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Jill Stein on vaccines: People have real questions
- Thread starter giga
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Simon Belmont
Banned
Set the record straight here. I find both 9/11 and Sandy Hook to be fishy. I'm not anti-VAX, I'm not a flat-earther. I believe climate change to be a serious issue, I'm not even a conspiracy theorist, I just believe there do be some fishy inconsistentcies with both those official stories and I'll leave it that.
But Anyways... Man that new Zelda looks like fun eh guys?
Audioboxer
Member
No wonder, some stuff is just too outrageous to try and tackle or help a misguided person with. I think most people would draw a line at dead children being a hoax.
Anti-vax, flat earth and climate change stuff you at least hope unreasonable stances can be re-educated. So you try.
Jawbreaker
Member
The only blunder I can recall is the 1976 swine flu vaccination campaign in response to a pandemic that never came to fruition. There were 400 or so reported cases of GuillainBarré Syndrome out of 45 million vaccinated people, and the consensus is that there was indeed a causal relationship between the vaccine and GBS.
A Link to the Past
Banned
But yeah, we should all get back on topic before a mod gets mad. Sandy Hook truthers are a hoax anyway, so Who isn't even real. I just find some inconsistencies in him, you know? Gotta ask the tough questions
Jill Stein may not be saying "vaccines cause autism", but she is absolutely pandering to and empowering those who do.
Jill Stein may not be saying "vaccines cause autism", but she is absolutely pandering to and empowering those who do.
This is what I'm advocating and maybe the government needs to restructure the dispersal and explanation of information.
All food has to be labelled with nutritional facts, adding a label to the back of the rice box saying "bacterial CrtI, enriched with beta-carotene" is not a negative label.
The last statement is extremely anti-scientific.
Ok label me if that fits in your head better but uh yeah, labels are reductive and stupid.
By your reasoning: If im not sure that I trust the official story of 9/11, (which is more than 50% of the world) then all of the sudden I must also then believe in Aliens, lizard people, fake moon landing etc.
So no man I'm an individual with a varied and unique perspective on life. I don't think there's any label I would feel comfortable defending. I don't see myself as a conspiracy theorists just because I find somethings fishy.
Audioboxer
Member
Yup, that is the crux of many of our arguments.
Sadly we need people from Government in the public sphere to be the ones leading the public with sense and beneficial fact, and I say sadly because when they aren't a nation is being failed. They (politicians) may have some differing opinions on policies, but some things for the furthering of a nation should simply not be up to opinion, but scientific fact. Especially when we are talking disease prevention and saving lives.
Even one death of a child from something like this is one death too many in a superpower nation - https://news.vice.com/article/these-anti-vaccine-parents-found-guilty-in-the-death-of-their-toddler (edit: just noticed this is Canada, but same thought applies to American deaths)
smh
Sirpopopop
Member
It's about ethics in vaccinations, right?
SocksAndShoes
Banned
ShockingAlberto
Member
soul creator
Member
That's exactly how many people about Clinton's (and both major party's) foreign policy views and actions (which have resulted in the death of many children, of course)
I'm not saying it's wrong to find Stein's position a dealbreaker (I think it's wrong to pander to anti-vaxxers as well!). I'm just saying it's a bit odd to find Stein's position a dealbreaker, and then act completely shocked and surprised that someone might find, say, "supporting numerous damaging wars" a dealbreaker.
(not necessarily saying you specifically, but just speaking in general).
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's, sadly, not the only problem with Jill Stein:
Jill Steins Ideas Are Terrible. She Is Not the Savior the Left Is Looking For.
Jill Steins Ideas Are Terrible. She Is Not the Savior the Left Is Looking For.
Whatever man, you're always shocked lol
I mean, the evidence for "vaccines are fine" is much stronger than the evidence for "all military intervention is always known to be a bad idea in advance." I tend to agree with both positions, but one is clearly more of an opinion!
Audioboxer
Member
Probably the last time I'll ever reply to you, but I just found the whatever man and added lol to be the height of craziness in what has unfolded.
You have your right to free speech and freedom of ideas like us all, heck even like Holocaust deniers, but for your sake I hope you educate yourself and wake up one day.
Leave behind the at best edgy I'm a radical individual with individual opinions man bullshit, and at worst the genuinely offensive and dangerous "fishy" child deaths nonsense.
All the best, you're going to need it or end up needing genuine mental health help. No thanks to you I found out tonight what a fucking SH truther is. Genuine nightmare stuff. Scary, sick nonsense.
BrutishMrFish
Member
For a guy complaining about labels being reductive and stupid, you seem to have no problem with misrepresenting those labels in a reductive and stupid way.
Why is that? Is there something you're not telling us? I'm not really saying anything one way or another, I just find your views to be inconsistent and fishy, something that >50% of the posters in this thread probably agree with me on.
Nah man I think I'm actually pretty stable mentally
*twitches*
Anyways sorry to lose ya man. My gaming side opinions are probably more stomach-able to you if that's any help.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Edit: May work best without her winking mug in the corner.
Lys Skygge
Member
LOL! Wow! This reminds me of that 9/11 conspiracy episode of South Park....I think this clip is fitting.
9/11 All Over Again
Link leads to Hulu because the clip is blocked on youtube.
Messofanego
Banned
In case you need the proof that Who is a Sandy Hook and 9/11 truther and most likely other conspiracy theories. Fits perfectly with all of his posts that have a dashing of persecution complex, generalisation, and dismissing criticism sprinkled in.
MHWilliams
Member
Yo, let's table the 9/11 Sandy Hook side of this conversation aimed at a single poster.
Back on track please.
Again, Stein is not helping herself much. It's why the Snopes article posted earlier says "Unproven", not "False". Her statements paint no clear picture of her ultimate aim, and as others have pointed out, are essentially leaning a hand towards the anti-vaccination segment of her party or beyond.
Back on track please.
Again, Stein is not helping herself much. It's why the Snopes article posted earlier says "Unproven", not "False". Her statements paint no clear picture of her ultimate aim, and as others have pointed out, are essentially leaning a hand towards the anti-vaccination segment of her party or beyond.
I hoped the disappointing knee jerk outrage based on poor reading comprehension, "with us or against us" thinking, and jump-to-conclusions logic would get better if I skipped to the end of the thread. Seems not. Shoutouts to OP for that thread title.
Turns out everything is black and white, and a presidential candidate not going out of her way to outright disenfranchise a significant block of somewhat misguided constituents, while basically saying she's for vaccines must be absolute madness to you. "For or against" didn't die with Dyack, apparently it's a code to live by. And sorry, not trusting pharmaceutical companies is a thing many vaccine proponents can agree with, so look elsewhere for your smoking gun.
Also enjoy the "I dislike all these things about Hillary but Jill Stein said a thing I disagree with once so she's garbage," posts and people on some sort of ridiculous reverse high horse about the Green Party being evil because they'll somehow cost Hillary the election.
Turns out everything is black and white, and a presidential candidate not going out of her way to outright disenfranchise a significant block of somewhat misguided constituents, while basically saying she's for vaccines must be absolute madness to you. "For or against" didn't die with Dyack, apparently it's a code to live by. And sorry, not trusting pharmaceutical companies is a thing many vaccine proponents can agree with, so look elsewhere for your smoking gun.
Also enjoy the "I dislike all these things about Hillary but Jill Stein said a thing I disagree with once so she's garbage," posts and people on some sort of ridiculous reverse high horse about the Green Party being evil because they'll somehow cost Hillary the election.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Anti-vaxxers are dangerous. I'd sooner not see horrible diseases reintroduced to our society because one person said that vaccines caused autism and then said he was wrong.
Audioboxer
Member
Its politics to a tee.
On the other side right now you probably have anti-vax folk saying the opposite of us. She's giving those pro-vax fools the run around for their vote whilst really being on our side.
Its why certain bad ideas simply need zero tolerance policies, and while being obtuse may be smart politically its simply dangerous. Playing with lives is incredibly immoral and hopefully one day punishable for someone in government not simply to have a different policy, but to be an actual danger to the lives of innocent people.
Convicted people are already going to jail for failing to help their children medically. Why are politicians allowed to spread the same shit to millions? Ohhh she's just playing both sides! Ohhh her! The wise shrew.
No, sorry. At some point you need to be held accountable for saying dangerous shit. If you aren't... Well, look at the state of our politics right now. This is what happens.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
I think most of us understand that she's trying to play both sides, many of us have said as much.
It's like you didn't even read my post. Is this what it's like to be at a political rally just shouting slogans at the other side?
Good. I skipped from page 2 to the last page, so perhaps I missed more complex thoughts in between.
soul creator
Member
one could also argue that the evidence for "Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump will get elected and support/push for more foreign interventions that will almost inevitably cause the death of children, even if 'unintentional', because empire gonna empire" is much stronger than "Jill Stein will get into office and prevent vaccines from being used", which means that if we're truly concerned about the deaths of children, our discussion emphasis should be placed on the major party candidates.
But then again, it's possible that I'm just being an irrational moral purist who doesn't know what compromise means!
A Link to the Past
Banned
My point was that she was working both sides and one of those sides is dangerously irresponsible. Jill Stein will be rightfully called out for doing anything that validates such a constituency.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Are you at least consistent enough to endorse Trump's "something going on" claims?
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Sorry, but someone whose platform includes halting the sale of all GMO food products despite loads of scientific evidence pointing to its safety and zero evidence of it being dangerous doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when she dog whistles to the Jenny McCarthy crowd about how there are still so many questions about the "dangers" of vaccines.
Palette Swap
Member
If this thread proves anything, it's that Stein says the exact right words for a certain fringe to feel she represents them. In case it wasn't obvious from the start.
I think for some, it's the other way around too. People have decided to support third party because the other two parties are exactly the same, she's the choice, and now they're bending to fit into whatever "policy" she may have.
How bout this? ANYONE who is anti-nuclear (including Bernie Sanders) or doesn't recognize global warming is not fit to be President because that is the most pressing and dangerous threat to the world objectively speaking. Full fucking stop. Lets move on.
We cannot continue to have threads about how fucked we are regarding climate change and the political threads be mutually exclusive. I'm not sure why there is any other purity test beyond, "Who the fuck is willing to save the world in the fastest and most realistic way?"
We have people who say they wont or regret having kids and giving me fucking panic attacks about the coming 20-50 years and we're not all together on this? Why are people bitching about emails and bullshit that is whatever? I will vote for the devil if I think it's gonna buy my daughter 20 years of life. Sorry. I'm just starting to think people only pretend to believe in climate change when it's convenient to mock conservatives.
In this election, we've talked about the TPP more than climate change, and honestly, I doubt half the people talking about it even know the details of it. It's exhausting.
We cannot continue to have threads about how fucked we are regarding climate change and the political threads be mutually exclusive. I'm not sure why there is any other purity test beyond, "Who the fuck is willing to save the world in the fastest and most realistic way?"
We have people who say they wont or regret having kids and giving me fucking panic attacks about the coming 20-50 years and we're not all together on this? Why are people bitching about emails and bullshit that is whatever? I will vote for the devil if I think it's gonna buy my daughter 20 years of life. Sorry. I'm just starting to think people only pretend to believe in climate change when it's convenient to mock conservatives.
In this election, we've talked about the TPP more than climate change, and honestly, I doubt half the people talking about it even know the details of it. It's exhausting.
Audioboxer
Member
I can see this. At any cost I don't envy Americans right now. I think your political choices are shocking and downright distressing. I'd rather see Obama stay on longer than face the choice you have right now. At the end of the day though anyone but Trump is the best I can muster. It is truly depressing to watch the carnival of shit you have right now. As much as the UK has just shat the bed and dragged itself through the mud, you have your politics dragging you lot through the mud and you might even eclipse Brexit levels of embarrassment if Trump gets in.
I wouldn't trade my boss of a lady leader Nicola Sturgeon for anyone. I sincerely hope Scotland gets its independence and she can lead us fully and not via Westminster. Hopefully one day.
Americans are good people though. When you get a bunch of your level headed, compassionate and caring bunch together and mix in your enthusiasm for loving your country and being proud it is a beautiful mix. I just hope many of you won't end up truly crushed if your country has darker times to come politically. Once that fire goes out in the good people then its worrying times.
https://twitter.com/AlanKestrel750/status/758734246072586240
Probably posted, but just a reminder of how Stein really feels about the election.
Probably posted, but just a reminder of how Stein really feels about the election.
MHWilliams
Member
Huh. I... I don't even know how to parse that answer.
Jeez, even Trump can answer questions better than that.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah I mean that is pretty much why I spouted what I did above.
Its just embarrassing watching that as an outsider. Like a crazy women ranting on a street corner.
So you're a single-issue voter then? Nothing else is important to you, there's no perspective or larger context in which this is happening?
Why would I give a shit what Trump is saying. I disagree with almost everything he says. Every political candidate has issues where they try to have it both ways. Was Ralph Nader called out for the Green Party platform when he ran as its candidate previously? I honestly don't remember. For me, homeopathy is silly, vaccines should be given, and new nuclear power plants aren't a big deal. I don't believe Jill Stein actually disagrees with me on the first two, and I'm alright with the third as it's not personally important to me and I don't believe the GP has a problem with nuclear fusion.
When it comes to smaller parties, the candidates tend to be more individualist and don't entirely align with the party's platform. This is known, and OK. The platform is not distilled into an individual, the individual simply happens to agree with enough of it to agree to become a candidate. A platform is made to be as inclusive as possible of groups the party thinks might align with them.
"The benefit of the doubt" is a thing people seem to have in quite small reserves. No one gets the benefit of the doubt until you take them seriously, and apparently everything in the world is a farce now. No one is forced to take anyone seriously I guess, but it's disappointing to come into a discussion where so few do. As for GMOs, when I heard her speak recently, on that subject she focused entirely on having GMO food labeled. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. We can go on about platforms, but it's complete cherry picking. Do you own or have stock in a GMO? Do you think a Green candidate elected president would let food production die down to the point where people are literally starving to death? Is this the "logical conclusion"?
I question what sort of thinking is going on in your minds here. Look at her platform, look at Hillary's platform, or Gary Johnson's platform, hell, look at Trump's platform (does he have one?), and figure out who you most agree with. Pointing to random things and saying "this is the reason she's/he's garbage" is nonsense. Unless you're a single-issue voter.
Sigh. All I see here is she didn't answer the question head-on and the camera guy kept trying to interrupt her. Someone explain to me why this is the worst thing you've ever seen or whatever. What is she wrong about?
Melkezadek
Member
Anti-vaccination is a very big single issue.
And when she does have coherent policies, she agrees with Clinton 90% of the time. Re-posting from earlier in the thread:
Just remember that Jill Stein is trying her hardest to get Donald Trump elected because she disagrees with Hillary Clinton on only 9% of the issues.
From her own Twitter page:
https://twitter.com/drjillstein/status/742450334556028928
"We agree on:
- Economic issues
- Domestic policy
- Foreign policy
- Social issues
- Immigration
- Healthcare reform
- Education improvement
- Criminal reform
- Science (except for LOL GMOs and vaccines!)
- Electoral issues (Eliminating Citizen's United, battling voter supporession)
But fuck all of you BURN IT ALL THE FUCK DOWN"
Audioboxer
Member
Some single issues are just that genuinely serious that to hurdle over them for some "greater good" requires you to leave your morality at the door and live with feeling like shit for potentially supporting someone who believes something that genuinely offends you. Not just oh my god outrage culture offence, but boils your blood to your inner core that is some sinister shit offence.
I don't see any issue with someone's morality getting hung up on vaccinations. Its a single issue that leads to children's deaths. A child should not have their life cut short from a preventable painful death due to negligence and false beliefs.
Single issues can also be what highlights a depressing political choice if it comes down to voting the lesser evil. Pretty grim world we live in if ordinary people struggle to have a candidate that represents them, the people, without batshit beliefs and inequalities peppering the parcel in a great quantity.
I don't see any issue with someone's morality getting hung up on vaccinations. Its a single issue that leads to children's deaths. A child should not have their life cut short from a preventable painful death due to negligence and false beliefs.
Single issues can also be what highlights a depressing political choice if it comes down to voting the lesser evil. Pretty grim world we live in if ordinary people struggle to have a candidate that represents them, the people, without batshit beliefs and inequalities peppering the parcel in a great quantity.
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