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So...did the Nintendo 64 just not do 2D well or did devs not want 2D games on it?
- Thread starter bman94
- Start date
Sony did that as well.
Pimpbaa
Member
Maybe they were wanting to get out a system that could do pseudo 3D games like their super scaler games in the arcade and wait for 3D tech to mature a bit and come down in price and then release a true 3D system. I guess early on in the development of the Saturn, Sony's console plans were nothing more than a simple CD addon for the SNES.
edit: bah! Dreamwriter said almost the same thing I wrote.
I do remember reading multiple interviews where both Yamauchi and Miyamoto stated that the N64 was made hard to develop for on purpose to "weed out weak developers",
sixteen-bit
Member
sure it was slowdown city, but that was part of the appeal
It's about the mentality of the era, and what video games had been up until that point. What a video game was and could be was still somewhat experimental and nebulous, so the opportunities presented by 3D tech naturally gave way to developers exploring that space. Pushing how technologically advanced a game was could be seen as a heavy appeal to consumers because it often promised something new. This was not really exclusive to the Nintendo 64, but the software library was smaller than what you found on the PS1, so the sampling of 2D titles seems even less pronounced.
Dreamwriter
Member
While Sony had an anti-2D policy, I don't think Nintendo did. Nor was the system underpowered for 2D. Really I believe it's just that the N64 games were so expensive to manufacture, and Nintendo made such a huge deal about 3D in marketing, that publishers were unwilling to try and sell 2D games on it.
I've heard from the mouth of an old Ubi dev himself that Rayman 2 in 2d was killed by Nintendo at the time.
Y'all are forgetting about MK Mythologies: Sub-Zero. The ultimate N64 2D experience.
N64 magazine's classic review of that POS:
Oh YESSSSSSSSSS
I remember reading that issue when it came out. Amazing. Carmageddon 64 and Superman were also classic reviews by them.
Oh man the days of digitiser and n64 magazine are sorely missed
I got a shitload of tat and won an action replay from n64 magazine back in the day and I also had my email posted on digitiser and insulted by Mr biffo too. Good good times
DownGrader
Member
I wouldn't really say that, a lot of 2D games were well-received... on PCs. RTS games, point'n'clicks (even if the latter were in decline) etcetera.
Funny how it turned out, since PC had plenty of 3D games (mostly aviasims) when they were unheard of on consoles.
Bony Manifesto
Member
That was in response to third parties jumping ship from Nintendo to Sony en masse. It was just some desperate attempt to save face and try to get back at those he perceived as traitors. I don't think anybody was fooled - the guy absolutely hated Sony and it killed him that they thoroughly outplayed him in the wake of the 'SNES-CD' debacle.
Sega Saturn went haaaaaaaaaaard into 2d games. There was extreme backlash against it and the PSX where Saturn was not viewed as a true next gen console because of it.
It did not help that the early 3d games for the Saturn ran like butt compared to the early 3d PSX games.
There was a real conscious decision by everyone to move to 3d rapidly because it was new and the future, and anything 2d was viewed as "old" and something that the SNES/Genny could handle.
I mean, fuck. Even bullshit 3d on the SNES/Genny was considered way cooler by lots of kids back then. What was that fucking 5 FPS offroad buggy game on SNES?
It did not help that the early 3d games for the Saturn ran like butt compared to the early 3d PSX games.
There was a real conscious decision by everyone to move to 3d rapidly because it was new and the future, and anything 2d was viewed as "old" and something that the SNES/Genny could handle.
I mean, fuck. Even bullshit 3d on the SNES/Genny was considered way cooler by lots of kids back then. What was that fucking 5 FPS offroad buggy game on SNES?
How was it not, exactly?
Take a look at the third position. Basically a SNES controller layout but for the face buttons on the right.
Pokemaniac
Member
Processor word size has nothing to do with how amenable a platform is to 2D. Even if it did, most N64 code actually ran in 32-bit mode, because with only 4-8MB of RAM, you get a lot of the downsides of 64-bit, with few of the upsides.
TheRealJakoozie
Member
3D was the next big thing, and everyone prioritised it. Which makes perfect sense and was the right decision in hindsight. 2D is today relegated to indie games and a few Nintendo platformers, 3D is where the money's at.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
The N64 is one of the only consoles in history to not get a Street Fighter game since Street Fighter II came out. The Xbone and CDI are the only other two I can think of.
TheMoon
Member
How was it not, exactly?
Take a look at the third position. Basically a SNES controller layout but for the face buttons on the right.
More like a Dualshock (due to the grips) with fewer shoulder buttons and two extra face buttons
Seriously, the N64 controller's three pronged design makes the best argument against this silly fairy tale of Nintendo forbidding 2D games^^
More like a Dualshock (due to the grips) with fewer shoulder buttons and two extra face buttons
Seriously, the N64 controller's three pronged design makes the best argument against this silly fairy tale of Nintendo forbidding 2D games^^
Ha, true. It's certainly no slouch for 2D games.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I fucking LOVED Digitiser, I remember counting down the minutes on Thursday afternoon waiting for the update
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
Add in the fact that carts are much more expensive and therefore risky for pubs, and few will want to opt for the 2D game at that time. On the CD systems the risk was much less so they took more chances.
Pimpbaa
Member
I find it baffling that people still fall for that bit wars stuff. The original xbox had a 32-bit cpu but it was clearly technically superior to the N64. The PC Engine/Turbografx 16 had a 8-bit cpu but could keep up with the Genesis and SNES in a lot of areas.
yeah, I remember watching some screenshots of this games and thinking that it looked amazing and that I wanted more 2d games on the console
Fuck that's some nice quality sprite work.
Dreamwriter
Member
I worked as a Sega rep at Toys 'R Us at the first Saturn Christmas, and I was told how to deal with people bringing that up. I was told to say that "Sure, the PlayStation games look better *now*, but the console is very easy to develop for, so in 5 years the games will look exactly the same as they do now. Saturn, on the other hand, has a very powerful 3D chip in it that's quite difficult for game developers to tap - developers like to push hardware as far as it will go, so just wait to see what amazing games the Saturn will get over the next few years."
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I waited so patiently for my N64 ports of Marvel Superheroes, Xmen vs SF, and SF 3. But they never came. Why did they never come?
Edit: I loved Starcraft 64. Doom 64. Hexen 64. Gimme that sprite work.
Edit: I loved Starcraft 64. Doom 64. Hexen 64. Gimme that sprite work.
Zombie James
Banned
How was it not, exactly?
Take a look at the third position. Basically a SNES controller layout but for the face buttons on the right.
Using those c-buttons as actual buttons was a nightmare. They were too small and too close to each other. They were bad enough to use in 3D games, I can't imagine how painful they would be in a 2D fighter or something.
HyperZone<3
Member
I remember playing a Dreamcast and Garou: Mark of the Wolves in a public space back in the day (so about late 2001). Its a pretty good looking game on the whole, with some really very nice sprite animation, and the only knock against it for its time being its relatively low resolution (chunky pixels and all that).
I still got some quips from passers by who were mystified by it. A modern system playing a 2D game? "Sheeit, son, this doesn't look any better then Street Fighter II, why you wasting your time on this?" Stuff like that.
Appreciation for 2D games really were pretty much wiped out during the mid to late 90's. Even popular 2D games would have some 3D elements there somewhere, just so they'd have a screen shot to show off on magazine adds or their back cover, "See, We've Got Polygons Here, Just as You Like Em'!"
I still got some quips from passers by who were mystified by it. A modern system playing a 2D game? "Sheeit, son, this doesn't look any better then Street Fighter II, why you wasting your time on this?" Stuff like that.
Appreciation for 2D games really were pretty much wiped out during the mid to late 90's. Even popular 2D games would have some 3D elements there somewhere, just so they'd have a screen shot to show off on magazine adds or their back cover, "See, We've Got Polygons Here, Just as You Like Em'!"
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Worked fine for KI, MK, and wrestling games.
I fucking LOVED Digitiser, I remember counting down the minutes on Thursday afternoon waiting for the update
I followed digitiser from the N64 release right up until the end. In the days before home internet, digitiser kept me up to date with gaming news every single morning before school, through the TV! I was the first to hear about Sega leaving the console business thanks to digi. And who could forget mr t's advice column:
I remember when channel four got new management (hi Michael "cunt" Grade) and Mr biffo and co were neutered. They got away with so much....and I still find it amazing that the final ever digitiser page was this:
Can't vouch for Nintendo though The Moon says that they didn't, but I do know that Sega US and Sony did have an anti-2D policy.
Jesus, I remember that pitch. Sega leaned into that *hard* back in 95.
Virtua Fighter Remix and that whole second wave of games (Fighting Vipers, Sega Rally) really did look super fucking good.
So, in a way it wasn't really a lie. I mean, they just slapped a fucking 3d chip in that fucker at the last minute IIRC when they realized everyone was going 3d in home consoles. I think Sega's intention before that was to try and keep 3d for arcades to keep them "special"
2D? What's that?
My big brother's nes does 2D. It's so lame.
Now that's graphics !!!!!!&!!!&
Is that a screenshot or a photo my friend?
Please reply soon, Im running out of AOL time and the phone might ring.
Waylon Drums
Member
I remember that it kinda felt like 3D was the next "step" and that 2D was over. At least for a lot of genres. I didn't think we'd see another side-scrolling Mario game, for example. Even fighting games started to shift into 3D.
In hindsight, it was silly, but it did feel like we had moved on.
In hindsight, it was silly, but it did feel like we had moved on.
KojiKnight
Member
Bull shit. I had an adaptoid and used it for YEARS for emulating SNES games and it worked amazing. I used the C-buttons as the face SNES buttons (ABXY) and AB as start select. I honed my MMX skills on that bad boy
Buttons were super responsive and the D-pad was really good.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
There was a developer on an old Dreamcast forum a long time ago that said almost exactly this. Basically, if you think about it, the Dreamcast was released just four short years after the Saturn; and just ~2yrs after the N64.
Supposedly, SEGA expected the next gen to be the epitome of 2D, especially with their competitors working on games like DKC. The plan was to release a "real" 3D system a few years later with "better than arcade" power.
I mean, it makes sense. I'm not saying it's true or the guy on some random forum wasn't just blowing smoke out his ass. But had the Dreamcast come out just a year earlier, under better circumstances, we could actually be comparing the graphical prowess of Ocarina of Time vs Sonic Adventure, in a scenario where Sonic Adventure would have already been out for an entire year.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
The cost of memory in carts cut into your profits. Compared to a cd, it just wasn't worth the risk.
Ogrebattle 64 had awesome art but it was compressed/filtered to hell and back to fit into the cart.
Ogrebattle 64 had awesome art but it was compressed/filtered to hell and back to fit into the cart.
TheMoon
Member
Again, simple logic: Why develop/publish your own 2D games when you have a policy against 2D games.
openrob
Member
I followed digitiser from the N64 release right up until the end. In the days before home internet, digitiser kept me up to date with gaming news every single morning before school, through the TV! I was the first to hear about Sega leaving the console business thanks to digi. And who could forget mr t's advice column:
I remember when channel four got new management (hi Michael "cunt" Grade) and Mr biffo and co were neutered. They got away with so much....and I still find it amazing that the final ever digitiser page was this:
Bringing that Teletext nostalgia man haha
RAIDEN1
Member
From reading some posts on this thread with regards to Sega, I also think it was somewhat strange, that the Saturn's focus was in the wrong-direction initially, yet in the arcade scene that was a whole different ball-game, working with cutting edge technology, or companies like Lockheed Martin, you'd have thought Sega knew that the future even in the consumer's home would be 3D....
Bringing out cutting edge 1992 tech, in 1995, was asking for trouble, especially as Sony had Sega in their crosshairs....
Bringing out cutting edge 1992 tech, in 1995, was asking for trouble, especially as Sony had Sega in their crosshairs....
KojiKnight
Member
I really don't think Sega didn't realize 3D was the future... otherwise they wouldn't have tried selling the system with games like Panzer Dragoon and Virtua Fighter. I remember when I bought my Saturn, the included demo disc didn't have a single 2D game on it I don't think.
Also, I'd trade the entire PS360 generation full of games for Dragon Force on Sega Saturn <_< Seriously, that game needs a modern sequel
inbarrenpraise
Banned
They absolutely did not. The laundry list of 2D games on the Playstation disproves this. Nintendo of America and Sega of America however did have anti-2D policies at the time.
It's like asking why won't there be many 2D games for VR. The point of the N64 and it's launch titles was the jump to 3D. When you first played Super Mario 64 you were blown away. Why would you want to play a Super Mario World after that. Nothing inherently wrong with 2D games or side scrollers but at that time everyone wanted 3D. Look at Goldeneye, look at Ocarina of Time etc. We all thought Metroid could never be adapted from 2D to 3D and yet look how phenomenal Metroid Prime was.
2D gameplay is very limiting compared to 3D.
2D gameplay is very limiting compared to 3D.
Pyramid head
Banned
I never felt like that back then. I knew 3D gameplay was going to be the future, but to me, early 3D graphics seemed like a huge compromise or a step backwards even. The shift from high fidelity 2D graphics where everything actually looked like the thing it was depicting, to blocky, mishapen lumps of polygons sneared with blurry, low res textures was jarring to me.
I can't remember exactly when, or to what game I attribute it, but it was a good few years before 3D visuals actually began to impress me.
As a kid who barely played the snes for 2 years, the first time that I saw the 64 I was mind blowed, it really felt like the snes was a thing in the past, I never hated 2d though, but just didn't caught my attention
Oddly enough, by the mid 2000's I started to like more 2d games (and even games from my childhood era) Is a feeling that I missed lots of great games from my youth that I wished I could have played back then
Oddly enough, by the mid 2000's I started to like more 2d games (and even games from my childhood era) Is a feeling that I missed lots of great games from my youth that I wished I could have played back then
Here is an anecdote for ya , heavily related to your query -
Back in 1997 , after receiving an N64 for christmas I had excitedly convinced a friend of mine to beg and plead for their own N64. They got one at some point that year (a birthday gift maybe ? I don't quite recall). Anyway, as anyone alive at the time might recall, the first year + of N64 had quite the software drought , publishers had switched the saturn and playstation because the licensing fees were much less and CD's could be manufactured for a fifth the cost of cartridge. It was at this point that my friend had asked me for suggestions on a game to buy so I recommended a recent release I had really enjoyed (on a rental) - Mischief Makers. So they ended up getting that game (another birthday gift, 3 kids in the family etc) and about a week later I get a phone call from my friends mother asking why I would recommend that title because it didn't look or play like a new generation game because it was in 2D. Later on I'd heard they were able to ship Mischief Makers back to Nintendo and received a copy of Mario Kart in exchange. Apparently they had successfully argued that a 2D game didn't belong on the N64 because that should have stopped with the SNES.
So I mean , if incidents like that could occur , surely publishers were aware of this too ? 99% of the games released on the N64 by the end of it's lifespan were indeed slapdash fully 3D efforts. The era of 2D was over because it was too difficult to market it properly and people expected big immersive polygon worlds.
Back in 1997 , after receiving an N64 for christmas I had excitedly convinced a friend of mine to beg and plead for their own N64. They got one at some point that year (a birthday gift maybe ? I don't quite recall). Anyway, as anyone alive at the time might recall, the first year + of N64 had quite the software drought , publishers had switched the saturn and playstation because the licensing fees were much less and CD's could be manufactured for a fifth the cost of cartridge. It was at this point that my friend had asked me for suggestions on a game to buy so I recommended a recent release I had really enjoyed (on a rental) - Mischief Makers. So they ended up getting that game (another birthday gift, 3 kids in the family etc) and about a week later I get a phone call from my friends mother asking why I would recommend that title because it didn't look or play like a new generation game because it was in 2D. Later on I'd heard they were able to ship Mischief Makers back to Nintendo and received a copy of Mario Kart in exchange. Apparently they had successfully argued that a 2D game didn't belong on the N64 because that should have stopped with the SNES.
So I mean , if incidents like that could occur , surely publishers were aware of this too ? 99% of the games released on the N64 by the end of it's lifespan were indeed slapdash fully 3D efforts. The era of 2D was over because it was too difficult to market it properly and people expected big immersive polygon worlds.
Waylon Drums
Member
I was also like 13 so I didn't know shite.
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