The company is in Mexico.
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Techland requests SteamSpy to remove their sales data; SteamSpy owner annoyed
- Thread starter hamchan
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The company is in Mexico.
i don't see valve turning off public profiles and i don't think publishers want their games removed from them either, which is pretty much the only way this would work
i guess valve could play legal whack-a-mole and send C&D notices to sites like this as they pop up but that doesn't seem like their modus operandi
i guess valve could play legal whack-a-mole and send C&D notices to sites like this as they pop up but that doesn't seem like their modus operandi
But this information is already public. Literally anyone with a few hours on their hands and some basic/intermediate programming skills could get this information.
He's not exposing something that was hidden previously. He's taking something that was always available and summarizing it.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Aggregated Steam user reviews also hurt dev bargaining positions. Is Gabe Newell a scumbag for allowing them?
JasoNsider
Member
I've already taken a very mild version of this position in the thread. I can absolutely see reasons why I'd want my own sales info to be confidential between my distributor and I.
Also, yes, this needs to be understood by everyone. It's just clever harvesting/scraping of public data. I just don't think Valve intended for it to be used this way. The same way Valve probably didn't intend for open APIs to be used for gambling (I'm being very charitable, here)
s_mirage
Member
But the bad press was. Appearing to be facilitating underage gambling, and perhaps outright fraud, could have had real repercussions for Valve. Unless publishers are prepared to pull their games, this wouldn't impact Valve in the slightest.
As has been said, Valve's implementation of its refund policy could not have gone down well with a lot of developers/publishers. Yet it remains.
Real_Madrid
Member
So because you're a developer and want the data available, everyone should make it available?
Wasn't really the point I made though, was it? So, right back at you.
If I'm not mistaken, your point was that these developers (it's actually publishers, and only three of them out of the thousands out there) didn't find the data "useful", when the apparent reason for them asking isn't that they don't find the data useful, but that it helps them shield their employees from actual sales data. Which is useful only as far as terrible employment practices are useful.
So from my POV you missed the point. The idea that it's "not useful" to these developers is apparently disingenuous. There's an ulterior motive.
And he is obviously tired of this potentially shady practice so just put it all back up there. Fair play to him.
Yes.
Abilidebob
Member
I'd love for things to go that way, but corporations have their methods of doing things. If nothing bad comes out of it, absolutely great. But I can still feel that something is going to change, and not for the better.
Woah there! It's not his fault that Valve allows this kind of data to be public.
I do agree that it does put the developer in a bad position when it comes to bargaining.
Yeah, fuck them for protecting their interests...
Who cares if it's legal? I'm talking about respecting the dev wishes out of respect not of legal obligation.
Then yours will be? Techland doesn't for whatever reason.
they already have made it available by putting their game on steam, your product showing up on user public profiles is part of the deal
steamspy doesn't do anything but put a nice web interface on existing data that valve provides
Chobel
Member
Geez...
Real_Madrid
Member
But still, the data on Steamspy isn't accurate by any means if you want to calculate the revenue the company got.
Vital Tundra
Member
I believe I should be able to see sales data. You can with books and movies no issue right?
Cool. That CloudFlare cacheing system seems pretty robust.
The way I see it, the only company that should be able make such requests is Valve.
Seems like the guy is combing their databases to gather info, similar to what trophy/achievement sites do. How much of that is legal, all or none, I have no idea, but since this site exists for a while without any problems with Steam itself, guess its legit.
Previous requests were honored out of courtesy, and I can see where it can get annoying. But also less profitable, because I doubt this guy is doing the work just as a hobby.
Anyway, seeing that Steamspy is not honoring the requests, Techland and others should forward their complaints to Valve if they want any results.
Seems like the guy is combing their databases to gather info, similar to what trophy/achievement sites do. How much of that is legal, all or none, I have no idea, but since this site exists for a while without any problems with Steam itself, guess its legit.
Previous requests were honored out of courtesy, and I can see where it can get annoying. But also less profitable, because I doubt this guy is doing the work just as a hobby.
Anyway, seeing that Steamspy is not honoring the requests, Techland and others should forward their complaints to Valve if they want any results.
Real_Madrid
Member
Except it's not the sales data.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I'm saying that, as a developer, Steamspy's current policy is in accordance with what I want. I suspect many others feel the same way, and that this number far outweighs those who ask their own data to be removed.
This was in response to the poster who said "Steamspy should just respect developers' wishes".
Is this some form of "companies are evil, fight the power" speech? Yawn.
Yeah, it's public data that a website compiles. But it might have a negative effect on some devs and that's why they ask for them to not publish it. If you want to do that work for yourself nobody stops you.
Nobody is stoping you from doing it. But I think respecting that is the right move because why hurt them?
But yeah, fuck the man am I right?
Also, right and wrong have nothing to do with legal matters. Laws are not morality and it's weird how people correlate the two.
stump sock
Member
wait, why is it supposedly a bad thing that public sales/ownership data could affect a company's bargaining position? unless you're looking at it from the angle that one side of a sales deal should have a stacked deck?
and can anybody actually explain how on earth this would negatively affect a developer?
and can anybody actually explain how on earth this would negatively affect a developer?
My point was no more than what I said it was.
In your own post you have illustrated perfectly why replying with such condescension is best avoided.
the about page on steamspy.com is very clear that the numbers are owners of games pulled from public profiles only, not total sales. they're entirely upfront about their methodology and its limitations and it's not their fault if someone misuses that info.
that said any number of developers have vouched for this method's accuracy in determining their own game's sale numbers.
It's 100% legal. All sorts of companies and researchers use your twitter posts and Facebook usage for all sorts of studies and projections without asking. The information is public, and is therefore fair game for datamining. This is the same thing. In all of these services, you have the ability to make your accounts private if you want to opt out of participating.
It's also a good thing to keep in mind that revenue is different from final profit. All about overheads, cost of making product, etc.
Some people forget that when looking at sales data
.Still, this is all public information so I'm fine with this. And evidently, most publishers are or they just don't give a damn about it.
Can you show me developers who think they got hurt by SteamSpy? Honest question, because I haven't yet seen any complaints like that so far. I remember Wadjet Eye feeling uncomfortable about SteamSpy, since they felt like it allowed people to look into their private bank account, but apparently not uncomfortable enough to request a takedown.
Vital Tundra
Member
Oh, its something else?
What could Valve really do though? Even if Valve disabled scanning games using the api he could still manually scan profiles for the same info. The only way Valve could completely shut it down would be to make all profiles private but I don't see them doing that.
It will be interesting to see what happens especially if pubs and devs pressure Valve.
But anyone the dev is bargaining with could easily just collect this data for themselves.
Yeah, fuck them for making public information easily accessible to anyone.
Are you kidding me?
It's how many users have a game in their library. Inaccurate because a proportion may have it from other sources, yadda yadda. It's not precisely "through sales".
stump sock
Member
that was more or less what I was thinking too.
Yeah this is what I and other posters here was thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't SteamSpy use fully public data? They don't get their data from the "inside" or anything. The data is something anyone could see publicly? SteamSpy then just collects all that data into one website. If so then suppressing the data is not something SteamSpy actually has to comply with?
A person or organization has to determine if those wishes or requests are reasonable. Steamspy are now saying they are not. This isn't a controversy.
YianGaruga
Banned
I also still haven't seen a good argument for how the data would hurt anyone. Unless you think companies have the right to lie about their sales to business partners
for the average user the data is no more or less useful than reviews
for the average user the data is no more or less useful than reviews
Flame Lord
Member
If it's public information that anyone can get then I say keep it all up.
s_mirage
Member
No, but it is sufficient to draw the conclusion that paying your developers under $2500 annually and then firing them is unacceptable.
Valve do not have to capitulate to every demand a publisher makes. Companies in a dominant position can, and do, leverage their position to benefit themselves. Do you really think that publishers were delighted with Steam's refund policy?
No.
The ability not to reveal the numbers until a certain point in the negotioations so the game will initially be judged based on what the game actually is and not by a single number on the steamspy website.
Go to my gaf profile, then to my linked steam profile then click on games and then on all games owned, write all games down and then move on to the next person.
These are the basics of what steamspy is doing, 100% public available info.
The people they are negotiating with do not need this site to get this type of information if they want to see if this dev is worth investing in. They will get it directly from the dev's bookkeeper. (Info which will show even more detailed info than steamspy can ever provide.) If they do not comply, they will not receive any form of help.
JasoNsider
Member
There are so many subtle details that this data changes that people might have a hard time understanding unless they are standing square in the middle of it. It even changes business and social dynamics. Imagine any time you're going to meet someone that you know if they're made of money by pulling up your phone and googling them? (yes I know you can't 100% rely or 100% extrapolate, but when you're a small indie, there are some pretty fair assumptions you can make) That changes how people behave in a social situation, how they perceive you and how they conduct business. Yes, it's fair to say maybe people should just not make this affect/change anything, but that's equally naive.
Along the social/business dynamics line, I also personally dislike having this data precede or even trump reputation in meetings, because I'd rather we treat each other as people and creators first. I promise you people are using this thing in the industry to "measure" others and it's just kinda tacky and depersonalizing. This is not even starting about what happens with negotiations with publishers.
Anyway, I just wanted to say again that this is not so black and white. If you're a tiny studio, having your sales out there really could affect you. It's not so much a clear cut positive as many are making it to be.
Along the social/business dynamics line, I also personally dislike having this data precede or even trump reputation in meetings, because I'd rather we treat each other as people and creators first. I promise you people are using this thing in the industry to "measure" others and it's just kinda tacky and depersonalizing. This is not even starting about what happens with negotiations with publishers.
Anyway, I just wanted to say again that this is not so black and white. If you're a tiny studio, having your sales out there really could affect you. It's not so much a clear cut positive as many are making it to be.
A consumer should not and does not need to act as their defense force and comply with every single request just because it may "hurt" some developers.
It's public information. If it's the kind of information that can "hurt" a dev, that doesn't sound like a very stable dev in the first place. They are not entitled to any protection, and both legally and morally we (as the consumers) have zero reason to hide this information in the first place.
Companies don't need people acting as their defense force, and if they have to resort to hiding the truth then maybe they don't deserve the contracts they feel they should get.
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