That's true but the people there are still the fucking worst of the worst.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Torment: Tides of Numenera stretch goals being cut/reduced due to dev issues
- Thread starter Krakn3Dfx
- Start date
That's true but the people there are still the fucking worst of the worst.
Well, that's what RPG Codex is for.
Well, that and hate-playing RPG's because everyone knows the last great RPG was released in 1999, but we gotta play new RPG's to tell everyone how much it sucks in comparison to the 90's.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
On one hand, I feel that this kind of thing happens among Kickstarters, no matter how prolific they might be.
But on the other hand, it's still kind of shitty to release this info so late, and to have the # of companions reduced/still in be super vague.
But on the other hand, it's still kind of shitty to release this info so late, and to have the # of companions reduced/still in be super vague.
I'm guessing as a serious gameplay mechanic they're best for games with a set up like Suikoden's, where a key gameplay element is running around and recruiting people to face off against a large organized force. For something that's mostly about being a band of adventurers it can probably get superfluous.
But I need to get back into Pillars of Eternity, I barely started due to it hitting when everything went to shit and the laptop I could use played it poorly and would actively crash going into the first town so it was basically unplayable.
There's probably better examples given the more specialized focus there. Find some dumb thing that only focuses on social issues or whatever.
DerekOfTheDykes
Member
This should be in the OP.
I think people tend to forget that backing products is 1) A risky proposition you are taking based on promises and bullet points a company makes and 2) Does not make you entitled to just expect everything that is promised.
I am on the side that, this is on you and if you are not happy do not pay for Kickstart. Also, Making games is hard, so of course there are probabilities for contents to be shortened due to difficulties.
I am on the side that, this is on you and if you are not happy do not pay for Kickstart. Also, Making games is hard, so of course there are probabilities for contents to be shortened due to difficulties.
But... it's not like the overall scope of the game is seriously diminished, they just made a design decision of expanding some stuff at the expense of a couple of things. It's not like they are now releasing half the game, more like quality over quantity in the case of the companion stuff and just switching the roles of two locations, so they still made a big second hub, it's just not the one they originally intented to.
Nothing horrible about that. That's fairly normal to game development and, really, any creative endeavours, and the negativity is just pathetic, childish hyperbole.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
True, but it is also true that with a normal publisher (the people finding on kickstarter in this case) - developer relationship there is a concept that is known for a feature promised to a publisher: missing milestone payment
.Kickstarter in a way is more favourable to developers which receive money upfront and the gamers do not get a portion of profits, they are not really investing (see Oculus second private hidden round of investments and those investors being able to profit off the sale to Facebook unlike the backers).
Twisting basic information into controversy while having a bigoted community is comparable, I think. But you're right.
This. I'm a backer on this, do not care about the changes as long as the overall game is good. Development is complicated, things change, stuff happens, don't get involved if you can't handle that. Kickstarting a game is basically throwing your money in a hole and hoping a game pops out of it a few years later. It's a donation and you are owed exactly nothing. That's the risk of it. Choose wisely, learn from your mistakes and the mistakes of others (shout out to my fellow Mighty No. 9 backers).
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I understand and agree fundamentally with some of what you are saying... but a donation? It surely it is not and should not be a donation of money expecting nothing back
.Assuming they knew any of this was the case at an earlier stage.
I understand and agree fundamentally with what you are saying... but a donation? It surely it is not and should it be a donation of money expecting nothing back
It surely is. It's exactly that, in fact. Obviously a customer/creator mentality does inevitably develop over the course of most projects but the letter of the Kickstarter law is that you are donating money in the hopes that you will receive a product you want as a result. Nothing is guaranteed, and while Kickstarter obviously polices scams, the correct mentality to have is that you're basically kissing that money goodbye and hoping what comes back is something you like. Otherwise just wait until whatever it is comes out and reviews/community impressions are available and you can make an informed purchase. It's really that simple.
Johannsson
Member
So your saying they couldn't afford to bring it too switch.
It's more like a gamble.I understand and agree fundamentally with some of what you are saying... but a donation? It surely it is not and should not be a donation of money expecting nothing back
There is a decent that chance that you don't get anything in return and an probably even higher chance that you don't like what you get.
Yeah, it's not a donation, it's basically a form of patronage. You give financial aid to creative types (+ nerds who do the programming, though I guess they have to be creative in their own wayI understand and agree fundamentally with some of what you are saying... but a donation? It surely it is not and should not be a donation of money expecting nothing back
) to help them make some project a reality and hopefully you can enjoy the fruits of their labour after shit is done.This.
It really appears to me like people are chomping at the bit to shoot the messenger here over actually talking about what went wrong. Disappointing.
I've backed this (at a high level) and lots of other Kickstarters, and was happy with the vast majority of them.
Really, if you choose to not take the most charitable view for inXile, what appears to be happening is this:
- features that were explicitly and specifically promised were cut or significantly reduced in focus
- they did not pro-actively inform their backers of these things once they were certain, but rather waited until specifically questioned about them as a result of data-mining
Many other companies using crowdfunding have dealt with similar issues much more graciously (e.g. Harebrained Schemes, Larian and Obsidian to name some I noticed).
I'm not saying that I'm deeply concerned about the game or that I wouldn't have backed it under these preconditions, but I don't see why we should absolve inXile of the need to actually communicate with their backers as long as they are using crowdfunding. ("Communicate" as in more than just good news, if there are news that might not be that great)
Deathknell
Member
As an italian backer i'm pretty mad to be honest..
You don't cut off a localization which was included from the beginning at this stage.
You don't cut off a localization which was included from the beginning at this stage.
Haven't bothered to look deeper, but is this possibly where the main source of complaints are? My main memory is Divinity's final stretch goal not making it, but I don't remember complaints being notable about it (I'm sure they were there, but I don't remember it being notable).
Whoa! What!? This actually sounds worse. I could understand if there are plans to get to that point even if it may be after release. Is that still in the plans?
Lanrutcon
Member
You sure showed them. Very classy.
It's certainly the main source of my discontent at the situation. Larian proactively made very clear, significantly before the release date of the game, that they were going to miss that goal, and why.
People did complain at that point, but personally I could appreciate the development realities of it. I could also do so here, but learning about it through data mining is a bit disappointing.
It will never cease to be baffling and hilarious each time one of these kickstarter situations pops up, and people get all entitled about how they aren't given what was promised, like this is the first time it's ever happened on kickstarter.
Rule one: if you can't deal with the potential pitfalls of a kickstarter project, don't donate. Just wait for release.
Edit: to be clear, there is certainly something to be said for better communication, and that's on them. But I just have little sympathy for something like this. I backed Mighty Number 9, and no amount of communication would have made that shitty pill go down easier. I'm a jilted lover with kickstarter games.
Rule one: if you can't deal with the potential pitfalls of a kickstarter project, don't donate. Just wait for release.
Edit: to be clear, there is certainly something to be said for better communication, and that's on them. But I just have little sympathy for something like this. I backed Mighty Number 9, and no amount of communication would have made that shitty pill go down easier. I'm a jilted lover with kickstarter games.
They made NWN 2, which has one of the best strongholds in a CRPG. Its clearly a budget/time thing. It either needs to be a central focus or you have to have lots of cash to throw towards it.
Is it so incredibly hard to access a situation and accept that nobody is perfect? I guess people prefer a black and white outlook to the terribly grey reality around them, but still.
inXile has never seemed to me like a terribly professional setup. How else would they have created something so beautiful, but chaotic (in every respect, really) as Wasteland 2? Even compared with other crowdfunded devs of similar size they seem less organized. Adds to their charm, but also shows how they (mis)handle certain aspect of their games. I can like them for what they can do, without having to glorify them.
Nor do I have to lash out so hard against a site with questionable culture and atmosphere, when the core of what their pointing out is true, if overblown.
inXile has never seemed to me like a terribly professional setup. How else would they have created something so beautiful, but chaotic (in every respect, really) as Wasteland 2? Even compared with other crowdfunded devs of similar size they seem less organized. Adds to their charm, but also shows how they (mis)handle certain aspect of their games. I can like them for what they can do, without having to glorify them.
Well, if I could get one wish from them, then it would be to fire their entire UI department.
Context matters with these sorts of things. Some companions were cut but that was due to them not wanting to sacrifice quality over quantity. A location has been made smaller but only because another got more attention/time to be fleshed out.
If they were just "so we are cutting these companions because lol" and "this location won't be all the heavily in the game" without anything replacing those (depth, in case of companions, and another location getting more focus in case of the one that isn't as big of a part of the game as originally planned), then there would be something worth complaining about as far as content changes goes. As is, this IS very normal to any content creation that goes from initial plans to completion. so I don't see all that much to fuss about.
This is a bit more of a valid complaint. Communication is appreciated, though even then I think the creators should be free to make the game they best see fit during the development of the game without the need to communicate everything to backers, which sometimes includes choices like focusing on fewer characters than originally planned, so as far as these kinds of shifts in focus on particular features/content goes and as long as they don't cut some features completely (like, making this a single character game without any companions), I still wouldn't get my torches & pitchforks ready over changes like these. I do think it's news-worthy, but putting such a hugely negative spin on it is a bit hyperbolic.
Coffee Dog
Banned
I get that not everything has to communicated to backers, but these were special things that people donated extra for and the fanbase had to discover for themselves they weren't in the game mere weeks before launch.
Like, come on. If the supposed improvements and alterations are anything significant, these decisions were made many months ago. Why were they going to let the game launch without letting the fans know of this large restructuring of one of the biggest parts of the game (party members)?
Like, come on. If the supposed improvements and alterations are anything significant, these decisions were made many months ago. Why were they going to let the game launch without letting the fans know of this large restructuring of one of the biggest parts of the game (party members)?
Pyros_Eien
Member
I believe I read somewhere else that they do offer refunds for this particular case, since this is actually a real issue.
Cutting/reworking content is kinda expect in video games, and while they probably should have mentionned it back when they did it, which was probably several months ago, it just happens.
Cutting a localization is a bit more of a problem if people wanted specifically a localized version, it's a bit like cutting a platform version. Localization is quite often a buy/no buy factor for a lot of people(although it's more generally original japanese audio/dub only discussions).
Fear, probably.
Communication seems to be the biggest issue here, if these features had been cut a while back the devs should have been upfront about it.
I largely agree with your stance but I'm sure you could have worded it in a less crass and offensive way than 'actual social cripples'. Come on now.
Maybe the investors should be kept up to date with changes in content/scope, then.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if they announced it back then, reaction would have been exactly the same, only difference being the reaction would have happened back then. Then they would have had to deal with an untold number of months worth of negative community sentiment.
People say they want more communication (which might be true to a degree), but I refuse to believe the response would have been "dang that sucks, but thanks for telling us at least." They were in a pretty lose-lose situation.
And simply saying "delay the game" is such incredibly ignorant. Every week you delay the game is another week you have a lose money paying staff, and refuse income by not having a game for sale. Delays are great in theory, but they're expensive as fuck.
Heckler456
Banned
You're not really investing either. You back a project without any real assurances that it'll be completed. Well, beyond how it will influence a creator's reputation, anyway.
Moff
Member
I will not back an inexile kickstarter again. They also cut languages and created new retail boxes with new exciting items not included in the physical backer tiers and also cost less. Its not a disaster and the game might still be good, but I don't see why I should back a game by inexile ever again.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Well, so long as they keep the PS4 stretch goal (my laptop won't run Torment), I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they know what they're doing. W2 was remarkable, so if Torment is even half as good as that, I'll be a happy bunny.
I think they could've updated/engaged backers about this a little sooner. Equally, backers should be a little more understanding of the trials and tribulations of both game development and kickstarters. Shit happens.
I think they could've updated/engaged backers about this a little sooner. Equally, backers should be a little more understanding of the trials and tribulations of both game development and kickstarters. Shit happens.
Which stretch goal was this? Did a quick search but wasn't sure, was it henchmen becoming companions?
I'm not that bothered with the changes, but the lack of comunication is not something I'd expect from a company that talked shit about publishers on every possible occasion...until they got a publisher, of course.
They can say all they want about the remaining companions being more complex or the Bloom being the second city, but if they're so confident in the changes then why not tell the backers?
Even Project Fucking Phoenix told their backers things were going to shit.
They can say all they want about the remaining companions being more complex or the Bloom being the second city, but if they're so confident in the changes then why not tell the backers?
Even Project Fucking Phoenix told their backers things were going to shit.
Plumpbiscuit
Member
Brian Fargo isn't the same as he use to be.... his recent projects have all had faults or problems in them that are more glaring than other similar games. Especially from his reputation I expect so much better... I don't even know what the hell is happening with Bard's Tale IV anymore and Wasteland 3...? That was barely a project when it went through Fig.
Sorry Fargo, this was the last straw for you and inXile, I'm done backing you now, I'm just going to buy your games post-release.
Sorry Fargo, this was the last straw for you and inXile, I'm done backing you now, I'm just going to buy your games post-release.
PS4 was not a stretch goal, it was something InXile decided to do "on the side" with their own money...
Those bastards!
The last news from them from Bard's Tale IV on the game's official website is from a month ago. Just because you're too lazy to follow a game's development doesn't mean they aren't updating people about the game. Blame yourself about that more than Fargo & co.
Also, what happened is that they are working with their own, more limited funds. That often means they have to make some compromises. Sometimes it can be just on the quality of character models, animations & such, sometimes it cuts to the amount/quality of content otherwise.
Messofanego
Banned
HahaThis seems like a crazy drama queen meltdown (typical for RPGCodex, which is an awful site filled with terrible, miserable people) about minor tweaks during development, and the title is completely inaccurate to the contents of the post.
Two stretch goals are mentioned:
- One is about companions. Their response was that they ended up making fewer companions but giving them more to do.
- One is about an area ("the Oasis"). Their response is that the area is in the game, but when they were developing, they took a minor area ("the Bloom") and made it a major area, filling the original role of the Oasis, and so the Oasis is smaller as a result.
- One is about an encyclopedia of game lore, which they are still releasing.
The conclusion the author draws from these design decisions is:
RPGCodex: "inXile have had significant issues with the management of Torment's development. There's no telling which of the game's many other stretch goals they may have also backed out of. I would strongly recommend that they publish a Kickstarter update clarifying this matter. People paid money for these."
RPGCodex are a bunch of cynics, innit?
You mean "social cripples"?
