UnemployedVillain
Member
People are still asking for Melee HD? Really?
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People are still asking for Melee HD? Really?
Always-honest
Banned
Yeah some people really missed out on amazing games by not buying a WiiU (for whatever reason). This might be their chance to play them. Along with the new games.
Hell, depending on the improvements, i might even rebuy a couple..
Yeah Remasters are pretty great from a business perspective. You can outsource them (bluepoint, grezzo, straight right, tantalus, etc) and they usually take around 6 months give or take, while being highly profitable. The ROI on them is high and they keep the IP in people's minds and build hype for upcoming sequels.
Calamari41
41 > 38
The thing is, you don't even have to remaster the dozen or so Wii U games that would be potentially targeted for NX release. A straight port with some minor refinements would be more than good enough.
Sometimes great software become inaccessible to consumers because the hardware itself acts like a barrier rather than a conduit. If the NX is designed as an exciting or attractive hardware, some of those great games can finally reach consumers who would have been interested in the first place.
Animal Forest on the N64 is a good example. It was released in Japan in Spring 2001 and sold about 200k copies. It was ported to the GameCube 6 months later with slight resolution upgrade on a shiny new console, and sold almost 3 times more and spawned one of the biggest active franchises for the company.
Yeah. I think if Smash is ported over and has all the DLC stuff in it a lot of people will buy it again. I know I will since I didn't buy DLC.
Sorta hoping they also put the 3DS stages in it. That would be fantastic, but I'm not expecting it haha.
Melee is widely considered to be the best Smash game in the franchise, so I'm not surprised that the demand for a Melee HD is still going strong.
wonderful103
Member
For the most part, smash 4 is a much better and more inclusive game. And this is the one being carried forward to nx. It's like the folks who still play cs 1.6. The world has moved on
The point of ports would never be to just be the Wii U. It would be to supplement the NX originals with quality software to make the catalog more attractive and robust quicker.
The other thing is, the remakes would come in a different order and perhaps much closer together than the original games came out on Wii U. This wouldn't simply be the Wii U being repeated.
The other thing is, the remakes would come in a different order and perhaps much closer together than the original games came out on Wii U. This wouldn't simply be the Wii U being repeated.
Aaronrules380
Member
It's really not. You're vastly overestimating the size of the competitive community
The one that sticks with games for the long-term if they're good. Casuals come & go, while the FGC maintains the train. Nothing was wrong with Melee from a gameplay standpoint, & it was still just as enjoyable as, say, Smash 4 for casuals. Now don't get me wrong, Smash 4 is still a very close second & I don't hold it against Smash 4 for not reaching the heights of Melee (since I've accepted it as a happy accident). But that doesn't change the fact that, from a gameplay standpoint, Melee remains the golden standard of the Smash franchise.
What do you mean by inclusive?
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Well, I still think Melee have a best chance to being on NX via virtual consoles since they haven't done GameCube VC yet.
Happy Accident? The design of Melee for competitive was intentional.
I meant in terms of how the metagame developed as a whole. I realize that stuff like wave dashing was discovered but left in the game, but I'm talking about how the FGC combined all of the elements & ran wild with them. It made Melee quite the spectator's game. And while sure, there's not a lot of variety within the top-tier crew, that doesn't take away much from the excitement. It benefitted the Triforce of eSports on all fronts (the players, the spectators, & the tournament organizers). Smash 4, while it's still pretty damn fun for the players (& easier to get into), it's not as great of a spectator's game as Melee, which doesn't attract as many viewers to help the tournament organizers have their tournament gain popularity. Don't get me wrong, Smash 4 still gathers tons of entrants. But from the looks of it, Smash 4 mainly passes up Melee at FGC tournaments (though not by much) while Melee wins out for Smash-specific majors.
Smash Bros Melee
Mario Kart Double Dash
F-Zero GX
Luigi's Mansion
Pikmin 1-2
Wave Race
Kirby Air Ride
1080 Avalanche
Mario Sunshine
Mario Golf Toadstool Tour
HHHHHNNNGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!
Paper Mario TTYD and Star Fox Adventures and Assault along with Tales of Symphonia and Baten Kaitos are missing from your list. I am disappoint.
Dark Cloud
Member
Can Emily give us a hint on what game Retro is working on? Pleaseeeeee lol
Just joking I don't want her to spoil the surprise. -.-
Just joking I don't want her to spoil the surprise. -.-
Retro only works in trilogies.
Donkey Kong Country Dragon Kong
1080p60 3D platformer, true successor to DK64 for NX in February 2017.
Dark Cloud
Member
Me too.
Only half joking. The title is a joke but I think they'll take stab at 3D DK.
Donkey Kong Boom.
Ok, you got me with Paper Mario and Baten Kaitos. The rest... ehhh
You're getting another Donkey Country game to close the trilogy and you will love it!
The purpose of porting over Wii U games isn't to use them to sell NX, it's to bring in a bit of extra revenue from games that cost a lot of money to develop and only saw a very small audience on the Wii U.
The reason that everyone's assuming two systems are initially released is that a large portion of their potential audience (particularly in the west) has no interest in a handheld system, and another large portion of their potential audience (particularly in Japan) has no interest in a home system.
Sorry I didn't see your previous post, it can be difficult to keep up with this thread.
What Nintendo could do, what they should do, and what they will do are probably very different things. It depends very much on when they release it, what price they're planning on selling it for, what added cost the new controller might add, whether they're intent on competing with MS and Sony on performance, what their attitude to case size and power consumption are, etc., etc. After the Wii U it's very difficult to tell what kind of route they may take, and it's probably best to just look at the options open to them for a late 2016 release, rather than try to predict what they should or would choose:
CPU
Best case scenario:
8-core A72 @ 2.2GHz (purely for games)
4-core A53 @ 1.8GHz (for OS, crypto, etc.)
Middle case scenarios:
8-core A72 @ 2GHz (six cores for games, two for OS)
or
8-core Puma @ 1.7GHz (six cores for games, two for OS)
Worst case scenario:
4-core A57 @ 1.7GHz (three cores for games, one for OS)
GPU
Best case scenario:
24 GCN 1.2 CUs @ 800MHz (~2.5 Tflops)
Very good case scenario:
20 GCN 1.2 CUs @ 700MHz (~1.8 Tflops)
Middle case scenario:
14 GCN 1.2 CUs @ 650MHz (~1.2 Tflops)
Not very good case scenario:
10 GCN 1.2 CUs @ 600MHz (~800 Gflops)
Worst case scenario:
16-core Mali T760 @ 700MHz (~400 Gflops)
RAM
Best case scenario:
4GB HBM - 512 GB/s
12GB (LP)DDR4 - ~60 GB/s
Very good case scenario:
2GB HBM - 256 GB/s
8GB DDR4 - ~40 GB/s
Middle case scenario:
8GB GDDR5 - 190 GB/s
or
8GB LPDDR4 - 100-120 GB/s
Not very good case scenario:
32MB SRAM - 200 GB/s
8GB DDR3 - 17 GB/s
Worst case scenario:
4GB LPDDR3 - 30 GB/s
Obviously there's a pretty big gap between best and worst case scenarios, but that largely reflects how little we actually know about Nintendo's plans.
Regarding the people who are asking why Nintendo would use a CPU that's more powerful than PS4 and XBO but use a GPU that's less powerful than either, there's a pretty simple reason: any of the default options for the CPU would be more powerful than the Jaguar cores used in PS4 and XBO. The Puma, A72 and even A57 are all more capable cores than Jaguar are, and are typically organised in quad-core clusters, making an eight-core configuration the most likely (as a quad core wouldn't really allow them to compete at all, and a six-core config would save very little die space and cause an awkward asymmetry when it comes to cache). Even if they only went with the "not very good case scenario" for the GPU in order to reduce cost and power consumption, an 8-core A72 configuration doesn't take up that much die space and can consume very little power. There's not really a whole lot of point in intentionally crippling the CPU just to achieve a "more balanced" system.
lwilliams3
Member
Rösti;200612776 said:
Can you elaborate on the bolded statement? I'm curious about your thoughts of that.
Really, the thoughts on which game is better are just opinions. Thanks for the patches and updates (and possibly a NX port/upgrade), Smash 4 will likely stay around for awhile. I also don't think we will see Smash 5 anytime soon.
Having said that, Melee isn't going anywhere, and Nintendo is not likely to replace it with a game that plays like it. The gameplay between Melee and SB4 and beyond are distinctive enough for them to co-exist. Nintendo already released SB64 on VC, so some type of Melee port is inevitable.
James Scott
Banned
With Smash being basically confirmed, I wonder if they should consider bundling it in with NX systems.
Being the amiibo game, it'll bring a large audience of new potential amiibo buyers.
It'll make sure that everyone who buys an NX will be exposed to the characters in the roster (Benefiting Bayonetta if she gets a new game and Cloud if NX gets FF7R)
If they make more DLC the entire NX user base can be a potential audience for it as well.
The game already made its money back unlike any other potential NX game like Zelda
I think it'll do a good job introducing people to their characters and making them more attached to the brand, which I think was the point of Nintendo Land
Being the amiibo game, it'll bring a large audience of new potential amiibo buyers.
It'll make sure that everyone who buys an NX will be exposed to the characters in the roster (Benefiting Bayonetta if she gets a new game and Cloud if NX gets FF7R)
If they make more DLC the entire NX user base can be a potential audience for it as well.
The game already made its money back unlike any other potential NX game like Zelda
I think it'll do a good job introducing people to their characters and making them more attached to the brand, which I think was the point of Nintendo Land
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
I merely remark upon the gap between an AMD 8350 stock (FX-8350 I assume) and the NX cpu could be either lower or higher than that in LCGeek's post. There's of course the potential SCDs to account for here too, so certain features of the CPU may be lower in configuration due to that.
Yeah, I meant CPU (power). That was a bit clumsy of me, sorry.
But that's just it, if they add characters. Unless Sakurai comes back, I have my doubts about any additional characters coming to a port of Smash 4 when they could easily be saved for Smash 5 (barring any characters who were near finished & cut due to the 3DS, like possibly the Ice Climbers). Likewise, Smash could easily sell on its own, thus making it irrelevant to sell the game as a bundle with the NX Console (since most people will get it anyway, which would mean less money in Nintendo's pockets).
Great post as usual, although i'd say that the best case scenario for RAM is far too unrealistic. It doesn't seem viable at all, while those for CPU and GPU definitely are.
1GB HBM+8GB DDR4 on a 256bit is the absolute best we can hope for, and even that is well beyond what i think they'll use. The middle case scenario (8GB LPDDR4 120GB/s) should be good enough for a 1.8-2tflops (or less, doubt they'll go higher) GCN 1.2 GPU anyway.
ultrazilla
Member
NeoGAF NXer's, any new news? Just got up after working the graveyard shift. Thanks!
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Totally missed that. Luckily, Thraktor saw it, and I saw his response, so here's my take.
I'll start from the foundation rationale: 28nm. As much as we all wish 14nm was the norm by now, that's not the case. Perhaps it will be in late 2017, but definitely not in late 2016.
From there on, the fab node puts Polaris on a big probation - that architecture was designed for 14nm, and unless AMD were developing NX's console APU in parallel to their stock design, so that the NX would have a Polaris 'lite' @28nm, we won't be seeing a Polaris in the NX console. That said, I'm fairly confident NX's APU will be a full-featured HSA design - IOMMU2 and all that jazz. Basically, a GCN 1.1 / ps4 featureset as a minimum, likely a GCN 1.2 (potentially with an HBM pool). How many CUs? Beats me. But I'm expecting xbone level of GPU performance, so whatever it takes to reach that at the desired TDP (read: clock & CU #s).
CPU-wise, I do expect an xbone level as the minimum, whether via ARMs or Pumas (I won't be repeating my position on the ISA subject). ARM-wise, I think nintendo can afford 8x A57 @2GHz-ish. If we were at 14nm today I'd have gone straight for A72, alas. Puma-wise - the same - 2GH-ish range. Yes, any of those at 2GHz would give NX an edge over xbone, I'm just giving them some margins.
Memory-wise - DDR4 or LPDDR4 for the main pool, depending how things pan out with the HX handheld - there's a clear economy-of-scale win to be had if the entire NX hw lineup could use the same LPDDR4 parts.
That should be all, unless I'm missing something.
Hero of Legend
Member
Smart idea. Every NX owner will know the names if they didn't already like Bayonetta and Cloud.
But it also means others like Sonic are automatically a known thing also.
Donkey Kong Arctic Burn.
Well, the best case scenario for the RAM is obviously very unlikely, but it's based on a few observations:
- Nintendo have a history of using split memory pools, and if they decide that they want to do so, but that SRAM is out of the picture, then HBM may be their only option.
- Nintendo used a very large amount of RAM relative to the system's power with Wii U, so they may do so again.
- Samsung is entering mass production of 48Gb 3733MT/s 64-bit I/O LPDDR4 chips, so they could actually get 12GB of 60GB/s main memory with only two chips. (Comparatively 12GB of DDR4 would likely be cheaper, but would currently require at least 12 chips)
- A large component of the cost of HBM isn't the chips themselves, but the cost of the interposer that the SoC and HBM sit on, the cost of assembling everything together into a package, and of course the logistical costs associated with all of these. For AMD's Fiji, the GPU die is manufactured by TSMC, the HBM by SK Hynix, the interposer by UMC and then it's all packaged together by Ankor. These costs don't vary all that much whether you're using one chip of HBM or four chips of HBM, you still need an interposer and you still need a company to assemble the final package.
As a simple example, let's consider the possibility that each 1GB stack of HBM1 costs $5, and the added costs of assembly, interposer, etc, are $20, regardless of how much HBM you use. So, for Fiji, AMD would be spending about half of the cost on chips and half on assembly. In Nintendo's case, they could get 1GB of HBM at 128GB/s for $25, or they could double both the quantity and bandwidth for a marginal 20% cost increase. Similarly they could quadruple both the quantity and capacity for just a 60% cost increase (which may seem excessive, but may allow them to push out the occasional game at 4K, which they might want to do if they're looking to compete on the graphical front again).
Alternatively, it's even possible that the packaging costs exceed the cost of the HBM chips themselves, perhaps as a result of SK Hynix giving Nintendo a good deal to ensure a continued stream of revenue from their HBM1 production line when AMD moves over to HBM2. In this case it would end up being 4GB by default, as the marginal savings from reducing it would be trivial.
That's not to say I at all expect them to come out with 4GB of HBM and 12GB of LPDDR4, but there is a not-quite-impossible set of circumstances which could theoretically end up with Nintendo going that route.
Thanks guys, i was originally responding to Thraktor's opinion on GPU, so that's wat i was asking about.
Reading your responses... i get the feeling both of you seem to go for the scenario where they will try to match XBO performance level and not so much PS4? Or am i reading that wrong? I know flippediflops aren't all there is to it, but PS4 reaches 1.8TF and this seems to be somewhat "wishful thinking" when i read the above.
Mysterious
Banned
But then it'll be known as the port console with old games. I don't think it's a good idea for launch, but after 6 months, definitely (e.g. TLoU:R & PS4).
Nx will likely fail if it does not at least match the ps4 from a technological perspective. Nintendo needs to realize that the casual market is gone. Their bread and butter is 20-40 year old people who fell in love with nintendo in the 80s-90s. Releasing another weak box will just be the wii u all over again as we are already 3 years into the generation, with iterative models coming soon. Maybe the SCD patent will pan out, we'll see.
Of course they will still put out content that both kids and adults can enjoy as they have to cultivate their future audience.
But putting out a box that's less powerful than the ps4, 3 years after the ps4 came out, will continue to cement the opinion of many that Sony and MS long ago surpassed Nintendo technologically as well as from a content perspective. Nintendo makes great games, but the volume of excellent 3rd party content that has been lacking on Nintendo platforms has not gone unnoticed. Having a weak box will not help them on the 3rd party front.
Of course they will still put out content that both kids and adults can enjoy as they have to cultivate their future audience.
But putting out a box that's less powerful than the ps4, 3 years after the ps4 came out, will continue to cement the opinion of many that Sony and MS long ago surpassed Nintendo technologically as well as from a content perspective. Nintendo makes great games, but the volume of excellent 3rd party content that has been lacking on Nintendo platforms has not gone unnoticed. Having a weak box will not help them on the 3rd party front.
Thirst is real
Agreed. If Smash didn't draw people to Wii U in droves, I don't think an enhanced port of it will do that for NX at the jump at least.
I don't think we'll get Melee HD.
Melee VC with improved image quality, that I can see.
To be fair, the 3DS could have stunted that as well. 3DS version came out first too.
Melee VC with improved image quality, that I can see.
To be fair, the 3DS could have stunted that as well. 3DS version came out first too.
I mean, we got Wind Waker and Twilight Princess HD.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Zelda isn't the same case at all. The games aren't really iterative like Nintendos two big multiplayer titles, Smash and Mario Kart, where each is meant to replace the previous entry.
I feel fully confident saying we'll never get updated versions of mario kart 1-7 or smash 1-3. I begrudgingly admit that there's a small chance the people asking for NX ports of 8/smash U might get what they want.
You'll probably get a VC version of melee if they ever get on to the whole gamecube virtual console idea, but that's it.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
I'd definitely be interested in remasters on the NX. Buying an NX will likely mean I get rid of my Wii U, so the titles I've not yet picked up on that console are ones I now feel more inclined to wait for, in case they make the transition to new hardware in some updated form.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Yeah, doesn't make sense.
Nintendo doesn't care about Melee like the fans do.
They've moved on.
Nothing says confidence in your latest entry in a series more than "oh, here's a remaster of an older version".
I think it would make sense to have a game like Smash or potentially another port at launch. I don't think the system would get that kind of label unless there are a crazy amount of ports.
I don't think it's about that. It's more like Linkstrikesback said, their multiplayer titles are meant to iterate and replace the older versions. VC will be the direction they go just like how we have all those Mario Kart titles on VC.
Would be nice to have every Smash Bros. game on one system.
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