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As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income

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GusBus

Member
http://www.npr.org/2016/09/24/49518...-some-say-well-need-a-guaranteed-basic-income

gettyimages-486107042_wide-64e83ee268584510509aed3d3fd2cbed5d393929-s800-c85.jpg

Customers use interactive kiosks to place orders at Eatsa, a fully automated fast food restaurant in San Francisco.
Much of the anger and anxiety in the 2016 election is fueled by the sense that economic opportunity is slipping away for many Americans. This week, as part of NPR's collaborative project with member stations, A Nation Engaged, we're asking the question: What can be done to create economic opportunity for more Americans?

When we talk about the economy, we spend a lot of time talking about jobs — how to create more of them and how to replace the ones being lost. But what if we're entering an automated future where there won't be enough jobs for the people who need them? If this happens, how will people pay for food and shelter?

In Silicon Valley, a growing number of those in the tech sector believe that one solution may be the universal basic income. Simply put, the idea is that Uncle Sam will cut citizens a regular paycheck whether they work or not.

Misha Chellam is a tech entrepreneur in San Francisco and is part of the burgeoning basic income movement here. He took me to Eatsa, a healthy fast-food joint, to show me why many in tech are coming to this conclusion.

If Apple opened a fast-food place, it would look sort of like Eatsa. The space is bright and the decor is sparse in that trendy modern way. But when we enter the restaurant, I notice right away there are no cashiers to take our order.

"That's part of the magic here," Chellam says. "We're not going to order from anybody. We're going to order from computers."

Chellam and I walk up to one of the iPads mounted on the wall. The first step is to swipe your credit card, which Chellam does.

"Now what are we going to eat?" Chellam asks after his credit card is accepted.

Eatsa's thing is quinoa bowls, and you can see photos of its offerings on the screen. I go for the burrito quinoa bowl and Chellam orders the kale.

A couple of clicks later we're done. There are about 15 to 20 customers in the restaurant, but just one Eatsa employee.

"I have this gut sense from having been in the Valley for a while now that there will be a coming wave of automation that's going to get rid of a lot of jobs," Chellam says, back at his office in downtown San Francisco.

It's unclear whether technology will eventually reduce the total number of jobs in the country. While technological advances make some jobs obsolete, the past has shown that tech has also created new opportunities.

But advancements in artificial intelligence are intensifying this debate. In Silicon Valley, there are lots of experiments in automation. There's the robot at Lowe's home improvement store in Sunnyvale, Calif., that checks inventory. There's the "robot butler" working at a hotel in Cupertino. And then there's Uber, which is experimenting with driverless taxis and trucks.

"And that would affect 3.5 million truck drivers, another 5 million people who support the truck-driving industry," Chellam says. "And that's just one example of automation."

Chellam says software is eating white-collar jobs, too, and everyone from bookkeepers to doctors and lawyers will be affected.


Chellam criticizes politicians for not talking about this automated future. At best, he says, they talk about "retraining," which doesn't address the scope of the problem.

"Take the truck driver example," he says. "What are you going to retrain 3.5 million people to do in a short enough period of time?"


Chellam believes as technology replaces more workers, the traditional 40-hour-a-week job could become a thing of the past. If that happens, how will families get health insurance or save for retirement?

Some experts say the only answer is a government-guaranteed paycheck that would allow people to buy food and housing. That would not only help the individuals but would help keep economic wheels spinning and generate tax revenues.

"Silicon Valley's interest in the universal basic income is one part guilt and one part optimism," says Natalie Foster, a fellow at the Institute for the Future, a nonprofit research organization in Palo Alto.

Some technologists suggest setting the basic income at $10,000 a year. Others have proposed raising carbon emission taxes to pay for it. Foster says there hasn't been enough research on basic income to have serious policy discussions.

She that right now tech workers are in the "inquiry and research phase." They're holding meetups and hosting panels asking what would it mean to give people money they didn't work for, Foster says.

In Oakland, they're about to find out. Y Combinator is funding a research project on basic income, where it will pay 100 people enough money for food and shelter — no strings attached. The prestigious tech accelerator helped launch companies that include Airbnb and Reddit.

Y Combinator declined requests for an interview, but in a blog post its president, Sam Altman, predicted that "at some point in the future, as technology continues to eliminate traditional jobs and massive new wealth gets created," some version of basic income will be rolled out nationally.

The debate about whether machines are taking our jobs is beside the point, says Chris Hughes, a co-founder of Facebook who is active in the basic income movement. He says that whether you like the idea or not, there won't be an alternative because decent-paying jobs are disappearing for millions of people.

"The reality is that work has changed. Forty percent of jobs are now contingent, meaning they're part-time, independent contractors, Uber drivers," he says.

And he says that shift has already left middle-class Americans economically insecure. A recent study by the Federal Reserve found that 46 percent of Americans surveyed didn't have enough cash to cover a $400 emergency expense. That feeling of insecurity is evident in this tumultuous presidential election.

"I think there is a sense that our economy is broken in many ways," Hughes says. "But rather than try to restructure our economy so it looks like the 1950s, I think we have to be honest with ourselves."

Hughes says that means basic income isn't an idea for the distant future but one we need to consider today.

I'm glad to see this issue getting some coverage. The political rhetoric about 'jobs' in the US is alarmingly detached from the pace of technology.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Why not just bring back slavery? It won't be racist because we'll enslave everyone. - Republican party circa 2045

:/
 

Bessy67

Member
It's an interesting concept, but where does the money come from? I mean, $10,000 a year for (numbers from my ass) ~200 million adults is another $2 trillion a year. Sure you could pretty much get rid of welfare and social security but does that cover it?
 

moojito

Member
It's that, or everyone goes to build a shack in the woods and live off the land.
And in that situation, people aren't giving their "free" money back to the rich.
So yeah, I can see it happening.
 

robochimp

Member
It's an interesting concept, but where does the money come from? I mean, $10,000 a year for (numbers from my ass) ~200 million adults is another $2 trillion a year. Sure you could pretty much get rid of welfare and social security but does that cover it?

Money would come from the same place our money comes from now, the good faith of the government.
 

Azih

Member
It's an interesting concept, but where does the money come from? I mean, $10,000 a year for (numbers from my ass) ~200 million adults is another $2 trillion a year. Sure you could pretty much get rid of welfare and social security but does that cover it?

It should come from the people benefiting from the robots and the AIs. The people who own them.

Seriously the future of humanity is The Culture or Bust.
 
It's an interesting concept, but where does the money come from? I mean, $10,000 a year for (numbers from my ass) ~200 million adults is another $2 trillion a year. Sure you could pretty much get rid of welfare and social security but does that cover it?

Where does any money come from, its all just numbers on a computer, just add a few zeros
 

120v

Member
It's an interesting concept, but where does the money come from? I mean, $10,000 a year for (numbers from my ass) ~200 million adults is another $2 trillion a year. Sure you could pretty much get rid of welfare and social security but does that cover it?

"welfare" has a stimulative effect on the economy. not saying it'd pay for itself, obviously you'd have to drastically cut military spending and the like. but it's probably doable
 

Mupod

Member
We've had this thread a few times before, but here in Ontario they've been talking about it. I don't think my job is vulnerable to automation but outsourcing has already had a severe effect on it.

As someone who really likes his line of work (IT), the problem is that many of the jobs available are short contracts. And when I finally did find a long term full time position, as soon as the company hit a rough patch I was the first to get considered for layoffs because I'm not directly bringing in money (I'm still here but it's precarious).

I still get by even with unstable employment because I make enough when I do work, but a 'safety net' would relieve so much stress from my life I can't even imagine it. And it'd cost the government roughly the same if not less than paying out tons of EI to me every time I get laid off. I could possibly even move back to where my family is (and jobs aren't).
 

Guevara

Member
Off-topic

Eatsa, the restaurant mentioned in the article, isn't fully automated. They just pushed the kitchen staff to the back, where consumers don't have to see them. Eatsa has 5-6 employees per location, which is about the same as your average San Francisco tacoria.

It's funny every time Eatsa is brought up as an example, because all they've really done is hidden the labor component. It's telling that people seem to like that!

Technology can and will replace a lot of jobs, but what I fear will really happen is: it will destroy decent jobs in favor of low pay, low security, low benefits jobs. Eatsa still needs people to cook the food, scoop your quinoa, etc. but they are literally invisible, faceless, replaceable people.
 

mackattk

Member
Yeah no shit... How are people supposed to live if they don't have a job or income? Not everyone has a super specialized skillset, there is just a limited amount of jobs out there as is it now, more and more will be lost from automation.
 

zoukka

Member
They will actually start a small scale basic income experimentation here in Finland in 2017.

Cool times we live.
 
Off-topic

Eatsa, the restaurant mentioned in the article, isn't fully automated. They just pushed the kitchen staff to the back, where consumers don't have to see them. Eatsa has 5-6 employees per location, which is about the same as your average San Francisco tacoria.

It's funny every time Eatsa is brought up as an example, because all they've really done is hidden the labor component. It's telling that people seem to like that!

Technology can and will replace a lot of jobs, but what I fear will really happen is: it will destroy decent jobs in favor of low pay, low security, low benefits jobs. Eatsa still needs people to cook the food, scoop your quinoa, etc. but they are literally invisible, faceless, replaceable people.
Yeah Eatsa is a bad example to lead with. We got McDonalds here that have touch screen kiosks to order food, but someone has to make the food lol. Big whoop, you took out the ordering part.
 

HerrPalomar

Neo Member
It's not only "low skilled" work that will probably automated. I work in a biology laboratory (Master in Molecular Biology) and I guess about 90% of the jobs can be and will be completely automated.

I once visited a BASF Lab here in Germany and they proudly talked about how many phd biologist they removed by completely automated a lab + analyzing. Instead of a couple they just need one to check the result and interpret them
 

Joey Fox

Self-Actualized Member
Why not just bring back slavery? It won't be racist because we'll enslave everyone. - Republican party circa 2045

:/

It's not nice to misquote people of the future; many of which are not even born yet and can't defend themselves.
 
Reduce military spending, and you probably have enough to cover this basic income thing.

lolno

Not even close.


Even eliminating the military all together wouldn't be enough for a significant guaranteed income.

If you take our military budget and gave all of it back to the American people in guaranteed income it would only work out to about $150 per month per person.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Off-topic

Eatsa, the restaurant mentioned in the article, isn't fully automated. They just pushed the kitchen staff to the back, where consumers don't have to see them. Eatsa has 5-6 employees per location, which is about the same as your average San Francisco tacoria.

It's funny every time Eatsa is brought up as an example, because all they've really done is hidden the labor component. It's telling that people seem to like that!

Technology can and will replace a lot of jobs, but what I fear will really happen is: it will destroy decent jobs in favor of low pay, low security, low benefits jobs. Eatsa still needs people to cook the food, scoop your quinoa, etc. but they are literally invisible, faceless, replaceable people.

Yeah it's funny.. because every time someone talks about this.. it's really about cutting 1 freaking employee in lieu of 4 or 5 kiosks.

Automation of kitchen staff is not even close to being done. Especially since people these days are rejecting pre-made for fresh made at a pretty good rate.

Also, there's so much to work out with automated trucking to replace actual truck drivers.

It's not just people, it's infrastructure. How do you fuel these vehicles, how do you tell it to wait and park under the bridge until the fucking ships load is actually ready because the port is backed up.. it's not simple.
 

border

Member
I tend to think these articles massively overstate how many jobs will be lost to automation. How are they going to automate a lawyer or a doctor?
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
It's not just people, it's infrastructure. How do you fuel these vehicles, how do you tell it to wait and park under the bridge until the fucking ships load is actually ready because the port is backed up.. it's not simple.

Those sound like very simple problems to find solutions for. Refueling you either a) have the minimum wage human that has to accompany the truck for safety issue fuel it or if its a time when automated driving no longer requires a human behind the wheel just in case than b) you have a minimum wage employee for the trucking lines at designated gas stations to refuel the trucks. For how you tell the truck to wait and park under the bridge the person on the dock goes *beep* *boop* *boop* on their tablet and all the trucks move in coordinated unison to their designated spots from the software.
 

whitehawk

Banned
Regarding automation replacing truck drivers, companies aren't going to want to leave their products unattended. Someone will still need to be in the car. If anything automation will make their jobs easier and safer, and will act more as security guards instead.

Not to mention someone needs to be with the truck when it needs a refuel.
 

Zukuu

Banned
Due to the basic income, you can cut the entire welfare apparatus and everything associated with it, which alone covers most of the cost.
 

PBY

Banned
I tend to think these articles massively overstate how many jobs will be lost to automation. How are they going to automate a lawyer or a doctor?
As a lawyer, my field is EXTREMELY susceptible to this and has been already over the last 5-10 years.
 
Regarding automation replacing truck drivers, companies aren't going to want to leave their products unattended. Someone will still need to be in the car. If anything automation will make their jobs easier and safer, and will act more as security guards instead.

Not to mention someone needs to be with the truck when it needs a refuel.
Refueling is really easy to automate. And when you remove the driver's cab, there's more room for fuel and goods anyway. ;)
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Regarding automation replacing truck drivers, companies aren't going to want to leave their products unattended. Someone will still need to be in the car. If anything automation will make their jobs easier and safer, and will act more as security guards instead.
The cost of loss associated with this will be offset by the savings of getting rid of the human workers. im sure the cost-benefit analysis of this scenario has already been calculated by software.

Not to mention someone needs to be with the truck when it needs a refuel.
Why do they need to accompany the truck when they can just be at the refueling station?
 

platakul

Banned
As a lawyer, my field is EXTREMELY susceptible to this and has been already over the last 5-10 years.
I'd say the maon thing holding back a lot of diagnostic jobs from being automated is insurance companies. Why do you need a tech running the xray machine. Feel like an app could solve this
 
Cool story.

You do realize that he was using those as examples right... with the implication that there are many professions that are not easily automated?
The point is that there are many professions that are not easily automated, but most are relatively niche within our economy (and most of them are good-paying, degree-required jobs anyway). Service, construction, manufacturing and resource extraction are some of our biggest sectors, and they're some of the easiest to automate.
 

border

Member
There aren't that many lawyers or doctors. Together, they make up less than 1% of the population.

There's roughly 2 million of them combined.

The actual larger point though is that I always see claims that jobs with a highly analytical component are in danger of being automated....but I rarely hear about AIs even capable of of holding a convincing conversation, let alone drafting motions or deciding how to plead.
 
Regarding automation replacing truck drivers, companies aren't going to want to leave their products unattended. Someone will still need to be in the car. If anything automation will make their jobs easier and safer, and will act more as security guards instead.

Not to mention someone needs to be with the truck when it needs a refuel.

Says who?

Gas stations will be automated as well. Never mind the fact we'll be well on our way into the electric vehicle transition.
 

Alienous

Member
I do think that, whatever the cost, there should be a 'basic income'. Perhaps not that, but housing and food treated the same way education is.

The US government is $19.3 trillion dollars in debt. That isn't ever going to be paid off. Money is a concept, and the idea of adhering to it to the detriment of people seems ridiculous to me. Capitalism is fantastic as long as there's a safety net.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
The whole problem that I'm thinking is that who is going to pay for universal income if nobody has a job.
 

TDLink

Member
Lawyer, Medical, and Entertainment jobs will eventually be the only careers resillient against automation. And even in those industries, certain automation will be in place that reduces the need for as much staff as they have today.

This is a major problem that we're going to have to look at as a society in the next 10-20 years.
 

-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
Isn't there like $34 trillion in all the world combined?
12 trillion of that. Means the US owes about half as much money that exists in the world in debt.

jeeez
 
The point is that there are many professions that are not easily automated, but most are relatively niche within our economy (and most of them are good-paying, degree-required jobs anyway). Service, construction, manufacturing and resource extraction are some of our biggest sectors, and they're some of the easiest to automate.

Eh. I think there are way more jobs that cannot be automated then can be.

Teachers for example, which is a massive jab center. All the attempts at creating automated schooling have only gone to show how terrible automated school is.
 
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