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[GeoNeo]

Vudu is actually ditching DV in favor of HDR and I am more then happy with my Samsung KS8500. HDR looks downright amazing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...ch-dolby-vision-hdr-exclusivity/#7b518d0f51b6

They are not ditching DV they will be supporting both formats. DV unlike say HD-DVD will just ramp up in support because a ton of movie releases are mastered in DV and projected in DV theatres.

No doubt HDR10 is the most "wide spread" implementation since well it's free, but it won't kill off DV especially with DV players and Medatek SOC's that support it expected to hit next year along with movie releases.

Samsung have already promised to update their sets to Dynamic Metadata, make of that what you will. The philips leak re. HDMI 2.1 was later altered so it's not exactly set in stone that it's going to be a new HDMI revision. I wouldn't be surprised if it was though and I sure won't be buying a new panel until we know what's going on with it. The consoles/GPUs will need updates too.

I'll wait and see what happens with Samsung I bet it's an "Evo Kit" like they rolled out for some 2014 TV's that added HDR support.

Would be great if this industry actually did not screw over customers when Dynamic HDR comes out, but I would not bet on it.

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

So far, it seems like I need to have my 2015 Samsung's "Dynamic Contrast" set to med/high to not have HDR blu-rays (Star Trek 2009) or Forza looking very washed out when the signal is coming through.

No idea if that's the "right" thing to do though. Frustrating trying to find info, too.

I do the same, dynamic set to high really benefits HDR, makes a big impact compared to SDR and choosing dynamic. It boosts HDR content to 560-600nits compared to 512 with it off.

 

[MANGOD]

JS8500 here, HDR is working fine it's a bit subtle but looks good. However due to the lower graphics preset vs pc I feel it brings the effect down a bit. Especially all the aliasing in the forests

Edit:
During the day it's subtle but once the sun starts going down daaaayum, the colors pop and the increased whites and deeper blacks are very nice.

Have u tried adjusting the hdr slider in options?

 

[Zhutchka]

Does anyone with a KS series Samsung UHD know if backlight is locked at max (or has to be set to max) for HDR to work at all in gaming mode? Or will you still get some HDR metadata applied if you run with lower backlight and accept the lower peak brightness and contrast? I like HDR, but full backlight on sets as bright as the KS series is not an option for me as there's just too much eye discomfort. I know the backlight for movie mode HDR isn't locked, but I've seen conflicting reports about gaming mode and can't test it for myself.

 

[Mrstriker09]

Anyone with a Samsung 8000 series or 9000 series. What number you have the brightness and HDR on forza settings?

 

[vatstep]

Anyone with a Samsung 8000 series or 9000 series. What number you have the brightness and HDR on forza settings?

It depends on the rest of your settings, but I have brightness at 42 and HDR at around the same (there's no numeric value).

I kept lowering my brightness but could still see the '1' in the left box; I think dynamic contrast may be to blame for that. I might recalibrate it with DC off, then turn it back on.

Does anyone with a KS series Samsung UHD know if backlight is locked at max (or has to be set to max) for HDR to work at all in gaming mode? Or will you still get some HDR metadata applied if you run with lower backlight and accept the lower peak brightness and contrast? I like HDR, but full backlight on sets as bright as the KS series is not an option for me as there's just too much eye discomfort. I know the backlight for movie mode HDR isn't locked, but I've seen conflicting reports about gaming mode and can't test it for myself.

It's not locked; none of the standard picture settings are (backlight, brightness, etc).

 

[Lucifon]

Does the photo mode disable hdr effects? When I'm staring at the photo on my screen vs the photo uploaded to forzamotorsport.net they look basically identical.

 

[iMax]

Does anyone with a KS series Samsung UHD know if backlight is locked at max (or has to be set to max) for HDR to work at all in gaming mode? Or will you still get some HDR metadata applied if you run with lower backlight and accept the lower peak brightness and contrast? I like HDR, but full backlight on sets as bright as the KS series is not an option for me as there's just too much eye discomfort. I know the backlight for movie mode HDR isn't locked, but I've seen conflicting reports about gaming mode and can't test it for myself.

The HDR picture mode is 'sticky' in that it will remember whatever settings you choose.

There is some misinformation going around that you know HDR is 'activated' when your backlight changes to 20. In actual fact, that's just because people haven't changed the HDR picture settings from their default values.

For the record, you'll know when HDR mode activates as you'll get a notification at the top of the display.

 

[DangerMouse]

I have the xbr850c and I just got the ks8000 this week. I was expecting the ks8000 to blow the 850 out of the water, when it came to HDr. Using the Revenant on a Samsung UHD player. I would say the difference is minnimal. Yes the Samsung is brighter. But not to the point of making the picture better. The HDr highlights mainly fire in this movie pop on both tv sets.

Actually because in my current setup the Sony handles color, contrast and motion better then the Samsung, you actually see more detail on the 850. The Samsung over saturates color so much that on bright scenes it will look more vibrate, but the Sony will actually process more shades of the individual colors.

I have only had the Samsung for a couple of days and can probably adjust it to more of my liking via calibration.

I don't have the Xbox one s so I can't test games on either tv. But when it comes to HDR on the Revenant at least the difference between 282 nits verse a min of 542 on the Samsung does not make much difference.

Yeah, I love my X850C

They both seem to be good sets.

 

[McSpidey]

So far, it seems like I need to have my 2015 Samsung's "Dynamic Contrast" set to med/high to not have HDR blu-rays (Star Trek 2009) or Forza looking very washed out when the signal is coming through.

No idea if that's the "right" thing to do though. Frustrating trying to find info, too.

The same is true for 2016 LG OLED and some HDR10 UHDs blurays, though I've also read "Dynamic Contrast" doesn't mean the same thing when in HDR mode as it does with SDR..but also would like more clarity from the TV manufacturer on this. I've seen a youtube video with a professional calibration tool developer state there's a big mismatch with HDR10, TV tonemappers and UHD Bluray mastering metadata where TV tonemappers are wrong so they're oversteering in the mastering/metedata to compensate but in the process breaking things further.

Add me to the list of people that wish Dolby Vision was the only HDR standard.

 

[BarringGaffner]

I think the low/mid res textures don't help HDR. That's why I really hope Scorpio has 12Gb ram.

textures have literally no effect on HDR.

Are you thinking about 4k?

 

[EvB]

So far, it seems like I need to have my 2015 Samsung's "Dynamic Contrast" set to med/high to not have HDR blu-rays (Star Trek 2009) or Forza looking very washed out when the signal is coming through.

No idea if that's the "right" thing to do though. Frustrating trying to find info, too.

What model of TV do you have?

 

[Rayme]

What model of TV do you have?

A "UN65JS8500", actually. Not top-of-the-line or anything, but decent input lag in game mode, etc. =)

 

[BigTnaples]

A "UN65JS8500", actually. Not top-of-the-line or anything, but decent input lag in game mode, etc. =)

Yes, Dynamic Contrast and Smart LED should both be set to high.

 

[EvB]

A "UN65JS8500", actually. Not top-of-the-line or anything, but decent input lag in game mode, etc. =)

Most places I can see reccomend having dynamic contrast set of off or low.

The Smart LED function is the one that is more relavant to HDR gaming at the moment.

https://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/samsung-lcd-tv/samsung-js9000-picture-settings.html
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js8500/settings
https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/samsung-un65js8500-picture-settings/

Those have all been calibrated in a non-game mode, so it may be worth doing the same to see how it looks and handles the sources , then work back from there, as Game mode will likely disable some of the processing required to handle the HDR input of a game

 

[gossi]

I have Forza Horizon 3 running on a Panasonic DX700 58" 4K (as recommended by Eurogamer) in HDR on Xbox One S.

It looks incredible. Absolutely incredible.

One thing to note - I had to adjust the TV options to get HDR to work. You have to change Picture to True Cinema, backlight control to min, and then enable HDR in the HDMI options - otherwise Forza just silently runs without HDR. Without HDR wide gamut colour doesn't activate, too, which is kinda key.

In my living room I have my original Xbox One setup too with my old same size TV (without HDR). The difference is obvious.

 

[MANGOD]

Just tried this just now and those who have not been impressed I would make sure that the hdr slider is maxed. By default its set to minimum for whatever reason. And goddam digital playground are microsofts answer to naughty dogs when it comes to getting absolutely everything out of the hardware. This game looks sublime, bring on the Scorpio patch!

 

[Footos22]

I have Forza Horizon 3 running on a Panasonic DX700 58" 4K (as recommended by Eurogamer) in HDR on Xbox One S.

It looks incredible. Absolutely incredible.

One thing to note - I had to adjust the TV options to get HDR to work. You have to change Picture to True Cinema, backlight control to min, and then enable HDR in the HDMI options - otherwise Forza just silently runs without HDR. Without HDR wide gamut colour doesn't activate, too, which is kinda key.

In my living room I have my original Xbox One setup too with my old same size TV (without HDR). The difference is obvious.

Didn't think Panasonic dx700 was Hdr10. I was on fence with this against the Samsung ku6500 and opted for Samsung when found out they are both not ultra HD premium certified.

 

[Simbo]

I was looking at the dx750 and was put off because it only has an 8 bit panel. Read that it will accept the HDR10 signal however won't show the full colour gamut.

 

[phant0m]

Spoiler

I know the game isn't officially out yet, but I have a feeling that people who've ponied up for a 4K set and an Xbox One S may also be Ultimate Edition owners.

Unless you're a chump like me and got in on 4K before HDR was the new "thing". And bought a great "4K60" receiver that doesn't support HDCP2.2

 

[EvB]

I was looking at the dx750 and was put off because it only has an 8 bit panel. Read that it will accept the HDR10 signal however won't show the full colour gamut.

Yeah, totally pointless.

That's like a 720p monitor that can accept a 4K signal

 

[bonej]

Will we update hdr10 with hdmi 2.1 and dynamic meta data or will we just jump to hdr12 directly, which will incorporate all of this

 

[Footos22]

Yeah, totally pointless.

That's like a 720p monitor that can accept a 4K signal

Yeah.... Not quite there is still a big improvement over sdr.

 

[EvB]

Yeah.... Not quite there is still a big improvement over sdr.

How?

Because you are taking the native ability to display 1024 levels of luminance on each channel and then display only 256 of those . The output would be identical because the screen physically can't display it.

 

[killroy87]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but is the HDR toggleable on an HDR set? I have a Sony XBR55X850D, and definitely want to try it out with HDR, but if the input lag sucks then I want it off.

 

[gossi]

Didn't think Panasonic dx700 was Hdr10. I was on fence with this against the Samsung ku6500 and opted for Samsung when found out they are both not ultra HD premium certified.

It verifies on Xbox One S as HDR10, and displays in 10-bit Color (despite the tech specs). Obviously, you don't get the full gamut, it's about 70%.

Worth nothing I have both consoles and both TVs - one with HDR and one without - sat in my living room next to each other, using Forza Horizon 3, and I found out how to match time of day. There is a huge difference. Trust me. It's almost night and day.

Here's both systems set up:

Here's the Panasonic DX700 58":

Here's HDR activating as Forza loads:

Screenshots and monitors don't display the difference so it's kinda hard tech to demonstrate.

 

[DJ Lushious]

Vudu is actually ditching DV in favor of HDR and I am more then happy with my Samsung KS8500. HDR looks downright amazing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...ch-dolby-vision-hdr-exclusivity/#7b518d0f51b6

Never mind, beaten.

+1 to DV being the end-all HDR format.

I can't wait for Vizio to fix their shit so I can finally play this game. I'm loving all the positive impressions.

 

[EvB]

It verifies on Xbox One S as HDR10, and displays in 10-bit Color (despite the tech specs). Obviously, you don't get the full gamut, it's about 70%.

8bit panels can only physically display 16.8million colours whereas a 10-bit panel can display over 1billion

That means an 8bit panel is displaying 1.5% of what a 10bit panel can when both are presented with the same 10-bit Colin source

 

[grizzelye]

textures have literally no effect on HDR.

Are you thinking about 4k?

4K, high quality textures and HDR is the next step. The impact is lessened if you use lower quality textures (imo)

From looking at the PS4 pro vs 4K PC comparisons the texture quality on the PS4 pro are medium level(?), due to only have 8GB ram (shared with OS)

I've been playing NBA2k17 and the low quality textures and vids really distracting from the experience.

So far I've not been impressed with 1080p HDR (low/medium textures)

I'll test Forza Horizon 3 tonight!

 

[etta]

.

Hey gossi, can you take some photographs with your camera with FH3 HDR enabled and disabled? Adjust the TV accordingly, too.

 

[gossi]

8bit panels can only physically display 16.8million colours whereas a 10-bit panel can display over 1billion

That means an 8bit panel is displaying 1.5% of what a 10bit panel can when both are presented with the same 10-bit Colin source

It doesn't translate like that in reality - on the Panasonic 8 bit panels they use backlight tricks to help. There is not a 99% loss of quality - I'm stood looking at the difference.

There's a bunch of reviews, such as this one - https://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-dx700-tx-58dx700b-uhd-4k-tv-review.12515 - which place the gamut color of Rec 2020 around 70% of the spectrum. It's an extremely clear difference.

 

[EvB]

It doesn't translate like that in reality - on the Panasonic 8 bit panels they use backlight tricks to help. There is not a 99% loss of quality - I'm stood looking at the difference.

I suspect we are talking about different things, you can see from that review that whilst it can produce the colours that form part of the more extreme corners of the Rec2020 colour space it still can't produce the additional colours inbetween

You will still have the issue of colour banding.

Not totally relevant, as no games are using Wide colour gamut, but certainly relevant to UHD discs.

 

[scitek]

Vudu is actually ditching DV in favor of HDR and I am more then happy with my Samsung KS8500. HDR looks downright amazing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...ch-dolby-vision-hdr-exclusivity/#7b518d0f51b6

That article doesn't say anything regarding them "ditching" DolbyVision, they're ADDING HDR10 support. DV will still be there.

It's stupid to even pretend it's some kind of format war between the two akin to HD DVD and Blu-ray when there's more than just those on the market. HLG is picking up steam, too.

 

[scitek]

Double post.

Vizio's CTO posted an update on AVSForum about upcoming firmwares that will address the Xbox One S, as well as what they're doing to address concerns of input lag with their P-series sets.

The team is working feverishly on a new firmware update that should be available in the next 2 weeks after regressions testing. Here are the targeted improvements:

- Big improvements on HDR10 picture quality
- Fix for "green tint" issue on Playstation 4 when in Deep Color
- Added 50Hz support for Xbox (just makes set up go smoother)
- Fixed more instances of split screen
- Fixed instances of stuttering or frame drops
- Sharpness setting fixed (doesn't revert)
- Clean Action scanning improvements for 60Hz
- 40IRE adjustment fixed in Calibrated Dark
- Lots of fixes in for ARC and dropped audio
- Wake on CAST improvements
- Fixes for freezing seen in Hulu app
- Improvements in OOBE and pairing during setup
- General stability and PQ improvements across the system

We are also testing this weekend an improvement to Bluetooth pairing for iPhone 7 models.

A couple of issues are still being worked on and will be in a later release (roughly 45-60 days).

The first is a patch for 4:4:4. I know this has been discussed a lot. The TV supports 4:4:4 now but certain signals show decimation. In these cases the TV is accepting and decoding the 4:4:4 signal correctly but it is passing through a portion of the video pipeline which is reducing the chroma. A fix is in the works so that when a 4:4:4 signal is detected this portion of the pipeline is bypassed and the true 4:4:4 will make it to screen. This is a longer fix because it required a rework of the video pipeline.

The second is 4:2:0 HDR10 which is manifesting itself on the Xbox. We were surprised that the Xbox would use the lower quality chroma output and at 60fps (as you know other sources chose better output formats). For instance, when you stream Netflix app the Xbox is actually converting 24p to 60p and outpouring it in 4:2:0. A rework to our HDR10 video pipeline is under way to handle this one format much better. The code is already working - saw it last week and it looks great. The code is being integrated into our main branch and will then go through regression testing before release. As part of this work we are separating the HDR10 PQ settings from DolbyVision - so when this code is released you will have 3 sub parts of each major PQ mode (SDR, HDR10, and DV) which was another request from several posters here on AVS.

As part of this release that includes the 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 HDR10 changes... we are working on further improvements to DolbyVision, set up experience, on screen menus, couple of remaining ACR updates and other general improvements.

I'll let you know how testing goes this week and when the release is live. Thanks for your patience.

Matt

Lots of questions on lag time... thought I would post some comments.

On our P and M Series products. The main SOC has about a 2 frame delay for processing which on a 60fps input is about 30ms. Our PQ/MEMC engine is a little less than one frame which is about 15ms. Our current HDR code is adding about 15ms. So at a very high level:

- HDMI 1-4 in SDR = 45ms
- HDMI 5 in SDR = 15ms
- HDMI 1-4 in HDR = 60ms

In my previous post I mentioned that we are reworking our HDR10 pipeline to support 4:2:0 better for Xbox. As part of that rework we are attempting to pull down the HDR10 lag to near 0ms. That means we would end up with the following:

- HDMI 1-4 in SDR = 45ms
- HDMI 5 in SDR = 15ms
- HDMI 1-4 in HDR10 = 45ms
- HDMI 1-4 in DolbyVision = 60ms

A couple of notes:

First, frame rate has a lot to do with lag. The above are calculated using 60fps. But 30fps would be slower and 120fps would be faster.

Second, backlight at 100% will produce the fastest times. Reducing the backlight will increase perceived lag because we take advantage of the lower brightness to reduce image blur by flashing the backlight after the liquid crystal in the physical glass has settled. Basically as you decrease the backlight you can slightly improve motion blur but will slightly increase lag (by as much as 10ms).

Third, we really care about gaming scenarios... hopefully as you can tell from our super fast HDMI 5 port, our support of 120fps, etc. We will continue to look to optimize lag, increase support for fast gaming cards, and other features our future displays great for gaming.

Matt

Basically, these sets aren't the ones to get for gaming. If a game is 60fps, you'll be playing with 45ms of input lag. 30fps - which obviously most games are, will get the ~60ms you've read about already.

 

[BarringGaffner]

4K, high quality textures and HDR is the next step. The impact is lessened if you use lower quality textures (imo)

From looking at the PS4 pro vs 4K PC comparisons the texture quality on the PS4 pro are medium level(?), due to only have 8GB ram (shared with OS)

I've been playing NBA2k17 and the low quality textures and vids really distracting from the experience.

So far I've not been impressed with 1080p HDR (low/medium textures)

I'll test Forza Horizon 3 tonight!

I meant 4k and HDR are not part of the same thing, they are just being promoted at the same time. One is more range, the other is more resolution.

 

[iTehDroiD]

Not totally relevant, as no games are using Wide colour gamut, but certainly relevant to UHD discs.

I guess you are referring to current Xbox One S titles (NBK16 and Forza)? Future titles especially PS4 Pro titles better support a wider color gamut and 10bit colors.

Does Xbox One S support 10Bit or a wider color gamut at all? If not whats the point of having HDR?

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Double post.

Vizio's CTO posted an update on AVSForum about upcoming firmwares that will address the Xbox One S, as well as what they're doing to address concerns of input lag with their P-series sets.





Basically, these sets aren't the ones to get for gaming. If a game is 60fps, you'll be playing with 45ms of input lag. 30fps - which obviously most games are, will get the ~60ms you've read about already.

That's great to hear. At least they're working on optimization.

 

[Hawk269]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but is the HDR toggleable on an HDR set? I have a Sony XBR55X850D, and definitely want to try it out with HDR, but if the input lag sucks then I want it off.

Not really. Some sets, once it received the HDR signal it will switch to HDR mode. On some sets, you can change the picture mode, but the source, in this case the Xbox One S will be sending the HDR signal regardless, which means on a non-hdr mode, colors will be blown out. The best way to have the HDR mode not be engaged is to go to the UI setting in the Xbox One S and turn off the HDR ability. Only down side to this, is that you will have re-engage that option if you want to do HDR again.

 

[ganaconda]

Double post.

Vizio's CTO posted an update on AVSForum about upcoming firmwares that will address the Xbox One S, as well as what they're doing to address concerns of input lag with their P-series sets.





Basically, these sets aren't the ones to get for gaming. If a game is 60fps, you'll be playing with 45ms of input lag. 30fps - which obviously most games are, will get the ~60ms you've read about already.

Any idea of the part about Xbox One S converting to 60 FPS and outputting 4:2;0 is across the board?

According to their support document below, for 4K 24 FPS content, it should output 4:4:4.

Sounds like it could be a bug somewhere, either at the OS level or specifically with the Netflix app.

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/console/4k-on-xbox-one-s-technical-requirements

 

[Impulsor]

Ok, so fiddling around with my settings I got to a point where HDR is undoubtely looking way better now with Forza Horizon 3.

I had to turn up dynamic cotnrast to max, turn up backlight to max, up the contrast a bit, activate smart led contrast backlight or however it is called.

Now it does look absolutely stunning.

So yeah, no tthe games problem but rather my own.

 

[Syrus]

Im pretty sure dynamic contrast does not need to be used, itd post processing.

Smart LED needs to be high , not DC

 

[SprachBrooks]

Is this the first game to support HDR on the Xbox One S?

 

[Vuze]

Is this the first game to support HDR on the Xbox One S?

I think NBA got a patch before. But yeah, the first one to be shipped with HDR support afaik.

 

[Head.spawn]

Someone gift me the game so i can try it out. =)

Did the demo get an HDR patch?

 

[SprachBrooks]

I think NBA got a patch before. But yeah, the first one to be shipped with HDR support afaik.

Ah, thank you for the information, friend.

 

[GrayFoxBH]

I do not. I have trips today but I can DM, or return here with the settings. I discussed this in the other thread that I had to fiddle a TON. That's just HDR for now.

And ya the HDR versus 720p -1080p thing. So though the blind polls show that most considered 4k +HDR to be requisite and the change to 4k alone isn't near as impact. I always know folks who say that they don't notice or care much about 720p-1080p? either or can barely notice.

Depending on set, game title, internal settings, and tv settings, there will be people where HDR just doesn't stoke them out. Exactly like those playing at 720p who doesn't really care.

HDR is more easily instantly noticed in 2 ways. Side by Side or after some time playing it and then seeing a none HDR screen. Sort of like how 720p is something you get accustomed to but then you see 1080p

A lot of people are saying that side by side the difference is more visible, but I guess it just shows that HDR is not that huge thing as people or marketing says, because if it really was, people would be amazed instantly, and would not need side by side comparisons to really appreciate it.

 

[Lucifon]

A lot of people are saying that side by side the difference is more visible, but I guess it just shows that HDR is not that huge thing as people or marketing says, because if it really was, people would be amazed instantly, and would not need side by side comparisons to really appreciate it.

It's not, at least not with Forza. I can't comment for UHD films but it's certainly not a 'holy shit' moment unless you've played the game without it for hours and hours (and hours).

 

[Vuze]

A lot of people are saying that side by side the difference is more visible, but I guess it just shows that HDR is not that huge thing as people or marketing says, because if it really was, people would be amazed instantly, and would not need side by side comparisons to really appreciate it.

As with all technology there is poor, decent and great implementation. All I can say is that the HDR footage I've seen so far in showcase demos and to an extent Netflix content (I thought the Chef's Table France episodes look especially good) was quite amazing to watch.
Will see how Forza holds up later today.

 

[JohngPR]

A lot of people are saying that side by side the difference is more visible, but I guess it just shows that HDR is not that huge thing as people or marketing says, because if it really was, people would be amazed instantly, and would not need side by side comparisons to really appreciate it.

The only HDR that has been available up to this point has been movies and TV, which do have an instant wow effect. To completely disregard it because of the way one game implements it at launch is a bit presumptuous.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Ended up picking up the LG 65UH5500 over the weekend. Checks the boxes for everything on the XB1S except for 4K at 50Hz. Picture quality, for us at least, was a huge jump from the TCL 55" 4K I bought at Costco awhile back. Gears 4 will probably be the first HDR game I play on it unless I get a good deal on FH3 over the next week or so, but fired up The Martian 4K UHD and watched it, looked amazing. Definitely a good buy for what I wanted for $880, a bigger TV plus 4K and HDR.