TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
Then whats the point of them?
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Opinion: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
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Then whats the point of them?
dodgykebaab
Banned
Sorry my mistake, PS4 will play 4k media (from a memory stick) but not a 4k disc.
Graphics Horse
Member
Where is the evidence that shows the HDMI could support 4k @ 60fps? VR support sounds like a modified 1.4b, not 2.0 (unmodified 1.4b already supports 2x1080p @60hz via frame packing so the bandwidth is there for VR)
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
To me it seems like PS4 as a console is 4K ready, but it may not happen due to the bluray lens not ready for it.
We may see PS4K, a newer slim-like revision which may play it, making this technically correct.
There are UHD players for $500 and up I believe.
Which begs the question, why isn't 4k Netflix available yet on PS4?
Yes, the current PS4 will never get UHD Disc support, that's pretty much a fact, and honestly, I don't think any future revision will either. Looking at the PS3, after all it's revisions it still had the crappy b/g wifi-adapter. And if I were to guess, the reason for that is within such a closed system, any change to the hardware (other than shrink) might have unforeseen consequences. So I'm not expecting a PS4 revision with UHD disc support either.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The PS4 HDMI chip is highly custom and HDCP takes place in the Southbridge TEE. The HDMI port supports 1920X1080 @ 120FPS (in the latest Lecture by Sony for VR) but that is still half the bandwidth that UHD needs. The point is no HDMI 1.4 port supports 120 FPS and no HDMI 1.4 chipset has HDCP taking place outside it. HDCP taking place in the Southbridge TEE is what is required for HDMI 2's HDCP. The only assumption is that provisions were made for the custom HDMI chip to support the clock/timing modes needed by a HDMI 2 port and those modes were known much in advance.
The XB1 supports HEVC profile 10 which will be used for UHD IPTV, UHD Blu-ray, and ATSC 3. You don't support 10 bit profile 10 for 1080P or Game streaming, Profile 10 is for 4K. Then you have a Microsoft VP stating the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray. That makes the 2013 drive update-able to support the August 2015 Version 2 disk format which is the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak that Sony said only requires a firmware update. Drives have always been able to read multiple layers (3 or more) as also documented in the Blu-ray Wiki. If Microsoft can support UHD Blu-ray and they both shipped late 2013, the PS4 should be able to also.
So we are to believe Sony, who is in every UHD Blu-ray Licence category except two and Microsoft none, isn't supporting UHD blu-ray and Microsoft is? Sony for the first time is also developing a UHD PC player application and the XB1 and PS4 are easier to DRM (Embedded) PCs. I suspect this partially answers the microsoft-sony.com Domain registration by Microsoft.
Did you read that UHD TV (ATSC 3) TV screen is a web page and uses the C-ENC format and HTML5 <video> with DASH. DASH because the transport layers support a lower resolution for mobile and higher resolution for Large screen TVs in the home at the same time similar to how a IPTV 1080P stream supports 3 different DASH rates at the same time.
UHD blu-ray and UHD 4K TV software stacks are very similar by design. If you can support one 4K media scheme you can support all (except for the Tuner and Drive). Blu-ray drives are firmware update-able to read V2 format disks and the DRM schemes can be supported by older drives BY DESIGN. There is no hardware change needed to HD drives to support UHD.
I believe it is possible. I also do not think they want to make the same mistake with Blu Ray and make the gaming console one of the better disc players on the market at a lower price point. I wonder if they will bring it in after the market gets enough 4K players in the wild. Part of the reason I picked the PS3 was because I got a $1000.00 blu ray player for $600.00 and got to game on it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
For the same reason the XB1 doesn't have 4K Netflix support yet. First comes HTML5 <video> MSE EME supported by the Southbridge TEE then Playready 3 in the same TEE then HEVC support in the same TEE.
Playready 2.5 has WMDRM as a subset. The intellectual notice for the PS4 has both Playready and WMDRM Listed. Playready 3 does not contain WMDRM as a subset so it has to be supplied separately so it follows the PS4 has Playready 3 which is necessary for 4K media and Playready ND. Playready ND is needed for 1080P and 4K streaming.
When the Netfix app drops from 1.1 GB to about 30mb or less it will be using the PS4 software stack which means it's being run 100 % in Southbridge during full screen video with the GPU off and GDDR5 in self refresh.
If I'm correct about the PS4 supporting all 4K media then the browser has to comply with standards and we are no longer the Sony idiot stepchildren denied features that are seen in Sony TVs and Blu-ray players. This was because the hard disk PC like features made insuring DRM without a DRM core nearly impossible to guarantee. With a C-ENC core and Playready in the PS3 and PS4, both consoles can open up and provide new features without risk to the media.
jeff_rigby
Banned
It might get delayed for that reason.
Knowing ATSC 3 4K TV is a web application viewed in a web page makes EVERY 4K TV a Smart TV with browser using nearly the same software stack that UHD Blu-ray uses, at least the browser. The standards for UHD Blu-ray digital bridge and UHD TV lend themselves to VR which requires a larger GPU than TV. This plus Media hub needs in the short term to support older TVs and Phones plus DVR ability guarantee that PCs and Game Consoles will move into the living room under the TV. The only question is price and GPU size necessary for the forms of VR that the average viewer will want. A version of VR will be browser based.
Badlucktroll
Member
Is 4k totally forked? Also, is that Samsung UHD player thats 399 the only 4k blu ray player on the market? (i think it comes out next month).
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It's the only player. It's been out for a few weeks in limited brick-and-mortar-only release.
Mango Positive
Member
I've got it sitting under my TV, so it's out. The problem is that there are no movies out yet. Blu Rays look great on it though!
Your early adopter game is too strong! Lol
Badlucktroll
Member
I was gonna wait a few months to a year for the clones of it to come out. Like, maybe an off brand like Sanyo, or even Pioneer. Hopefully they will be half the price. Maybe a chinese brand.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Last page in this tread are the Licensed players some not out yet:
Movie Player/Game Console/Test Player
Dongguan Digital AV Technology Corp
Funai Electric Co.,
Panasonic,
Samsung Electronics,
Sony Corporation
Graphics Horse
Member
The decoding software and hardware are irrelevant if the HDMI chip can't handle 4k 60fps, that's why I want to know about that in particular. You say the exposed pins on the chip are significant, but to my inexperienced eyes it looks just like the Panasonic hdmi chip used in the PS3 Slim, but with a slightly different number. Is there a difference?
The Super Slim uses this too and was only released 1 year before the PS4.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes several related to the industry.
The rules for DRM have tightened:
1) You are now not allowed to have exposed Pins unless the media is encrypted
2) Playready 2 , Playready in the app its self will soon not be allowed on the PS3.
3) Playready 2.5 and 3 require a TEE where the PS3 supports porting kit 2.5 and the PS4 supports porting kit 3. In both cases no media is allowed outside the TEE unless it's encrypted. All hardware is evaluated and given a rating and that rating determines how secure the platform and depending on that rating, media of lower or higher resolution may be allowed. Some is predetermined some is determined by the Playready program it's-self. The HDMI 1.4 port in the PS3 degrades the Playready security rating to 1080P and the exposed pins even lower with the new standards. The PS3 could implement watermarking which may up the security rating high enough to allow 1080P on the PS3 with the new standards. HDMI 1.4 has a broken/hacked DRM so I don't know how Grandfathered it will be and what will be allowed for it.
EDIT: HDMI 2 has a feature where it can be served over Ethernet as a HDCP 2 encrypted and I think compressed stream. With a Firmware update the PS3 could support this.
The PS3 as a 2.5 encrypts the memory and OS and has a Virtual protected environment as a TEE
The PS4 has a Trustzone processor in Southbridge with it's own 256 MB of memory. 256MB is too large for just a southbridge or for background tasks which was one of the confirming points I predicted before the hardware breakdown.
Edit: Sony in letters to the EU power board was complaining that the Media Power mode would require a Apple TV like SoC in the Game Console. Semiaccurate was stating in 2012 that the PS4 would come as two chips, the XB1 as one with the AMD/Microsoft project name Kryptos (leaked by Sweetvar123) which is the name of the Statue outside the CIA in Langley. Kryptos was referring to hidden DRM/Cryptology which is the Media Trustzone SoC inside the AMD APU. To meet the EU media power modes the XB1 has to use DDR3 memory which then required the large cache memory for games and that reduced the size of the GPU they could have. Sony moved the ARM block out of the APU into it's own "Apple TV Like" SoC with it's own DDR3 memory so they could use DDR3 for a Media mode and GDDR5 for Games on the APU. If HBM were available this wouldn't have been needed.
What this tells us is that Media and DRM are a major design criteria for both consoles contrary to what many think of the PS4's Game only thrust so far. But to this point Sony has not published the APIs to companies like Netflix to use the Southbridge embedded DRM and player. I believe they will so so when HTML5 <video> MSE EME makes it into the PS4 Browser and that enables ooVoo also.
DirgeExtinction
Member
So today I saw a UHD Blu-Ray of MIB at work(Amazon). On the cover, it mentioned it can be played on certain Blu-Ray players, PS4, and PS3 with the upscaled resolution and expanded colors(that last part requires a supported TV). Maybe Jeff Rigby was right?
Upscaled is the key word there. All the uhd releases come with a regular bluray copy I believe.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Are you sure it wasn't the "Mastered in 4K" blu-rays? Sony released MIB on those. Those can be played on regular blu-ray players/PS3/PS4. Sony really screwed up with those releases muddling things further with 4k; thankfully real 4k/Ultra HD blu-rays come in black boxes and says Ultra HD.
dr_rus
Member
"Upscaled resolution" doesn't make any sense for UHD - what are you going to upscale it to? There are no 8K displays for now.
DirgeExtinction
Member
Yeah, it was that. Nevermind, then. Haha.
cookie-monster
Member
Chû Totoro
Member
jeff_rigby? PS4K ? 
BriareosGAF
Member
Bo Knows GAF
Member
I mean, I know Sony is releasing another ps4 that is designed for 4k, but still good on Jeff for the background research he found through all of this. Honestly most of it was probably unknowingly linked to this project and you can't say in the end he wasn't technically rightish afterall.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
This is mean, lol.
Wishmaster92
Member
Adam Tyner
Member
The assertion is that the launch PS4 (with a firmware update) will 100%, undoubtedly play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they're talking about. You can't really say he's right (or even right-ish) until that functionality is at least announced. He's going beyond "this should be technically possible" into "it's happening!", after all. I hope he's right -- it sure would be nice to already own an Ultra HD BD player! -- but I'm not holding my breath.
MaximumSpider
Banned
Now I'm sad.
Sony themselves said PS4 is not able to do it. No h265 decoder, not the appropriate HDCP, not able to read the discs.
Adam Tyner
Member
Sure, we discussed that earlier. Jeff's suspicion is that Sony is deliberately making misleading comments to adhere to an NDA, which is...y'know, no.
Opus Angelorum
Member
Sony themselves said the current PS4 didn't support 4K, I'm not sure why anyone ever believed Jeff. Why would Sony say otherwise? Any NDA talk is nonsense.
DustyVonEric
Member
Yeah man. People so quick to point and laugh. Respect to Jeff. He put himself out there.
jeff_rigby
Banned
And a Microsoft VP said the XB1 has the hardware to support UHD Blu-ray. Which means a 2013 blu-ray drive can support reading UHD blu-ray disks with a firmware update which is what my cited research showed. In addition in June of 2015 Microsoft announced the XB1 would support HEVC profile 10 which is what is needed to support UHD blu-ray and UHD IPTV. ATSC 3 (4k antenna TV) requires a Multi-view profile 10 HEVC Codec which is again in early Microsoft posts about the XB1 that just showed up around June. If you do some reading the HEVC profile 10 codec has hooks to support multi-view and depth map for 3D.
Which do you believe, a Microsoft VP or a Sony VP? Do the reading yourself and it supports the Microsoft VP which makes the Ito statement in error for some reason. I find it interesting that early 2010 drives can read three layers which Ito says is impossible for the PS4. The PS4 drive without firmware update can not read a Version 2 disk. The changes from version 1.x to 2.0 are in the Fuji book and are all software as far as the drive is concerned. This is by design and mentioned (version 2 disk) in a Sony 2010 patent. A version 2 disk can be one, two or three layers and employs the Panasonic-Sony tweak to increase per layer size from 24 to 33 GB. Sony said in 2010 that this just requires a firmware update.
TheSpecialOne
Banned
Keep fighting the good fight Jeff. I'd love for you to be right but....
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
Damn, what an informative op. Seriously, I can't imagine how long it took to put that info together.
KojiKnight
Member
....and to still looking to be wrong. It may not be through hardware that he's wrong, it may be 100% just Sony wanting to with hold 4k for their new model... but it's still looking really bad for his positive assertion that PS4 will support 4k blu-ray.
prag16
Banned
I quoted this in the other thread and nobody ever responded, probably in part because the thread was moving too quickly at that point.
But, the below quote.. is this bullshit? Did that change at some point?
Yoshida said:
Adam Tyner
Member
How long before the Ultra HD Blu-ray spec was finalized was this said? I'll give you a hint! It's measured in years. What looked to be true in 2013 isn't necessarily valid in 2016. It's not necessarily invalid either, but things do change.
No it can 4k which is because of HDMI being compatible with it. But that's not the content people want from 4k.
You cannot set the ps4 to display at 3840x2160 in any way, shape, or form. If you are looking at a 4k photo or video through the media player, the TV still has the ps4 set at 1080p.
So, currently, the ps4 does not support 4k, PERIOD.
jeff_rigby
Banned
This post summarizes the view on 2013 information from Sony vs the 2015 Ito comment that conflicts. People are assuming that the 4K support they are talking about is the same that the PS3 can support or 4K at 24HZ. The XB1 and PS4 won't support 4k @ 60Hz till they get Firmware updates. Sony still doesn't support WMDRM and Playready embedded yet but those are listed as in the PS4. Every APP is from 140MB to 1.1 GB which means they are self contained and do not use the PS4 OS stack except possibly minimally.
Adam's post above seems to imply that Microsoft insuring the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray in 2013 has no bearing on their implementing it due to the long time since the XB1 was released. It appears he is accepting that the Hardware can support it but for some reason the three+ year wait, two+ years in which no one else released a UHD blu-ray player as the standards were only published late 2015 with product shipping early 2016, seem to him to mean they won't support UHD blu-ray..
No one gets that UHD IPTV, UHD Blu-ray and 4K antenna TV are tied together and if you can support one you can support the others. 4K antenna TV able to be received by Smart Phones and Cars is a game changer as it provides a much greater market. With HEVC you can have 4 times as many channels as we have now and with smaller antennas. You can start to watch a program in your car and continue through several markets/TV stations without interruption as long as they are the same network. 4K antenna TV media will be primarily 720P to 1080P not 4K. A media hub, read XB1 or PS4, is needed to support DRM and DVR/NRT for Phones and older TVs in the home.
4K blu ray stands as much chance in the market as SACD - it'll be niche at best. It might be different if the format was backwards compatible (e.g. both resolutions residing on different layers that their respective players could see) but it isn't.
I don't see Sony making any effort to support the format in the existing PS4 hardware and even if a PS 4.5 appears it is no guarantee they'll bother there either. It depends if the cost of implementing the hardware encumbers every device with an expense that they hope to recoup. I guess we'll see.
I don't see Sony making any effort to support the format in the existing PS4 hardware and even if a PS 4.5 appears it is no guarantee they'll bother there either. It depends if the cost of implementing the hardware encumbers every device with an expense that they hope to recoup. I guess we'll see.
"PERIOD"? Relax, buddy. It supports HDMI 1.4a which means that via HDMI it supports 4k. That it is currently not possible doesn't mean it's not technically possible. Still the HDMI output limits the 4k possibility to just render images other than anything useful for animated pictures.
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