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[GribbleGrunger]

Cerny wanted more engines capable of distributing graphics vs non-graphics work. The idea is essentially getting better utilization and getting closer to the peak performance of the APU. It was no coincidence that the CPU was quite weak so the GPU could also help out with the compute related tasks.

It will also come in play for VR, which is why I've been saying that they will be doubled in Neo/Scorpio.

Very much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[LukasTaves]

This is the key thing that everyone seemingly ignores. It's not power, it's not exclusives, and it's certainly not firmware updates -- it's global presence that's putting Sony so far in the lead.

Remove everywhere but the US and UK and they're basically tying. But this is a global game, and Microsoft has an uphill struggle reversing its fortunes outside of English speaking nations -- no matter how many flops its got or how approachable Phil Spencer is on social media.

That's absolutely right, but I think that Ms is also taking that into account with their plans. Because usually these other markets have a strong or growing Pc presence, and Ms could get those developers/consumers on board of the store and thus add more games to xbone.

(The new president of Ms Japan had all but said that this will be their approach in the region and all other places where xbox couldn't capture the market)

 

[ninjablade]

I wouldn't classify 900p to 1080p as a huge advantage. one game being 30 and another being 60? thats huge and I don't think developers would do it

i think any competent developer know's games play better at 60fps, for them to make such a sacrifice to hurt there game doesn't make sense, when it would essentially be free. cod ghosts is a great example that franchise was as pro xbox as you can get, the ps4 was 1080p and xbone was 720p that was a huge difference, probably more of a difference then 60fps-30fps for your average consumer. point is most developers that care about there games would want the best possible out come they can have, depending on the hardware.

 

[...Scatter...]

I'm not saying if any console could hit 60fps or whatever, I'm saying if the developer was in a scenario where one console can run it at 60fps but the other is limited to 30fps, I would expect the developer to lock both at 30

No way in hell

 

[icespide]

i think any competent developer know's games play better at 60fps, for them to make such a sacrifice to hurt there game doesn't make sense, when it would essentially be free. cod ghosts is a great example that franchise was as pro xbox as you can get, the ps4 was 1080p and xbone was 720p that was a huge difference, probably more of a difference then 60fps-30fps for your average consumer. point is most developers that care about there games would want the best possible out they can have, depending on the hardware.

we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think if high framerate is important to a developers game than that is a design decision that they make even before starting development and every facet of the games development has that 60fps target in mind and they will target the same framerate for each console of the same generation

 

[potatohead]

That's absolutely right, but I think that Ms is also taking that into account with their plans. Because usually these other markets have a strong or growing Pc presence, and Ms could get those developers/consumers on board of the store and thus add more games to xbone.

(The new president of Ms Japan had all but said that this will be their approach in the region and all other places where xbox couldn't capture the market)

Honestly there's really nothing the Xbone can do overnight to change their fortunes in markets like Japan, even EU is pushing it. It's always the US where Xbox can make a big splash though, and Canada too (similar culture and market to appeal to).

They have to come out really, really aggressive and swinging to make some real dents to the PS4 marketshare.

Like @get2sammyb is talking about, this is a very long-term game, and Sony is also playing their own cards very smartly (building upon the PS4 userbase right now as opposed to restarting anything). So it's even more to overcome from the Xbox side.

Assuming everyone puts their best in, which I don't doubt is happening, gonna be a really crazy console battle with the new consoles.

 

[Schnauzer]

Based completely on rumor but:

PS4 Neo
-significant upgrade
-low cost to entry
-day one ready for VR
-superior versions of games though not completely nullifying base model.

Scorpio
-Huge upgrade
-likely higher price point
-likely supports Occulus
-later release date
-best version of multi plats similar to PS4/X1 now.
-completely replaces current X1.

Based on this assumption I don't see MS taking back a significant amount of market share. The big caveat will depend on how long Neo is on the market before Scorpio.

What do you guys think?

Are you basing this on the same source that said the Xbox 1 would be more powerful than the PS4? *rolls dice*

 

[ninjablade]

we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think if high framerate is important to a developers game than that is a design decision that they make even before starting development and every facet of the games development has that 60fps target in mind and they will target the same framerate for each console of the same generation

you don't get it. a high framerate is important to developers, but graphics come first, but if they can get 60fps for free, then they sure as hell won't lock it 30fps, just to please fanboys.

 

[KinofChaos]

That's absolutely right, but I think that Ms is also taking that into account with their plans. Because usually these other markets have a strong or growing Pc presence, and Ms could get those developers/consumers on board of the store and thus add more games to xbone.

(The new president of Ms Japan had all but said that this will be their approach in the region and all other places where xbox couldn't capture the market)

None of this is going to change anything, PC is huge WW due to games like League of legends, Steam is huge...a couple xbox games on win 10 store won't do anything.

 

[icespide]

you don't get it. a high framerate is important to developers, but graphics come first, but if they can get 60fps for free, then they sure as hell won't lock it 30fps, just to please fanboys.

I completely get it, and it's not about pleasing fan boys but its fine we don't have to agree on this.

 

[LukasTaves]

Honestly there's really nothing the Xbone can do overnight to change their fortunes in markets like Japan, even EU is pushing it. It's always the US where Xbox can make a big splash though, and Canada too (similar culture and market to appeal to).

They have to come out really, really aggressive and swinging to make some real dents to the PS4 marketshare.

Like @get2sammyb is talking about, this is a very long-term game, and Sony is also playing their own cards very smartly (building upon the PS4 userbase right now as opposed to restarting anything). So it's even more to overcome from the Xbox side.

Assuming everyone puts their best in, which I don't doubt is happening, gonna be a really crazy console battle with the new consoles.

Indeed, for many markets it will be years until xbox as a brand becomes relevant, and sony is in a very strong position to prevent Ms from using the windows brand to dethrone it.

They will both have to bring their A game. I can see Ms offering cross buy/play with everything on the windows store, and sony leveraging their market position to gather even more exclusive games, and perhaps even making moves towards Pc to make more difficult for Ms to pull off their store.

It will definitely be interesting to see what they all come up with.

 

[LukasTaves]

None of this is going to change anything, PC is huge WW due to games like League of legends, Steam is huge...a couple xbox games on win 10 store won't do anything.

Well, obviously they aren't going to bet on attract more users by just offering some xbox games on the store.

They have just announced a tool that allows any developer to port pretty much any released game to the store and xbox. the tool is not released yet, but you can bet there will be a big push towards that.

 

[longdi]

Scorpio will. In fact, a little better than what most people think.

This thuway guy, he was already proven to be a false insider, so i dont know why you are still putting up the act?

 

[Journey]

Are you basing this on the same source that said the Xbox 1 would be more powerful than the PS4? *rolls dice*

Not too hard to figure out, but the rumors for Neo and Scorpio are pointing them to be ~4TF and ~6TF respectively. Can you take a guess which one would be more powerful?

 

[Inuhanyou]

The CPU is a bottleneck though for this chip. Hopefully they re-evaluate their CPU decision and put something a little more powerful in at a minor cost increase. (Doubtful I know, but we still don't know how far out these are anyway.)

I'd rather they stay the course. No point in changing everything now just to be top dog for a little bit, especially when they can save that for a stronger blow out next time.

Plus, the CPU already got an upgrade from the PS4's CPU, its far higher clocked, basically the limit of how much the Jaguar can be clocked

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The CPU is a bottleneck though for this chip. Hopefully they re-evaluate their CPU decision and put something a little more powerful in at a minor cost increase. (Doubtful I know, but we still don't know how far out these are anyway.)

I don't see the CPU as the bottle neck as some people do .
The old systems will be the biggest bottle neck .

This gen we have gotten more 60fps games than last gen .
The CPU bump will help with that some more but i don't want a bigger CPU if means a less powerful GPU.
At least not for a mid system gen upgrade .

 

[Inuhanyou]

I don't see the CPU as the bottle neck as some people do .
The old systems will be the biggest bottle neck .

This gen we have gotten more 60fps games than last gen .
The CPU bump will help with that some more but i don't want a bigger CPU if means a less powerful GPU.
At least not for a mid system gen upgrade .

That is what i'm saying. The current consoles will hold back the new units by default, and Sony even made the rules saying that was specifically supposed to happen.

So really, them staying the same in CPU architecture makes sense until they move on wholesale to a new architecture

 

[exmachina64]

The CPU is a bottleneck though for this chip. Hopefully they re-evaluate their CPU decision and put something a little more powerful in at a minor cost increase. (Doubtful I know, but we still don't know how far out these are anyway.)

If it comes out this year, it's just not happening.

 

[TheSpoiler]

This thuway guy, he was already proven to be a false insider, so i dont know why you are still putting up the act?

Waiting for that "check your inbox/pms".

 

[anothertech]

So with a power tweak and good venting, they can pump it up to 1200ghz and turn it up to 11? Got it.

 

[Inuhanyou]

So with a power tweak and good venting, they can pump it up to 1200ghz and turn it up to 11? Got it.

Not going to happen. They are already putting in an APU based on an 150watt part, plus upclocking their current CPU, this CPU doesn't like to be upclocked by the way, it turns up the heat significantly fast per MHZ

 

[Kyoufu]

The current PS4 is (and the PS3 was) really noisy, that's a cooling issue.

PS3 wasn't noisy. You're thinking of the 360 instead.

 

[icespide]

yeah the PS3 was always super quiet.

 

[clem84]

Is Neo supposed to be officially revealed at E3? If it's a 2016 product, they kinda have to don't they?

 

[icespide]

Is Neo supposed to be officially revealed at E3? If it's a 2016 product, they kinda have to don't they?

why do they have to?

 

[Portugeezer]

Curious to see their cooling setup.

PS4 is quite notorious for running rather hot and loud so I hope they are putting in some extra work into making this thing both powerful, yet silent and compact.

Basically, i'm asking them to do the impossible I guess. I just don't want an Xbox One like VCR unit in my shelf.

Whether that is true or not there aren't many heating issues with this gen consoles, hot air has to go somewhere.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Is Neo supposed to be officially revealed at E3? If it's a 2016 product, they kinda have to don't they?

They could announce it a week before release if they really wanted to...

 

[clem84]

why do they have to?

Well I could be wrong but I don't see them unveiling this thing in September and launching in October or November. PSVR is also supposed to hit this fall. Maybe they feel they'd be cannibalizing their own sales and so maybe Neo is an early 2017 product.

 

[Portugeezer]

PS3 wasn't noisy. You're thinking of the 360 instead.

360's disc drive was noisy, once they had game install option it was pretty quiet.

 

[cackhyena]

I think Gies said on Rebel FM that the rumors of Occulus support are unfounded.

 

[clem84]

They could announce it a week before release if they really wanted to...

Redesigns, or updates, are one thing but new machines have historically been unveiled months, even up to a over a year, in advance.

Then again, it's not uncommon for the Smartphone market to unveil their phones 3 weeks prior to launch so, who knows?

 

[SneakyStephan]

That is what i'm saying. The current consoles will hold back the new units by default, and Sony even made the rules saying that was specifically supposed to happen.

So really, them staying the same in CPU architecture makes sense until they move on wholesale to a new architecture

It really doesn't make sense at all

Say you play dying light or mgs5 remaster on psneo/scorpio (if it doesn't use zen)

Even if you left the framerate the same, you'd also still be stuck with the ultra low draw distance (lower than the lowest setting available on pc) in dying light, and you'd still not be able to use the extra high lighting and model detail settings in mgs5 (the former adds shitloads more lights and from a much greater distance, the latter gets rid of the pop ups from the console version)

You have a 6TF gpu and yet the graphics still look like the image on the right, because the one on the left requires tons of cpu performance

 

[valkillmore]

So one question I was hoping someone could answer is, how soon after Neo arrives does Sony start allowing Neo-exclusive features or DLC in games / exclusive Neo games?

 

[icespide]

Redesigns, or updates, are one thing but new machines have historically been unveiled months, even up to a over a year, in advance.

Then again, it's not uncommon for the Smartphone market to unveil their phones 3 weeks prior to launch so, who knows?

these aren't new platforms or your traditional new console launch. it's a total new thing for the console space. it's anyone's guess at this point when they announce/release these things

 

[serversurfer]

AMD Should make an APU based on Zen+480, which could really bring down the entry point for VR. You could probably build a little SFF PC for $500 which was VR capable.

I was just thinking that would make the basis of a really great Mac Mini…

Back on topic, it's good to have Polaris "confirmed," but like Thuway, I'd like to see a higher clock. Personally, I'd like to see the PS4 drop to $300, and be complemented by a beefy, $500 PS4K. That seems like it'd provide good differentiation, and maybe even allow Sony a little profit on the new console.

 

[potatohead]

So one question I was hoping someone could answer is, how soon after Neo arrives does Sony start allowing Neo-exclusive features or DLC in games / exclusive Neo games?

No one can answer this, on exclusive features or DLC. Not even Sony could answer this if they wanted to, it's not even time for them to decide things like that. There is no certainty. The only thing I can tell you is.... none of this exclusive to Neo stuff makes any sense for Sony.

Plus it doesn't make sense for say COD or BF to have exclusive DLC on Neo, that cuts out a whole 40 million PS4 owners immediately from a potential purchase.

Even for Sony exclusive games it would make zero sense from a sales perspective. Sell say U4 DLC exclusive to Neo would just be flat out dumb for example, cutting out again the established 40 million users.

Exclusive Neo games specifically has been ruled out by Sony btw.

 

[Josman]

If the RX 480 is a 5.5TF Flops GPS then it's the best value GPS and likely what both MS and Sony will aim for, I can't see a reason why MS could clock it higher than Sony, so I'm betting both will be about the same, MS needs price parity and same release date or they will get gapped again and Scorpio will become irrelevant if they come up with something more expensive.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Redesigns, or updates, are one thing but new machines have historically been unveiled months, even up to a over a year, in advance.

Then again, it's not uncommon for the Smartphone market to unveil their phones 3 weeks prior to launch so, who knows?

From where i'm standing this is an update to the PS4, and not a new machine. We even hear that it might be smaller and use less power draw than PS4.

It really doesn't make sense at all

Say you play dying light or mgs5 remaster on psneo/scorpio (if it doesn't use zen)

Even if you left the framerate the same, you'd also still be stuck with the ultra low draw distance (lower than the lowest setting available on pc) in dying light, and you'd still not be able to use the extra high lighting and model detail settings in mgs5 (the former adds shitloads more lights and from a much greater distance, the latter gets rid of the pop ups from the console version)

You have a 6TF gpu and yet the graphics still look like the image on the right, because the one on the left requires tons of cpu performance

But what if Sony's intent was not significantly increased graphics performance, but higher detail, higher res versions of current gen games that can't be any different feature wise from PS4 to begin with, with games that are GPU bound taking advantage of the GPU power?

Then those upgrades to visuals matter much less.

A lower cost upgrade for a better VR experience, that gives non VR players enhancements, can fit HDMI 2.0 inside of it and ship it as an upgraded PS4 complete with higher price tag makes sense.

 

[Insumatposa]

It really doesn't make sense at all

Say you play dying light or mgs5 remaster on psneo/scorpio (if it doesn't use zen)

Even if you left the framerate the same, you'd also still be stuck with the ultra low draw distance (lower than the lowest setting available on pc) in dying light, and you'd still not be able to use the extra high lighting and model detail settings in mgs5 (the former adds shitloads more lights and from a much greater distance, the latter gets rid of the pop ups from the console version)

You have a 6TF gpu and yet the graphics still look like the image on the right, because the one on the left requires tons of cpu performance

I really wanted a cranked up console version of MGS5 with higher LOD , lighting, draw distances and especially SSR but I don't think this will happen since MGS5 no longer belongs to Kojima and his team and Konami won't bother doing the upgrade on Neo/Scorpio, unless a miracle happens.

So one question I was hoping someone could answer is, how soon after Neo arrives does Sony start allowing Neo-exclusive features or DLC in games / exclusive Neo games?

We can't expect exclusive DLCs or content on Neo but maybe we can expect special graphical enhanced mods on Neo from games that will allow mods on consoles like Fallout 4 enhanced graphical mods etc..

 

[Ayato Kanzaki]

The current PS4 is (and the PS3 was) really noisy, that's a cooling issue.

My PS4 doesn't make a lot of noise. A lot less than the previous xbox and 360 I had. You should consider cleaning your own a bit, or maybe you got unlucky with a defective unit?

 

[Inuhanyou]

So one question I was hoping someone could answer is, how soon after Neo arrives does Sony start allowing Neo-exclusive features or DLC in games / exclusive Neo games?

I doubt they will personally. They have the rules down, and personally, just based on their position on the market, don't have to change their position based on what Scorpio or MS does. If this is just a PS4 upgraded to begin with, there's no need to take advantage of anything until the console after PS4K.

 

[rokkerkory]

If the RX 480 is a 5.5TF Flops GPS then it's the best value GPS and likely what both MS and Sony will aim for, I can't see a reason why MS could clock it higher than Sony, so I'm betting both will be about the same, MS needs price parity and same release date or they will get gapped again and Scorpio will become irrelevant if they come up with something more expensive.

Gps?

Who said ms is using 480x?

 

[Renekton]

How would BC work if Sony/MS ditched the Jaguar CPUs?

So long as the architecture remains the same (x86), then having newer CPUs shouldn't matter, right?

I asked the same question and it's hard to get a clear answer. Zen is a big departure from Steamroller, re-designed from scratch.

• Does it affect interconnects, GPU, memory timing, HSA, etc?
• Will code compiled for vanilla Jaguar break?
• Does this need major APU re-design?

 

[Proelite]

I asked the same question and it's hard to get a clear answer. Zen is a big departure from Steamroller, re-designed from scratch.

• 
  [*]Does it affect interconnects, GPU, memory timing, HSA, etc?
  [*]Will code compiled for vanilla Jaguar break?
  [*]Does this need major APU re-design?

Depends on how low level did the SDks for Ps4 and Xb1 allowed you to go on the CPU side. If you went by the APIs, the games are probably fine. If the game had native to the metal code, then it's probably fucked unless Sony / MS have an emulation layer for the lower level functions.

 

[longdi]

If the RX 480 is a 5.5TF Flops GPS then it's the best value GPS and likely what both MS and Sony will aim for, I can't see a reason why MS could clock it higher than Sony, so I'm betting both will be about the same, MS needs price parity and same release date or they will get gapped again and Scorpio will become irrelevant if they come up with something more expensive.

Same thoughts, MS will not want to take financial risks seeing that xbox1 sales are poor and mid-gen upgrade is a new thing. Vega HBM seems very unlikely now.

Since we know more of rx480 , it seems this is the chip for Neo and Scorpio. Maybe more clock speed and full CU units for either MS or Sony, but their GPUs should perform in the same ballpark.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

From where i'm standing this is an update to the PS4, and not a new machine. We even hear that it might be smaller and use less power draw than PS4.



But what if Sony's intent was not significantly increased graphics performance, but higher detail, higher res versions of current gen games that can't be any different feature wise from PS4 to begin with, with games that are GPU bound taking advantage of the GPU power?

Then those upgrades to visuals matter much less.

A lower cost upgrade for a better VR experience, that gives non VR players enhancements, can fit HDMI 2.0 inside of it and ship it as an upgraded PS4 complete with higher price tag makes sense.

All I see is a lot of assumptions. No one here(that is talking) knows what Sony's goal is with the Neo. We already know that are considering a higher tier CPU so overall performance(not just a slight VR boost) is obviously a consideration.

 

[c0de]

Depends on how low level did the SDks for Ps4 and Xb1 allowed you to go on the CPU side. If you went by the APIs, the games are probably fine. If the game had native to the metal code, then it's probably fucked unless Sony / MS have an emulation layer for the lower level functions.

Tell us what features a jaguar core has that is not available on newer x86 processors that has to be emulated.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

If Sony releases the Neo this year and Microsoft releases the more powerful Scorpio next year, would Sony then release a more powerful machine in 2018 and Microsoft again in 2019? Seems like we would have a teraflops war

 

[wapplew]

If Sony releases the Neo this year and Microsoft releases the more powerful Scorpio next year, would Sony then release a more powerful machine in 2018 and Microsoft again in 2019? Seems like we would have a teraflops war

Don't you love iterative console?

 

[exmachina64]

If Sony releases the Neo this year and Microsoft releases the more powerful Scorpio next year, would Sony then release a more powerful machine in 2018 and Microsoft again in 2019? Seems like we would have a teraflops war

More like 2019 and 2020.