI season 3 and QB...and maybe getting both is okay here because of cross-buy. I just worry that MS won't receive the right message.
Excellent article!
The means by which Microsoft have 'shifted focus' to PC gaming and Windows is problematic.
In terms of UWA, I don't suspect that they'll ever change things for the better. For fuck sake they're essentially making a console ecosystem on the PC, limiting control to the user.
The means by which Microsoft have 'shifted focus' to PC gaming and Windows is problematic.
In terms of UWA, I don't suspect that they'll ever change things for the better. For fuck sake they're essentially making a console ecosystem on the PC, limiting control to the user.
Unknown Soldier
Member
And yet as we saw with Rise of the Tomb Raider, even having the game on both Steam and Windows Store hurts the devs because people were buying it in Ukraine region for $9. The experience of the UWA version of that game was also objectively worse for reasons out of the dev's control but they would still take the blame, not MS.
From a business perspective any 3rd party title being on Windows Store is awful even if there is also a Steam version, which makes you wonder what the hell Square Enix was thinking with RotTR.
Hari Seldon
Member
The lucky thing is that MS gutted all of their first party PC devs so much that the only real big hitter they have to get people on the store is Minecraft. They have nothing else that can compete with Blizz, Valve, or League who each run their own stores and won't roll with this.
Dinky Dino
Member
Oh please they know what they're doing since Tim talked to them 18 months ago about this. They likely could care less about game sales and more about whether they can get their dream app store version running with the policies they want with a large userbase. The games are just bait m8. If they wanted to emulate steam's success, they'd have done it easy peasy. But they always want more. Unfortunately for them they're no good at hiding their intentions.
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