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[tuxfool]

And so we should praise those that can rise above the failures of others. "This won't apply for many games" means they failed to make something interesting from my perspective. Realistic world design be damned if the emotion attempting to be conveyed isn't frustration. And I don't think many developers want their player to be frustrated unless they're Yoko Taro or something.

I usually find potatolands inescapably stupid. So I avoid games like that. A properly contextualized open world matters to me, it makes it more immersive and interesting to traverse. I'm not particularly interested in videogame levels in open world format.

 

[Servbot24]

The problem is that most open world games have way, way, way too many quests, and every NPC seems similar after you do 50 quests in a row. I agree that's a problem, too. I'm just saying the current format it isn't really feasible to not have a quest log.

I actually think it's completely feasible. What would happen if it was removed? You'd be unaware of some potential activities in the game, and I think that's a great thing.

Games become real characters when it's not expected that the player should know everything, or that the player should be able to even beat the game; I have no idea about some things that are probably in Dark Souls and Majora's Mask for example, and I love that. There's mystique, they feel deeper than they probably actually are. Meanwhile playing a Ubisoft game feels like I'm playing a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I agree with you in a lot of respects...

But quests where it just tells you exactly where to go are horrible too. You just feel like you are following instructions, not playing a game.

Naw, I like this. It's a lot better than just mindlessly following a waypoint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
http://lesswrong.com/lw/hu/the_third_alternative/

I find quests in general, and both circle and waypoint quests in particular, to be archaic, trite design; an unnecessary evil in both cases. Like in so many other things, Soulsborne games are masterclasses in progression and exploration without the need for explicit quests; indeed, without the need for any kind of quest, if the player so chooses.

 

[Skux]

Would you rather them give you no clue at all and force you to search the whole landscape?

 

[tuxfool]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
http://lesswrong.com/lw/hu/the_third_alternative/

I find quests in general, and both circle and waypoint quests in particular, to be archaic, trite design; an unnecessary evil in both cases. Like in so many other things, Soulsborne games are masterclasses in progression and exploration without the need for explicit quests; indeed, without the need for any kind of quest, if the player so chooses.

That is because Souls games get away with keeping scales and traversal constraints at manageable levels. Their entire structure would fall apart in a more open environment.

 

[Timeaisis]

I actually think it's completely feasible. What would happen if it was removed? You'd be unaware of some potential activities in the game, and I think that's a great thing.

Games become real characters when it's not expected that the player should know everything, or that the player should be able to even beat the game; I have no idea about some things that are probably in Dark Souls and Majora's Mask for example, and I love that. There's mystique, they feel deeper than they probably actually are. Meanwhile playing a Ubisoft game feels like I'm playing a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet.

For one, I think quests would need to be more memorable, as well as NPCs. And for two, I think the game would have to rely a lot less on the player leveling via sidequests.

But other than that, I suppose it's tenable.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I usually find potatolands inescapably stupid. So I avoid games like that. A properly contextualized open world matters to me, it makes it more immersive and interesting to traverse. I'm not particularly interested in videogame levels in open world format.

I see. You think "gaminess" takes away from "immersion". I don't really agree with that. I think "gaminess" and "immersion" can be one and the same because I'm engaged with the creation. These sorts of quests fail to engage me which is why I hate them.

I view "engagement" as the similar to "immersion" which is why "gamey" elements are perfectly acceptable to me. I've been drawn into RE4 countless times and that's one of the most "Gamey" experiences I've ever played. Open worlds wpuld be better off by trying to draw engagement using traditional level design like environmental inconsistencies.

 

[Servbot24]

For one, I think quests would need to be more memorable, as well as NPCs. And for two, I think the game would have to rely a lot less on the player leveling via sidequests.

But other than that, I suppose it's tenable.

Yep, that first point is exactly part of why quest logs should be removed. It forces writers to make something good instead of a list of 50 drug dealers to bust, 50 walls to tag, 50 creatures to kill, and 50 tape recordings to pick up.

I'm not too familiar with leveling via side quests, most games I've played will have you level up through any type of combat. I recall DA:I doing something like that, and it just felt like adding a separate level up type to create false depth. That said, leveling is another thing I would heavily shake up or just remove altogether.

 

[More_Badass]

I'm actually fine with this as long as it's contextualized.

All quest design is inherently tedious, whether it be finding highlighted objects, killing a group of monsters, fighting a boss, collecting 3 flowers, etc. What makes it memorable, to me, is the story trappings around it. Take the vault quest in New Vegas where you're learning about the weird, fucked up democratic process they had to keep from everyone getting killed. It was a bog-standard dungeon with almost no thought to it whatsoever, but it was memorable because you were peeling back this mystery.

I'm not going to entirely defend W3's overuse on it, but in general it works because usually there's a compelling reason for everything or it lead you to a specific form of gameplay: Finding tracks to locate where a boss is instead of just following a waypoint to a boss. Or finding the different hints of what the boss was and then preparing with the right materials before said boss. It worked in a lot of areas because it wasn't the only thing you were doing, and if it was, there was some kind of story reason that strung it together like reading a good book.

Agree with this. Quests revolves around general gameplay concepts: go here, interact with this, fight this, collect this, talk with this person, etc. That's not specific to any game or quest. It's basic gameplay objectives, regardless of if you're being directed or if you're not. Or even regardless of genre (Halo or Uncharted, your objective can be go here and fight this in both)

What makes them feel different and unique is context and presentation. It's why a done-to-death premise like killer alien or haunted location or AI self-awareness can seem fresh and intriguing and engaging in Alien, The Shining, Ex Machina. I like the gameplay in The Witcher 3, but it's the story, enemies, journeying through the environments that makes the quests interesting

 

[10k]

First game I thought about was the witcher 3. Yet this game gets praised for its side content.

 

[tuxfool]

I see. You think "gaminess" takes away from "immersion". I don't really agree with that. I think "gaminess" and "immersion" can be one and the same because I'm engaged with the creation. These sorts of quests fail to engage me which is why I hate them.

I view "engagement" as the similar to "immersion" which is why "gamey" elements are perfectly acceptable to me. I've been drawn into RE4 countless times and that's one of the most "Gamey" experiences I've ever played. Open worlds wpuld be better off by trying to draw engagement using traditional level design like environmental inconsistencies.

I have nothing against videogamey, but that isn't why I play some open world games. I play those because they aspire to something other than pure videogame, they're clockwork worlds with analogous rules to our own.

First game I thought about was the witcher 3. Yet this game gets praised for its side content.

This isn't the sidecontent people are referring to when they praise the game.

 

[RedSwirl]

This is just a slightly less annoying version of wapoints, where the mission is actually supposed to present a mystery to the player. It's still a sign though of how most open-world games rely too much on waypoints.

I remember the good old days when NPCs would be like:

"It's to the forest in the north next to the rock shaped like the moon. Ware the Feral Rabbit monster that rests beneath its shade."

And then you'd go to the north and wander the forest to find the rock shaped liked the moon, and when you got there, you'd fight the feral rabbit monster that rested beneath its shade and get your item.

And also probably a lucky rabbits foot.

This is really it right here. Quest objectives used to have detailed descriptions of what or where you were looking for. Just read this article at Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Feli...e_Quest_Compass__its_dreadful_convenience.php

When graphics were simpler and lower resolutions only allowed for obvious landmarks. Now everything can be fully-rendered and highlighted to grab your attention.

Except there's one modern game I know of that still does this properly: Deus Ex Mankind Divided.

That game has optional waypoints and stuff, but if you turn them off you can still read the quest objective and it'll give you the details you need. Though I'll admit the hub area in that game is a city and all it has to give you is an apartment number and the name of the apartment complex, or the name of a store.

Skyrim has a mod for this, and what's funny is that game's world is filled with legible road signs that let you find your way around in an immersive way, but with default settings they're never really necessary. Bioshock has the same problem actually: A world where locations are realistically marked in-game along with detailed objective descriptions (or at least you can replay audio recordings), but it undercuts all of this with a massive GOAL sign on the map... after you turn off all the other HUD stuff.

 

[Lionel Richie]

The Witcher 3 is a game about tracking shit, remove that and you remove a good part of what "being" a witcher is supposed to be.

In other games that don't justify it as well, yeah, I agree.

 

[More_Badass]

The Witcher 3 is a game about tracking shit, remove that and you remove a good part of what "being" a witcher is supposed to be.

In other games that don't justify it as well, yeah, I agree.

I get that, and it's partially why I don't mind Witcher Sense as much as I dislike vision modes in other games, but I wish you actually had to work a bit harder to track stuff. Like actually make footprints and bloodstains pronounced so you could follow them without using it

 

[More_Badass]

This is just a slightly less annoying version of wapoints, where the mission is actually supposed to present a mystery to the player. It's still a sign though of how most open-world games rely too much on waypoints.



This is really it right here. Quest objectives used to have detailed descriptions of what or where you were looking for. Just read this article at Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Feli...e_Quest_Compass__its_dreadful_convenience.php

Game Maker's Toolkit actually did a good video covering this very topic
Following the Little Dotted Line

Getting around non-linear games and open worlds is easy: just follow the little dotted line. But is that always the best way to encourage exploration and investigation? Let's look at some games and ideas - old and new - that offer more involving ways to navigate a landscape.

 

[ghibli99]

If an NPC asks something of you, you go do it. No quest log. No icons. No circles on the map. You just do it if you feel like it, and since the creators in this hypothetical situation aren't cynically preying on your OCD with a rigid grid that you are required to fill in with 0.2mm grey pencil, the only way you're going to actually want to help that NPC out is if you genuinely feel for their character, you are genuinely intrigued by the task before you, or if you genuinely desire the potential reward.

So, Souls games basically.

 

[kurahador]

You guys who complained about quests getting too easy, try playing The Secret World -- where deciphering a real morse code, solving math riddle and translating foreign language poems are among the easier ones.

You'll learn to appreciate the easiness of these quests you complain about quickly.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

At least Horizon 3 added drone mode which makes it easy to fly around and find those barn finds. Before that it was such a pain in the arse

 

[Justinh]

I get that, and it's partially why I don't mind Witcher Sense as much as I dislike vision modes in other games, but I wish you actually had to work a bit harder to track stuff. Like actually make footprints and bloodstains pronounced so you could follow them without using it

I think I can agree with this. I think if they made "tracking" some monster, or finding clues about a nefarious person a more "active experience" and not just following a line on the ground, or in the air to an object highlighted in red it be a much more satisfying game.

I actually have no idea how one would do that though...

At least Horizon 3 added drone mode which makes it easy to fly around and find those barn finds. Before that it was such a pain in the arse

yeah, drone was handy on looking around to see the best way to jump on a roof to hit an xp sign.

 

[Kremzeek]

Uh, be thankful they even put a circle to roughly tell you the area to search.

Old skool would just tell you to search, with no circle or any visual guide.

 

[meerak]

Those types of quests are not great but also really not that big of a deal for me. Meh.

Must be tough lol, feeling like this. Good luck in the future!

 

[Lionel Richie]

I get that, and it's partially why I don't mind Witcher Sense as much as I dislike vision modes in other games, but I wish you actually had to work a bit harder to track stuff. Like actually make footprints and bloodstains pronounced so you could follow them without using it

I think some quests are flawed with things spread through the area with no logic whatsoever, but I do remember others where you have to follow footprints, horseprints, bloodstains and overall dragged stuff where it felt perfectly place in the world. Like it was believable it could have led me through the path it eventually did and I didn't feel like I was aimlessly following a set map. But yeah, it would be really hard to do so without Witcher Sense, so I agree with you.

The main issue to me is how not every quest have a natural progression of things you have to follow with or without Witcher Sense. I remember one in Hearts of Stone where I circled around for a good 10 minutes before finding the shit I was supposed to find and it just didn't make sense. Those are the worst IMO, things being spread for no reason with no logic. On the bright side for TW3, not a lot of quests felt like that.

 

[samred]

Watch Dogs 2 does this with its invasion mode. Someone joins your instance and hides within a certain radius for about 2 mins, but they can be at ANY elevation in the radius. In certain spots of the game, this makes some real bullshit hiding possible.

All games would be better with circle quests removed. Cosign.

 

[Jigorath]

That was by far my least favorite part of The Witcher 3.

 

[More_Badass]

I think I can agree with this. I think if they made "tracking" some monster, or finding clues about a nefarious person a more "active experience" and not just following a line on the ground, or in the air to an object highlighted in red it be a much more satisfying game.

I actually have no idea how one would do that though...

Witcher does a good job at defining Geralt's character through gameplay (no classes here, he's a sword-slinging mutant badass) and story/writing, but the "tracking" is very weak. It isn't tracking. It's "examine the necessary objects then follow the markers to the next objective you unlocked"

And you could do more with it. Ideally, I'd wish the monster hunting was more like Dragon's Dogma where the creatures and big beasts aren't mainly found in just quests, but roaming the world.

That part in the beginning where he cuts the griffin and then follows the blood wouldn't be scripted, but an actual gameplay tactic you could do. Or have special crossbow bolts that drip glowing liquid/visible smoke.

Monsters could have certain diets (just like they have weaknesses) and you'd have to hunt specific animals or buy herbs and chemicals to make bait to lure a monster out.

Stuff like that

 

[Peltz]

Xenoblade chronicles x was the first place I encountered this. It's a terrible mechanic.

 

[BouncyFrag]

If I hear a nirnroot, I must collect it.

 

[Soren01]

The curse of open world game.

Only God can create a world.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yet this is going against what was written in the OP. He got lost in search of things inside the circles.

So which is it people? Is it follow the line, or endlessly searching inside the circles?

depends on the shitty quest.

 

[Justinh]

And you could do more with it. Ideally, I'd wish the monster hunting was more like Dragon's Dogma where the creatures and big beasts aren't mainly found in just quests, but roaming the world.

That part in the beginning where he cuts the griffin and then follows the blood wouldn't be scripted, but an actual gameplay tactic you could do. Or have special crossbow bolts that drip glowing liquid/visible smoke.

Monsters could have certain diets (just like they have witnesses) and you'd have to hunt specific animals or buy herbs and chemicals to make bait to lure a monster out.

Stuff like that

Man, as much as I love this game, that stuff sounds really cool and I wish they did stuff like that now.

 

[beastlove]

Witcher does a good job at defining Geralt's character through gameplay (no classes here, he's a sword-slinging mutant badass) and story/writing, but the "tracking" is very weak. It isn't tracking. It's "examine the necessary objects then follow the markers to the next objective you unlocked"

And you could do more with it. Ideally, I'd wish the monster hunting was more like Dragon's Dogma where the creatures and big beasts aren't mainly found in just quests, but roaming the world.

That part in the beginning where he cuts the griffin and then follows the blood wouldn't be scripted, but an actual gameplay tactic you could do. Or have special crossbow bolts that drip glowing liquid/visible smoke.

Monsters could have certain diets (just like they have weaknesses) and you'd have to hunt specific animals or buy herbs and chemicals to make bait to lure a monster out.

Stuff like that

Really good idea. Would have been a far better game.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of people never finish open world games. I personally dislike open world games with a set narrative. I would have preferred the witcher just to be a series of witcher contracts and long side missions. Currently they are at odds with the main narrative. I imagine Geralt only focus would be stopping the wild hunt and wouldn't be breaking off his quest to find treasure, kill bandits, liberate villages etc.

 

[mnemonicj]

Yeah, anything that distracts from the fun gameplay is just boring.

 

[Shai-Tan]

I'm playing Infamous Second Son right now and there's a mini game called Secret Agent which seems reasonably fun to me. It shows you a picture and you have to find the person within the circle and then take them down. I also think traversal based collecting can potentially be fun. In Dragon Age Inquisition it tells you where the collectible is but the challenge is to find the pathway up to it. More compelling than running in circles until the object is found. Unfortunately that only applies to the collecting of some shards. For others it's just busy work.

 

[TedMilk]

I was trying to 100% Rise of the Tomb Raider last night.

Fucking carrier bird mission... it was the only time I had to use the internet, only to find out it wasn't even in the search area!

 

[Shai-Tan]

I was trying to 100% Rise of the Tomb Raider last night.

Fucking carrier bird mission... it was the only time I had to use the internet, only to find out it wasn't even in the search area!

Same, I think they just screwed up on the quest. Not that it would make it fun if it wasn't improperly scripted. That game has some of the most boring collecting. Almost as dense as Inquisition which isn't a complement.

 

[Cob32]

The map piece quests in ffxv are awful.

 

[zoukka]

Protip: don't do those sidequests in Witcher or FFXV, you will hate the games soon if you do.

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

They're also not fully open-world games. Which is a good thing. Semi-open/semi-linear is the best of both worlds. A lot of exploration and options, but all within an intricately crafted level.

Completely agree. When I play Deus Ex or right now Dishnoured 2 I want to explore every part of each level as best I can. They tend to be designed so well and it offers you more rewards for doing so as well as new paths to complete missions. Its also a size that seems explorable and not so insanely huge I feel it would take forever.

In your typical open world game so much of it is dead space and exploring really just means run around looking at the pretty scenery untill you find something you can loot / kill.

The best of both worlds is something akin to the souls games. Kind of an open world as its all (for the most part) seemlessly connected but its well crated into smaller areas that are much more interesting to explore rather than just gaint fields, roads etc that you run through aimlessly to get to the waypoint marker.

 

[Dec]

It honestly baffles me that a game with such terrible gameplay has had so much overwhelming praise. I guess graphics and production values go a long way. :\

?

That isn't why people love the witcher 3.

I think all Dark Souls fans have a pact to hate that game or something. It's truly odd.

 

[Markoman]

Haha, true. I've loved Batman Arkham Asylum back in the days, but any game that borrows a game play mechanics form that franchise is a red flag for me. Fuck detective vision, fuck tether combat, fuck million "?"s on the map.

 

[Donthizz#]

my eyes are hurting looking for frogs.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

I think all the people that voted W3 GOTY forgot how many of these quests it actually had. Hint: There were a fucktonne.

 

[zoukka]

my eyes are hurting looking for frogs.

Gotta get that Pro to help with those quests.

 

[tiebreaker]

It could be better if there are actual clues about the whereabout rather than only a red area on the map.

 

[Arkeband]

Protip: don't do those sidequests in Witcher or FFXV, you will hate the games soon if you do.

The best example of this is one early sidequest where you have to find a stone for that reporter NPC, and the stone isn't even in the fucking quest circle.

 

[DeadPhoenix]

Agreed. There are a few quests in FFXV that I refuse to finish because they are exactly like this.

I was just trying to do one of these, but every like minute more enemies would pop making it a fucking pain. I'm pretty sure I looked everywhere too, but it just refused to let me take my time. And I thought the point of arpgs like this was to not have random encounters like this...

EDIT: Damn it just read the post above. Fuck that shit. I am really hating this open world thing they are trying in ffxv. I feel like they should have gotten some help from the FFXIV team because a lot of this stuff feels like a shit MMO.

 

[Diabelli]

This reminds me how awesome the treasure maps are in Red Dead Redemption.

Yeah, I actually really enjoyed those. It actually felt like you were treasure hunting, rather than based on just pure luck.

 

[HK-47]

The problem is that most open world games have way, way, way too many quests, and every NPC seems similar after you do 50 quests in a row. I agree that's a problem, too. I'm just saying the current format it isn't really feasible to not have a quest log.

I do agree with the general sentiment that we need fewer, but more meaningful quests. Fallout: New Vegas is probably the best example of this I can give.



They aren't really optional, though. I mean, yes, technically they are. But in order to proceed with main content at the recommended level, doing some menial sideuqests is necessary.

FNV has like over 100 quests.

 

[op_ivy]

Looks like ME andromeda carries this trope along with

 

[Arkeband]

I was just trying to do one of these, but every like minute more enemies would pop making it a fucking pain. I'm pretty sure I looked everywhere too, but it just refused to let me take my time. And I thought the point of arpgs like this was to not have random encounters like this...

EDIT: Damn it just read the post above. Fuck that shit. I am really hating this open world thing they are trying in ffxv. I feel like they should have gotten some help from the FFXIV team because a lot of this stuff feels like a shit MMO.

A lot of FFXIV feels like a shit MMO too, tbh.