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[commedieu]

Right but blackface is already a cultural thing where people are essentially making fun of another person. This is an outfit for kids to dress up as a Disney Princess, they are not one and the same.

I said it's not the same.

I was just pointing out that offense could be taken without word from a Polynesian to say so if it bothers you as cultural appropriation or whatever people are bothered by. For any Polynesian that says it's offensive, there will be Polynesians with differing opinions.

 

[Acerac]

would there have been outrage if it was not colored brown? I don't fucking get it

That's pretty much what it comes down to.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

I said it's not the same.

I was just pointing out that offense could be taken without word from a Polynesian to say so if it bothers you as cultural appropriation or whatever people are bothered by. For any Polynesian that says it's offensive, there will be Polynesians with differing opinions.

I think the movie and the merchandising will do a lot of good for Polynesian cultural awareness.. Costume included. We can't view everything in a vacuum.

 

[knkng]

What? People moan that there are not enough ethnic characters represented in movies and then they moan that making merchandise of them is somehow racist.

What has the world come to, when people get offended for the fun of it. It's almost like they feel they earn some sort of kudos for being the first to kick up a stink over something.

I've been noticing this more and more recently. It's very irritating. I wonder if some people even have a personal moral center, or if they just toe the line. They exist in some sort of ethereal state, waiting to cast down judgement over every social issue they deem relevant (usually something stupid that can be argued via Twitter campaign). The worst is when you see people fighting multiple issues with conflicting viewpoints. As long as they're on the "popular" side of the debate, then there's no need for complex or difficult resolutions. As long as you appear to be a "good guy" 24/7, then you must therefore be a good person.

As for the costume, of course the colored skin issue can be problematic under different circumstances, but I just don't see the issue here. If little Jimmy Whitebread wants to dress up as his new favorite Disney character, and this is the only reasonable way to make this into a children's costume, then so be it. It comes from a place of love and good intentions on the part of the child, so why deny him of dressing up as his new Polynesian hero just so you can make some sort of obtuse point about stealing cultures or racism or whatever. White kids having non-white heroes should be seen as a positive thing, and a step in the right direction.

 

[krang]

Disney releases Maui costume that lets kids pretend to be Disney character.

 

[Kater]

if you think about it, it looks like someone skinned a man...

Yep. That's some Ed Gein shit right there.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

So many things to be angry about and some people chose this.

 

[Mushroomer25]

This raises a certain question - is it still blackface if the costume in question doesn't even cover your face?

Personally, it seems like a double edged sword. Had they released a costume that ignored skin tone, accusations of whitewashing would emerge. As is, people accuse them of blackface.

 

[daviyoung]

So many things to be angry about and some people chose this.

low hanging fruit

 

[Redhood]

Clear material done

On a Kid! That much exposed skin is not good for little children

 

[jesu]

Why hasn't OP returned?

 

[krang]

On a Kid! That much exposed skin is not good for little children

OMG, lol. Someone really didn't think that suggestion through.

 

[Oersted]

What? People moan that there are not enough ethnic characters represented in movies and then they moan that making merchandise of them is somehow racist.

What has the world come to, when people get offended for the fun of it. It's almost like they feel they earn some sort of kudos for being the first to kick up a stink over something.

#AllCosplayMatters

I did not know that asking for better representation forces to endorse brown skin on sale, but than again, I think you made a parody post.

 

[KarmaCow]

This raises a certain question - is it still blackface if the costume in question doesn't even cover your face?

Personally, it seems like a double edged sword. Had they released a costume that ignored skin tone, accusations of whitewashing would emerge. As is, people accuse them of blackface.

The character design is not suited to this kind of thing so yea, not much they can do. I don't know what they could do but a skin suit seems kinda fucked.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I'm a very liberal person, but even I am amazed that people can somehow find this disgusting and racist.

 

[- J - D -]

Lose-lose scenario no matter what they say, most likely. Probably best to just keep quiet about it and continue selling it. I don't find it particularly offensive (I'm not white, btw because I know you're asking already). Worst case scenario, the fallout from Moana and subsequent merchandise selling gangbusters invariably results in the explosion of Polynesian cultural attire/apparel/jewelry popping up in boutique shops in owned by people with names like Piper Chapman or whatever other WASP-y equivalent.

 

[pinkurocket]

I find this costume will probably be more appealing to kids that have a similar skin-tone to the character anyway. There's only so much you can do to make the non-tattoo part of the costume 'clear' and it would be even worse if they made it a 'default white' skin-tone.

Like how would you make it clear. There's no fully transparent fabric. A mesh would look questionable since you're exposing the actual skin. It would need to be plastic but that might suffocate the lil kid.

 

[jadedm17]

not really sure what to get upset about. its not exactly a costume of a culture. its a costume of a specific character from a culture. those exact tattoos are specific to that character, no?

how is this different from any cosplay?

sorry if im being ignorant, but... this seems like a wierd grey area to me.

This was my thought exactly : It's of the character, not of the culture.

I may be wrong but this didn't seem offensive.

 

[Audioboxer]

Kids tend to dress up as any character they like regardless of that characters ethnicity or skin colour. That is part of the magic of Halloween, make believe and using their imagination to be their favourite character. Starting to tell our kids they can only line up with a character that matches their skin colour because "reasons" is precisely how you begin to corrupt children to not treating skin colour equally. We should only have white Elsa's and Anna's, right?

Being angry at this reminds me of the hula bobblehead cab girl, except worse because it's a kids halloween costume based on a Disney character.

Practically speaking it's already been covered why the material has been used for full body tattoo coverings.

 

[Nanashrew]

This was my thought exactly : It's of the character, not of the culture.

I may be wrong but this didn't seem offensive.

But isn't the character based from their culture?

 

[Dryk]

He's a cool character. And it's a bodysuit that will look stupid on white folk.

It will indeed look stupid. So how long until we get the first photos of a kid whose parent painted their face brown to match?

The backlash here is messed up. It's made to look like a particular character. I don't see how there is intent for mockery or appropriation in a kid's costume like this.

If people keep throwing outrage at such instances, I feel like these studios are just gonna go "fuck it" and become really weary of dabbling in anything that involves diversity, lest they offend and anger some people with every, little innocuous thing.

I love how every instance of "Maybe this was a bad idea" immediately turns into "outrage". Everything a studio does with respect to diversity will be scrutinised yes, but scrutiny isn't a bad thing and a lot of the time what seems like "outrage" is just discussion or heavy scrutiny.

Kids tend to dress up as any character they like regardless of that characters ethnicity or skin colour. That is part of the magic of Halloween, make believe and using their imagination to be their favourite character. Starting to tell our kids they can only line up with a character that matches their skin colour because "reasons" is precisely how you begin to corrupt children to not treating skin colour equally. We should only have white Elsa's and Anna's, right?

Exactly it's make believe and imagination, and skin colour shouldn't be important... so let's roll with that.

I think in this specific instance there's no way to cosplay as this character without inviting criticism. The character is way too wrapped up in a bunch of different cultural iconography.

 

[Hypron]

Why not? This is a discussion forum. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion on a subject. The intent on this outfit is for little kids to be able to dress up as a Disney Princess. It's not to offend an entire culture of people. In my opinion anyone who is offended by this is looking for something to be offended by.

Sure, everyone's free to make ignorant posts. Most people on this forum (myself included) know close to nothing about "Polynesian culture" (using quotation marks because I'm sure there will be variations between, say, Māori and Samoan culture and you can't just cast a net over all of them). We also know nothing or close to nothing about what is considered disrespectful to those cultures, so who are we to say whether it's disrespectful or not? We can say stuff but it doesn't have any weight because we're talking out of our asses.

The author of the article should have done some actual journalism and actually contacted associations and stuff, but I find the kneejerk "I'm offended at people being offended" replies just as grating.

 

[2MF]

Disney should just keep making movies starring white people. It isn't worth the cultural appropriation blowback.

Yeah, I think this might be the message here.

If you make white costumes, shame on you for making everything white.

If you make brown/black costumes, shame on you for letting people appropriate black skin with your costumes.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Sorry but this isn't racist... any character that has a lot of skin showing (ex. Ariel) has a skin coloured body suit so that the kid is clothed.

Also... finally costumes for kids that aren't white and people complain?

 

[Nanashrew]

not really sure what to get upset about. its not exactly a costume of a culture. its a costume of a specific character from a culture. those exact tattoos are specific to that character, no?

how is this different from any cosplay?

sorry if im being ignorant, but... this seems like a wierd grey area to me.

Actually in cosplay, if you want to wear a costume that's worn by a character of another race you just wear their costume as a white, black, hispanic or asian person. You never put on make-up or costumes that make you look like that race. That's never really welcomed and seen as offensive.

I've seen white Misty's, black Misty's, hispanic Misty's, asian Misty's from Pokemon and you'll not find any of them put on something that makes them look like another race. In cosplay you can be whatever character you want to be.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I wonder what the reaction would have been had they included a maui mask.

 

[Audioboxer]

It will indeed look stupid. So how long until we get the first photos of a kid whose parent painted their face brown to match?


I love how every instance of "Maybe this was a bad idea" immediately turns into "outrage". Everything a studio does with respect to diversity will be scrutinised yes, but scrutiny isn't a bad thing and a lot of the time what seems like "outrage" is just discussion or heavy scrutiny.


Exactly it's make believe and imagination, and skin colour shouldn't be important... so let's roll with that.

I think in this specific instance there's no way to cosplay as this character without inviting criticism. The character is way too wrapped up in a bunch of different cultural iconography.

Sorry I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. To be clear I'm not saying "skin colour isn't important" as some blanket remark to shutdown actual issues with racism/skin colour.

I'm saying in young kids, most who will be 10-ish and under, letting them use their imagination to pretend to be a Disney character is arguably more important than telling them you can't do this because sadly you were born white/black/etc. They largely won't understand WTF you are trying to convey and will probably internalize it in a destructive way. What they see is a Disney character they like and want to have fun being that character for one day of the year. I bet most kids don't even "see" black/white. As in they'd wear this costume without a care in the world their hands/face aren't matched up perfectly.

With how malleable a child's brain is, it's important not to raise them when young as seeing their skin colour as the defining importance of who they are. That breeds other-ism and potentially superiority complexes and/or shame of their skin colour.

We literally have adults online trying to "picture themselves/others" running around in this costume, IMO, completely missing the point we are discussing kids and Halloween.

When adults dress up for Halloween you can judge intent far more critically as we have fully developed brains and sadly if anyone is going to be trolling or being a shitlord, it's going to be an adult, not a 7 year old child.

 

[2MF]

With how malleable a child's brain is, it's important not to raise them when young as seeing their skin colour as the defining importance of who they are. That breeds other-ism and potentially superiority complexes and/or shame of their skin colour.

Completely agreed.

People want society to be less focused on skin color. Yet there's constant outrage about what you can and cannot do regarding skin color, or depending on your skin color. "Don't wear this if your skin color is X", "don't use hairstyle Y if your skin color is Z", "don't make a costume that looks like skin color W".

Why don't more people see the contradiction here?

 

[Dryk]

I'm saying in young kids, most who will be 10-ish and under, letting them use their imagination to pretend to be a Disney character is arguably more important than telling them you can't do this because sadly you were born white/black/etc.

I think that a lot of the problem here is specific to this costume. In that it's basically impossible to make a recogniseable cosplay out of Maui without including either racial traits or tribal tattoos, both of which are a sticking point with a lot of people. So like, it sucks that it's super hard for a kid to dress up as his favourite character without inviting criticism but I still think that receiving that criticism is justified.

A lot of the problems we have been experiencing with social media dogpiles lately are pretty easily explained by a bunch of people firing off their opinion at others without considering that thousands of people are doing the same. What looks like an angry mob on the receiving end is often just trying to get your thoughts heard from the perspective of a member of that crowd. I dunno what we're supposed to do about that though. (Also there are obvious race parallels to be drawn there).

 

[Audioboxer]

I think that a lot of the problem here is specific to this costume. In that it's basically impossible to make a recogniseable cosplay out of Maui without including either racial traits or tribal tattoos, both of which are a sticking point with a lot of people. So like, it sucks that it's super hard for a kid to dress up as his favourite character without inviting criticism but I still think that receiving that criticism is justified.

A lot of the problems we have been experiencing with social media dogpiles lately are pretty easily explained by a bunch of people firing off their opinion at others without considering that thousands of people are doing the same. What looks like an angry mob on the receiving end is often just trying to get your thoughts heard from the perspective of a member of that crowd. I dunno what we're supposed to do about that though. (Also there are obvious race parallels to be drawn there).

Well I mean you can expect parents to use non-permanent transfer tattoos, or paint brushes, but largely parents will choose not to put chemicals on their childs skin when they can. Not to mention who wants their young child walking around nearly naked? Or should I rephrase that to can you imagine the backlash online if parents did allow lots of "scantily" dressed children to walk around on Halloween?

The way it is done with a full body suit is genuinely the best way it can be done practically. See-through skin tight material with the tattoos still falls into the camp above of not wanting your children appearing fairly naked on Halloween.

 

[Oersted]

Kids tend to dress up as any character they like regardless of that characters ethnicity or skin colour. That is part of the magic of Halloween, make believe and using their imagination to be their favourite character. Starting to tell our kids they can only line up with a character that matches their skin colour because "reasons" is precisely how you begin to corrupt children to not treating skin colour equally. We should only have white Elsa's and Anna's, right?

Being angry at this reminds me of the hula bobblehead cab girl, except worse because it's a kids halloween costume based on a Disney character.

Practically speaking it's already been covered why the material has been used for full body tattoo coverings.

You didn't put black face on your kids yet, didn't you?

 

[Audioboxer]

You didn't put black face on your kids yet, didn't you?

I don't have kids.

As for "blackface", 99% of Halloween costumes are about clothing, not skin colour. As in Elsa, Frozen, it's about the dress. No one paints faces for dressing up as a princess. As for face painting in general, clowns are probably the only thing I can think of. If not aliens. Not painting faces black because a character is black. In those situations its the clothing that counts to allow children to be a character, and not being told no you can't do that because your mum and dad produced you as colour "x" and that fictional character is colour "y".

I just posted above how else can this costume be done that is appropriate for kids? It's a nearly naked body, just genitalia covering, so do you expect parents instead of getting a bodysuit to paint their children's skin and let them go out wearing nearly nothing?

 

[Dirca]

does it come with a WWE contract?

There's a Roman Reigns joke here somewhere

 

[Kinyou]

Wouldn't it be considered whitewashing if they did it with light skin?

 

[danthefan]

I honestly can't believe people are upset about this. Seeing the words disgusting and gross in this thread makes me wonder if some people walk around in a state of perpetual disgust.

This is exactly what I was thinking. They're all drive-by posts too with absolutely no explanation of what they are disgusted at, no reasoning or argument given.

I think there's a good point made that Disney are damned no matter what they do here - if they just have white princesses then its outrage and if they don't then its different outrage.

This is for kids who want to dress up as their favourite Disney character. If someone can explain the harm I'm all ears.

People want society to be less focused on skin color. Yet there's constant outrage about what you can and cannot do regarding skin color, or depending on your skin color. "Don't wear this if your skin color is X", "don't use hairstyle Y if your skin color is Z", "don't make a costume that looks like skin color W".

Why don't more people see the contradiction here?

I also totally agree with this.

 

[Nanashrew]

Well I mean you can expect parents to use non-permanent transfer tattoos, or paint brushes, but largely parents will choose not to put chemicals on their childs skin when they can. Not to mention who wants their young child walking around nearly naked? Or should I rephrase that to can you imagine the backlash online if parents did allow lots of "scantily" dressed children to walk around on Halloween?

The way it is done with a full body suit is genuinely the best way it can be done practically. See-through skin tight material with the tattoos still falls into the camp above of not wanting your children appearing fairly naked on Halloween.

But can you consider why it's not at least seen as a good idea? A character who is a Polynesian demigod, based on their culture and mythology with heavy amounts of cultural iconography being sold as a brown suit?

 

[Tevious]

I misread the title and my first thought was that this was some sort of re-purposed Darth MAUL costume made to look Polynesian by adding the ti leaf skirt.

 

[Audioboxer]

But can you consider why it's not at least seen as a good idea? A character who is a Polynesian demigod, based on their culture and mythology with heavy amounts of cultural iconography being sold as a brown suit?

I can see that is what some individuals are viewing it as. I would say that is their feelings to deal with, not the world at large to sort that out for them.

I see it as a costume to match a Disney character. Not a "brown suit". It's not exactly sold as "brown suit for your kids" ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ I'm still waiting to hear what the alternatives are? You or others approving of children going around fairly naked (with paintings/temp tattoos), or is the alternative simply going to be "this character is off-limits, no Halloween costumes".

 

[Keasar]

Every costume should just me the human being from Community, that way nobody can get offended.

Actually, I would just suggest dressing up as Vikings. Heck, a character from a children's movie? Do How to Train Your Dragon.

It is 100% proof. You can dress as any of these characters, we Scandinavians won't give a single flying fuck if you do. Dressed in a large body suit that is whiteskinned to represent one of the larger characters? We don't care. You're any non-white skin colour and dressed as a Viking? We don't care. You whiteface to dress as a Viking? We don't care. Doing a Scottish accent for some weird reason even though it sounds nothing like us Scandinavians? We don't care! Scottish sounds awesome anyway!

If someone complains, we Scandinavians will personally go to their house and beat them cause Vikings rule and everyone should be able to dress up as them! It is the 100% proof Halloween costume that people overlook cause I guarantee you, we don't give a shit here in the North. You get to be a fun character from a different culture that takes no offense to anything you can do. Why? Cause we're bloody Vikings that's why!

 

[teruterubozu]

Is a hula skirt and coconut bra offensive?

 

[Henkka]

Wouldn't it be considered whitewashing if they did it with light skin?

And if it was transparent, you'd have the same problem.

Let's just set the record straight... According to cultural appropriation theory(Or whatever), is something like this okay or not?

White american girl wearing a Mulan costume, so basically a kimono. One of the pictures in the "We're a culture, not a costume" campaign was an Asian woman holding up a picture of a white woman dressed as a geisha. So that's bad, but is it different if you're dressing up as a specific character or what?

 

[beato_angelico]

Completely agreed.

People want society to be less focused on skin color. Yet there's constant outrage about what you can and cannot do regarding skin color, or depending on your skin color. "Don't wear this if your skin color is X", "don't use hairstyle Y if your skin color is Z", "don't make a costume that looks like skin color W".

Why don't more people see the contradiction here?

identity politics

 

[Nanashrew]

Actually, I would just suggest dressing up as Vikings. Heck, a character from a children's movie? Do How to Train Your Dragon.

It is 100% proof. You can dress as any of these characters, we Scandinavians won't give a single flying fuck if you do. Dressed in a large body suit that is whiteskinned to represent one of the larger characters? We don't care. You're any non-white skin colour and dressed as a Viking? We don't care. You whiteface to dress as a Viking? We don't care. Doing a Scottish accent for some weird reason even though it sounds nothing like us Scandinavians? We don't care! Scottish sounds awesome anyway!

If someone complains, we Scandinavians will personally go to their house and beat them cause Vikings rule and everyone should be able to dress up as them! It is the 100% proof Halloween costume that people overlook cause I guarantee you, we don't give a shit here in the North. You get to be a fun character from a different culture that takes no offense to anything you can do. Why? Cause we're bloody Vikings that's why!

That's all fine. You're not wearing their race, just the costumes.

That's the crux of the conversation no one seems to get.

 

[Nanashrew]

And if it was transparent, you'd have the same problem.

Let's just set the record straight... According to cultural appropriation theory(Or whatever), is something like this okay or not?



White american girl wearing a Mulan costume, so basically a kimono. One of the pictures in the "We're a culture, not a costume" campaign was an Asian woman holding up a picture of a white woman dressed as a geisha. So that's bad, but is it different if you're dressing up as a specific character or what?

I'd consider the Mulan outfit perfectly fine. The Kimono stuff ways back was part of a larger complex issue though and a result of melting pots.

 

[Oersted]

I don't have kids.

As for "blackface", 99% of Halloween costumes are about clothing, not skin colour. As in Elsa, Frozen, it's about the dress. No one paints faces for dressing up as a princess. As for face painting in general, clowns are probably the only thing I can think of. If not aliens. Not painting faces black because a character is black. In those situations its the clothing that counts to allow children to be a character, and not being told no you can't do that because your mum and dad produced you as colour "x" and that fictional character is colour "y".

I just posted above how else can this costume be done that is appropriate for kids? It's a nearly naked body, just genitalia covering, so do you expect parents instead of getting a bodysuit to paint their children's skin and let them go out wearing nearly nothing?

I still have difficulties reading you wouldn't put black face on your kids(if you would have some)

 

[Audioboxer]

I still have difficulties reading you wouldn't put black face on your kids(if you would have some)

That's your problem then? When my argument is largely costumes/clothing are what matters then it's clear as day I won't be painting my child's faces black. I'm arguing the exact opposite, skin colour should not prevent a kid from having fun and being one of their favourite fictional characters.

What a ridiculous way to try and discuss my opinions considering I'm being very fair and going to lengths to explain my feelings. You just want to keep quoting me and trying to get some picture going I want to paint my non-existent children's faces black? *sigh*

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Huh.
Judging from this thread, I guess I shouldn't get upset about blackface anymore.
Some how it's different from that because it's for kids or something? Basically all the defense is " why are guys so outraged?", like that supposed to mean shit.

 

[BronsonLee]

As a true Hawaiian I demand you all buy this costume and then apologize to me

 

[Hex]

does it come with a WWE contract?

Five year with a guaranteed title run Uce

 

[RocknRola]

Actually, I would just suggest dressing up as Vikings. Heck, a character from a children's movie? Do How to Train Your Dragon.

It is 100% proof. You can dress as any of these characters, we Scandinavians won't give a single flying fuck if you do. Dressed in a large body suit that is whiteskinned to represent one of the larger characters? We don't care. You're any non-white skin colour and dressed as a Viking? We don't care. You whiteface to dress as a Viking? We don't care. Doing a Scottish accent for some weird reason even though it sounds nothing like us Scandinavians? We don't care! Scottish sounds awesome anyway!

If someone complains, we Scandinavians will personally go to their house and beat them cause Vikings rule and everyone should be able to dress up as them! It is the 100% proof Halloween costume that people overlook cause I guarantee you, we don't give a shit here in the North. You get to be a fun character from a different culture that takes no offense to anything you can do. Why? Cause we're bloody Vikings that's why!

On that note, y'all can dress as this:

And we will not care. Heck, we will invite you for food! All you gotta do is bring some wine!