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Jimquisition: Weapon Durability, Fanbase Fragility (Mar. 13th, 2017)

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The only other game I can think of with a similar weapon degradation system is Dead Rising but I don't remember any sort of pushback when it was used then. Personally I think weapon degradation works wonderfully for both games and compliments their other gameplay systems well. What is it about Zelda that has people pushing back against this gameplay mechanic?
 

Nick_C

Member
Well yeah. I think the point of contention is that Jim gave it a 7 out of spite and to invoke controversy, not because it actually deserved that score. Of course, that's impossible to really confirm without Jim saying so outright.

No game deserves a score. No developer is owed anything. Let your work speak for itself.

Do you know how disgusting it is to say that the 7 was given out of spite? Seriously, reflect on that.
 

Plum

Member
Times like these I'm reminded of my favorite Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw quote, made many years ago when describing a similar fanboy outrage:

It's worth remembering that all reviews are subjective personal opinions, and if you personally enjoy the game then they shouldn't really get to you. Unless of course there's a despicable little niggling doubt in the back of your mind, that maybe you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having, which doesn't go away no matter how many times you try to slap it down with the wet flannel of weak excuses.

If you're DDoSing a site because of it, sure, but I honestly doubt that's all your talking about so "times like these" must be referring to people not subjectively agreeing with Jim's opinion and/or calling out the biases they think he holds. Even then the "you hate thing because you agree with it" argument is utter BS; it's the kind of thinking that leads to actually harmful ideas such as "homophobes are actually closet homosexuals" and I generally take no notice of it.
 
I just want to point out that once again someone gets it wrong with Dark Souls when throwing shade on weapon durability. He claims you have to go back to the weapon smith when your weapon is "flashing red" which is a visual indication I never noticed and is also not true. You can either use a common item which repairs all equipped weapons or you can just sit at any bonfire.

Every time someone tries to criticize the game it seems more like they haven't played it or much of it. But it seems like an easy target due to its influence and popularity.

Weapon durability might as well be non-existent in the "Soulsborne" games outside of Dark Souls II on PC before it was patched (as a result of degradation being sped up by the 60 FPS).
 

AoM

Member
Jim revels in the shit he gets and anyone that thinks he didn't intentionally score Zelda low just to get some 'content' along those lines going is a little naive imo. I don't think anyone should be surprised at this point though.

But a 7 isn't low.
 
Wouldn't surprise me. I know a spot where a fire great sword constantly respawns.
Yeah, that's true. Which is another reason why repair systems are completely unnecessary in BOTW, because it's easy to abuse systems like that and take advantage of Blood Moon-respawns and stuff to restock on particular weapons if you really want to. You just gotta learn those systems and spots and how to take advantage of them if that's really what you want to do, but those type of options are there if people want to go that route instead of going with the flow and seeing what happens.
 

guek

Banned
No game deserves a score. No developer is owed anything. Let your work speak for itself.

Do you know how disgusting it is to say that the 7 was given out of spite? Seriously, reflect on that.

Are you saying low scores can't be given out of spite?

btw, keep in mind I'm not accusing Jim of anything other than being a troll, and by that I mean he revels in stoking controversy
 

KAOz

Short bus special
I just want to point out that once again someone gets it wrong with Dark Souls when throwing shade on weapon durability. He claims you have to go back to the weapon smith when your weapon is "flashing red" which is a visual indication I never noticed and is also not true. You can either use a common item which repairs all equipped weapons or you can just sit at any bonfire.

Every time someone tries to criticize the game it seems more like they haven't played it or much of it. But it seems like an easy target due to its influence and popularity.

Think he meant the red X.

And it seemed like he was talking about Dark Souls 1. Durability didn't restore at bonfires then. Only if you had bought the Repair Box in beforehand. Or had Repair Powder. Otherwise you had to take trips to the Smith.

But yes, overall I agree that he left bits out in the comparison.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Limiting the freedom to repair your weapon in a game about freedom and exploration...

how about that

jeez beef the game is about freedom. you leave that plateau and you can do ANYTHING! it's perfect!

except when they limit your freedom. like when it rains and you can't climb shit without having to wait at a fucking fire for the rain to stop. that's just forcing you to get out of your comfort zone, and the game is BETTER for it. learn how to PLAY the game before complaining! it's perfect!
 

joecanada

Member
I think time will tell if BoTW is overhyped or not. He got DDoS'ed over his No Man's Sky review and when all the hoopla died down and the masses realized it was not the game that was promised, he ended up looking reasonable.

The only bad thing I could see happening is just that he forever be associated with 7/10 the way IGN gets known for 8.8.

but there's other outlets gave it a 6....
 

TheMink

Member
My complaint about the weapon durability is that
It opened up a golden opportunity to reward late game with unbreakable weapons that are amazing and just make you feel so incredibly powerful with playing 90% of the game with breakable weapons. But even the Master Sword is limited. And there is nothing even like the Master Sword for shields and bows.

Getting a weapon as a lengthy reward is a bitter prize when you can get plenty of great weapons just around doing stuff, an armor piece is just infinitely more valuable. I'm legitimately excited to get armor it DOES something. I sometimes open those chests in shrines that are just reward shrines and throw away their contents immediately. Greeeat a two handed fire sword neato. CLIMBING GEAR YYYYYAAAAASSSSSS!!!
 

CrazyHorse

Junior Member
the reaction to Jim's review is ridiculous and stupid but I think it's clear he wanted this reaction from it

His reaction to the reaction is stupid. He must understand that when a groundbreaking epic game gets a score that is too low people become suspicious. I like other Zelda games more than BotW but he just takes it too far. Even if he genuienly thinks 7 is a fair score, he shouldn't be surprised at other people's reactions. Imagine if a famous reviewer game Mario World, MGS, Half Life 2, Mario 64 etc a 7? This is akin to that.
 

Plum

Member
but there's other outlets gave it a 6....

None of those posted tweets such as these before they put their reviews up:

FK4bykz.jpg
 

Nick_C

Member
Are you saying low scores can't be given out of spite?

btw, keep in mind I'm not accusing Jim of anything other than being a troll, and by that I mean he revels in stoking controversy

And what would be the point of spite-scoring something?
 

LaNaranja

Member
I agree with Jim's points. It totally sucks that the weapons break so easily. A Fallout like system where you could feed weapons to other weapons to repair them would have been amazing. Let me keep my good weapons if I take care of them.

The game is still really good but that weapon fragility system is poop.
 

guek

Banned
jeez beef the game is about freedom. you leave that plateau and you can do ANYTHING! it's perfect!

except when they limit your freedom. like when it rains and you can't climb shit without having to wait at a fucking fire for the rain to stop. that's just forcing you to get out of your comfort zone, and the game is BETTER for it. learn how to PLAY the game before complaining! it's perfect!
Dude, you seem as upset that people don't find issues with these aspects of the game as the handful of people who lose their shit over a low score.

Do you just need someone to tell you that it's ok not to love everything about this game? It's ok, dude.
 

aBarreras

Member
jeez beef the game is about freedom. you leave that plateau and you can do ANYTHING! it's perfect!

except when they limit your freedom. like when it rains and you can't climb shit without having to wait at a fucking fire for the rain to stop. that's just forcing you to get out of your comfort zone, and the game is BETTER for it. learn how to PLAY the game before complaining! it's perfect!

what the fuck is your problem?
 

Kthulhu

Member
Are you saying low scores can't be given out of spite?

btw, keep in mind I'm not accusing Jim of anything other than being a troll, and by that I mean he revels in stoking controversy

Considering how much he's had to deal with, I doubt it.
 

NotLiquid

Member

Nice job ignoring the rest of that line.

yeah fuck hooks that limit the extent of what you can do with the tools you have in breath of the wild. I agree! so bye bye weapon durability!

there is absolutely nothing about a weapon dexterity system that would make breath of the wild any more rigid or prohibitive than needing certain clothes to explore a cold/hot area in the game. or need
a specific amount of hearts to get the master
sword

oh great a cool looking sword. I can't wait to barely use in fear of it breaking.

You're misrepresenting my point here. What is the benefit to a game like Breath of the Wild to "unlock" being able to hold onto weapons for more longer when the game so easily gives you plenty of weapons to hold onto and it's treated like a universally disposable element? Many of which can end up being better than the ones you have on you?

Your second comparison is also flimsy, you can play just fine without needing any clothing that protects you from heat/cold by cooking elixirs and food that raise your resistance. Even when you don't have the ability to induce it passively, you can still induce it actively, and that's smart design that allows players to bypass issues, mainly because none of it is actively given to you in the sheer abundance that weapons are. The elements that are in Breath of the Wild encourage something of an immediate-if-earned inclusion which I think would be at odds tremendously if beating a dungeon would let you "carry higher tiered weapons" or something like that - which is the main thing I took issue with since that is even more prohibitive than the actual game's systems.

To me the
Master Sword
actually works because for the first time in the game it feels like this coveted constant within the entire series is the one thing of all that actually requires you to prove your progress. It makes it unique and stand out as something far more earned, and it helps that actually getting the thing is a part of the constant forward momentum that mostly has to do with you actually powering yourself up. It turns an overarching goal into something of a shared goal, and allows you to blend your priorities seamlessly.

I dunno, to me there's no elegant solution to any suggested substitute. Being so shifty about avoiding using your weapons just seems alien to me when the game is more than ready to throw a bunch more at you. Like, what're you even saving it for.

jeez beef the game is about freedom. you leave that plateau and you can do ANYTHING! it's perfect!

except when they limit your freedom. like when it rains and you can't climb shit without having to wait at a fucking fire for the rain to stop. that's just forcing you to get out of your comfort zone, and the game is BETTER for it. learn how to PLAY the game before complaining! it's perfect!

But really this to me just seems like you're really bitter people see something in this system that you don't.
 

Volphied

Member
If you're DDoSing a site because of it, sure, but I honestly doubt that's all your talking about so "times like these" must be referring to people not subjectively agreeing with Jim's opinion and/or calling out the biases they think he holds. Even then the "you hate thing because you agree with it" argument is utter BS; it's the kind of thinking that leads to actually harmful ideas such as "homophobes are actually closet homosexuals" and I generally take no notice of it.

You really ought to check which fanbase was getting angry at Yahtzee back then.

It's eerily similar to the current outrage. Yet another example of hype culture making certain gamers react ultra-aggressively to mild criticism.
 

Powwa

Member
I respect Jim quite a lot, he is one of the few big reviewers out there who geniunely likes Dynasty Warriors that alone makes him a badass for me. And the points he makes I mostly agree with but I don't agree with his opinion on this one. I think the mechanic works well with the game, the point of the game isn't about fighting every monster camp you see, you can also have a stealth approach or by pass the monsters all together in a lot of occasions. Not all weapons break after a single fight either (which he mentions during the video) so I don't know how it can be such a big issue for the game, personally it is one of the features I enjoy due to it making you play more strategically.

I still enjoyed and laughed quite some to his video, funny stuff!

Oh before I forget here's one mechanic I don't like about the game,
getting thunderstruck so easily with shitty weather, that's bullshit alright.
 
I'd never watched any of this guy's videos and it is pretty sad that people can't handle someone's opinion about something, but he really is making things seem a lot worse than they are. The dude only shows footage of very early game weak weapons such as travelers weapons and brooms and just generally weak weapons. Also, when you're smashing away at an enemy, hitting their shield and not fighting strategically, obviously your shit is gonna break. The game rewards you for using the environment and your runes to disable and disarm foes so you can then run in and slash away while they're defenseless, thus causing less ware to your weapons. Like many have said, having a hoarder mentality just doesn't work in this game and there's no weapons that aren't abundantly available. The ones that are limited can be crafted, but not so easily that you can just fill up your inventory with them, which would defeat the purpose. Again, like many have said, people are obviously entitled to their opinions, but if you're criticizing something why aren't you able to handle some criticism yourself. Also, if you're getting tilted because some random person who has no effect on your life said some mean things to you in youtube comments, you might need to get your priorities in line.
 

Cyanity

Banned
I understand not seeing the problem, but what's the advantage really? Is a system good because eventually enough hours in it stops being a burden altogether? Shouldn't a system be good only if it brings something positive to the table from the get go?

Again, keep in mind I really do absolutely adore the game, but I just can't understand why people are so upset that some people don't like the durability system.

You can literally turn around and go towards the desert after completing the starting area and pick up 40 resist shields and 45 damage weapons.
 

firelogic

Member
The prevailing thought on why degradation in BotW is good is because it promotes variety and forces you to try out weapons you wouldn't normally use. Well, why not design the enemies so that you need to use the majority of weapon types to succeed? This monster is weak to blunt damage so using a sword will do miniscule damage to its health. This monster is weak to piercing damage so if you don't use a spear, the fight will take 10x longer. Doesn't that promote using a variety of weapons? If the enemies are designed around that, it doesn't matter if you're carrying the ultimate most powerful sword in your inventory. It's not going to do squat against the enemy if its strong against bladed weapons.

You can literally turn around and go towards the desert after completing the starting area and pick up 40 resist shields and 45 damage weapons.

But why do I have to when I have a perfectly good set of weapons/shields on me? It doesn't matter that there's a plethora of gear available to you. The point is some people don't like the rolodex system of switching constantly.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Dude, you seem as upset that people don't find issues with these aspects of the game as the handful of people who lose their shit over a low score.

Do you just need someone to tell you that it's ok not to love everything about this game? It's ok, dude.

I find it annoying when people praise the freedom the game provides (and it's great!), but then act like it's cool when freedom is completely limited in other parts of the game and you are literally forced to do things in a way you don't want to (not so great).
 
Weapon durability might as well be non-existent in the "Soulsborne" games outside of Dark Souls II on PC before it was patched (as a result of degradation being sped up by the 60 FPS).
It's pretty much only relevant when an enemy is particularly hard on melee weapons like Avaa the ice dog in Souls 2, which went with the challenge of that particular environment. Usually is just acid pools or enemies that cover the player in acid, which adds to the menacing quality of the various settings. It's an extremely nuanced game and it's just one minor thing. But it seems like it's getting highlighted in Zelda.
 
My complaint about the weapon durability is that
It opened up a golden opportunity to reward late game with unbreakable weapons that are amazing and just make you feel so incredibly powerful with playing 90% of the game with breakable weapons. But even the Master Sword is limited. And there is nothing even like the Master Sword for shields and bows.

Getting a weapon as a lengthy reward is a bitter prize when you can get plenty of great weapons just around doing stuff, an armor piece is just infinitely more valuable. I'm legitimately excited to get armor it DOES something. I sometimes open those chests in shrines that are just reward shrines and throw away their contents immediately. Greeeat a two handed fire sword neato. CLIMBING GEAR YYYYYAAAAASSSSSS!!!

Most treasure chests are a bummer as a result. Why did I just spend 15 minutes figuring out this optional puzzle for a treasure chest that has a Soldier's Bow in it?
 
And again, bringing up your opinion on the weapon durabilty mechanic is valid, but for christ sakes, make sure you get your other shit right. It makes the review look amateurish.
Agreed. There's legitimate complaints where no alternatives I know of exist or I can see how they're an issue but it does seem like he flat out didn't understand some of the mechanics or simply didn't try alternatives. There's a complete lack of mentioning stealth which happens to be a really good method of conserving weapon durability. If you want to give a game a lower score than fine whatever but at least try to understand the mechanics behind a game before criticizing them.

I remember when gamespot gave skyward sword a lower score and people freaked out about that. I didn't care about the score but what I did care about was that reviewer didn't even know that you aim using the gyro in the controller and not the sensor bar and one of his biggest complaints was the aiming. That was such a huge oversight.
 

Plum

Member
You really ought to check which fanbase was getting angry at Yahtzee back then.

It's eerily similar to the current outrage. Yet another example of hype culture making certain gamers react ultra-aggressively to mild criticism.

It was Nintendo with Smash Bros, and yes this is quite similar. Neither of those refute my point that the "you hate my opinion because you agree with it" is not a good argument.
 
The only other game I can think of with a similar weapon degradation system is Dead Rising but I don't remember any sort of pushback when it was used then. Personally I think weapon degradation works wonderfully for both games and compliments their other gameplay systems well. What is it about Zelda that has people pushing back against this gameplay mechanic?
People come for the King, always.
 

Trickster

Member
Should he have lied and gave it a 10/10?

He should of course give it the score he thinks it deserve. I'm sure he felt that was a 7 in this case.

maybe my post was not quite entirely relevant.

I'm just saying that the sad reality is that if you score a mainline zelda something like a 7, you should 100% expect all the sad fanatics to make you their target. And I do think that Jim was aware of that.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Zelda fanatics rabidly defend any decision the devs make.

If this was the exact opposite scenario, where Nintendo chose to have no durability system and a small subset of players were arguing that it was unbalanced and too easy, Zelda fanatics would be going just as crazy over those comments.

They'd say that durability systems are always shitty, that acquiring better gear has always been part of Zelda, that such a system would kill exploration, and they'd scoff at the idea that the almighty Master Sword should have a cooldown time.

This is because, to many people, BotW is the industry's messiah and Nintendo can do no wrong. Any decision, no matter how asinine, will be defended on a radical level simply because it's a decision that Nintendo made.

The reality is, the game would probably still be good with any number of tweaks. Nintendo mostly makes good shit, and these insecure fanboys harm the company by projecting their own awful self-esteem on games that don't need such childish defense.

Ridiculous post that insinuates that anyone who likes BoTW, including its durability system, are rabid "Zelda fanatics."

I mean, this simply isn't true.

I personally haven't finished a Zelda game since Twilight Princess and that one certainly had its fair share of problems.
 

Nepenthe

Member
jeez beef the game is about freedom. you leave that plateau and you can do ANYTHING! it's perfect!

except when they limit your freedom. like when it rains and you can't climb shit without having to wait at a fucking fire for the rain to stop. that's just forcing you to get out of your comfort zone, and the game is BETTER for it. learn how to PLAY the game before complaining! it's perfect!

Even in games that tout a lack of linearity and limited closed solutions (with "freedom" as a shorthand for this) there still have to be rules to abide by and consequences for breaking them for any title to even be classified as a "game" at all. Rain inhibiting your ability to climb is one such rule (which, in and of itself, can still be circumvented with other systems and mechanics in the game if you just really need to climb that mountain right then and there anyway.)

I mean, should I criticize BotW for not allowing me turn received damage off since it restricts my ability to win fights as easily as I want to and thus it doesn't offer true "freedom"? Might as well if we're going to be absurd about it.

Ridiculous post that insinuates that anyone who likes BoTW, including its durability system, are rabid "Zelda fanatics."

I mean, this simply isn't true.

I personally haven't finished a Zelda game since Twilight Princess and that one certainly had its fair share of problems.

BotW literally the fourth Zelda game I've ever played, and I only started giving them the time of day in 2011.

I guess that's enough to be a fanatic.
 

Rodin

Member
I think the review was honest and insightful.
Was it though? Because that would mean that the towers work like in ubisoft games (i.e. you get the map filled with icons), that you can't keep track of the shrines you completed, that you NEED to upgrade your stamina to progress into the game and so on... See where this is going?

I don't even care if he likes the game or not, his opinion isn't amongst those i take into consideration before buying a game (and i didn't need any to buy this one). But looking at many of the things he wrote, his review certainly doesn't look "insightful" to me.

Fucking lol

If Zelda's degrading mechanic was in New Vegas I'd probably fucking hate it because the game isn't designed to properly support such a mechanic

Get outta here with that bullshit
.

None of those posted tweets such as these before they put their reviews up:

nfw2fi0.gif
 

Cyborg

Member
Jim, well done. I realy realy loved this video. The fcking hardcore fans are just insane. If you have one bad word about Zelda or Nintendo you are immediatly attacked.

People should realy get a life and remember its just a game.

Love the metacritic quote, who tha fck gives about Metacritic.
 

Nick_C

Member
Well that all depends on the reason behind the spite. Are you saying reviewers are incapable of being spiteful?

Nope, I just don't see the value in being anything less than honest about opinions. The only person a spite-score helps is someone looking for justification of utterly hating someone.

It's career suicide.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
It certainly looks likely that Jim had an agenda to stir some shit up with a fan base that really gets on his nerves. Hard to say whether or not that agenda colored his opinion of the game, but it doesn't really matter in the end.
 
My complaint about the weapon durability is that
It opened up a golden opportunity to reward late game with unbreakable weapons that are amazing and just make you feel so incredibly powerful with playing 90% of the game with breakable weapons. But even the Master Sword is limited. And there is nothing even like the Master Sword for shields and bows.

Getting a weapon as a lengthy reward is a bitter prize when you can get plenty of great weapons just around doing stuff, an armor piece is just infinitely more valuable. I'm legitimately excited to get armor it DOES something. I sometimes open those chests in shrines that are just reward shrines and throw away their contents immediately. Greeeat a two handed fire sword neato. CLIMBING GEAR YYYYYAAAAASSSSSS!!!
Problem is, what exactly is "late game" in Breath of the Wild? Due to its completely open nature, their really is no such thing. I mean, even Hyrule Castle doesn't really count since you're able to just go in at any time and jus tleave, so it really wouldn't work.

Like, maybe as a reward for beating the game I guess? Or as a sort of New Game+ mode, like what you get access to in NG+ in Xenoblade Chronicles. But otherwise, due to the game being completely open world, I'm not sure how such a system would work since no matter where it would be you could easily make a beeline for it and just rely on it for the entire game.
 
jeez beef the game is about freedom. you leave that plateau and you can do ANYTHING! it's perfect!

except when they limit your freedom. like when it rains and you can't climb shit without having to wait at a fucking fire for the rain to stop. that's just forcing you to get out of your comfort zone, and the game is BETTER for it. learn how to PLAY the game before complaining! it's perfect!
Yes the rain is a legitimate complaint but it's also not impossible to climb in it either. Certain gear helps a lot especially with the set bonus as do stamina foods.
 

Acerac

Banned
I find it annoying when people praise the freedom the game provides (and it's great!), but then act like it's cool when freedom is completely limited in other parts of the game and you are literally forced to do things in a way you don't want to (not so great).

Is making a fire that big of a burden to you? You were swearing about how big of an annoyance it was in your other post, it does not really seem to be a big freedom limiter to me.
 

LotusHD

Banned
I find it annoying when people praise the freedom the game provides (and it's great!), but then act like it's cool when freedom is completely limited in other parts of the game and you are literally forced to do things in a way you don't want to (not so great).

I mean, it's okay to hate the rain dude.
 

Plum

Member
Except he doesn't. The Jimquisition isn't monetized, nor was the review.

How many times do I have to say the exact same thing? Jim Sterling chooses to use Patreon and merchandise to make his living; he uses Jimquisitions and his website in order to drive attention and, therefore, revenue towards those two things. Every video and review of his has links towards those two revenue streams. If people stopped giving him money he would stop creating videos so, therefore, the videos are monetized. Do street performers not monetize their performances because you don't have to pay to watch/listen to them?
 

guek

Banned
I find it annoying when people praise the freedom the game provides (and it's great!), but then act like it's cool when freedom is completely limited in other parts of the game and you are literally forced to do things in a way you don't want to (not so great).

Freedom is always an illusion. The game has loads of freedom but there are always game rules. You are always forced to do something a certain way no matter what. The game is about unfettered exploratory freedom but that doesn't really apply to the combat, nor does it have to. That doesn't mean you have to like those combat constraints though. I can understand wanting the ability to repair weapons or at least manually increase a weapon's durability but personally don't find it necessary when the game constantly throws good weapons at you.
 
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