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[FunkyDealer]

X & Y

 

[Machina]

How the fuck do you tell

 

[Madao]

RBY

all they have going for them is nostalgia. even in the "simple good old days" mindset, GSC kick their ass up and down.

 

[GamerJM]

Disregarding nostalgia, Red and Blue are the worst for all of the reasons in the infamous "everything wrong with gen 1," image plus the fact that the other games are just better balanced and designed.

However, keeping nostalgia and completely-based-in-personal-experiences-and-feelings-bullshit-that-doesn't-really-make-for-a-good-argument-based opinions in mind, it's either FR/LG or ORAS to me. Both games felt like they just kind of neutered the atmosphere of the originals and I don't have good memories with either at all. FR/LG was just completely forgettable to me, and a year after I played it I'm sure I had stronger memories of my time with the originals than with it. Idk if I can even really put into words what I don't like about it as much. I guess without the social craze surrounding it, the impressiveness of it being an original Game Boy game, and the "magic," of it being the first in the series, gen 1/Kanto just isn't a very exciting or interesting region. Also it has by far the worst OST in the series. ORAS, on the other hand, felt like a reskinned version of X/Y to me or some shit. I don't know if I can even properly explain that either; the only example of it that I can think of is that they designed Mauville City to be a clusterfuck to navigate for some reason, like Lumiose was in X/Y. The story beats and writing also felt more like X/Y to me.

Overall it's probably FR/LG though. I specifically remember having a better time with XD which came out around the same time, which is weird considering how much worse those games usually are compared to mainline Pokemon.

 

[Qurupeke]

BW and RGB are pretty bad.

 

[Firemind]

You absolutely can call RBY objectively bad in a conversation about the battle system. Its problems go beyond cracks in the foundation (so much so that Gen II was pretty much the overhaul Gen with the splitting of the special stat, introducing 2 new types to balance how OP Psychic was).

RBY simply has a different ruleset compared to the later games. It doesn't really affect the single player experience as much as you think, since the battle system is still bound by rules. If you refer to how "broken" the game is in a competitive setting, there are loads of other issues that plagued the games that came after it.

There were many Pokemon before the physical/special split that had zero usable STAB moves coming off their high attack stat. Pokemon like Kingler, Flareon and Pinsir. Gyarados had to rely on HP Flying for a STAB physical move and we all know how "broken" breeding for Hidden Power was. Then came the centralization of Stealth Rock, sending many Fire and Bug Pokemon to niche tier. Then came the prevalence of weather-based teams where, if you didn't have a weather-based team, you were playing with handicap on, since weather back then was permanent. Then came Mega evolutions that juiced up many Pokemon near the 600 pseudo legendary tier, some of them paired with "broken" abilities that have zero answers.

It's all relative.

 

[Thud]

Diamond & Pearl.

The starter designs are very good, but it's such a slog as a game. Best thing is the rival, always bumping into others with a thud. So that's where my nickname comes from .

And ORAS was the first pokemon game where I kinda stopped playing after the main campaign. Although it was a busy period then, so it's not like the game was bad.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I can't understand people saying Gen 1 is the worst.

I can agree it's full of bugs, has some awful sprites and has some very strange decisions, but saying the game that started a huge revolution is the worst one doesn't fit with me.

I guess it probably is the worst game, but it's certainly the game I enjoyed the most, being blissfully unaware of the problems with balance and bugs. As a kid exploring the world of pokemon I never once thought "fucking OP psychic types!" or "bullshit 1/265 chance to miss." I just took them all as part of what I loved. Part of what brought a ton of people together to play games.

That's the game that made me, and a million people fall in love with the series. It's the best game in the series. No other has been able to recapture that, no matter how hard they try.

For my choice of the worst, it's got to be Ruby/Sapphire. I beat them, and didn't buy a pokemon game again until HG/SS. They soured me on the new pokemon games for a while.

Well at least for me, games are viewed under no nostalgia or some sort of defense that "it started it all" when being compared with each other. Otherwise the first entry will always have that unpenetrable defense. Like if you ask me which Power Rangers is the best, I wouldn't say MMPR is up there because "it started it" and "has nostalgia". It definitely isn't the worst though considering Saban brought up Megaforce and Disney made Operation Overdrive.

With that said RS is my second worst region, so I kinda agree with you on there.

 

[Earthpainting]

Ruby & Sapphire and Diamond & Pearl are the generations I quit on. The combination of new Pokémon, locations and general flow made me lose interest before reaching the elite four. I understand that these were significant entries in terms of features, but these new features sadly enough didn't speak to me very much. ORAS was a nice step up from RS, but it made me realise that I'll never like it no matter the amount of remakes they do of it.

I've skipped X & Y and Black and White 2, so it's not my place to judge them too much. The reason I skipped them though is mostly bad timing, but I doubt I'll ever pick any of the up during a gap in my release schedule.

 

[Morokh]

Gen 3 is the most forgettable for me.

Sun Moon is close second as far as the new Pokémon designs are concerned, but it trumps every other game in pretty much all other aspects.

 

[Nere]

For me Black and White. Awful designs, no post game, removed vs seeker for no reason, started the trend of the elite four to have the same power. The generation that killed my interest on Pokemon.

 

[Nottle]

I haven't touched gen 1 since the 90's. It's probably that since it's so old and broken and you could just play it's remake.

Honestly I'm not a fan of gen 3 or 4 but I like the remakes that came out those gens.

Gen 3 has at least some cool Pokémon designs even though I dislike the regions water logged design.

Nothing about gen 4 stands out other than the really important switch they made mechanically. I hate team galactic, I don't like the legendaries, I don't like the starters, I don't like the abundance of hms required to explore and I think the battles feel extra slow in that game.

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

X and Y put me to fucking sleep. I quit exactly when I got to some big city and I was forced to do some Pokemon runway fashion bullshit, since My only thought was "this is fucking Pokemon nowadays?!" Plus it was piss-easy.

How does Sun/Moon compare?

 

[Kurita]

RBY definitely. I actually didn't really enjoy playing it back in the day, GSC is where shit got real imo (though the level curve is definitely weird, I noticed that when I played the remake).

Gen 6 is forgettable too imo

Favorite game will forever be Platinum.

That's the game that made me, and a million people fall in love with the series. It's the best game in the series. No other has been able to recapture that, no matter how hard they try.

I don't know, even as a kid I didn't love Pokémon that much before Gen 2 which blew my mind so... Got the same feeling with Gen 4.
Gen 2, 4 and 5 are my favorites, they all left a huge impression on me, bigger than the first one.

 

[Snagret]

X and Y put me to fucking sleep. I quit exactly when I got to some big city and I was forced to do some Pokemon runway fashion bullshit, since My only thought was "this is fucking Pokemon nowadays?!" Plus it was piss-easy.

How does Sun/Moon compare?

For me, Sun/Moon is a breath of fresh air. The game is slightly bogged down by too many cutscenes (made much more noticeable by the fact that the next cutscene you'll get is marked on your map, and it gets really grating having it almost always be about a 20 second stroll ahead of you), there's a little too much hand holding in the beginning.

But the pokemon designs are consistently really good, the setting is light hearted and has its own distinct flavor from the rest of the series, they smartly got rid of gyms and replaced them with Trials, each one having different challenges and goals, and while still pretty easy it feels like it has the difficulty balance of any of the games to date assuming you turn off EXP share (which you should, and resist any urge to grind) and don't overabuse the z-moves. The game keeps pace with your level, rather than letting you slide 5-10 levels ahead and just streamroll everything in one shot like you would in the other games.

As someone who has felt burned out on Pokemon for the last several entries, this one has really revitalize my interest in the series.

 

[MANUELF]

RBY, they are the buggiest games you can imagine

 

[Aleh]

I played every single mainline game since Blue, and after playing Moon I have a very clear opinion about each entry.

Red, Blue & Yellow: 7/10
Good games at their time, fun to play and good Pokémon designs, the story was super simple but it had memorable characters. I don't like their overall feel though, I always found some places to be creepy even if they weren't meant to be. Their remakes put them on par with the 3rd generation on most aspects (FireRed & LeafGreen: 8/10).

Gold, Silver & Crystal: 9/10
THIS is where shit got real.
So many improvements and the feel of the game is amazing. Johto, while small, is much more lovely than Kanto and has a ton of cool places. Awesome Pokémon and the first Legendaries I really loved. Great characters, nice story.

Ruby & Sapphire: 8/10
Many technical improvements but I don't like its overall feel as much. I like Hoenn though, and the designs were nice as well. I don't have much to say here.

Emerald: 9/10
They took the good parts and made it better with additions like the Battle Frontier and a much more nicely developped story than RS.

Diamond & Pearl: 8/10
I love the feel of these games again after GS, but they weren't fleshed out enough at first to be as good as them. They had more things to do than most first games of a generation at least. Also I adore the pokémon designs here, they introduced many of my favorites and I don't dislike any in particular.

Platinum: 10/10
This is how you fix everything about a game. Sinnoh became much more interesting, the story had an awesome climax, the post-game was revised and expanded greatly, the engine was fixed and the regional pokédex was much better.

HeartGold & SoulSilver: 10/10
Absolutely amazing remake. More content, bigger regions, the story is more fleshed out, the graphics are cute as fuck, the sound effects are great... I could go on and on.

Black & White: 9/10
The first ones to have an actually good story and characters, decent amount of content and they ran pretty great, with also some graphical improvements despite some stylistic choices I don't particularly like. I have to say I am not a fan of most of the pokémon designs though, many of them felt off somehow or were straight up trash (I fucking hate Sawk and the other one I always forget the name of), but they also had their share of good ones.

Black 2 & White 2: 10/10
Much like Platinum, they expanded their base and the fact they were sequels was very interesting, even if the story of BW was still superior. Unova was much better, the things to do were a lot, and they added old pokémon back to the mix. None of the gen 5 games have the same feel of gen 2 or 4 to me though, but that's something personal and that I don't really know how to explain.

And here is the answer to the thread.

X & Y: 6/10
Eh. Where to start...
Awful story, only good part was when AZ tells you about the war but even that had a weird dialogue.
AWFUL characters. I swear Tierno makes me want to murder people. Diantha is meh, Team Flare is meh, gym leaders are meh, and I don't even remember any other character.
Kalos was bland and didn't get a third version fix, so rip.
The music was fine except for Battle themes... I don't think I like any of them, maybe just Xerneas and Yveltal's theme is decent I guess.
The 3D graphics sound good on paper, but then you see the horrible chibi models, the still blocky overwolrd, the dull colors and the boring setting (didn't do France justice at all). Goddamn Lumiose.
Worst post-game on par with RBY.
I like the pokémon designs at least!

OmegaRuby & AlphaSapphire: 8/10
Not bad, but for their time they could have been much better. The graphics were nicer than XY and they had cool stuff like the Delta episode, but they also glaringly miss the Battle Frontier or other nice things like the PokéBlocks minigame and they dumbed down the safari zone.

Sun & Moon: 10/10
The best pokémon games ever. I love the story (best one yet), I love the characters, I love the region, I love Lillie, I love the pokémon, I love the graphics, I love the concept of Ultra Beasts and the lore and traditions of Alola, I love Lillie, I love the island challenge twist and the increased difficulty. Good amount of things to do as well.


Wow lol sorry for the long post.

 

[Boss Doggie]

For me, Sun/Moon is a breath of fresh air. The game is slightly bogged down by too many cutscenes (made much more noticeable by the fact that the next cutscene you'll get is marked on your map, and it gets really grating having it almost always be about a 20 second stroll ahead of you), there's a little too much hand holding in the beginning.

But the pokemon designs are consistently really good, the setting is light hearted and has its own distinct flavor from the rest of the series, they smartly got rid of gyms and replaced them with Trials, each one having different challenges and goals, and while still pretty easy it feels like it has the difficulty balance of any of the games to date assuming you turn off EXP share (which you should, and resist any urge to grind) and don't overabuse the z-moves. The game keeps pace with your level, rather than letting you slide 5-10 levels ahead and just streamroll everything in one shot like you would in the other games.

As someone who has felt burned out on Pokemon for the last several entries, this one has really revitalize my interest in the series.

You forgot that despite being a lush region, the paths are really, really linear and railroady.

 

[ConceptX]

I'd say X&Y were the least memorable for me, with Gold & Silver being the most.

I couldn't really name any entry so far as "bad" though.

 

[psynergylover]

Black and White; the Pokémon were just terrible all around except for the starters and axes/dieno evolutions

 

[marcbret87]

I think considering the first gen the worst is overly harsh. In a way, it would be like considering Newton a rather bad physicist because a bit over 200 years later Einstein discovered a much better description of gravity. Or comparing Michael Jordan with George Mikan and saying the latter is total trash he would be a totally useless player in today's basketball.

Gen 1 had tonnes of problems, but it effectively created the template of what a Pokemon game is. At the time it was widely praised, and rightly so I would say. The next entries mainly had to focus on improving the formula, whereas Gen 1 had to invent it. Of course you also can't consider it the best.

Personally, I think X&Y are the worst. The graphical update is surely pretty cool, but the story and the characters are so simple and just so... uninspired. I came back to Pokemon three years ago by playing HeartGold, which I thoroughly enjoyed due to its great post-game and fairly measured challenge. X&Y had none of this. ORAS was also very easy, but at least it had a much more meaty post-game.

 

[Frost_Ace]

Diamond/Pearl are easily the worst. The fact the some new pokemon are locked behind the GBA slot thingy is fucking stupid, not to mention the weak regional pokedex. Platinum fixed pretty much everything though, thank God (especially the gym leader and E4 teams).

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think considering the first gen the worst is overly harsh. In a way, it would be like considering Newton a rather bad physicist because a bit over 200 years later Einstein discovered a much better description of gravity. Or comparing Michael Jordan with George Mikan and saying the latter is total trash he would be a totally useless player in today's basketball.

the basketball thing is a terrible analogy

and no, your inventor analogy implies RBY is outdated and obsolete, which is another objective factor

 

[ffvorax]

Diamond and Pearl & ORAS to me.

These games literally killed my interest in Pk.

I went back playing and enjoying the games with B/W.

 

[marcbret87]

the basketball thing is a terrible analogy

and no, your inventor analogy implies RBY is outdated and obsolete, which is another objective factor

That is plain wrong, Newtonian physics are in no way obsolete. After all it is what you learn in school and, unless you go on to study Physics at university, you are likely not to learn Special Relativity, much less General Relativity. Newtonian physics is just not a complete description, but it is fairly useful in the right context.

And I don't see why the basketball analogy is so bad, IMO comparing a game from 20 years ago and pointing out its now obvious flaws is the same as comparing players from totally different eras.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Gen 4 or 5

 

[Boss Doggie]

That is plain wrong, Newtonian physics are in no way obsolete. After all it is what you learn in school and, unless you go on to study Physics at university, you are likely not to learn Special Relativity, much less General Relativity. Newtonian physics is just not a complete description, but it is fairly useful in the right context.

And I don't see why the basketball analogy is so bad, IMO comparing a game from 20 years ago and pointing out its now obvious flaws is the same as comparing players from totally different eras.

So then the physics analogy is wrong then because many concept you see in gen 1 have become obsolete at this point.

The basketball analogy is bad because the comparison feels arbitrary. At worst you're going for a "could these two have a match with each other".

 

[magnetic]

I didn't grow up with Pokemon and only played BW, XY and ORAS, and I liked BW the most - I actually loved those odd, surreal Pokemon and the quick sprite based battles. Gave it a nice oldschool feeling with a modern pacing.

I never really liked the look of polygonal Pokemon. But then again, I also vastly prefer the static sprite enemies in Etrian Odyssey 1-3 to the polygonal ones in the later entries.

Now that I think about it, many of the BW Pokemon looked more like demonic abominations rather than cuddly animals, almost like something out of Shin Megami Tensei. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it so much.

XY and ORAS honestly felt way more generic to me, but again, I have no nostalgia for the series.

 

[Forkball]

Alright, I gotta step in here on all this RBY hate. RBY still stands up as one of the better Pokemon games, and one of the best GB games ever. This is not nostalgia talking, I replayed Yellow earlier this year on the VC and was constantly impressed by how well it held up. Yes wrap sucks. Yes I hate Zubat. Yes item management is a pain in the ass. Yes Psychic is crazy unbalanced. But Kanto is a very well-realized world with complex areas to explore, real secrets that the game doesn't shine a spotlight on, a diverse amount of Pokemon, excellent pacing, and is by far the LEAST LINEAR Pokemon title even today.

Show me a damn dungeon in BW and beyond anywhere as complex as this. This is a MID GAME DUNGEON.

There are over 30 trainers to fight, including your rival and a boss. You had to traverse this massive building while also solving puzzles. You had to sit, think, and backtrack if you wanted to get everything. You got a LAPRAS and a MASTER BALL for clearing this. Now that's a reward.

Other areas like Mt. Moon, Victory Road, Seafoam Islands etc. are also complex in their own way. In Seafoam, you had push blocks down several levels in order to disrupt the flow of water and surf so you can catch a legendary Pokemon. There's no puzzle even a tenth as interesting in Sun/Moon (a game I still like). RBY had real ass RPG dungeons. You got lost, you had to use a bunch of items, and when you got out you let out a desperate sigh and just prayed you could get to the Pokemon Center soon enough. YOU ENTERED ROCK TUNNEL A BOY AND LEFT A MAN.

And back to an aforementioned point: this game is the least linear. When you got the Celadon, you basically had a huge chunk of the map completely open to you. There were multiple ways to get to Fuschia City, and you can do Fuschia or Saffron first. Even if you solely followed the story, you are taken in unexpected directions, like having to go through Vermillion City lower on the map instead of the closest town.

Before someone posts that glitch sheet... ain't no one care about that. Yes the game has a ton of glitches, but unless you seek them, you will never encounter them. The game is not balanced, but it was the first game and I have no idea if Game Freak even considered the series becoming a competitive juggernaut. I mean Knights of the Round in FFVII wasn't balanced. Mewtwo is the Knights of the Round of Pokemon.

Obviously people love RBY and Kanto for nostalgia purposes, but there are some seriously ambitious design decisions in the original game that contributed to it being a success at the time and still enjoyable to this day.

 

[marcbret87]

So then the physics analogy is wrong then because many concept you see in gen 1 have become obsolete at this point.

The basketball analogy is bad because the comparison feels arbitrary. At worst you're going for a "could these two have a match with each other".

As far as I see, the template from Gen-1 has been followed quite tightly up to this latest Sun/Moon:

- Choice of three starters with two evolutions (Fire-Plant-Water)
- 8 tematic Gyms
- Rival
- Team Rocket or whatever they are called in each entry as bad guys
- Elite 4
- Legendary Pokemon
- Complete the Pokedex or Catch'em All is still effectively the ultimate aim
- Most of the types were already there ( as far as I know, the only additions from Gen. 1 are Steel-Dark-Fairy)
- Use of HM moves to explore the region

Sure, many things have been improved: Bug types were useless in Gen. 1 whereas Psychics had no weaknesses, there were no dragon type attacks and so on, but the structure of the game has remained largely unchanged for 20 years.

The basketball analogy is not arbitrary because I see some people evaluating a 1996 game which was the trend-setter at the time with 2016 eyes. This is simply not fair. I doubt anybody thought Pokemon was going to such a huge deal when it came out, so many things were not evaluated properly as the previous post says.

 

[Snagret]

You forgot that despite being a lush region, the paths are really, really linear and railroady.

Yeah, it's a shame. I'd love for them to rethink this with the next entry.

I still stand by Sun/Moon being great games. Not perfect, but better than Pokemon has been in a while.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

RBY simply has a different ruleset compared to the later games. It doesn't really affect the single player experience as much as you think, since the battle system is still bound by rules. If you refer to how "broken" the game is in a competitive setting, there are loads of other issues that plagued the games that came after it.

There were many Pokemon before the physical/special split that had zero usable STAB moves coming off their high attack stat. Pokemon like Kingler, Flareon and Pinsir. Gyarados had to rely on HP Flying for a STAB physical move and we all know how "broken" breeding for Hidden Power was. Then came the centralization of Stealth Rock, sending many Fire and Bug Pokemon to niche tier. Then came the prevalence of weather-based teams where, if you didn't have a weather-based team, you were playing with handicap on, since weather back then was permanent. Then came Mega evolutions that juiced up many Pokemon near the 600 pseudo legendary tier, some of them paired with "broken" abilities that have zero answers.

It's all relative.

Except it does have an effect on the single-player experience. You can't really choose certain types if you want coverage during your main game because Gen I balance being so wonky led to them having an ineffective movepool. For instance, good luck playing Bugs, Ghosts, or even Dragons because they lack STAB moves and require unorthodox moves just to gain some offense. Generally speaking, some of the Gen I mons with better types and offenses were also poorly balanced in terms of movepool (Charizard gets no Flying STAB and its only good move is Flamethrower and doesn't come until level 45). This is far different than your later examples where it specifically refers to metagame balance.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Man, there's a lot of really good arguments against RBY being the worst in here

but saying the game that started a huge revolution is the worst one doesn't fit with me

but I really don't think rby's legacy has anything at all to do with the question.

The basketball analogy is not arbitrary because I see some people evaluating a 1996 game which was the trend-setter at the time with 2016 eyes. This is simply not fair.

Yes. It is fair.

In another context it might not be 'fair' but it really seems like some of you want to change the context of this very thread to make it 'not fair' yourselves,.

(person asking a question) "Which iPhone gen is the worst?"

(me) "... I'd probably go with the first generation..."

(someone else who didn't even ask me the original question to begin with) - "Dude, what? That phone changed phones forever. It changed the world. You can't pick it. Think of the question more like, 'Which iPhone gen is the worst, accounting for legacy because that takes precedence over what your actual experience with the device today would be like, somehow'. Think of the question like that because I told you to, because there's no other reason to look at the question like that, because what I've changed the question into now is not what was originally asked of you."

 

[Kor of Memory]

I really don't get a lot of the RBY hate. It had some clunkyness to it, but it also had zero bloat.

The screens and menus all loaded instantly. The infamous "Bugs" listed only applies to some very specific moves and move combinations that they would go undiscovered the majority of players.

It gave us an incredibly large amount of iconic pokemon compared to every other generation.

It gave us an incredibly large amount of iconic NPCs.

It had the best pacing of any pokemon game. Both story and XP gain.

I mean, who cares that Ryhorn had the same call as Charizard? Big deal. Who cares that Bide didn't work? No one used that move anyway. What cares about Leech Seed and Toxic? Only 2 pokemon in the whole game could even have that combo.

I'm sorry, but I'll take a list of minor inconveniences over the horrible XP and pokemon distribution of Gen II any day.

 

[Earthpainting]

Man, there's a lot of really good arguments against RBY being the worst in here

but this is not one of them

rby's legacy has nothing to do with the question
rby's legacy has nothing to do with the question
rby's legacy has nothing to do with the question



Yes. It is fair.

In another context it might not be 'fair' but it really seems like some of you REALLY want to change the context of this thread to make it 'not fair' yourselves,.

*person asking me a question* "Which iPhone gen is the worst?"

*me* "... I'd probably go with the first generation, the tech is dated and it's not well supported and..."

*someone else who didn't even ask me the original question to begin with* "Dude what the fuck? That phone changed phones FOREVER. It changed the WORLD. you can't pick it lolol. Think of the question more like, 'Which iPhone gen is the worst, accounting for legacy because that takes precedence over what your actual experience with the device would be like somehow'. Think of the question like that literally only because I say so."

I don't think sports performances or pieces of technology are ever going to be a very apt analogy. You're best sticking to other pieces of entertainment or art. I think we'd be closer to have something like Citizen Kane being contrasted with something like Thor: The Dark World. One is a significant movie for its time, but people still think its merits still hold strong in spite of its problems and dated technology. The other is a more modern film with more modern features, made with more modern technology. It does a lot of things "better" by default just because it gets to benefit from decades of refinements in film-making and advancements in technology. Which you'd prefer or think is better or worse is still pretty subjective however.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I really don't get a lot of the RBY hate. It had some clunkyness to it, but it also had zero bloat.

The screens and menus all loaded instantly. The infamous "Bugs" listed only applies to some very specific moves and move combinations that they would go undiscovered the majority of players.

It gave us an incredibly large amount of iconic pokemon compared to every other generation.

It gave us an incredibly large amount of iconic NPCs.

It had the best pacing of any pokemon game. Both story and XP gain.

I mean, who cares that Ryhorn had the same call as Charizard? Big deal. Who cares that Bide didn't work? No one used that move anyway. What cares about Leech Seed and Toxic? Only 2 pokemon in the whole game could even have that combo.

I'm sorry, but I'll take a list of minor inconveniences over the horrible XP and pokemon distribution of Gen II any day.

Those really aren't the only issues with gen 1 tbh. Stuff like the awful item and box management were also very real

 

[Kor of Memory]

Except it does have an effect on the single-player experience. You can't really choose certain types if you want coverage during your main game because Gen I balance being so wonky led to them having an ineffective movepool. For instance, good luck playing Bugs, Ghosts, or even Dragons because they lack STAB moves and require unorthodox moves just to gain some offense. Generally speaking, some of the Gen I mons with better types and offenses were also poorly balanced in terms of movepool (Charizard gets no Flying STAB and its only good move is Flamethrower and doesn't come until level 45). This is far different than your later examples where it specifically refers to metagame balance.

What kills me here, is that Gen II did almost nothing to fix a lot of this...

You wanted a good Ghost pokemon? Tough shit. Here is Misdreavus... That's all you get.

You wanted a good Dragon pokemon? Tough shit. Here is Kingdra... That's all you get.

Those really aren't the only issues with gen 1 tbh. Stuff like the awful item and box management were also very real

Yes. Complaining about the Box/Item management is a valid point. I'm saying those list of various context specific bugs are hardly worth considering when comparing Gen I to everything else.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I don't think sports performances or pieces of technology are never going to be a very apt analogy. You're best sticking to other pieces of entertainment or art. I think we'd be closer to have something like Citizen Kane being contrasted with something like Thor: The Dark World. One is a significant movie for its time, but people still think its merits still hold strong in spite of its problems and dated technology. The other is a more modern film with more modern features, made with more modern technology. It does a lot of things "better" by default just because it gets to benefit from decades of refinements in film-making and advancements in technology. Which you'd prefer or think is better or worse is still pretty subjective however.

Tru. I'm just saying that noting something's legacy isn't a valid defense against criticism, especially not when the context behind the criticism is just "which one isn't as good as the others"

 

[Akuun]

Was diamond/pearl the ones where there were these huge pauses between anything happening in every single battle? If so, that one.

Choose a move to do
paaauuusseeee
your pokemon did a move!
paaaaaussseeee
move animation and sound
paussssseeee
enemy health bar moves down VERY SLOWLY
paaaussseeeee
effective/not effective message
paaausssseeee
fight menu comes back up

Fuck that.

It put me to sleep by the third or fourth battle in the game because of those pauses.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Was diamond/pearl the ones where there were these huge pauses between anything happening in every single battle? If so, that one.

Choose a move to do
paaauuusseeee
your pokemon did a move!
paaaaaussseeee
move animation and sound
paussssseeee
enemy health bar moves down VERY SLOWLY
paaaussseeeee
effective/not effective message
paaausssseeee
fight menu comes back up

Fuck that.

It put me to sleep by the third or fourth battle in the game because of those pauses.

I think so. I seem to recall that being the only pokemon game where I turned off "effects" just so the battles would go by faster.

 

[DylanEno]

Was diamond/pearl the ones where there were these huge pauses between anything happening in every single battle? If so, that one.

Choose a move to do
paaauuusseeee
your pokemon did a move!
paaaaaussseeee
move animation and sound
paussssseeee
enemy health bar moves down VERY SLOWLY
paaaussseeeee
effective/not effective message
paaausssseeee
fight menu comes back up

Fuck that.

It put me to sleep by the third or fourth battle in the game because of those pauses.

Yeah it was literally unplayable. I've loved every Pokémon game since RB and couldn't find it in me to go more than 3 or 4 gyms. Complete and utter waste of time.

 

[Producer]

I'd argue it has moments like better distribution of pokemon and honestly, a really great meta (ORAS meta was garbage), but yeah

I'm also more lenient to it because it was a first jump in a full 3D game



EV training, not just for getting EVs but deleting them, getting HAs is much easier, better touchscreen UI (much better than ORAS because the basic touchscreen UI is pretty much the default), "infinite loop" affection raising, easier leveling to 100 that doesn't require you to learn certain friend bases

some stuff in later games that started in XY are trading in boxes for in-game trades, fossil party members, freeform movement, etc.

I looked into some gameplay vids and i really like having the online guests/friends screen integrated into the touchscreen at all times, as well as the menu shortcuts. Shame that didnt make it into Sun/Moon

 

[MegaManTrigger]

What kills me here, is that Gen II did almost nothing to fix a lot of this...

You wanted a good Ghost pokemon? Tough shit. Here is Misdreavus... That's all you get.

You wanted a good Dragon pokemon? Tough shit. Here is Kingdra... That's all you get.

In fairness, they took a couple of steps forward when they gave the Dratini line Outrage in Gen II, which meant that it no longer had to rely on Dragon Rage (lol). What really sucked though is that both types still got screwed over because of the inherent flaw of phys/spec being based on types instead of stats. Still mindblowing how it took until Gen IV to fix that problem.

 

[meanspartan]

Have you construed to mean that I don't have an opinion of my own, and that my opinion is in fact sourced from the opinions of other people? Because I'm not sure why you would have mentioned that to begin with, other than to dismiss away the notion that Red/Blue have issues with their mechanics that most of the other games simply do not, by making it seem as though my opinion has no merit. I posted that image to support my opinion, because it demonstrates that forebearers though they are, Red and Blue are far from perfect. I've felt that way about these games long before I ever saw that image. Hell, I've personally found it hard to return to R/S/E/FL/LG since the DS games, much less previous titles, because of the physical/special split alone.



See, here's where you and others are getting me wrong, I think.

I never said Red and Blue was a bad game. Read what I posted on Mario last page.

I shouldn't have to point out that I never once called Red and Blue bad games. But beyond that, lets make one thing clear...


...you are the one who's trying to reframe the question, and it's clear as day. The OP is there for everyone to read. It asks, "Which mainline Pokemon game would you say was the worst?".

The limiters that you're imposing on this discussion are irrelevant. I was not asked which Pokemon game was the best for its respective era. I was not asked to consider this. That was NOT the question posed by the OP. Mind you, I COULD take that into consideration, but I don't, because I was asked which Pokemon game I see as being the worst, and right now, the two I'd pick are the two that are the most dated and least engaging to me. That's not some damning condemnation of the games. I loved Pokemon Red and Blue and I respect them today. That's just how I see the games relative to their predecessors right now. It's that simple.

You're trying to twist the discussion by framing it in such a way that we HAVE to consider these games lasting legacies, as though they're even a little relevant to what my experience playing those games today would be like. In such a way that invalidates R/B from being choices entirely. Again, convenient.



The question isn't "Which Pokemon mainline entry is the worst in your opinion - factoring in the lasting legacy and impact of Red and Blue, which laid the groundwork for the rest of the series and ushered in an era of Gameboy dominance, and therefore somehow take precedence over the level of actual enjoyment you'd get out of playing those games today" either

you really got a problem with people criticizing R/B/G huh?

Let's look at what OP wrote:



I see nothing about "compared to games in their relative eras", just which is the worst from that list.

And by all means, for most people here, R/B/Y and X/Y are fighting each other for the first place. Is it unfair that R/B/Y have to compare themselves to entries 20 years younger than them? Yes. But then again, there's nothing said about please keep in mind that some games are older than others.

Diamond and Pearl are 10 years old, by your argumentation comparing those to newer entries would be unfair too, since there's up to an entire decade between those, and yet you don't complain about this.

RBY laid the foundation for the series yes, but thats not an argument for it. When someone asks in 2016 what the worst game in the series is, and most answer "the one that released in 1996", you should have a better argument than "but it was a ood game in 1996!". No shit, it was, but that's not what's being asked.

You know what guys, fair enough, agree to disagree I suppose.

It isn't that I don't like people criticizing Gen 1, I myself agree it is certainly too old a game for new players to begin with at this point.

I just can't wrap my head around comparing games in different decades against anything other than their own era, and I still believe when asked "which game is best/worst" that the only fair way to compare is historical context. To me, it's a fundamentally different question than "which should I play today", and apparently to you guys it isn't, which is totally fine.

But to me, that makes the discussion pointless in any series that hasn't stagnated or gone backwards (Sonic comes to mind...outside of maybe Generations older Sonic games are still straight up better than newer ones), because the oldest game will always be "the worst".

 

[Tunavi]

Pokemon has been lame for years but X and y were fucking garbage.

 

[meanspartan]

Alright, I gotta step in here on all this RBY hate. RBY still stands up as one of the better Pokemon games, and one of the best GB games ever. This is not nostalgia talking, I replayed Yellow earlier this year on the VC and was constantly impressed by how well it held up. Yes wrap sucks. Yes I hate Zubat. Yes item management is a pain in the ass. Yes Psychic is crazy unbalanced. But Kanto is a very well-realized world with complex areas to explore, real secrets that the game doesn't shine a spotlight on, a diverse amount of Pokemon, excellent pacing, and is by far the LEAST LINEAR Pokemon title even today.

Show me a damn dungeon in BW and beyond anywhere as complex as this. This is a MID GAME DUNGEON.
...

There are over 30 trainers to fight, including your rival and a boss. You had to traverse this massive building while also solving puzzles. You had to sit, think, and backtrack if you wanted to get everything. You got a LAPRAS and a MASTER BALL for clearing this. Now that's a reward.

Other areas like Mt. Moon, Victory Road, Seafoam Islands etc. are also complex in their own way. In Seafoam, you had push blocks down several levels in order to disrupt the flow of water and surf so you can catch a legendary Pokemon. There's no puzzle even a tenth as interesting in Sun/Moon (a game I still like). RBY had real ass RPG dungeons. You got lost, you had to use a bunch of items, and when you got out you let out a desperate sigh and just prayed you could get to the Pokemon Center soon enough. YOU ENTERED ROCK TUNNEL A BOY AND LEFT A MAN.

And back to an aforementioned point: this game is the least linear. When you got the Celadon, you basically had a huge chunk of the map completely open to you. There were multiple ways to get to Fuschia City, and you can do Fuschia or Saffron first. Even if you solely followed the story, you are taken in unexpected directions, like having to go through Vermillion City lower on the map instead of the closest town.

Before someone posts that glitch sheet... ain't no one care about that. Yes the game has a ton of glitches, but unless you seek them, you will never encounter them. The game is not balanced, but it was the first game and I have no idea if Game Freak even considered the series becoming a competitive juggernaut. I mean Knights of the Round in FFVII wasn't balanced. Mewtwo is the Knights of the Round of Pokemon.

Obviously people love RBY and Kanto for nostalgia purposes, but there are some seriously ambitious design decisions in the original game that contributed to it being a success at the time and still enjoyable to this day.

So fucking true, the games dungeons might still be the best in the series, had forgotten about this.

 

[RiggyRob]

The fact there's no consensus is a testament to the quality of the series.

Personally I'd break it down to the ones with performance issues and/or bugs, which means Diamond/Pearl for the slow-ass battles or X/Y for the save bug (seriously, can you imagine if Red and Blue had had a save bug? The series would be dead in the water).

 

[archreaper93]

Red/Blue/Yellow. Each gen after that introduced mechanics that improve the game immensely.

Gen 2 split the Special stat into Sp. Atk and Sp. Def, and nerfed the incredibly overpowered Psychic type.

Gen 3 made the PC incredibly streamlined and easy to use (no more having to save every time you change boxes!).

Gen 4 introduced the physical-special split, meaning each type could have both physical and special moves.

Gen 5 gave us unlimited TM usage.

Gen 6 introduced megas.

 

[Weebos]

Show me a damn dungeon in BW and beyond anywhere as complex as this. This is a MID GAME DUNGEON.

The ridiculous dungeons in RBY are just as easily a strike against them. I hate all of them, I play DRPGs.

 

[Hydrus]

Alright, I gotta step in here on all this RBY hate. RBY still stands up as one of the better Pokemon games, and one of the best GB games ever. This is not nostalgia talking, I replayed Yellow earlier this year on the VC and was constantly impressed by how well it held up. Yes wrap sucks. Yes I hate Zubat. Yes item management is a pain in the ass. Yes Psychic is crazy unbalanced. But Kanto is a very well-realized world with complex areas to explore, real secrets that the game doesn't shine a spotlight on, a diverse amount of Pokemon, excellent pacing, and is by far the LEAST LINEAR Pokemon title even today.

Show me a damn dungeon in BW and beyond anywhere as complex as this. This is a MID GAME DUNGEON.


There are over 30 trainers to fight, including your rival and a boss. You had to traverse this massive building while also solving puzzles. You had to sit, think, and backtrack if you wanted to get everything. You got a LAPRAS and a MASTER BALL for clearing this. Now that's a reward.

Other areas like Mt. Moon, Victory Road, Seafoam Islands etc. are also complex in their own way. In Seafoam, you had push blocks down several levels in order to disrupt the flow of water and surf so you can catch a legendary Pokemon. There's no puzzle even a tenth as interesting in Sun/Moon (a game I still like). RBY had real ass RPG dungeons. You got lost, you had to use a bunch of items, and when you got out you let out a desperate sigh and just prayed you could get to the Pokemon Center soon enough. YOU ENTERED ROCK TUNNEL A BOY AND LEFT A MAN.

And back to an aforementioned point: this game is the least linear. When you got the Celadon, you basically had a huge chunk of the map completely open to you. There were multiple ways to get to Fuschia City, and you can do Fuschia or Saffron first. Even if you solely followed the story, you are taken in unexpected directions, like having to go through Vermillion City lower on the map instead of the closest town.

Before someone posts that glitch sheet... ain't no one care about that. Yes the game has a ton of glitches, but unless you seek them, you will never encounter them. The game is not balanced, but it was the first game and I have no idea if Game Freak even considered the series becoming a competitive juggernaut. I mean Knights of the Round in FFVII wasn't balanced. Mewtwo is the Knights of the Round of Pokemon.

Obviously people love RBY and Kanto for nostalgia purposes, but there are some seriously ambitious design decisions in the original game that contributed to it being a success at the time and still enjoyable to this day.

Goddamn this post is amazing! Looking back on this, these are the reasons I fucking loved these games so much! Nothing in the series has come close and unfortunately probably never will.

Also the thing I loved so much about gen 1 was that areas like those mentioned above, felt dangerous and creepy. When I was a kid playing this, you felt like you had to man up and get thru these areas. Can't forget the Unknown dungeon, Power plant, and probably my favorite, the burned down cinnabar mansion with the journals about mew and mewtwo! So damn cool! Hell, even the freaking safari zone felt a little dangerous.

Dammit! Now I want to replay these!