-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)
- Thread starter Ahasverus
- Start date
Garrett Hawke
Member
Didn't seem like Batman gave a fuck, honestly. Going on about how
Superman caused so much collateral in MoS and then doing the same damn thing lmao
Also I was looking forward to Jena Malone cus it sounded like a big deal that she was cut but it really wasn't. She had a tiny role.
He's basically Blankman!
Such a pain how I have to wait for the blu-ray for this. Not really one for digital downloads of films, etc.
Bummer they couldn't release this as the version in theatres (possibly minus a few of the more violent scenes if they're that inappropriate) as all I read it seems that WB screwed up and put a worse film out there when they cut it down.
Bummer they couldn't release this as the version in theatres (possibly minus a few of the more violent scenes if they're that inappropriate) as all I read it seems that WB screwed up and put a worse film out there when they cut it down.
The Movie universe in working towards Batman being BatGod
Just watched the UC and I feel like with these changes it becomes a Superman movie and it's all the better for it. The ending actually had more emotional resonance for me and I feel the movie was a lot clearer in setting the sequel. Bruce's heel turn immediately following the fight still feels forced and unearned but Superman as a character comes across better and a bit more fleshed out in this version.
Well in the TC it was only one person who had died so maybe e just didn't know yet. This all comes back to Bat just not giving a fuck about criminals. Like it or hate it, at least it's consistent.
I would love to see the receipts here
How is Batman killing a few criminals the same as the collateral damage Bruce was afraid of? Lol cmon now
I'll estimate 5, at most, from the batmobile chase, 2 from the machine gun, one guy who runs onto the grenade even though that's not Bats fault, kgbeast who could still be alive, etc. Am I missing any?
Crate guy he definitely killed lol
Man that was impressive. My wife hated the theatrical version and she's flipping out excited for what we just watched lol. Now that makes me happy. I couldn't believe the crazy pivotal story that was cute. It really is a massive improvement and actually restored faith going forward.
All those people in that car chase are definitely dead. He sends the first one flying into a trailer, drags it behind him, swings around and uses it to land straight on another car full of guys, killing all of them. He fires his gun at the dude of the back of the truck with the minigun, shredding that whole vehicle. Then when he flies in from above and lands on the storage truck, he lands right on one guy.
brandonh83
Banned
You can't rent this digitally yet? I didn't care for the theatrical but am interested in this, however there's no fucking way I'm spending $20 in hopes that I actually like this version more. Guess I'm waiting until next month.
I'll have to look out for that when I watch the UC. Maybe the guy is just in a coma?
Still barely breaking 10 people lolYea he killed a lot of people
There is no way in hell KGBeast is still alive after his gas tank fucking exploded... Crate guy is definitely dead in the Ultimate Cut. Also in the UC, the dude he stabbed against the wall (lol) gets tortured even more before it cuts away, but I'd say the suggestion is he's dead too.
One of my favorite added moments that I haven't really seen mentioned much is the moment where Wonder Woman looks at Lois as they acknowledge each other as
. It's a quiet and beautiful moment and really sells that Gadot also flat out nails the compassionate side of Wonder Woman.
she is sitting over Superman's body
brandonh83
Banned
Does Wonder Woman do anything in this cut? All I remember about the final battle was her posing for the camera for about ten seconds. Twice.
I'll have to look out for that when I watch the UC. Maybe the guy is just in a coma?
Nope, the subtle details tell a lot. I wasn't sure it was a death in the TC but now, savage Batman.
I'll give you kgb but not the dude that got stabbed. Granted I haven't seen UC but it looked like Batmab stabbed him in the shoulder. Not sure what the lol is for, that was awesome
I thought that was was new but wasn't sure. It was poignant enough that I noticed at least
Warehouse brawl was fantastic. Beast mode batman like we have never seen before
xXCrazyCostaXX
Member
Just finished the UC. Movie was already a 7 to a 7.5 for me. It's a 9 now. Cleans up a lot of the mess and plot threads that didn't make sense. Can't wait for more. Sad that most people who saw the movie will probably never see this cut. This should have been the theatrical.
Movies have been releasing weeks early for digital purchase for a long time now. You will be able to rent digitally when it's available on disc in July.
The 'lol' was for how ridiculous and tonedeaf Batman walking up to a dude with a knife and stabbing someone is. That's not a thing I was really needing from this movie... or any movie. We're not talking like shuriken into someone's arm, or throwing a knife into a bad guy's hand before they reach an alarm. We're talking straight-up stabbing.
In the Ultimate Cut, there's an additional bit where Batman walks back up to the guy still stuck on the wall, does something to him (we can't see, it's out of frame) and the dude screams even more.
brandonh83
Banned
I typically just buy movies that I like, not big on renting so I wasn't sure. I always assumed you could rent/buy digitally early. In this case I'm interested in seeing if I like the extended version but not interested enough in blindly paying $20 to find out.
Vudu has buying both the blu ray and digital for $25. You can watch the digital version and they'll send you the blu ray when it's out.
That's what I did.
Ehh if they played up to it better Movie 2 would have been fine
Ahh I can relate. However, superman dying is like the least moving thing ever I saw it a mile away.
xXCrazyCostaXX
Member
Do the special features on vudu not show up till the physical release? The only one I have is the preview of the movies with Kevin smith
Isn't there a part where he blows up 3 cars during the rescue for Martha and just blows right through them? I mean I guess in that scenario what do you do?
brandonh83
Banned
That's a better deal, yeah, but didn't care for the movie so I have no idea if I'll actually like the extended version enough to want to own it.
People who try to tally off Batman's number of confirmed kills as if to say "Oh, he's not bad, just a few here and there" miss the point entirely.
Nolan's Batman killed people as well, plenty of them, but his rule in the Nolan movies was not "I'll never kill", but rather "I'll never murder". I talked about this in the other thread, but Nolan's Batman had a gentle heart and greatly valued life. The most significant act of taking alive was Harvey Dent. This was right after he saved the Joker's life. But he didn't murder Harvey. He pushed him off the ledge in the persuit of saving a child's life. He didn't realistically have another option, given how wounded he was and the situation at hand, and he certainly didn't intend to kill Harvey, and he felt horrible about it...but it can't be denied that Batman killed Harvey Dent. There was no uproar over that, or any of the other Batman killings because while the situation was one that resulted in death, Batman intentions were to avert it at all times.
I think there is a lot of pushback against the 'no kill' rule in live action. And I get why: It's simply speaking unrealistic to expect Batman to go through his kind of live without, in some way, dealing with death, and his no kill rule can get absurd when he's up against the kind of danger he is. Of course, that argument can be equally bounced back by pointing out that a lot of the danger is implausible to happen (like people escaping from jail over and over), if you're trying to go for a flavor of realism, so Batman's rule of not killing his villains makes more sense when he only has to stop them once before they're gone forever.
But then we have BvS Batman...Snyder made a statement before that Batman doesn't murder, he just commits a whole bunch of manslaughter. On a surface level, that's comparable to Nolan's Batman...but not actually. Both Batman's may have no problem with Manslaughter, but Nolan's Batman makes a concentrated effort to avoid death where possible. While death happens around him, he can make a convincing case that there was no other situation in which his actions would have worked. That's not the case of BvS batman. In pure technical terms, he commits manslaughter, because, for example, when he's in the car chase, his objective is to catch the car rather than kill any of these guys. The difference is that he clearly doesn't go out of his way to not kill them. It's clear that he has absolutely no regard for the lives of criminals and, by all indications, would happily murder them if he felt like that would be helpful. In fact, that's literally his objective with Superman. He's premeditating and making the objective to kill Superman. The premise of the movie is Batman trying to become a murderer. But it goes even a step further with that. With the Brand thing explained, I can only come to a conclusion that he only brands people as a sadistic power trip, because there is no reason for it otherwise.
People often praise Batman as the character of the film, and I can admit that Ben Affleck does a good job portraying him, but it depresses me to see that people praise this batman as the best incarnation of the character. I mean....people often try to associate Batman with mental illness, which makes sense, because his is a very psychological character, his rogue gallery suffering from all sorts of mental diseases and it's often a talking point that maybe Batman is as crazy as his enemies. But when people talk about that, it's mostly that suffers from a compulsion to perform feats of heroism because of what happened to him as a kid. But this batman is nothing but a cruel, sadistic, and angry bully whose more concerned with being on a power trip than actually helping anyone. It's the only explanation that makes sense with the fact that he goes out of his way to power trip while beating Superman instead of flat out killing him and then turning his position around when he realizes he can emphatize with him. Otherwise, the problem of his power, with the destruction of metropolis being a haunting reminder of what could go wrong, remains.
And that's when people usually go "But Veelk, the film makes it clear he wasn't always like that!" Who cares? There's no justification he can give that can justify his behavior in the present. Like, dude, I'm sorry that you suffered the loss of your parents, your Robin, your employees, whatever, but nothing about that makes any of this okay. Only someone of severely stunted emotional maturity would try to claim otherwise. And keep in mind, nothing has happened to him recently, as far as we know. I could forgive making bad judgements while in the midst of despair, but he lost his employees a year and a half ago and has done nothing but stewed his fury all that time and projected the blame onto a guy who wasn't to blame for it. Even moreso with the death of his parents and Robin. He's had time to process and reassess and turn his grief into something more productive.
"But Veelk, that's the point of this batman! He's a awful shitheel! Isn't that awesome?!" No. No, it's not. He's...pathetic. And he makes me angry. That, in itself, doesn't stop him from being a good character, but it really depresses me that many people frame up these qualities....cruelty, brutality, sadism.... as something to be admired. They can be fascinating to examine in well written characters, such as Walter White, and that's all good and fair but I find it a hard thing to conceive how they should be qualities to admire, and that's the vibe I get whenever someone cheers at how horrible a person Batman is in this incarnation. But even ignoring that, none of these qualities make Batman an interesting character to me. Fallen or corrupted heroes need some kind of tangible evidence of how they were once good, and what do we have? Alfred telling us "This is how it starts" and him mournfully looking at a defiled robin costume that he maintains. From the TC itself, I have no reason to believe that at any point that Batman wasn't a motherfucker from the jumping off point other than some vague remarks about how things used to be better. Better how? To what extent? For all I know, Alfred just means that Batman used to hide the bodies rather than just leaving them out in the open messily.
And without that point of contrast, all I have is this angry, fearful, piece of shit coward that wants to murder an innocent guy just because he projects the cause of his fears and insecurities onto him and only then spares him once he can in some way relate him to himself. Fuck this guy with a rebar. Especially in this poltiical atmosphere (which I normally wouldn't bring up, but given how this film outright fucking begs for it with it's parallels to 9/11, I say it's relevant), where people are routinely othered, hated, and blamed for all that is wrong with the world to the point where real and tangible acts of hostility are inflicted on them.
That's who this batman is. Fuck him. Whether his kill count is 5 or 500, he's a piece of shit.
Nolan's Batman killed people as well, plenty of them, but his rule in the Nolan movies was not "I'll never kill", but rather "I'll never murder". I talked about this in the other thread, but Nolan's Batman had a gentle heart and greatly valued life. The most significant act of taking alive was Harvey Dent. This was right after he saved the Joker's life. But he didn't murder Harvey. He pushed him off the ledge in the persuit of saving a child's life. He didn't realistically have another option, given how wounded he was and the situation at hand, and he certainly didn't intend to kill Harvey, and he felt horrible about it...but it can't be denied that Batman killed Harvey Dent. There was no uproar over that, or any of the other Batman killings because while the situation was one that resulted in death, Batman intentions were to avert it at all times.
I think there is a lot of pushback against the 'no kill' rule in live action. And I get why: It's simply speaking unrealistic to expect Batman to go through his kind of live without, in some way, dealing with death, and his no kill rule can get absurd when he's up against the kind of danger he is. Of course, that argument can be equally bounced back by pointing out that a lot of the danger is implausible to happen (like people escaping from jail over and over), if you're trying to go for a flavor of realism, so Batman's rule of not killing his villains makes more sense when he only has to stop them once before they're gone forever.
But then we have BvS Batman...Snyder made a statement before that Batman doesn't murder, he just commits a whole bunch of manslaughter. On a surface level, that's comparable to Nolan's Batman...but not actually. Both Batman's may have no problem with Manslaughter, but Nolan's Batman makes a concentrated effort to avoid death where possible. While death happens around him, he can make a convincing case that there was no other situation in which his actions would have worked. That's not the case of BvS batman. In pure technical terms, he commits manslaughter, because, for example, when he's in the car chase, his objective is to catch the car rather than kill any of these guys. The difference is that he clearly doesn't go out of his way to not kill them. It's clear that he has absolutely no regard for the lives of criminals and, by all indications, would happily murder them if he felt like that would be helpful. In fact, that's literally his objective with Superman. He's premeditating and making the objective to kill Superman. The premise of the movie is Batman trying to become a murderer. But it goes even a step further with that. With the Brand thing explained, I can only come to a conclusion that he only brands people as a sadistic power trip, because there is no reason for it otherwise.
People often praise Batman as the character of the film, and I can admit that Ben Affleck does a good job portraying him, but it depresses me to see that people praise this batman as the best incarnation of the character. I mean....people often try to associate Batman with mental illness, which makes sense, because his is a very psychological character, his rogue gallery suffering from all sorts of mental diseases and it's often a talking point that maybe Batman is as crazy as his enemies. But when people talk about that, it's mostly that suffers from a compulsion to perform feats of heroism because of what happened to him as a kid. But this batman is nothing but a cruel, sadistic, and angry bully whose more concerned with being on a power trip than actually helping anyone. It's the only explanation that makes sense with the fact that he goes out of his way to power trip while beating Superman instead of flat out killing him and then turning his position around when he realizes he can emphatize with him. Otherwise, the problem of his power, with the destruction of metropolis being a haunting reminder of what could go wrong, remains.
And that's when people usually go "But Veelk, the film makes it clear he wasn't always like that!" Who cares? There's no justification he can give that can justify his behavior in the present. Like, dude, I'm sorry that you suffered the loss of your parents, your Robin, your employees, whatever, but nothing about that makes any of this okay. Only someone of severely stunted emotional maturity would try to claim otherwise. And keep in mind, nothing has happened to him recently, as far as we know. I could forgive making bad judgements while in the midst of despair, but he lost his employees a year and a half ago and has done nothing but stewed his fury all that time and projected the blame onto a guy who wasn't to blame for it. Even moreso with the death of his parents and Robin. He's had time to process and reassess and turn his grief into something more productive.
"But Veelk, that's the point of this batman! He's a awful shitheel! Isn't that awesome?!" No. No, it's not. He's...pathetic. And he makes me angry. That, in itself, doesn't stop him from being a good character, but it really depresses me that many people frame up these qualities....cruelty, brutality, sadism.... as something to be admired. They can be fascinating to examine in well written characters, such as Walter White, and that's all good and fair but I find it a hard thing to conceive how they should be qualities to admire, and that's the vibe I get whenever someone cheers at how horrible a person Batman is in this incarnation. But even ignoring that, none of these qualities make Batman an interesting character to me. Fallen or corrupted heroes need some kind of tangible evidence of how they were once good, and what do we have? Alfred telling us "This is how it starts" and him mournfully looking at a defiled robin costume that he maintains. From the TC itself, I have no reason to believe that at any point that Batman wasn't a motherfucker from the jumping off point other than some vague remarks about how things used to be better. Better how? To what extent? For all I know, Alfred just means that Batman used to hide the bodies rather than just leaving them out in the open messily.
And without that point of contrast, all I have is this angry, fearful, piece of shit coward that wants to murder an innocent guy just because he projects the cause of his fears and insecurities onto him and only then spares him once he can in some way relate him to himself. Fuck this guy with a rebar. Especially in this poltiical atmosphere (which I normally wouldn't bring up, but given how this film outright fucking begs for it with it's parallels to 9/11, I say it's relevant), where people are routinely othered, hated, and blamed for all that is wrong with the world to the point where real and tangible acts of hostility are inflicted on them.
That's who this batman is. Fuck him. Whether his kill count is 5 or 500, he's a piece of shit.
Smokey_Run
Member
If you can get it to work. Some of us got errors when confirming our shipping address or some other step of the purchasing process.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yas Veelk. Perfectly sums up my issues with this Batman. I tried to articulate this to my boyfriend after we were done watching but I couldn't quite say it right so I will just send him your post
MegaManTrigger
Banned
@Veelk
Fantastic write-up on my issues with Snyder's Batman.
Fantastic write-up on my issues with Snyder's Batman.
brandonh83
Banned
I must be the only person alive that never thinks or cares about Batman killing people.
FunnyBunny
Member
YES.
It doesn't really matter to me that much either.
To be honest I didn't even notice he killed anyone in BvS, but so many people claim that he did that I just figure I must have missed it somehow.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Congratulations, you have correctly assessed that Batman is one of the villains of this movie.
Soon we will move onto other basic concepts of literacy, such as "Lois is Superman's girlfriend" and "Wonder Woman wears red."
Discotheque
Banned
I generally agree with most of this but we are given a sign of Bruce's heroics before the fall. I don't think the film justifies his downfall particularly well, doesn't really sell his change other than telling us "yeah he's an asshole now".
But the metropolis sequence was a good look at the 'heroic' batman that people were clamoring for, despite him being out of the suit. When you see him try to help that employee by lifting the debris, and then diving to save the girl and then consoling her immediately after. It was a pretty good pitch of a traditional Bruce Wayne pre-asshole mode. That's no less pure heroic a character than I've seen in any of these other comic book movies imo.
Anyways it's a bold move to make Batman a villain in your big tentpole film. I don't want to make excuses for the film's shortcomings, but in this case perhaps he's supposed to be the shit-heel in the film? This is very much the mistrusting Batman we know from certain comic storylines amped up to 11 and also instead of looking at him as being 'prepared' and 'cautious' the film portrays it more like a close-minded and almost xenophobic nut.
Garrett Hawke
Member
That is not what most people seem to have walked away with, or what marketing wants you to think, so I really don't think that was intended. Most seem to really like this Batman & the movie seems to try to portray him as heroic in a dark way.
Anyway, did it bug anyone else how Lex was basically the Joker? I know Lex is typically Superman's foil but he embodied the spirit of the Joker, right down to his mannerisms and shit on the roof top. It's kind of like what's the point in the actual one in this universe then?
That's a decent counterpoint. It just seems very tangential and lacking in personality in that case. Keep in mind, in that situation, there are no bad guys for him to wreck. A more notable contrast would have been if we see a scene of how he's in a fight against actual criminals.
brandonh83
Banned
Not saying people don't have valid points about it, I'm just so indifferent toward it myself. It's about on par with Spider-man taking his mask off in the movies.
GlenChivas
Member
I feel bad for Zack Snyder after watching this version.
Since March, basically everyone shit all over the poor guy. Dude never whined or bitched about it. Took one for the WB Team. And while it's still far from perfect, turns out he shot a pretty decent movie after all.
Since March, basically everyone shit all over the poor guy. Dude never whined or bitched about it. Took one for the WB Team. And while it's still far from perfect, turns out he shot a pretty decent movie after all.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Batman continuing to brand criminals when he knows it gets them killed bothers me more than any kill tally during the fights. If you know that's going to happen, why not just kill them yourself. He doesn't have a problem killing, so why bother with the police at all. It's like pushing someone off a cliff and saying it was the fall that killed them. I just don't get what pretense of justice this Batman is supposed to have. It isn't some situation where people only get killed in the act of trying to kill him. Some people live, some people die. It's whatever, they're just weeds. It's extremely inconsistent even with the added context from the ultimate cut. You're turning someone into the authorities, but you're performing a sadistic ritual on them that will get then murdered.
They touch on this a little with Superman when that women asks how does he decide which lives to save and which ones not too. But I have zero handle on what moral compass this Batman is operating with.
I think having another scene or scenes where Batman deals with "normal" criminals would help. The sex slave thing is basically all we got, and that ties into explaining some of Luther's plot. For all we know he could be selective about who he brands. But I don't think you can say either way.
They touch on this a little with Superman when that women asks how does he decide which lives to save and which ones not too. But I have zero handle on what moral compass this Batman is operating with.
I think having another scene or scenes where Batman deals with "normal" criminals would help. The sex slave thing is basically all we got, and that ties into explaining some of Luther's plot. For all we know he could be selective about who he brands. But I don't think you can say either way.