If this many journalists have this issue you can be sure Nintendo engineers know about it unless they done no QA of launch units.
What's more worrying is that they haven't come out and said it's gonna be fixed during a update.
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Gamexplain Explains the Joy-Con Desyncing Problem
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
What's more worrying is that they haven't come out and said it's gonna be fixed during a update.
is it even possible to dial down bluetooth? Because someone said with Bluetooth 3.0 it's not really possible.
range and susceptibility to interference are two different things.
The small size of the joycons certainly means that - depending on hand sizes - people will certainly cradle / cover the controller much more tightly than a wiimote, for example.
I'm optimistic / hopeful that Nintendo will find a way to address this issue because - no matter how 'overblown' it is. This is not a new iPhone, they're not Apple - this is not millions of people purposefully gripping their phones in areas with already shitty cell coverage to make signal bars go down - it's reviewers saying "i had to use a different controller to play the game in my regular ass living room environment".
They need all the momentum they can get.
uhm, that's in handheld mode, handheld mode doesn't have issues afaik.
Man this sucks if its as bad as it sounds. There were so many hands on events and we even saw hours of Nintendo Treehouse playing the Switch live. Prior to today there had been no indication of a major issue like this and now we don't even know if the Switch can reliably deliver on playing in tv mode with the joycons sitting at your couch.
We have video evidence that it is possible. When the Joycons are connected to the charging grip, they yield a range that is 46% better than when by themselves. This indicates when they're by themselves, they're transmitting at a far lower power level.
NoPiece
Member
It is absolutely possible - besides increased speed, the biggest part of Bluetooth 3.0 was enhanced power control. Basically trying to use the least amount of power to maintain a connection in order to preserve battery.
Though it could just be that when they are in the grip, the hand position is less blocking. When you have them separated, it seems like you are more likely to wrap your hands around them.
Link? Cause that is the best news I've heard regarding this debacle.
I still can't believe that such a huge flaw was neglected at Nintendo. I hope, hope that it is just a software update away from fixing it.
Let's be honest, this isn't the only thing we don't know, information on a lot of stuff is just completely missing at this point.
Hopefully they can fix it with an update, otherwise they're in deep trouble if regular players start having these issues in their standard living space.
No one needs 20 hours of Joy Con life. Give them 10 and call it a day if that means stronger signal that doesn't easily break/cause considerable latency.
Or give them an option for either. Ideally, it would default to low-power bluetooth when the main unit isn't docked, but go full-power when it is.
Or give them an option for either. Ideally, it would default to low-power bluetooth when the main unit isn't docked, but go full-power when it is.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Wow. A wireless controller that needs direct line of sight to function properly is not acceptable. The signal strength in this thing must be incredibly weak. I wonder if that's something they can crank up through a firmware update (at the expense of battery life), or if we're gonna have a massive desyncgate with thousands and thousands of people needing their controllers replaced. I for one will not accept that I have to "hold it right" and live with it. No way in hell.
Absolutely. If they can fix this through software, go ahead. My DS4 lasts like 3-4 hours, so I'm used to it...
Absolutely. If they can fix this through software, go ahead. My DS4 lasts like 3-4 hours, so I'm used to it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmRtEdA5OKI&feature=player_embedded
The other reports from Kotaku, Polygon etc indicate that using them in the standard grip makes no difference, connection problems persist. But you are right, to control for variables testing using the standard grip vs the charging grip should be done, however I'm fairly confident this is merely an issue of transmit power, and that while undocked it is dialed way down, or a bug is preventing it from dialing up when required.
panda-zebra
Banned
Compare their test to the video where link is being moved around. There are really subtle dropouts that their test wouldn't show as readily. Theirs is basically a test of the absolute range limit, rather than finding a point at which the signal is no longer allowing for 1:1 actions and results.
Just wondering, would being closer to the console clear up physical interference? I saw plenty of people covering the entire joy-con with their hands at events with no mention of these desyncing problems.
Afaik there are also low power protocols which basically reduce the frequency of sending data. Either way, it could be a lot of things like using a BT channel that interferes with other BT stuff or WiFi or it could be simply a bug but I'm almost certain it can be fixed software wise unless the JoyCons were designed to be not patchable or they can for some reason only use a low power protocol. (Which I doubt)
It seemingly confirms different transmission levels (though they should have tested each method at least a few times), but it doesn't tell us whether that is the issue or not. In fact, I'd say it makes it more complicated. The guy was standing 20 feet away or maybe even more before the controllers stopped responding. Yet we have reports of people's controllers not responding at home from less than 10 feet from their TV.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I guess. And only #4 is acceptable.
Dark Cloud
Member
I don't care if the joy con batteries have to be less than 20 hours to have this fixed. 15 hours would be great.
Oh, that video is reassuring but isn't proof of anything. A reason for better charging grip results could be because of the way the joy cons are being held. There is no indication that the Joy Cons emit stronger signals when attached to the charging grip.
EDIT:
This needs to be done. It's going to answer quite a bit.
This is also very true. But you'd think for a controller to be functional even 15 steps away from the console that it shouldn't have functioning 100% in a living room. I'm pretty sure a lot of guys have multiple wifi and bluetooth signals in their homes. Yet no controller ever had this problem, not even the Wiimote.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I've heard nothing about 2, but since it seems to be related to how you hold it, I guess it's probably the case. I think 4 is more likely than 3.
SinCityAssassin
Member
I sort of don't expect JP to say anything yet this week. The chances of NoA saying something in the late morning/afternoon is also slim. Likely they want to tailor a message by monday at the earliest.
Yes, closer proximity definitely improves response according to most accounts.
panda-zebra
Banned
There's a difference between not responding completely and actions becoming inaccurate/erratic.
That's the worrying part. If it was an easy firmware problem i don't see why they don't tackle it head on to stop the reporting of this.
Sure. It all depends on the amount of signal you start with, what you attenuate or lose and the sensitivity of the receiving chip.
Fair enough. The test in the video was not nearly comprehensive enough, unfortunately. We don't know WHEN/if there were inaccurate/erratic moments for it, in terms of distance.
well, certainly - you're not "blocking" the signal, you're weakening it. If you're close enough to the console, even a weak signal should keep a more or less steady connection.
Nintendo being slow to respond aint exactly new.
show me your skeleton
Member
yeah this feels standard behaviour for nintendo.
Cob32
Member
Probably waiting for reggie to come up with some of his incredible pr spin.
I expect something today (24th,) since it will have been one day for them to evaluate the situation and form a plan of action.
If not, well then maybe we will be moving our couches. Not me since I play at a computer 2 feet in front of me... but most people.
Gotcha. Thank you all who replied.
Considering it's not a 1-2 console problem they should have known about this during QA and be prepared for it but i guess you're right.
Dark Cloud
Member
Yep. If you know Nintendo you know how they are and act. This is nothing new.
Until they know what the actual issue is and know how to correct it they really shouldn't say anything other than they are aware and are looking into it.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
How low is the bar or how high is our desperation to just be allowed to give them money to play Zelda at launch?
5) Minimize the distance between Joy-con and Switch console to compensate for any weak signals.
I'm actually a bit relieved after learning what the problem was and how to "recreate" it. I was worried about it having something to do the way the sync button sits against the rails of the Switch, grip, or joy-con strap(this was before they told us which controller mode/play-style was experiencing the problems). It shouldn't be too hard to work around this issue now that I'll be mindful of it.
Got to wonder how many people play further away from their consoles than the 6-10 feet where the problems seemed to exist? Not saying this is not an issue, but I have to believe this problem will be experienced by a minority of people.
Considering this wasn't a problem at all during the preview events, I would be surprised if there isn't already a fix with the Day One update. Sounds like some of you expected Nintendo to open every single box manually and update every console by hand. Relax.
M_A_C
Member
Since I have nothing better to do I tried to look into any FCC filings for the Joy-Cons. If HAC-015 (https://fccid.io/BKEHAC015) is the left Joy-Con, which seems likely, then we already have some information about the maximum output power.
This suggests the output power is around 3-4 dBm, which is in-line with what you would expect from a Bluetooth Class2 device (maximum output power of 4dBm). While Bluetooth technically allows up to 20dBm output power for Class1 devices, most chips today will allow up to 10dBm output power. This is informally known as Class1.5 and is common since FCC does not require SAR testing for any devices with an output power below 10dBm.
The good news is then that Nintendo will most likely be able to increase the output power by around 6dB, which should in theory give around twice the current range. This will also not negatively affect the Battery life significantly, as the chip will dynamically change the output power as required. So the additional power will only be used when it otherwise would lose the connection.
The bad news is that the Joy-Cons will have to be re-certified, which means that Nintendo will likely not be able to have this done as a day-one firmware update unless they already caught this issue ahead of time and are in the process of fixing it already. (They will also likely have to measure SAR as well even if they are below the 10dBm limit, since Canada recently lowered the limit where you do not have to measure SAR to 6dBm).
The thing that surprises me however is that 4dBm should absolutely be enough power for the type of environments shown in the video above. Deliberately covering the entire device with both hands will probably always be a problem. The antenna is probably quite narrowband so doing that will likely detune it as well causing even more losses than what you get anyway from the absorption in the hands. But simply placing the device behind the back and breaking line-of-sight? When you are indoors and only a few meters away from the main console, this should absolutely not be a problem. So unless there is something really strange going on with their antennas (like if they didn't account for the detuning that might happen when you hold the device normally) then it might actually be possible that the real Joy-Cons are using lower power than they are certified for, either due to a firmware bug or because someone though it would increase battery life (it really shouldn't). In that case, it would be fairly simple to issue a new firmware to increase the power.
This suggests the output power is around 3-4 dBm, which is in-line with what you would expect from a Bluetooth Class2 device (maximum output power of 4dBm). While Bluetooth technically allows up to 20dBm output power for Class1 devices, most chips today will allow up to 10dBm output power. This is informally known as Class1.5 and is common since FCC does not require SAR testing for any devices with an output power below 10dBm.
The good news is then that Nintendo will most likely be able to increase the output power by around 6dB, which should in theory give around twice the current range. This will also not negatively affect the Battery life significantly, as the chip will dynamically change the output power as required. So the additional power will only be used when it otherwise would lose the connection.
The bad news is that the Joy-Cons will have to be re-certified, which means that Nintendo will likely not be able to have this done as a day-one firmware update unless they already caught this issue ahead of time and are in the process of fixing it already. (They will also likely have to measure SAR as well even if they are below the 10dBm limit, since Canada recently lowered the limit where you do not have to measure SAR to 6dBm).
The thing that surprises me however is that 4dBm should absolutely be enough power for the type of environments shown in the video above. Deliberately covering the entire device with both hands will probably always be a problem. The antenna is probably quite narrowband so doing that will likely detune it as well causing even more losses than what you get anyway from the absorption in the hands. But simply placing the device behind the back and breaking line-of-sight? When you are indoors and only a few meters away from the main console, this should absolutely not be a problem. So unless there is something really strange going on with their antennas (like if they didn't account for the detuning that might happen when you hold the device normally) then it might actually be possible that the real Joy-Cons are using lower power than they are certified for, either due to a firmware bug or because someone though it would increase battery life (it really shouldn't). In that case, it would be fairly simple to issue a new firmware to increase the power.
'Problem doesn't occur in controlled environment. Nothing to see here'
Even a 1% failure rate is pretty bad by todays standards (~20k people if they really sell 2 million at launch).
Joelstinton14
Member
That was a good video.
I'm not too worried at the moment. Sadly for Jason his experiences seem to be on the extreme end of this issue and Gamexplain are having to go out of their way to replicate it. Most are reporting they have had 2-3 drops within 20 hours. Still, a little concerning though.
Hopefully a firmware patch will solve this. Considering all the gubbins going on inside the joy cons, i'd be very surprised if they weren't able to be patched.
I'm not too worried at the moment. Sadly for Jason his experiences seem to be on the extreme end of this issue and Gamexplain are having to go out of their way to replicate it. Most are reporting they have had 2-3 drops within 20 hours. Still, a little concerning though.
Hopefully a firmware patch will solve this. Considering all the gubbins going on inside the joy cons, i'd be very surprised if they weren't able to be patched.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Console isn't out yet
Narratives are created super easily.
If they continue to stay silent on it, it will be a lot worse for them than if they said anything.
Unless, of course, they have nothing to say and this caught them off-guard, too. Which is the worst case scenario, because it speaks to a level of incompetence, and a diminished faith that it can be fixed before release, that would get even the most hardcore Nintendo fans currently shaking their fists at my twitter to think twice.
I really want to know why Jason's situation is so bad. Does he have furniture blocking the signal? Are his joycon simply defective? Are his hands disrupting the signal? He said Zelda is straight up unplayable with the joycon grip because of the signal issue. That's scary.