Support NeoGAF

[Mesoian]

no, she's most definitely not saying that lol

Ok I'm convinced now.

" I totally get behind a trans girl Link who discovers her identity as a result of having to dress as a woman"

It's lazy, stupid bullshit.

All of you are confusing narrative with headcannon. You shouldn't do that.

 

[Heshinsi]

Spoiler

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8197099/Trans_2.jpg

I'm not sure if she is really a transgender.

I honestly thought the character was similar to the one in Iron Bull's company from Inquisition. There was nothing to suggest that the character was transgendered.

 

[JoeInky]

The guy in Zelda was just a merchant cross dressing as a woman so that he could sell things inside gerudo city, isn't that exactly what an NPC says or am I missing something here?

Why do people keep saying it's a trans character.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

I saw the BotW character as a guy pretending to be a woman to get into the city and not wanting to give up his identity, but I guess it can be seen in a different light. Entirely agree that the beard gag at the end wasn't really necessary.

Eh. My daughter and I had a quick snicker at the gag. Didn't think anything other than a dude trying to be sneaky and pretend to be a lady, just so he can come and go between the two settlements in the desert.

 

[jariw]

I think both articles about BotW cross-dressing are overreaching regarding the context.

As I see it, Gerudo City is pretty much a carbon copy of Timbuktu in west Africa during the 1900th century. Timbuktu was a forbidden city for Europeans (for political reasons), until René Caillés was able to get in the city in 1828, disguised as an arab.

 

[Darkman M]

Zelda guy is clearly cross-dressing to get into Gerudo town. That's how the scene reads on its face, and that's why the 'beard' reveal is okay, imo, if not particularly funny.

It's an entire town of people to trade with but you need to be a woman to enter. The fact that someone would do so isn't outrageous. The portrayal of the Gerudo themselves is awesome, too, so... I don't see much of a problem with it.

Had the male in woman's clothing been somewhere else rather than attempting to get into an all women's town, then I'd see the argument. As it is it's reaching.

Haven't played ME:A or seen any trans character in Horizon so far.

This is what I took from it as well.

 

[MegaSackman]

She's talking about a personal headcanon. If Link were a transwoman who didn't yet understand that about herself, in this particular headcanon, then yes it would make sense that trying on women's clothing could make for a moment of self-realization, absolutely.

I'd trust the words of an actual transwoman, over you, when it comes to this topic. No offense.

The Danish Girl tells the story that way, I don't know if it's true or not but well... that's how's depicted in the movie.

 

[pashmilla]

I honestly thought the character was similar to the one in Iron Bull's company from Inquisition. There was nothing to suggest that the character was transgendered.

Similar to Krem... who is trans?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

All of you are confusing narrative with headcannon. You shouldn't do that.

i'm not confusing anything. i understand exactly what laura is saying.

 

[Vena]

I'm surprised no one ever mentions the other voe in Gerudo Town, but he's very easy to miss.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I didn't Know horizon has any Trans character , Nobody mentioned it in the OT threads to my knowledge.

Because there aren't any.


Janeva isn't trans. She is a woman who had to fight and scrape to do what she wanted in life. Same as your sponsor in the Carja hunting lodge.

Calling her trans diminishes her accomplishments and challenges as a woman in heavily patriarchal society.

 

[The Wart]

All of you are confusing narrative with headcannon. You shouldn't do that.

But the narrative has nothing to say on the subject of how Link identifies. Also "Link to the player" and all that jazz. So maybe the true cannon is the cannon in your heart.

 

[EGM1966]

Seems unclear concerning the character on Horizon. It's a post apocalypse tribal society with some tribes favouring one or the other sex for certain roles. In literature choosing to disavow your gender to gain a role otherwise forbidden to you isn't uncommon and doesn't automatically mean transgender.

Maybe they were meant to be but the dialogue and wording in context of setting seems ambiguous to me.

I'll rewatch scene though to see if I just missed the detail.

 

[BlizzKrut]

Okay let's assume you actually are interested in an explanation. The beard punchline is a tired joke about how gross it is for anyone identifying as a woman to have masculine physical features. I hope I don't have to explain why trans people would not appreciate this.

How would you know it's related to a woman having masculine physical features though? Maybe it's a joke made because it's funny looking? Or maybe it's actually what you're saying, assuming things without knowing their intent isn't going to lead us anywhere in this topic (except for ME: Andromeda or Horizon, where it's clearly explicit that we're talking about trans issues).

 

[Sheytan]

Oh come on they are reaching with Zelda, cross-dressing isn't the same same as transgender.

"I’m going to put both transvestite and cross-dresser together for simplicity. Transvestites and cross-dressers are typically heterosexual males who wear traditionally feminine clothing. Transvestite has been labeled in the past to associate cross-dressing with sexual arousal, but that term has changed to transvestic fetishism.

Cross-dressers don’t associate with the LGBTQ community and don’t see themselves as anything but straight/heterosexual. Drag queens and drag kings are not usually labeled as cross-dressers/transvestites. Why? Good question, actually. People that dress in drag tend to be gay and cross-dressers tend to be straight."

 

[DrArchon]

Can you really say that BotW struggles with trans characters when there aren't any 100% confirmed, can't debate it, trans characters? It's all up to interpretation.

If you want to chastise Nintendo for not inlcuding non-debatable trans characters, that's a perfectly fine argument to make, but I wouldn't be able to criticize Nintendo for their trans characters when I have no idea if they're intended to be trans.

 

[Heshinsi]

Similar to Krem... who is trans?

I had no idea. I just looked it up. And I've talked to this character a lot as well. I thought because of certain limits placed by society, that was the reason behind his look.

 

[ZServ]

I genuinely don't understand why that makes the beard joke better?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DofxovZWoqo

I think the key mistake here is that people are taking this as an attack on being trans.

That isn't the intention. Remember the first rule of comedy, y'all: Either EVERYTHING is okay, or NOTHING is okay.

 

[Misha]

The guy in Zelda was just a merchant cross dressing as a woman so that he could sell things inside gerudo city, isn't that exactly what an NPC says or am I missing something here?

Why do people keep saying it's a trans character.

(As mentioned before I haven't played the game) is it just another character saying that? Cause if that's the case they wouldn't necessarily be reliable. It's a common thing irl to claim people are trans for some alterior motive
(I assume that's not nintendo's intent tho)

 

[Sakura]

I'm not really convinced that Zelda has any trans characters... They were just cross dressing to get into the city as it only allows women.

 

[213372bu]

The person in Gerudo town isn't a trans woman though, the NPCs in the side town make it clear that it's the merchant's partner who sneaks in to sell goods.

 

[motorised mallard]

Janeva was supposed to be a trans character? Didn't cross my mind at any point.

I assumed it was just a case of her pretending to be a boy earlier in life to become a soldier and being damn good at her job and getting to keep her job despite being the "wrong" gender.

Am I stupid, close minded or relic from the past for not thinking "yes, that is clearly a transgender person" the moment I saw her? I never thought that she wasn't even a woman, just a butch / tomboy who "cheated" the system in some way.

 

[SarusGray]

This seems a bit... reaching?

Regarding this quote though

"It's not perfect as a scene, as the lack of explicit trans language usage means many will deny this interpretation of the character. It's also unfortunate that the character was only accepted as male after conforming to a strict set of societal norms for assumed male traits. Still, this is above average for trans representation in modern gaming."

Trans language would've been nice. But the unfortunate nature of so and so only being accepted by proving them selves in my opinion is a far cry from being a sad story. I think it goes to show don't let gender prevent you from reaching new goals.

 

[Neoleo2143]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DofxovZWoqo

I think the key mistake here is that people are taking this as an attack on being trans.

That isn't the intention. Remember the first rule of comedy, y'all: Either EVERYTHING is okay, or NOTHING is okay.

I think one can subscribe to "Death of the Author" and not care about intention, only impact and conveyance. Whether it's comedic or not is irrelevant.

 

[Mesoian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DofxovZWoqo

I think the key mistake here is that people are taking this as an attack on being trans.

That isn't the intention. Remember the first rule of comedy, y'all: Either EVERYTHING is okay, or NOTHING is okay.

That still doesn't make it a particularly good joke though, especially when the punchline is a wink and a nod that there's still a dick there, which is out of sorts when you just got a pretty decent explanation of why this guy is doing what he's doing, and how it has very little to dow ith commerce with Gerudo.

It's a throw away gag that punches down rather than up for little reason other than it was easy to do.

 

[koss424]

no, she's most definitely not saying that lol

I think that's what she actually said: "trans girl Link who discovers her identity as a result of having to dress as a woman"

 

[Qasiel]

Gerudo quest seems like it's one hell of a reach. Dressing in "feminine" clothing does not make a person transgender, be it Link or the bearded character. Is it a tired joke? Yeah, probably. But that's all it is.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Oh come on they are reaching with Zelda, cross-dressing isn't the same same as transgender.

"I'm going to put both transvestite and cross-dresser together for simplicity. Transvestites and cross-dressers are typically heterosexual males who wear traditionally feminine clothing. Transvestite has been labeled in the past to associate cross-dressing with sexual arousal, but that term has changed to transvestic fetishism.

Cross-dressers don't associate with the LGBTQ community and don't see themselves as anything but straight/heterosexual. Drag queens and drag kings are not usually labeled as cross-dressers/transvestites. Why? Good question, actually. People that dress in drag tend to be gay and cross-dressers tend to be straight."

she isn't saying cross dressing is the same as transgender. the point Laura is making is that the joke in Zelda can be harmful towards trans people as cross dressing to get to the other sexes private areas is a quite common stereotype and joke

I think that's what she actually said: "trans girl Link who discovers her identity as a result of having to dress as a woman"

holy shit. comprehension is difficult.

 

[Kyari]

(As mentioned before I haven't played the game) is it just another character saying that? Cause if that's the case they wouldn't necessarily be reliable. It's a common thing irl to claim people are trans for some alterior motive
(I assume that's not nintendo's intent tho)

I get the sentiment behind this statement, but when its the only perspective we're given we have zero reason to doubt the story that NPCs around that area present Link with of a man managing to smuggle himself into the city to sell wares.

There is no conflicting counter point to any of the claims presented to Link.

Also the beard reveal is played as Link expressing shock that an errant gust of wind could blow the disguise so easily for that character.

 

[Poppy]

zelda dude isnt a trans character, just yet another shitty japanese joke that uses the concept for comedy. japan needs to get over that, and hopefully it is sooner rather than later. same with gay (or feminine acting male) characters being prettymuch only there for comedic effect.

edit: also i am mad that the gerudo armor for males has actual combat uses but i cant upgrade the female armor. friggin nintendo

 

[Lionel Richie]

Didn't know cross dressing = trans.

This and I also didn't know headcanon counts for actual content analysis in any game.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

she isn't saying cross dressing is the same as transgender. the point Laura is making is that the joke in Zelda can be harmful towards trans people as cross dressing to get to the other sexes private areas is a quite common stereotype and joke


holy shit. comprehension is difficult.

Yeah, but people who cross dress aren't transgender.

 

[wandering]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DofxovZWoqo

I think the key mistake here is that people are taking this as an attack on being trans.

That isn't the intention. Remember the first rule of comedy, y'all: Either EVERYTHING is okay, or NOTHING is okay.

That's an asinine rule considering that most everyone already has certain lines they don't like to see crossed.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Interesting article!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Mesoian]

The person in Gerudo town isn't a trans woman though, the NPCs in the side town make it clear that it's the merchant's partner who sneaks in to sell goods.

Pretty sure they're there because you can't STAY in Gerudo with that facade. Keep in mind, this person isn't counting wears with the rest of hte other traders in that village, they're on the roof of the inn, watch the town from afar. It's kind of a melancholy scene. At least it was for me because I caught it at sunset and maybe that swayed me one direction more than the other.

IMO: there's too many other things going on in that town revolving around trading for that scene to play out the way it does and just be a trading scam.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Yeah, but people who cross dress aren't transgender.

yeah? so?

 

[Kalentan]

Because there aren't any.


Janeva isn't trans. She is a woman who had to fight and scrape to do what she wanted in life. Same as your sponsor in the Carja hunting lodge.

Calling her trans diminishes her accomplishments and challenges as a woman in heavily patriarchal society.

I think she's supposed to be a Milan-like character. Except unlike Mulan everyone knew she was not a guy and continued to try and hamper her progress as a soldier because of it.

Should be noted you never see any female Carja soldiers other than Janet's. In fact the Capatin who was female wasn't Carjan but Oserium(sp).

 

[SarusGray]

she isn't saying cross dressing is the same as transgender. the point Laura is making is that the joke in Zelda can be harmful towards trans people as cross dressing to get to the other sexes private areas is a quite common stereotype and joke


holy shit. comprehension is difficult.

the problem I see with cross dressing and transgender argument is that both are different, actually very different. Cross dressing can be done by straight people, LGBT, etc and some do it merely for pleasure. It does not and shouldn't be offensive or offend transgender people but it does because of lack of understanding. e.g. straight people think trans people are just cross dressers when that's not the case. Not even in the same ball park.

What I think is the bigger problem is this idea that people dress up as the other sex to get to other areas which is what can be offensive which is definitely actually a very real issue. (People do not in real life dress up as the other gender unless they identify as the other gender to use bathrooms.)

 

[Transistor]

Because there aren't any.


Janeva isn't trans. She is a woman who had to fight and scrape to do what she wanted in life. Same as your sponsor in the Carja hunting lodge.

Calling her trans diminishes her accomplishments and challenges as a woman in heavily patriarchal society.

This is exactly how I took that character, too.

 

[vivekTO]

Because there aren't any.


Janeva isn't trans. She is a woman who had to fight and scrape to do what she wanted in life. Same as your sponsor in the Carja hunting lodge.

Calling her trans diminishes her accomplishments and challenges as a woman in heavily patriarchal society.

This is a good Clarification, although only the Game writer could solidly clarify this matter.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Polygon - finding trans where no one has found before

 

[Charamiwa]

she isn't saying cross dressing is the same as transgender. the point Laura is making is that the joke in Zelda can be harmful towards trans people as cross dressing to get to the other sexes private areas is a quite common stereotype and joke


holy shit. comprehension is difficult.

But this part is actually great and even Laura previously said so. The harmful thing is the dumb throwaway beard joke, but after that there's really no problem. Everything involving Gerudo town is awesome.

 

[Eolz]

I haven't seen any trans character in Zelda...

Spoiler

The guy that you buy the Gerudo costume from was portrayed as the stereotypical joke character in anime/manga that is closer to a drag queen, as a male not interested in being trans, but not interested in those Gerudo women sexually either.

edit: I haven't played Horizon so can't comment on that, and yeah, poor showing in Mass Effect.

 

[The Wart]

How would you know it's related to a woman having masculine physical features though? Maybe it's a joke made because it's funny looking?

Because... what's funny? The only thing happening is a woman (or at the very least someone presenting as) having masculine features. Saying that's hilarious is better than saying that's disgusting, but still not great. Besides Link's expression is one of shock rather than amusement.

I apologize for the tone of my first post, I thought you were drive-by shitposting.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

For me the Horizon character's backstory makes sense, because he was in a very patriarchal society.

Spoiler

Shadow Carja was formed by the old guards of the Carja that doesn't allow female heirs to take the place as the sun king, and where the esteemed Hunter's Lodge became a place that forbid foreigners or women to join.

Well then again I could see trans just being exiled by the Nora tribe out of fear too.

 

[SarusGray]

Because there aren't any.


Janeva isn't trans. She is a woman who had to fight and scrape to do what she wanted in life. Same as your sponsor in the Carja hunting lodge.

Calling her trans diminishes her accomplishments and challenges as a woman in heavily patriarchal society.

definitely need the writer to clarify, but didn't think they were transgender either. That could be due to the lack of transgender terminology though.

 

[Mesoian]

I haven't seen any trans character in Zelda...

Spoiler

The guy that you buy the Gerudo costume from was portrayed as the stereotypical joke character in anime/manga that is closer to a drag queen, as a male not interested in being trans, but not interested in those Gerudo women sexually either.

Again, I think this less of an okama thing and something deeper, if only because there is another gay character in the game who gets all the okama jokes.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

yeah? so?

So saying this scenario is about trans people when it is about a different subset of people is a strange case of crossing wires to make an argument that doesn't hold up the author's intention.

 

[Illucio]

Hey lets just focus on getting gay characters accepted first then lets focus on trans and non-binary which is much harder for people to understand and accept.

 

[MegaSackman]

I can't take so much confussion. :O

Hey lets just focus on getting gay characters accepted first then lets focus on trans and non-binary which is much harder for people to understand and accept.

I'm pretty sure that all three games even struggle with straight characters.