In general.
I don't get why it exists. I mean, I understand it historically, but it shouldn't still be here. Kind of like kicking in american football.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Im done with "Running Around Inside a Circle To Find Something" quests
- Thread starter Timeaisis
- Start date
In general.
I don't get why it exists. I mean, I understand it historically, but it shouldn't still be here. Kind of like kicking in american football.
Yup, really pulls the whole experience down for me.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Oh god. That one is the woooorst.
There's another that seems to be glitched. There's an NPC hiding between some rocks you need to find early on. Apparently he's supposed to shout for help as an audio cue. The problem is he doesn't. Same problem of the game giving you a set destination point and him not actually being there.
BleedOrange
Banned
I'll admit it here: I'm part of the problem. I bought the $1 cheat code DLC for Forza Horizon 3 which shows the location of all Destroyable Signs and Barnfinds on the map.
My shame is unbearable.
My shame is unbearable.
I'll say that is still too hard. what is a pile of stones in a forest?
You have an npc go "it is in this pile of stones over in that forest."
"Where in that forest?"
"East side."
So then unless the forest is just a copse of trees, you're going to be running up and down the east side of the forest in search for a pile of rocks.
You got a good deal. That thing's usually $3.
Not sure I'm following what you mean. How else would you structure something where an NPC in a game needs or is asking you to do something for them?
Those frogs in FFXV were terrible.
I think something like Witcher's one can work. If it was objects over a large distance.
Like find the entrance to a cave that you know the general area of.
Witcher relies a lot on "Witcher Senses" which doesn't make the game all that fun.
It's essentially hold a button to see a line to follow or what to pick up.
Plenty of games to variations of it like see through walls modes that light up interactable objects in games like Deus Ex.
How do you make it more interesting whilst still being able to create quests and other reasons to traverse an open world? I'm not too sure.
But playing Bloodborne recently opened my eyes to having no minimap or objective markers.
It means you have to learn how the environment fits together to traverse it and I think that gives a better appreciation for the work the artists have put into the world.
For example I can imagine in my head how to get from the Upper Cathedral Ward to The Forbidden Woods. I can say the same for very few games I've played a ton of like Ocarina of Time and Golden Sun. But this was through a single playthrough.
I think these open world games need to get smaller but fill its areas with more context.
LIke Assassins Creed Syndicate could be way more interesting if you spent time walking through streets that got you familiar with how they look like.
If you know that you're walking down regents street to Trafalgar square then spotting something for a quest is way easier.
But hey, the reality is that the average person doesn't spend a lot of time playing games and expect a certain level of immediacy to playing it.
Difficulty can't be scaled as easily as hitpoints for quest complexity.
I think something like Witcher's one can work. If it was objects over a large distance.
Like find the entrance to a cave that you know the general area of.
Witcher relies a lot on "Witcher Senses" which doesn't make the game all that fun.
It's essentially hold a button to see a line to follow or what to pick up.
Plenty of games to variations of it like see through walls modes that light up interactable objects in games like Deus Ex.
How do you make it more interesting whilst still being able to create quests and other reasons to traverse an open world? I'm not too sure.
But playing Bloodborne recently opened my eyes to having no minimap or objective markers.
It means you have to learn how the environment fits together to traverse it and I think that gives a better appreciation for the work the artists have put into the world.
For example I can imagine in my head how to get from the Upper Cathedral Ward to The Forbidden Woods. I can say the same for very few games I've played a ton of like Ocarina of Time and Golden Sun. But this was through a single playthrough.
I think these open world games need to get smaller but fill its areas with more context.
LIke Assassins Creed Syndicate could be way more interesting if you spent time walking through streets that got you familiar with how they look like.
If you know that you're walking down regents street to Trafalgar square then spotting something for a quest is way easier.
But hey, the reality is that the average person doesn't spend a lot of time playing games and expect a certain level of immediacy to playing it.
Difficulty can't be scaled as easily as hitpoints for quest complexity.
Quests can often be used as a way to 'stretch your legs' with the game's mechanics. To fight a boss that is harder than normal enemies you encounter. To traverse an environment that is harder to traverse than normal environments. And you then get some sort of reward for completing them. Nothing wrong with them when they're an extension of the game's primary mechanics (you know, the reason you're playing the game to begin with?) to see how well you can use them.
I can see taking issue with 'quests' that have their own mechanic separate from the game's primary ones (collect things on the ground, dumb minigame, etc), but there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a quest.
Goldenroad
Member
Fetch quests in general can just stop already. I believe this sentiment has been expressed by gamers for the last decade though, so they obviously are not going anywhere.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The whole witcher sense schtick was terrible. You never have to critically think about anything just follow the line while your finger starts hurting from holding the trigger.
Neoleo2143
Member
But assuming "good design", the developer would be able to convey the inconsistency well. For searching for an object to be fair, it needs to be reasonably observable. Nintendo is pretty good at this if the BoTW Koroks are any indication.
The issue is that most developers do this badly.
If an NPC asks something of you, you go do it. No quest log. No icons. No circles on the map. You just do it if you feel like it, and since the creators in this hypothetical situation aren't cynically preying on your OCD with a rigid grid that you are required to fill in with 0.2mm grey pencil, the only way you're going to actually want to help that NPC out is if you genuinely feel for their character, you are genuinely intrigued by the task before you, or if you genuinely desire the potential reward.
Yet this is going against what was written in the OP. He got lost in search of things inside the circles.
So which is it people? Is it follow the line, or endlessly searching inside the circles?
Neoleo2143
Member
So, most Zelda Quests.
The
sidequest in Hammerhead in FFXV almost made me nuts. I am conditioned to search the entire area if it is marked on the mini-map. I walked through it quite a few times but that thing didn't want to spawn. Then I approached the marking in the middle of the area and it appeared instantly. I was mad.
The frogs I found relatively fast. But I hate that kind of quest.
Giant Flan hunt
The frogs I found relatively fast. But I hate that kind of quest.
KeyBladerXIII
Member
FFXIV has these too, but it gets really bad in the Heavensward areas where you can fly. So not only do you have to scan the X and Y axis, but the Z axis too. Places like Sea of Clouds, Churning Mists and Azys Lla have floating islands on top of floating islands, so it gets infuriating.
Yup, Zelda is generally a good example. Not the only answer of course.
To me it seems nobody has figured out how to do low-stakes quests very well, without falling into a cookie cutter trap like this. Even the best RPGs struggle with this menial stuff.
Seems like the only answer is to just not include quests like this, or to devote a lot of energy and resources to making small quests unique and engaging. But either way you end up with a problem of either people feeling stiffed by a lack of content, or a rapidly ballooning budget.
Seems like the only answer is to just not include quests like this, or to devote a lot of energy and resources to making small quests unique and engaging. But either way you end up with a problem of either people feeling stiffed by a lack of content, or a rapidly ballooning budget.
Neoleo2143
Member
It's still bad design that doesn't need to be there. If a game must have a piece of content, it should strive to be at least decent and challenge the player to do something reasonable.
Two of my favorite quests in recent memory are the Eevium Z quest in Pokemon Sun and the Sea Mauville quest in ORAS. Not only are they very tragic stories about what it means to grow old or the tension between insane workplaces and family relationships but they rely on the player to investigate and figure out the clues, you've already gone through the game in the former case so most of the locations are familiar. This should be the standard RPG questline.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
classic final fantasy always had a lot of these. Not always based around NPCs either, just based on curious findings
Breath of the Wild looks like a fairly sparse environment. Either way I'd refrain from making such judgments on an unreleased game.
TemplaerDude
Member
Sure, what are your ideas for more engaging quests?
The problem is that most open world games have way, way, way too many quests, and every NPC seems similar after you do 50 quests in a row. I agree that's a problem, too. I'm just saying the current format it isn't really feasible to not have a quest log.
I do agree with the general sentiment that we need fewer, but more meaningful quests. Fallout: New Vegas is probably the best example of this I can give.
They aren't really optional, though. I mean, yes, technically they are. But in order to proceed with main content at the recommended level, doing some menial sideuqests is necessary.
But you can listen to their sound to figure out where they are.
Movalpolos
Banned
Deus Ex HR and MD did quests really well. I think giving the player the ability to tackle objectives in different ways or something that leads to a branching quest line is way more interesting.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It honestly baffles me that a game with such terrible gameplay has had so much overwhelming praise. I guess graphics and production values go a long way. :\
They're also not fully open-world games. Which is a good thing. Semi-open/semi-linear is the best of both worlds. A lot of exploration and options, but all within an intricately crafted level.
The best quests are ones you can do on accident by simply exploring. Finding treasure. Finding a key item. Maybe a quest giver would have told you where it was if you talked to more people, but the fact that you didn't need to talk to anyone and you found it on your own is rewarding as can be. I love it when games do that.
Kill a giant beast, come back to town 'hey can you kill giant beast for us?' "oh that? Done. 10,000 zenny please"
I killed it because I wanted the challenge, not because you told me to do it.
JinjoUnchained
Member
I'll say it again, every game should do collectibles like the Xenoblade games: every pickup, no matter what it is, is represented as a shiny silver diamond. If it's a quest item, then it's a shiny red diamond.
You still have the circle around the search area, but you don't need "detective vision" or to follow a blood trail or "hidden tomb nearby!" It's snappy, fun, and doesn't interfere with the graphics of the environment.
You still have the circle around the search area, but you don't need "detective vision" or to follow a blood trail or "hidden tomb nearby!" It's snappy, fun, and doesn't interfere with the graphics of the environment.
Well, those red blobs in fields are also always accompanied with solid unique writing while Geralt investigates the scenario. They always feel like it's adding to the world.
Movalpolos
Banned
Yeah this is true. I played the game mostly with headphones so this was never a problem. Still boring though.
TemplaerDude
Member
And now it's a Witcher 3 thread. Shocking.
30yearsofhurt
Member
ITT: I'm 'done' with macguffins cause I have to be 'done' with something..
What generally matters is that they're properly contextualized in the world, as such feel like organic events or locations. Almost nothing in that game is just placed in a location, "just because".
To be fair, that was the main example I posted in the OP. It was filled with shit like this.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
I believe Borderlands does this. I lost my mind looking for some items.
Neoleo2143
Member
If the rest of the game's design falls into nonsense I'm inclined to agree, but they've shown off the vast majority of the opening to the game and the Koroks in that area are superbly handled, if anything "sparseness" draws attention to the spots that they are located in. Details become meaningful for interaction. That's good design.
Bloodporne
Member
Amen to that. Absolutely allergic to it at this point and I certainly have tried seeing how every other game has to be open world right now.
But not really realistic world design. It might be a great videogame map, but it is liable to fall into potatoland syndrome.
It is great if you can design a game head to toe around such things, but this won't apply for many games.
I'm actually fine with this as long as it's contextualized.
All quest design is inherently tedious, whether it be finding highlighted objects, killing a group of monsters, fighting a boss, collecting 3 flowers, etc. What makes it memorable, to me, is the story trappings around it. Take the vault quest in New Vegas where you're learning about the weird, fucked up democratic process they had to keep from everyone getting killed. It was a bog-standard dungeon with almost no thought to it whatsoever, but it was memorable because you were peeling back this mystery.
I'm not going to entirely defend W3's overuse on it, but in general it works because usually there's a compelling reason for everything or it lead you to a specific form of gameplay: Finding tracks to locate where a boss is instead of just following a waypoint to a boss. Or finding the different hints of what the boss was and then preparing with the right materials before said boss. It worked in a lot of areas because it wasn't the only thing you were doing, and if it was, there was some kind of story reason that strung it together like reading a good book.
For me, it's leagues better than "HAY WE NEED MORE INSECT BONES GO FIGHT 80 INSECTS". It's not the ultimate form of gameplay, but it worked very well for the kind of stuff CDPR was trying to do. Open world game design is riddled with problems, and W3 is not really free from that criticism. It is, however, a really good step forward for the genre, though.
All quest design is inherently tedious, whether it be finding highlighted objects, killing a group of monsters, fighting a boss, collecting 3 flowers, etc. What makes it memorable, to me, is the story trappings around it. Take the vault quest in New Vegas where you're learning about the weird, fucked up democratic process they had to keep from everyone getting killed. It was a bog-standard dungeon with almost no thought to it whatsoever, but it was memorable because you were peeling back this mystery.
I'm not going to entirely defend W3's overuse on it, but in general it works because usually there's a compelling reason for everything or it lead you to a specific form of gameplay: Finding tracks to locate where a boss is instead of just following a waypoint to a boss. Or finding the different hints of what the boss was and then preparing with the right materials before said boss. It worked in a lot of areas because it wasn't the only thing you were doing, and if it was, there was some kind of story reason that strung it together like reading a good book.
For me, it's leagues better than "HAY WE NEED MORE INSECT BONES GO FIGHT 80 INSECTS". It's not the ultimate form of gameplay, but it worked very well for the kind of stuff CDPR was trying to do. Open world game design is riddled with problems, and W3 is not really free from that criticism. It is, however, a really good step forward for the genre, though.
Pilgrimzero
Member
Blame MMOs and their effect on regular RPGs.
You know it's bad when it's even in racing games now. The barn finds in Forza Horizon 3(all of them technically) drive me nuts, no pun intended.
On some it seems like I've driven around the damn purple circle I don't know how many times, only to stumble upon it or give up and try later. Just not fun.
On some it seems like I've driven around the damn purple circle I don't know how many times, only to stumble upon it or give up and try later. Just not fun.
Art Vandilay
Member
This reminds me how awesome the treasure maps are in Red Dead Redemption.
Neoleo2143
Member
And so we should praise those that can rise above the failures of others. "This won't apply for many games" means they failed to make something interesting from my perspective. Realistic world design be damned if the emotion attempting to be conveyed isn't frustration. And I don't think many developers want their player to be frustrated unless they're Yoko Taro or something.
Add the Wind Waker Sea Charts to that. Could do with better rewards but the core is solid.