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[Glass Shark]

Not voting for cabinet nominees that are going to get approved anyway is absolutely not the same thing as defending Nazis from being punched

This is not the time for political math. They only "get approved anyway" if everyone goes into it with that same mentality. GOP has been obstructionist as hell for the past 8 years, it's time to repay the favor. I don't care if people think it's petty.

 

[tuxfool]

I think Gillibrand has actually voted no on everyone. She didn't event want to grant Mattis the waiver.

IIRC she said yes on Haley.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I think Gillibrand has actually voted no on everyone. She didn't event want to grant Mattis the waiver.

Gillibrand voted for Haley. She just hasn't voted for any actual Cabinet nominees.

 

[reggieandTFE]

Bernie and Cenk might have the right idea. You should probably just burn all of D.C. down and start over from scratch.

But those democrats won't be 'electable' and the Republicans will end up in control of everything!

 

[Blader]

I also, sadly, don't see how they help with a government that doesn't give a fuck.

What did the Women's march accomplish? International Planned Parenthood is still got defunded a day later.

The point of protest is to organize and galvanize the base for stronger electoral action. The actual impact on laws takes a hell of a lot of time.

Bernie's delighted to work on issues that Bernie agrees with, and will fight tooth and nail on issues that Bernie does not agree with. Sounds reasonable enough.

Bernie's been advocating to kill the TPP since forever. He'd look stupid as hell to go back on his principles. If you read what Bernie says and watch what he does, he goes along with issues he agrees with and obstructs issues that he does not agree with.

I don't have much issue with Bernie's reasoning behind it. My point is that working on issues where they agree and blocking where they don't is exactly what these "spineless Dems" are being accused of.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Just goes to show even the good guys give up.

We are in the timeline where the villians won. Incredible!

 

[LegendofJoe]

The democratic party also needs to be smart and strategic about where it focuses its priorities. Take Puerto Rico for instance, I think the Democratic party should come out forcefully in favor of making them a full fledged US state. Keep pounding that drum and force the GOP and Trump to take a stance. If they agree, great you've likely gained seats in Congress (won't happen). If they oppose it, and Trump is his usual racist self, it will be a clear signal to Latino-Americans that the GOP is not on their side.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

This is not the time for political math. They only "get approved anyway" if everyone goes into it with that same mentality. GOP has been obstructionist as hell for the past 8 years, it's time to repay the favor. I don't care if people think it's petty.

No, they get approved if 50 of the 52 GOP senators vote for confirmation. Every single Dem can vote against every single Trump nomination and have absolutely zero impact beyond making people feel better about it.

 

[Glass Shark]

I also, sadly, don't see how they help with a government that doesn't give a fuck.

What did the Women's march accomplish? International Planned Parenthood is still got defunded a day later.

Reports were that Trump was infuriated and demoralized by the marches and their turnout. That may not seem like much, but if it's what we can get, then so be it. The best we can do right now as a people until mid-term elections is to constantly let the people in power know that we're not okay with this and they're not what we believe in. Take away their "safe space," so to speak.

No, they get approved if 50 of the 52 GOP senators vote for confirmation. Every single Dem can vote against every single Trump nomination and have absolutely zero impact beyond making people feel better about it.

Exactly, and that's an even worse perspective. That means every single Democrat could have voted against in solidarity, but they didn't. They rolled over and threw up their hands. It's so fucking stupid. Even if it doesn't make actual change and is just symbolic, that's fine. Symbols are important. People rally behind symbols.

 

[Lois_Lane]

Royalan , just wanted to say I agree with everything you say. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Blader]

This is not the time for political math. They only "get approved anyway" if everyone goes into it with that same mentality. GOP has been obstructionist as hell for the past 8 years, it's time to repay the favor. I don't care if people think it's petty.

Actually they'll get approved no matter what mentality Dems have. Wanting to ignore the math doesn't change that the GOP has the numbers to push through these people.

There is no battle in the sense that them showing up to vote is NOT a battle. They vote, there is nothing else to it for that particular role. Also, if you think Dems didn't get rid of the filibuster because some in the GOP voted for Obama's nominees you're delusional. If the GOP is going to nuke the filibuster they are going to do it because of the Supreme Court. Dems voting yes or no to Trump's cabinet will not play into that.

Until the GOP actually nukes the filibuster then the Dems should use it to their advantage. That is not now, as there is no filibuster for cabinet picks.

 

[slit]

No, they get approved if 50 of the 52 GOP senators vote for confirmation. Every single Dem can vote against every single Trump nomination and have absolutely zero impact beyond making people feel better about it.

So it's better to have zero impact and have the base feel horrible about it?

Until the GOP actually nukes the filibuster then the Dems should use it to their advantage. That is not now, as there is no filibuster for cabinet picks.

Yes I know that, I'm saying the actual process of voting doesn't change the equation except to disillusion your supporters.

 

[Arkeband]

Fuck that.

Bernie is another one out there voting to confirm and begging Trump to work with him in every other interview.

He checked his spine in at the door, too.

You're ridiculous.

 

[reggieandTFE]

Royalan , just wanted to say I agree with everything you say. Keep fighting the good fight.

The good fight to keep Democrats boot licking their corporate masters while projecting no cohesive national vision and positioning themselves to never be in power again?

 

[Diablos]

Just saw this on twitter.

I will take any hope I can get right now.

Why didn't they continue to raise this during the primary and kicked him the fuck out of the party?? Who cares if he got mad and ran as an independent, there were times Bernie could have too -- TAKE THE RISK.

Dems might be spineless is opposing Trump now but honestly so are the Republicans, just in a different way. They never should have let him hijack their platform. Hillary was going to have a hard time against any Republican.

 

[Rentahamster]

I don't have much issue with Bernie's reasoning behind it. My point is that working on issues where they agree and blocking where they don't is exactly what these "spineless Dems" are being accused of.

Well, I think on the issue of the recent appointments, the current thinking is that none of them should agree on any of the appointments, hence they should all block.

Some people can't imagine that some Democrats might think that some of those appointments actually aren't that bad enough to reject.

 

[gutterboy44]

This is why I am focusing on the elections of existing democrats as well as republicans seats that can swing in two years. Democrat's complacency is just as much to blame as the GOP's disgraceful agenda. Negotiation and bargaining implies some sort of mutual give and take, but it is just GOP taking and Dems giving and it is mind boggling that they still think they have any deal making power.

So what happens when these cabinet members do start shitting on the people Dem's are supposed to protect and represent? Then every one of those issues will then need focus and opposition. But don't worry, they will have to let some slide so they can focus on the important ones. It is just flushing shit down stream. Well, we are pretty fucking far down stream right now and spineless democrats are just as bad as hate filled republicans. They need to go. This old system is antiquated and has cost them power at every level of gov't. They can't keep doing the same shit, and we can't keep electing the same do nothing dems.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Fuck that.

Bernie is another one out there voting to confirm and begging Trump to work with him in every other interview.

He checked his spine in at the door, too.

It must be nice to live in that bubble where you literally ignore facts.

As i said, Bernie is literally the only one trying to hold Trump to account on bullshit he said during the election, including his claims that were populist.

He's the only one in the senate who has bothered to work across the aisle to do what Obama always pretended he was doing, gain major legislative victories.

https://web.archive.org/web/2016031...e-sanders-amendments.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

He's never been a partisan hack who will pretend things good for the country are not good. But at the same time he's generally not a coward like the others who vote against prescription drug re-importation and buckle under these shitty confirmation hearings just cause they want to get in good with the administration and the flow of power

 

[LegendofJoe]

The Democratic party has a gift in Trump in many ways. If the GOP can't force him to change course with his attack on immigrants the entire southwest sans Texas can be turned blue. Arizona is primed for the taking (both Senator and Governor) and Republican governors could also be unseated in Nevada, New Mexico, and Florida.

It will also pay big dividends in Texas in the near future. The numbers likely won't be there in 2018, but in 2020 and beyond? Things will start to get interesting. Hell, if the GOP screws things up bad enough maybe one of the Castro brothers could have a fighting chance against Cornyn for the Senate.

 

[Ashodin]

Every single one of Trump's Cabinet nominees will be confirmed.

There will be time for fights in the coming weeks when Trump picks a lunatic for the Supreme Court and Ryan and McConnell try to repeal everything.

You think there'll be fights huh...

 

[teruterubozu]

It must be nice to live in that bubble where you literally ignore facts.

As i said, Bernie is literally the only one trying to hold Trump to account on bullshit he said during the election, including his claims that were populist.

He's the only one in the senate who has bothered to work across the aisle to do what Obama always pretended he was doing, gain major legislative victories.

https://web.archive.org/web/2016031...e-sanders-amendments.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

He's never been a partisan hack who will pretend things good for the country are not good and. But at the same time he's generally not a cowards like the others who vote against prescription drug re-importation and buckle under these shitty confirmation hearings.

Don't bother with royalan about Bernie. Pretty sure he hates him more than Trump.

 

[Blader]

Well, I think on the issue of the recent appointments, the current thinking is that none of them should agree on any of the appointments, hence they should all block.

Some people can't imagine that some Democrats might think that some of those appointments actually aren't that bad enough to reject.

Why should Democrats vote against people like Mattis and Kelly if they think they are moderating influences that they could work with? The truth is, some of these appointments actually aren't that bad enough to reject. Some are as best as you can hope for with Trump, or hell any Republican president.

So again: why is it ok for Bernie to say he's delighted to work with Trump on issues where they agree, but it's totally anathema for Dems to vote against cabinet nominees that they may actually have overlap with?

Let me also ask you this: if Trump proposes a massive infrastructure bill that is a genuine public works project and not just a trillion-dollar tax break to his favorite contractors, should Senate Dems support that? Or should they block it, even though it's something they've been fighting for for years, solely on the basis that it was put forth by Donald Trump?

 

[LosDaddie]

The Dems don't have any power. These confirmation hearings are merely a formality. Dems can't block nominees alone.

Dems are going to oppose DJT, but they're nearly helpless in doing so right now. This is what losing huge in the midterms does. It cripples a party.

Don't worry, if enough people change their profile pictures and avatars with "resistance" something good is bound to happen.

This is good.

 

[Gotchaye]

The tactical argument for not going out of their way to cast pointless "no" votes on relatively unimportant things strikes me as pretty reasonable, really.

Like, when the Republicans had control of Congress and were opposing Obama on absolutely everything, their approval tanked. Everyone understood to some degree that the Republicans were uninterested in working together with Obama for the good of the country. They were willing to take this hit because by actually preventing Obama from getting anything done they made the government look ineffective and made the country worse off, and that reflects poorly on the party of the president in the eyes of many voters.

Before the Republicans controlled Congress, they had a different strategy. This one was about pretending to be participating in good faith while moving goalposts and sadly finding fault with finalized plans, only choosing a small number of things to call out as unacceptable. The passage of the ACA was dragged out for over a year even though Democrats could have just rammed something through. There was lots of bipartisan negotiation. And the end result is that Republicans "found" the final bill totally unacceptable and it was enormously unpopular, and the general perception is that it was rammed "down our throats".

The argument on the other side seems to be that Democratic voters demand lots of pointless signalling of opposition in order to feel like showing up for elections. And maybe that's true. But it seems to me that if the real concern is about voters perceiving Democrats as spineless even when nothing they're doing so far indicates genuine spinelessness, it's just making the problem worse to, say, title a thread about it this way.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Don't bother with royalan about Bernie. Pretty sure he hates him more than Trump.

I know some people are still salty from the election, but we need to move past that and look at things that we can do that are constructive and help this country..and more importantly build up mindshare for 2018 midterms in a positive manner to actually kneecap this administration as much as we can

And we can't do that if the dems are still out there doing the same shit that lost them a ton of enthusiasm and good will the last time

 

[teruterubozu]

I know some people are still salty from the election, but we need to move past that and look at things that we can do that are constructive and help this country..and more importantly build up mindshare for 2018 midterms in a positive manner

Hey I agree. I'm just saying pick your battles.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

For the Dems "delighted" to work with Trump when is it too much? They say no compromise on rights but jump up and down when they think there is something they like. What is the fucking tipping point? Surely if they aren't just spineless words about defending rights and lives there has to be point where working with Trump is too reprehensible, right?

Just keep compromising civil rights looking for ways to work with him, keep telling us this is ok.

 

[royalan]

The good fight to keep Democrats boot licking their corporate masters while projecting no cohesive national vision and positioning themselves to never be in power again?

You haven't paid attention to a single post I've made in this thread if that's what you think I'm about.

But hey, don't let me stop you from holding a grudge. Just make sure to save some of that wasted energy for calling a congressman and getting some real work done.

It must be nice to live in that bubble where you literally ignore facts.

As i said, Bernie is literally the only one trying to hold Trump to account on bullshit he said during the election, including his claims that were populist.

He's the only one in the senate who has bothered to work across the aisle to do what Obama always pretended he was doing, gain major legislative victories.

https://web.archive.org/web/2016031...e-sanders-amendments.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

He's never been a partisan hack who will pretend things good for the country are not good. But at the same time he's generally not a coward like the others who vote against prescription drug re-importation and buckle under these shitty confirmation hearings just cause they want to get in good with the administration and the flow of power

Umm...Franken says hi?

You literally think Bernie is the only person doing anything to oppose Trump, and you literally have the gall accuse me of living in a factless bubble...

 

[ElectricThunder]

No substantive confidence in the top folks in the Dems to actively go against the Status Quo and general US Hegemony....so given Trump and his ilk very much want to drag things towards a fantastical backwardness bolstering the spirit of such for short term gains* that will devastate the future---it ain't looking good.

None of this is all that new---just overt compared to the thousand cuts in the dark of night with occasional flourishes to the world the GOP has been at since at least Reagan. If not Trump, then somebody else on roughly the same page would've got there just the same as this election was the result of failings at many levels over decades now of ceding stark reality for moderation in stagnation instead of calling out the seeds of evil from the very start.

Kicking all those cans down the road for so many years has finally started to take a more immediate toll.

 

[KingV]

Yep, bad start. Though, honestly, Mattis isn't that bad of a pick though I understand why many are concerned with a military man at the post. But I really don't think he's that bad. The rest, though...yeah. Yeah. I have no idea if America can survive all of this.

In all honesty most of the cabinet picks are shitty in the same way that any Republican would pick shitty Cabinet picks. Yea Nikki Haley is bad, but so was John Bolton.

The only one thst has been confirmed so far that is shockingly terrible is Ben Carson. Even bush mostly NJ nominated people with relevant experience to HUD. Maybe Devos, but she at least has some tangential tie to education and it's no secret that Republicans like vouchers and charter schools.

Largely though, I agree that the Democrats have no spine.

 

[Vengal]

I feel like the Democrats and the left have a pretty big unity issue. I had several friends go in different groups to the DC March and tell me about alot of minor infighting and extremely contrasting views.

The left needs to make uneasy alliances and stop drawing lines in the sand with each other and focus on the larger problems. I totally get that it's easy to take that stance from a place of privilege (though I'm a half Iranian non practicing muslim), but shit man the right has that in lock step.

You have Mormon hating preachers working with Mormons, or poor people in Kentucky OKing the billions of dollars to build a small wall in Texas. They might be ignorant or niaeve but they're in power and setting up mechanisms to remain in power while the opposition draw battle lines with each other.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Texas is also expected to gain 2 seats in the House. The Democratic party really should go all out to oppose Trump's demonization of Lations. I really think that focusing on advocating for Puerto Rico to become a state while states/cities fight Trump's attacks on immigrants is the best strategy.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Of course. Why do you think Democrats would bend over backwards for the base? Most of you are going to rationally fall in line come election time. Therefore, you can be used, abused, ignored, and taken for granted. There's no alternative.

This is why the "democrats fall in love, republicans fall in line" quote that gets repeated here is completely false.

Democratic voters don't actually demand anything from their reps. Republicans do. They are actually worried that their base won't turn out if they don't placate to them. Hence why the Republican base is the only one that actually gets what they want

 

[Gutek]

I definitely hear all of this, and agree that in a time where they lack real power, these symbolic votes matter in keeping their base energized.

But I also think that we are probably amongst the most engaged voters, and that a lot of the base the party needs to show up during the midterms and 2020 aren't paying attention to the minutiae of cabinet confirmations, especially when news cycles are currently flooded with discussions of Trump's fixation on crowd sizes, "alternative facts", and whatever executive order is being declared that day. Though the cabinet is obviously very important, it doesn't garner the amount of media attention that Trump's SC nominee will garner. There Dems have no excuse, they NEED to hold the line there.

Have we learned nothing? You need to energize your base first and foremost.

 

[Lime]

No substantive confidence in the top folks in the Dems to actively go against the Status Quo and general US Hegemony....so given Trump and his ilk very much want to drag things towards a fantastical backwardness bolstering the spirit of such for short term gains* that will devastate the future---it ain't looking good.

None of this is all that new---just overt compared to the thousand cuts in the dark of night with occasional flourishes to the world the GOP has been at since at least Reagan. If not Trump, then somebody else on roughly the same page would've got there just the same as this election was the result of failings at many levels over decades now of ceding stark reality for moderation in stagnation instead of calling out the seeds of evil from the very start.

Kicking all those cans down the road for so many years has finally started to take a more immediate toll.

This is a pretty precise and accurate assessment.

 

[MajinSweet4]

I think that resistance is going to be much more effective if you focus on someone like Tillerson.
I don't know, maybe it's the wrong tactical move, again, I don't think it matters all that much. I'm sure they will disappoint us all down the road for real, there will be time (and a need) for that outrage.

More effective to focus on Tillerson? You focus on everything and fight tooth and nail against your opposition in times like this. That's what the GOP did against Obama for 8 years. They never were like "Well, this bill is small time, let it pass for PR, we'll focus on the next one." By cooperating with Trumps administration in anyway, you help normalize it. If that happens, we have truly lost. This is the time above all others where the democrats need to kick and scream at every turn, regardless of how hopeless it is.

 

[KingK]

You got to think about those things in a more practical and less symbolic way.
Like it or not the public and the media have a limited attention span - there are two stories that the media can tell about this -

• Democrats oppose everything Trump propose.
• Democrats oppose this awful unqualified person for this job.

Understand, this is a PR fight, Democrats have no ability to make Trump cabinet not awful, and if you want to pick a PR fight, I think it's much better to do it over Rex Tillerson than Nikki Haley.

And more broadly, Trump is going to dump a ton of shit on this country and it's going to overwhelm the news and the public, that's how those fuckers work. You won't be able to fight it all, at least not until you get some political power back. Democrats need to focus on issues where they can be united, where they can win and where a win will make a real difference. Whether or not Ben Carson is going to be the HUD secretary is none of those things.

Don't worry, I'm sure Democrats will have time to legit disappoint you, but this is at worst an insignificant tactical error.

Yeah, agreed.

I understand and agree with the OP's point that Democratic politicians are generally spineless, but I don't think the cabinet votes are the best example of that. Let's see what they say and do about the executive orders and upcoming legislation.

Also, I've fucking hated Schumer for years now. I can't believe that piece of shit who tried to stop his own president's biggest foreign policy achievement (Iran deal) is now the leader of Senate Dems. What a joke.

 

[VendettaRed07]

edit: quoted wrong person

But gaf told me that we need to tell our base to fuck off god forbid anyone they like wins an election and upsets our corporate centrists that everyone loves so much who are ok with the government being loaded with psychotic unqualified morons

 

[Gutek]

In short: the democrats are useless and need to get the fuck out of the way. Leave.

 

[Maxim726X]

This "picking your battles" thing is so stupid. Every Trump pick is getting in regardless if every Democrat votes no or not. With Mattis and Kelly I can understand voting them in, since they're basically the only decent picks, but nobody should be voting in fucks like Pompeo.

The best thing the Democrats can do in this situation is be the party of no and stand up against everything Trump does. The GOP did it and it got them total control of the country but the Democrats are too cowardly to do the same.

.

When will they fucking learn... Want to get out the disinterested millennials? Be vocally opposed to everything he does.

 

[Blader]

More effective to focus on Tillerson? You focus on everything and fight tooth and nail against your opposition in times like this. That's what the GOP did against Obama for 8 years. They never were like "Well, this bill is small time, let it pass for PR, we'll focus on the next one." By cooperating with Trumps administration in anyway, you help normalize it. If that happens, we have truly lost. This is the time above all others where the democrats need to kick and scream at every turn, regardless of how hopeless it is.

Well, you can't really "focus on everything." That's the opposite of how focusing works.

And the GOP actually did let bills pass, even when they were in majority control of one or both chambers of Congress. Their level of obstruction was absurd and historic, but it was never literally block every single thing put forth by Obama/Dems. They did not stop Obama's cabinet nominees (at least in 09), they did not stop Obama's two SCOTUS appointments. And particularly in those first two years, where they were in the position that the Dems are now, the GOP knew their power was in concentrating on the big public legislative debates (stimulus, ACA), not every single decision or appointment that Obama was making.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

More effective to focus on Tillerson? You focus on everything and fight tooth and nail against your opposition in times like this. That's what the GOP did against Obama for 8 years. They never were like "Well, this bill is small time, let it pass for PR, we'll focus on the next one." By cooperating with Trumps administration in anyway, you help normalize it. If that happens, we have truly lost. This is the time above all others where the democrats need to kick and scream at every turn, regardless of how hopeless it is.

Early in Obama's term, they absolutely voted for many of his cabinet nominees because a president should be allowed to have their cabinet. They also did this because they had no real power in the Senate at that time, just like the Democrats now don't have any power.

Pick a fight with a few of the really bad ones, like Tillerson and DeVos.

Do people want Trump to just not have a cabinet for the entirety of his term? That's not a fight Democrats can win.

 

[faisal233]

The tactical argument for not going out of their way to cast pointless "no" votes on relatively unimportant things strikes me as pretty reasonable, really.

Like, when the Republicans had control of Congress and were opposing Obama on absolutely everything, their approval tanked. Everyone understood to some degree that the Republicans were uninterested in working together with Obama for the good of the country. They were willing to take this hit because by actually preventing Obama from getting anything done they made the government look ineffective and made the country worse off, and that reflects poorly on the party of the president in the eyes of many voters.

Before the Republicans controlled Congress, they had a different strategy. This one was about pretending to be participating in good faith while moving goalposts and sadly finding fault with finalized plans, only choosing a small number of things to call out as unacceptable. The passage of the ACA was dragged out for over a year even though Democrats could have just rammed something through. There was lots of bipartisan negotiation. And the end result is that Republicans "found" the final bill totally unacceptable and it was enormously unpopular, and the general perception is that it was rammed "down our throats".

The argument on the other side seems to be that Democratic voters demand lots of pointless signalling of opposition in order to feel like showing up for elections. And maybe that's true. But it seems to me that if the real concern is about voters perceiving Democrats as spineless even when nothing they're doing so far indicates genuine spinelessness, it's just making the problem worse to, say, title a thread about it this way.

I'm glad someone finally said it. Republicans weren't some mythical opposition that stopped everything when they didn't either houses of congress. They bided their time, pretended to try and work with Obama and waited till they gained power. Then tried to fuck over obama for 6 years.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Exactly, and that's an even worse perspective. That means every single Democrat could have voted against in solidarity, but they didn't. They rolled over and threw up their hands. It's so fucking stupid. Even if it doesn't make actual change and is just symbolic, that's fine. Symbols are important. People rally behind symbols.

Exactly!

The reason that Trump was allowed to win the US elections and why Bernie, who according to many had no chance of gaining any traction was because they don’t come across like your ‘typical’ politician.

Now lets break that down, what was their main argument? Current elected officials are either corrupt or unwilling to fight for the people that they work for and instead ‘work within the (perceived corrupt) system’. Now of course with Trump this was complete bollocks as he was just looking to benefit himself and his corporate cronies but Bernie managed to inspire millions of people to join his cause. He may have lost to Hilary but he had everything against him yet still got as far as he did and as far as I have seen is the most visible person still fighting against Trump et al.

What people need is for a party that openly state what is wrong with the other party, call them out on bullshit and fight with every breath they have to oppose abhorrent laws and actions proposed/taken by the opposition. Polls have shown that (especially in America) the majority of people agree on most policies and that its just the rhetoric and spin/lies that cause the division. We need politicians who will openly call out Nazi’s and fascists instead of calling them by polished, media friendly terms like Alt-Right or simply dismissing their abhorrent opinions as ‘a difference in political opinion’.

People respond to this, people can get behind someone who clearly wants to fight for you and is honest and doesn’t put their political speak onto a situation. Don’t worry about ‘optics’ and come out and say “You are a liar!” or “You support fascist ideals”.

If you sugar coat things and try to place nice with conservative politicians all you do is normalise their opinions and allow them to sow hatred and misinformation.

Of course the problem is that many politicians are backed by corporate and private interests and as such wont go out as far as they need to on the important issues. We need engaging, honest and down to earth people to fight the good fight.

This all ties into the rules too, the argument that playing the enemy at their own game will mean you lose is fucking ridiculous since the left have already lost and lost pretty much as badly as you can with no hope in sight of changing that dfor at least the next 5-10 years on the current path. The people who will vote R or Tory no matter what are lost causes when it comes to politicking so don’t even worry about this idea that blocking rulings etc. will cause negative opinions on the left because the people who would think that ARE GOING TO THINK THAT ANYWAY, regardless of facts. You have Obama, as far as im aware, using the least amount of executive orders as any president yet if you believe Fox news and repubs he has been doing it worse than Trump currently is. If they are going to think the worse of you anyway, fuck them.

Use what power you have to prevent supposedly modern and progressive nations losing everything that has been fought for over the last 50-100 years. Use what power you have to ghet in and change everything you possible can while being clear why you are doing it and things can get better long term.

 

[jakonovski]

Why are you guys cargo culting the Republican anti-Obama strategy in the hopes of it bearing results? You gotta strike when the iron is hot and anti-Trump sentiment is hot. Stoke it and keep it going with endless repetition, because repetition is truth.

 

[tuxfool]

The tactical argument for not going out of their way to cast pointless "no" votes on relatively unimportant things strikes me as pretty reasonable, really.

Like, when the Republicans had control of Congress and were opposing Obama on absolutely everything, their approval tanked. Everyone understood to some degree that the Republicans were uninterested in working together with Obama for the good of the country. They were willing to take this hit because by actually preventing Obama from getting anything done they made the government look ineffective and made the country worse off, and that reflects poorly on the party of the president in the eyes of many voters.

Before the Republicans controlled Congress, they had a different strategy. This one was about pretending to be participating in good faith while moving goalposts and sadly finding fault with finalized plans, only choosing a small number of things to call out as unacceptable. The passage of the ACA was dragged out for over a year even though Democrats could have just rammed something through. There was lots of bipartisan negotiation. And the end result is that Republicans "found" the final bill totally unacceptable and it was enormously unpopular, and the general perception is that it was rammed "down our throats".

The argument on the other side seems to be that Democratic voters demand lots of pointless signalling of opposition in order to feel like showing up for elections. And maybe that's true. But it seems to me that if the real concern is about voters perceiving Democrats as spineless even when nothing they're doing so far indicates genuine spinelessness, it's just making the problem worse to, say, title a thread about it this way.

This needs to be quoted again. I'm not sure what people expect out of vapid signalling, it changes nothing for the time being. In a year's time people will forget all about this because there are more important things on the horizon, by which they will be measured. I mean, none of the Republicans are whining that Republicans in congress originally voted in his cabinet nominations.

 

[sugarhigh4242]

Most other countries have an actual Worker's party that represents the interests of working people vs capital. We don't have that in the US. The Democratic party is the party of Wall St, Silicon Valley and Health Insurance companies.

I'm sympathetic to good progressives who want to "take over the party", but there are corporatist gatekeepers who will make that extraordinarily difficult, and at any rate it could flip back at any time. At the city level, Democratic officials will encourage you to run for ward leader or city committee. But if you're a local business owner, you jump to the head of the line and can get right onto city council.

I strongly advocate building independent organizations with the goal of an actual Worker's Party. Not only would that be a seachange accomplishment in itself, but through the process of building it, it would put intense pressure on Democrats to clean up their act.

Our neoliberal era which started with Reagan was a direct response to the decline of the Soviet Union. I'm totally opposed to Stalinism, but the fact is that the Capitalist west had to compete with that alternative system. There was pressure to show that Capitalism delivered a better, free-er way of life. Between that external pressure, and internal pressure from militant labor unions and Socialist parties, capital was forced to make significant concessions. This is when we start to see universal healthcare programs, pensions, unemployment compensation, public education, civilian infrastructure spending, etc. As soon as the Berlin wall fell, capitalists sought to roll back the European welfare state and post-New Deal social programs. It was Bill Clinton who ended "Welfare as we know it" and deregulated the Wall st investment banks.

The lesson we need to learn is that capitalism (and its representatives in governemnt) won't do anything for the people without being forced. It's up to us to build organizations that can force it.

 

[gutterboy44]

This talk of approval raitings is just more democrat nonsense. Another meaningless, symbolic "moral victory". Everyone was fucking certain 2016 would be the begining of the end for the GOP. They may never win the presidency again! Look how bad their approval ratings are, look at the tension between GOP leaders and Trump. OMG, this is the massive Dem swing we have been waiting for. Wrong. No one gave a fuck about approval ratings and they showed up to vote even more GOP than before. Opposing Obama at every turn just solidified their base. How can you even say for a second the GOP tactics of being obstructionist failed when they have near complete control of our country at various levels?

Are people still going to be talking about GOP failed approval ratings when SCOTUS is stacked to approve of every nightmare fuel far right idea about civil rights and women's rights? This same insistence that the political landscape norms must still be respected and that it all works out in the long run for Dems is like asking for a fucking encore from the band going down with the ship. The second Dems are held accountable by their base to act on the current political will, motivations and demands, the better things will get. The want to oppose Trump right now is not a bargaining chip for some minor Dem power deal 3 years from now. This is the same old dance that has left them powerless. They have zero faith in their base showing up to vote, and I get that. Dems are awful at showing up at polls. It is time to try something new. Maybe sticking to liberal ideals and doubling down on them is a good starting point. This centrist shit is a losing game for the left and a guaranteed success for the right. The left tried moving right and it lost them everything. Time to go hard left and energize your base and the massive wave of young voters who don't give two shits about the established way of doing things. They want change now and they want leaders who vocalize, vote, and stand for that need at every turn. It is a politician's job to cater to us, not the other way around.

edit: More than anything I want to see a third party formed from this. I have little faith that the Dems can turn this ship around. I have no allegiance to their party, they are just the only foil to republicans right now.

 

[studyguy]

I can't believe this many people were pinning hopes on the committee rejecting when Corker was threatening to push Tillerson through for instance with or without the committee.

Get real folks the cabinet vote was never going to block much as all.

 

[bachikarn]

This is not the time for political math. They only "get approved anyway" if everyone goes into it with that same mentality. GOP has been obstructionist as hell for the past 8 years, it's time to repay the favor. I don't care if people think it's petty.

They also had a majority for a large part of those 8 years, no?