ScriptedReality
Member
Am I really seeing people telling black people they can't be offended by Barret and using the black friend trope? Good god Gaf.
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Will Final Fantasy VII's Re-introduction (Remake) Be Praised For Diversity)?
- Thread starter SOLDIER
- Start date
Was it though? Their relationship was pretty much true, unless I'm forgetting something.
All of their childhood memories were true, and they already kind of liked each other, especially Cloud.
Tifa fucked up shunning and lying to Cloud that he was wrong about his Nibel memories as Soldier, but to be fair she was also confused about what was happening with him, because Cloud had true memories about those events even though he supposedly wasn't there for Tifa (the truth being that he was actually there, but hidding behind a regular troop mask).
Her biggest mistake is avoiding trying to talk to Cloud about it, something that I think she acknowledges in that "memory recovement or whatever the fuck that was "scene.
I would argue that was a little dumb plot point though, even if necessary for the story.
Tifa fucked up shunning and lying to Cloud that he was wrong about his Nibel memories as Soldier, but to be fair she was also confused about what was happening with him, because Cloud had true memories about those events even though he supposedly wasn't there for Tifa (the truth being that he was actually there, but hidding behind a regular troop mask).
Her biggest mistake is avoiding trying to talk to Cloud about it, something that I think she acknowledges in that "memory recovement or whatever the fuck that was "scene.
I would argue that was a little dumb plot point though, even if necessary for the story.
QuantumZebra
Member
Oh come on
This:
Is a pretty damn tame outfit for a bartender who also beats people's asses by night
Compared to this:
For a fucking mechanic
QuantumZebra
Member
Didn't Nomura say they were keeping that?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yep. To his credit it's been a long while since i've seen that excuse used on gaming side unironically.
Probably because there are a lot of valid reasons why it should be criticized for the representation present in the game. But no no it's just people looking to complain right?
I mean, minorities should totes just accept a terribly stereotypical representation of the most prominent black character and women should just accept waifu tropes. /s
To be fair I don't see Tifa's outfit as tame for a bartender, neither I think it's an outfit for that tbh.
But yeah Cindy is waaaay worse. Can't be compared.
Wireframe
Member
I think he said the cross dressing is still in but I can see a redesigned wall market in general tbh.
ViolentP
Member
Exaggerate much? Fact is, if everything you deemed "valid" were fixed, you would still have a metric of users unhappy with the change. It's two sides pulling at the same rope. Unless of course you think what you deem valid to be the correct action and feel confident speaking for the entire userbase. Damn, exaggeration is easy! I see why you're a fan.
A group of four men and three women. Five white, one black, one Asian. A couple are in their 30s, one is 16, and the rest are in their 20s.
Truth is, tell me that this is describing the main group in a JRPG, and I'm intrigued. It could be improved in a number of ways, but that's a solidly diverse cast of characters.
Progressive? Eh, not really. Relative to most JRPGs, yes; for the time it was released, possibly; generally speaking for today, the demographics of the cast is fine, but doesn't make much of a statement at all.
Truth is, tell me that this is describing the main group in a JRPG, and I'm intrigued. It could be improved in a number of ways, but that's a solidly diverse cast of characters.
Progressive? Eh, not really. Relative to most JRPGs, yes; for the time it was released, possibly; generally speaking for today, the demographics of the cast is fine, but doesn't make much of a statement at all.
Just because lots of people are okay with the objectification and sexualization of women and stereotypical tropes of minority doesn't make it valid, okay, or acceptable.
ViolentP
Member
Never once did I say they were valid, okay, or acceptable. Only that the changes will not be praised by all, it will simply be a shift of who holds the frustration. Pretty much my opinion on what OP was asking.
You guys get way too defensive about this shit.
If you're in need of a refresher:
-As children, Cloud was infatuated with Tifa, but she was either unaware or disinterested
-Tifa's mother dies. Distraught, she tries to climb a mountain that has some folktale associated with it. She falls, Cloud tries to rescue her (and fails)
-Knowing what he did, Tifa meets up with Cloud during the well, where he vows to join Shinra and become a SOLDIER. Tifa then gets him to make the promise to come save her one day
-Tifa admits that this was done as a partial goof, but overtime she starts to develop feelings for him, checking the paper to see if his name showed up, inquiring about him when SOLDIER visits Nibelheim (and he happens to be there), etc
-Years later after the Nibelheim incident, Tifa meets Cloud again. Confused by his contradicting memories, she sets him up to join AVALANCHE in order to keep an eye on him
-Learning about the incident as Cloud remembers it, Tifa determines that she has to keep her side of the story a secret while trying to figure out what's going with Cloud
-Once they both fall in the Lifestream, they finally fill the pieces together, and it's here where Tifa learns about Cloud's feelings for her (and he also learns of hers)
-During the night before the final battle, they try to reconcile everything that's happened, but are held back by their own personal failings to express how they feel. This is where Tifa suggests that they could convey their feelings without words (fade to black)
In essence, their relationship was one that was building up throughout the course of the story, and continued to develop even afterwards. It's all about codependency, how they help each other up and serve as each other's strength. It's the core of their relationship and one that I hope carries over (and also expanded upon) in the Remake.
Probably because "this shit" is a serious issue for people who care about how minorities and women are portrayed in media and entertainment.
I honestly don't give a shit if somebody gets frustrated that Barret doesn't talk like he's straight off the cotton fields in a slave narrative or that Tifa wears something that isn't going to flash her panties every time she moves. That frustration is nowhere near equivalent to the frustration I feel that yet another black character is shown as a shucking and jiving negro.
Lights and Waves
Member
THIS.
PaulBizkit
Member
OP, what a circus just for one black character (btw yuffie is asian; you should take that into account, since black people are not the only minority in town... like latinos).
Barret is a comic relief character based on Mr. T, and that's it. He's avalanche's leader but after Midgar, that role is pushed to the back. His subplot with his daughter is amazing, though.
Barret is a comic relief character based on Mr. T, and that's it. He's avalanche's leader but after Midgar, that role is pushed to the back. His subplot with his daughter is amazing, though.
ViolentP
Member
There is nothing wrong for fighting for what you believe in. But when someone comes hot out the gate defending something that isn't even being argued, they are having the opposite effect than intending. I don't have a horse in this race personally, but damn, people need to learn to communicate their concerns and wishes in a much less aggressive manner.
Point is, he's really not. It was changed for the NA localization but it was never the intention of the developers.
I think it's fair that Barret in remake is more like the original/non english versions that whatever they fabricated for the NA version.
Something about bashing
asschecks...
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I'm still surprised this isn't a joke thread.
Somebody responded to me with the black friends trope in this very thread, fam. lol.
No Mukki no buy!
ViolentP
Member
I get it. It's a ridiculous argument. But it shouldn't dictate how we respond or act. At least, that's how I see it. Firstly, some are just trying to get a rise. What's the point in arguing that? Secondly, when someone is coming out with an ignorant argument, I treat it as someone showing their hand and I consider myself lucky to know who isn't worth the discussion prior to wasting my time on them.
That said, I believe there is an effective way of sharing one's belief. Getting upset about something before one understands what they are getting upset at is a bad way of doing it. And once again, these are just my beliefs. Take them as you wish.
I was under the impression the concept of them being childhood friends was a fabrication and they only had a few genuine interactions in thier childhood. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I was fairly certain that was the case or at the very least how I interpreted what the game spit out at me.
You can argue that's a dumb plot point and I'll guess you have a point. The majority of thier relationship was her knowing there was something severely wrong with him and enabling it so I never liked her character. Her design probably influenced that too even as a teenager I thought it was tacky as hell.
It isn't already? Most people just diss the thread premises outright.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, you're reading way more emotion than is there. I'm not getting upset about FF7, hahahaha.
And I'm not going to make any assumptions here, but as far as I go, in my life, ignorant assumptions have an impact on my day to day, and I'm not in a position to ignore them.
ViolentP
Member
Oh, this doesn't regard anything you've said. I'm having the discussion with you because it seems you don't fly off the handle before comprehending what you've just read. The reason this is even a discussion was due to a few coming to the blind defense of something I wasn't even arguing.
how do you activate this scene? i've never seen it... or i don't remember it, but i wouldn't forget sth that important.
User123456
Member
I'm not going to "try", that's legitimately what makes Barret Barret to me. I don't think I should have to apologize for feeling that way, that's how I grew to know Barret back in the day and he won't feel like the Barret I knew if he lacks his personality, even if he keeps the character development. Whether or not this is the "wrong" version of Barret makes no difference to my memories of playing the original game.
No you're definitely right, they were not friends.
I never thought any less of Barret because of the way he talked/acted, but I guess I can see why some would find it offensive. I don't see any problem with him being a bit more serious, but I'd like him to keep some of his boisterousness.
What I'm wondering about is whether Cait Sith will have that ridiculous Scottish accent... lol
What I'm wondering about is whether Cait Sith will have that ridiculous Scottish accent... lol
I'm pretty sure you have to have enough affection points with her to see it.
Cloud wasn't the only one that suffered after Nibelheim and considering everything Tifa went through, I think she had valid reasons for keeping quiet. Her hometown was burnt down to the ground by a man who was supposed to be a national hero who then proceeded to murder her father and almost killed her. Then she got dumped in Midgar and to survive alone before joining AVALANCHE. Five years later, she finds Cloud who not only claims to work for the company she hates but also claims he was there in Nibelheim. If I remember correctly, she was also knocked out the entire time Zangan traveled to Midgar with her so she was probably questioning her own memories and was scared as well.
Also ffs SE we better get a flashback of how Tifa and Barret met 
hes only a comic relief because of the awful english translation though, other than that hes the party member that doesnt take shit from nobody and angry with "the man", wich in the context of his backstory and everything that happens, he has every right to be
a point to make here is, what she finds out, is clouds past feelings and how they never actually knew each other that well
another thing here is that because of the affection stuff in FFVII clouds response to her are entirely different
thats right they never actually childhood friends or ever interacted in a meaningful way as children, the first was at the promise by the well, and the next time they talk with each other was when she found him at the train station after zacks death and when he created his new persona based on his own personality, his idealized self, and tifas memories and expectations from him
QuantumZebra
Member
Huh? I thought Tifa and Cloud were childhood friends. There is a flashback to them talking about what they wanted to do when they grew up. Cloud wanted to be a SOLDIER and didn't have the heart to reveal to her that he couldnt cut it and became a basic Shinra trooper.
But if that is wrong.. having played Crisis Core and having fuzzy memories of it... then weren't Zach and Tifa friends as children and Cloud somehow ended up with Zach's memories?
I'm pretty sure you have to have enough affection points with her to see it.
Cloud wasn't the only one that suffered after Nibelheim and considering everything Tifa went through, I think she had valid reasons for keeping quiet. Her hometown was burnt down to the ground by a man who was supposed to be a national hero who then proceeded to murder her father and almost killed her. Then she got dumped in Midgar and to survive alone before joining AVALANCHE. Five years later, she finds Cloud who not only claims to work for the company she hates but also claims he was there in Nibelheim. If I remember correctly, she was also knocked out the entire time Zangan traveled to Midgar with her so she was probably questioning her own memories and was scared as well.
Also ffs SE we better get a flashback of how Tifa and Barret met
It would go a long way to flesh out Tifa's character outside of her connection with Cloud by focusing on her hatred of Sephiroth (in many ways he's screwed her over more times than Cloud...please don't take that line out of context) along with how she met Barret and what must have been going through her head right after the Nibelheim ordeal.
She was also supposed to reunite with her teacher Zangan, who would teach her Final Heaven instead of finding a random letter in her piano that somehow imbued her with the skill.
They were. Tifa is actually the one narrating their childhood memories, not the fucked up mentally Cloud.
I mean they weren't close but they did know each other. They already knew eachother in the Mount Nibel incident. It's not like Cloud was a nobody for Tifa when they meet by the well.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
QuantumZebra
Member
Thank you.
This crappy recalling of FFVII by some people is tarnishing my memories of my beloved saga.
AFAIK Tifa and Cloud *were* friends as kids and Tifa uses that to try to bring Cloud back from the Lifestream.
Also in Crisis Core doesn't Cloud hide his face from her so she doesn't realize he never made it as a SOLDIER?
I didn't play CC but that does happens in the main game though, when they're reconstructing their Nibel memories.
no, cloud and tifa lived in the same town, but they were aquaintances at best, and the only time they talked with each other was at the time they made the promise, thats it
I didn't say he was a nobody, I said they weren't friends.
Then you need to replay the game because no one is tarnishing anything.
oh thx. the FADE TO BLACK part tickles my imagination
I totally agree! I love Tifa so much (and I've been side-eying some of these comments about her hard >.>) and it annoys me that she never got a personal side quest focused solely on her like the others did. I really do hope that she meets Zangan in the remake and he teaches her Final Heaven only if you can beat him one-one-one, it would be a nice student surpassing the master moment.
They weren't friends and the scene at the well was really the first time they ever really interacted. SE just loves to mention that they were childhood friend's even though it's not true.
They didn't though. Tifa doesn't remember that event after they fell because she was knocked out for a couple of days. To Tifa he was only that kid that got into fights a lot.
they were aquainted with each other at best, with cloud having a crush on her without actually knowing her in a meaningful way, she only took notice of cloud after the mountain incident, but again, cloud was still a loner and never interacted with tifa and her friends, leaving their only conversation as the promise scene
Tifa and Cloud were NOT childhood friends. In fact, the game makes it clear that Tifa didn't give two shits about Cloud until she discovers what he did for her back at the mountain, and shortly before Cloud left the town.
And Cloud hides his face in both the original game and Crisis Core.
I didn't say he was a nobody, I said they weren't friends.
Then you need to replay the game because no one is tarnishing anything.
Ahh, yes it's true. but still they childhood memories were all true, and that Cloud liked Tifa and she started to show interest to him with the well scene. That's what I said in my first post.
But it's true that there's some things about the childhood stuff about them that I didn't remember very well. Forgot about that scene in particular.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Who the fuck cares if some fans will be upset that a black man isn't reduced to using ebonics and women aren't reduced to waifu tropes because "muh childhood?" It's 2016 ffs. Games can, should, and HAVE done better. Including remakes.
Thank you.
Meant it my first post when I tried to do a summary about what happened with Cloud and Tifa.
But yeah that was wrong. Point and laugh at me
I will NEVER forgive Yuffie for stealing my Materia. Yes, 20 years later, I'm still salty about it. Having to trek through that area with no magic and getting owned by the random battles was balls. I was furious I couldn't forever send her to jail when I finally made it to the village and captured her. Sigh. Fucking Yuffie, man.
On topic, I do think that FFVII could be praised for its diversity. I can't think of many JRPGs, especially in 1997, that had casts as diverse. Barrett's dialog is pretty cringe-inducing nowadays, although he was clearly inspired by Mr. T. Tifa is one of my favorite FF ladies, period (and I love using her in Dissidia, she's a fucking melee beast), and Aeris was kind of a typical heroine, and if it wasn't for her tragic death, I'm not sure she'd be as remembered and beloved as she is. I'm wondering if because so much of what made FFVII unique and fresh back in 1997 will be glossed over because of two decades of JRPGs that emulated that formula? So many games afterwards were FFVII clones in terms of style, presentation, and even cast diversity. Even Square-Enix themselves have been guilty of FFVIIing their future RPGs.
I think it's going to be the updating of the script/story/themes that will bring the most attention to FFVII Remake, not necessarily the cast diversity, which, I think, has become pretty common place in JRPGs since 7 released nearly 20 years ago.
On topic, I do think that FFVII could be praised for its diversity. I can't think of many JRPGs, especially in 1997, that had casts as diverse. Barrett's dialog is pretty cringe-inducing nowadays, although he was clearly inspired by Mr. T. Tifa is one of my favorite FF ladies, period (and I love using her in Dissidia, she's a fucking melee beast), and Aeris was kind of a typical heroine, and if it wasn't for her tragic death, I'm not sure she'd be as remembered and beloved as she is. I'm wondering if because so much of what made FFVII unique and fresh back in 1997 will be glossed over because of two decades of JRPGs that emulated that formula? So many games afterwards were FFVII clones in terms of style, presentation, and even cast diversity. Even Square-Enix themselves have been guilty of FFVIIing their future RPGs.
I think it's going to be the updating of the script/story/themes that will bring the most attention to FFVII Remake, not necessarily the cast diversity, which, I think, has become pretty common place in JRPGs since 7 released nearly 20 years ago.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I see, I played it long ago, I probably didn't give proper attention to that dialogue.
I understand most people critics about all this stuff, but, without playing it again to see by myself how they develop the characters and situations I find it hard to point at many of these stuff and judge if they were sending a bad message or just telling a dark story.
About Tifa "stereotype", why do some people think the way the character looks means it is treated as objectification and sexualization? Is there anything really bad about how she was developed? (legit question, I played many years ago) Or is it just based on how she looks?
Cause I see nothing wrong about showing a woman dressing a mini-skirt as long as she was a well developed character, respected and as long as they do not portray every women at this same manner. And FFVII has 3 GREAT women characters that are much different from one another.
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