• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Naughty Dog animator explains ME's animation

obeast

Member
Oh, I hear you. The no-brainer thing wasn't meant to be in comparison to facial animations, but just... why is video game writing so bad. why is RPG writing so fucking terrible.

like, i swear to god, just read a book. read any book.

I've always thought that writing, camera direction, voice acting, and animation were inextricably linked in modern RPGs with high production values. The difference between a painfully bad line and a good one is sometimes due to factors outside the script. The same words can be garbage or quality depending on the surrounding cues you're given.

More generally, writing realistic dialogue is *hard.* It's not hard in a sci-fi novel where no one ever has to speak it, but it's damn hard in an animated, voiced game that's trying to trick your brain into thinking that it's watching real people. If you simply voiced and animated some "well written" RPG of yore (Baldur's Gate 2, say), I am sure it would suddenly be horribly written. Sound and visuals raise the stakes, and the difficulty.
 

Slaythe

Member
Also keep in mind that unlike Horizon which people still complain about lip sync in, Mass Effect has whole lot of changeable face issues to deal with and interchangeable squads. You character may have huge lips while somebody else made the lips tiny, and now it's a little harder to make the lips as perfectly aligned with the base animation that every player face will have. It's not as simple as Horizon or Witcher and nobody is quite doing the level of facial customization with choosable dialogue that BioWare is doing.

Except Andromeda is objectively WORSE than the trilogy. The ME1 developer I linked above explained why the characters don't work on his cast.

It's about the eyes jitter, nose, mouth etc.. being all disconnected. He gave tons of insight.
 
Speculation based on business logic but as to why the untouched animations: the game launched in March for a reason. End of March is end of the fiscal year and most likely EA gave ultimatum that it had to release before fiscal end to get it off their books. Devs would have had to prioritize what was left to finish and animation touchup fell off because of it. If development was troubled and EA wasn't confident another year would be worth the cost then cutting their losses and pushing it out makes sense fiscally.


This is the same company that pushed out Titanfall 2 when just waiting another 6 months would've helped that game enormously financially. EA's business desicions as of late have been heinous.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Wait is he saying they used algorithms to animate across the entire game of different characters?

Because wtf? I read what he said, that they were going to come back and do each individual but didn't have time in the end when they had to ship a game.

This would also go into poor management. Wouldn't there be milestone meetings and checks on where certain things were? Like cinematic and the quality of the animation as someone play tested the game?

I wonder if the team's inexperience animator wise was a effect of management not keeping a close eye on the project during it's 5 year cycle? If the team was somewhat young, wouldn't there be people who are in more management/veteran roles to help facilitate and oversee these team shortcomings?

So is it something that can be fixed or is that going to take a lot of time?

Too much time as they decided in the end on animating across the entire game using algorithms instead of animating each individually. It's kind of like animating with a curvature graph in maya. You do your rough in/out point then adjust and add more points to your animation curve for smoother flow of motion. Instead of filling in the gaps for each one though they seem to have run out of time and couldn't get back to it.

It would cost a lot to add those individual animations especially since there are male/female, alien races.
 

lionpants

Member
BTW, it's not just small scenes that got the bad quality.

This unacceptable piece of shit is from a romance scene :

[images]

This is not edited, it's the game. There's the full scene on youtube.

It's hilarious because Cora's romance scene is gorgeous.
I mean it doesn't help that you made your Ryder butt ugly. But ya, that's bad.
 

Parahan

Member
So it's EA's fault as predicted.

I am sure they would have realized they can't touch up all animations months before the release. So why not just delay a few more months, improve the base animations and also just use the ones from DA: I where applicable and then release it?

Sure the writing is bad but at least it would have saved them bad publicity.

So is it something that can be fixed or is that going to take a lot of time?

I think it's pretty obvious from the tweets they can't "fix" those base animations now for the whole game. They are going to iron out the bugs and maybe make a DLC with better animations if the sales are good
 
So is it something that can be fixed or is that going to take a lot of time?

That's the question, are they gonna support this game like a motherfucker or are they going to let it die? I have a feeling it'll come down to sales numbers vs expectations.
 

DavidDesu

Member
I still don't understand how scenes like 'My face is tired' wound up at such low quality. That's a very prominent character and a scene almost everyone would encounter. Unless the algorithm didn't work as intended, or it just got missed somehow?

That scene even sounds like it's a robotic voice auto translating text, awkward pauses and all. I understand the scale of the game and the time it takes but that was just hands down awful, lol. To be honest probably more entertaining it being terrible than if it had just passed off as average, then no one would care.
 
I suppose you could compare it to something like the Witcher 3, which probably comes close to having as much dialogue and content. Mass Effect does look super jenk but Fallout 4 wasn't exactly a great example of animation either and there didn't seem to be nearly as much vitriol surrounding that (admittedly average) game.

I was wondering that too. F4 did get some flack about the visuals though after the reveal trailer. I think people didn't tear it apart because the usual response to any Bethesda Game Studio RPG game is that "mods will fix it".
 

Kinyou

Member
I have another ME 1 animator and script designer that thinks Andromeda is a disaster and that the animations are "unintentionally hilarious".

He also said he saw many animations from ME1 are being reused and wrongly because the tools used by characters don't match the animation in Andromeda.

https://twitter.com/TheRealCLZ (on his cast)

He also said there was no hope to fix them in a patch given the amount of work. He said they probably ran into a big issue because their pipeline had to be entirely remade for frostbite and they couldn't port it properly. (the ME one)
I don't get why EA is pushing frostbite so hard on their studios. Wonder what engine Amy Hennig's Star Wars game will use.
 

psyfi

Banned
huh, so it turns out developers know more about the challenges of making games than random hobbyists do? shocking
 

obeast

Member
I was wondering that too. F4 did get some flack about the visuals though after the reveal trailer. I think people didn't tear it apart because the usual response to any Bethesda Game Studio RPG game is that "mods will fix it".

Bethesda games are not really about dialogue and character interactions. Those have always been garbage in their Skyrim-style games, and I expect 90% of players just skip through most of them, reading enough of the subtitles to get the gist of the plot. Bethesda games are about sandbox worlds; the other stuff is just window dressing, and the dialogue has never worked dramatically in any of their games.

Dialogue and characters are kinda Bioware's thing, by contrast, so screwing up an important part of that is rather notable.
 

jtb

Banned
Bethesda games get a pass because they're packed to the brim with content. Very similar to how GTA games are treated. The sum is greater than the pieces, etc. etc.

Having said that, the PC walking animation for Bethesda games must be the exact same one they've been using since Morrowind. It's fucking hideous. (A big part of it is the horrible default 3rd person camera too I think)
 
From what I've played 3 planets in that my face is tired lady was literally the worst moment. She's not representative of the game as a whole.
 
While what he says is absolutely true that people don't understand (large RPG's animations are more procedural than hand-animated), I don't think the reason for andromeda's issues are entirely over-scoping.

The scale of this issue and the obvious bugginess of it gives more credence to a messy development and probably changing systems (most likely a new rigging settup ect) close to going Gold. My guess is they swapped over to a different type of rigging system which screwed up all their previous animations and required resettup in a quick amount of time.

Also it being Biowares "B Team" plus I believe there were a lot of junior artists on the team, results in what you see.

I also have a feeling their cinematic facial light rigs were scrapped or changed as well. A lot of cinematic scenes don't have lighting (which can do a ton for a games look).
 

Cat Party

Member
From what I've played 3 planets in that my face is tired lady was literally the worst moment. She's not representative of the game as a whole.
My experience thus far as well. That character is bad (beyond just that line), but I've enjoyed the other characters and haven't been distracted.
 

ItsTheNew

I believe any game made before 1997 is "essentially cave man art."
I thought I read somewhere that they ported over animations from the trilogy, and can be seen with the whole arms crossing animation and putting weight on the back foot etc. I don't think it's feasible to get UC4 animation but that's a straw man argument. Who is expecting that? I think after 40 million, 4 years, a nice engine that they've used before (DAI), and the hiring power of EA they would have cranked something better.
 

Cleve

Member
Bethesda games get a pass because they're packed to the brim with content. Very similar to how GTA games are treated. The sum is greater than the pieces, etc. etc.)

I don't know if Bethesda games get a pass. People (myself included) were pretty negative about Fallout 4 for a variety of reasons. I don't know if it hit this fever pitch you see with ME, but that's maybe because the first 3 ME games were much more impressive in their time.
 
We might start to expect higher quality sure, but to see MEA go backwards from what ME had already is tough to look at, let alone all the bugs and poor performing segments.

This is my biggest issue with the quality of animations in ME:A. I mean, maybe it's been awhile so I might not be remembering correctly, but I had always thought the animations in ME3 were much better than what they were in this game.

If it's true of all the talk of troubled development, then it's clear that's what hindered it. Maybe it's just me expecting a certain level of quality for this game that I felt was in the previous entries.
 
I heard that they kept staff numbers really low and wanted to kept the games spending budget relatively low when compared to other ''open world'' games.

if true, there is so much small handful of workers can do.

Either delay the release date or hmmm hire more people.

---
Ubisoft on the other hand does the opposite, Ubisoft shoves hundreds and hundreds of people onto a project but with a shorter development window.

Studios need to find a that middle sweet spot; a medium amount of employees on a reasonable production timeline
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
Interesting stuff, thankfully I don't think the animations in RPGs ever bothered me, especially since I like to skip past them sometimes.

I remember the days of Final Fantasy canned animations, with it's arm waving and recognizable poses. If long rpg games have to automate stuff, go for it, especially now that I know the work that's put into it. I don't even remember if Dragon Age animations were jarring, and I played that today. Actually it's good enough from a remembrance of something. Cassandra getting caught with something. I like how she acted there. I'm holding in a laugh just thinking about it.

I want the next Dragon Age soon darnit. It'll probably take 7 years now.
 

chemicals

Member
wow! just read OP for the first time. I just - wow! That dude has some balls. But I've heard similar things from other people who have played it (I haven't had the chance yet). I always believe on calling people out for being-full-of-shit, so maybe this is just what we need.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Also keep in mind that unlike Horizon which people still complain about lip sync in, Mass Effect has whole lot of changeable face issues to deal with and interchangeable squads. You character may have huge lips while somebody else made the lips tiny, and now it's a little harder to make the lips as perfectly aligned with the base animation that every player face will have. It's not as simple as Horizon or Witcher and nobody is quite doing the level of facial customization with choosable dialogue that BioWare is doing.

There are ways around that, such that you take into account these differences. Doubly true given the limited customization options.

I don't get why EA is pushing frostbite so hard on their studios. Wonder what engine Amy Hennig's Star Wars game will use.

Frostbite. It is a capable engine, there is no reason why they couldn't at least match Inquisition.
 
For reference, this is how Uncharted animates. ;)

g5j9.gif


Unearthed: Trail of Ibn Battuta
 

WaterAstro

Member
Bioware is still using their archaic cutscene workflow from Neverwinter Nights.

It's worse now because they attempted to improve quality of animations in some places, which really makes it look worse overall. It's like partially wiping dust off a table where you probably wouldn't notice the dust untouched.
 

Morts

Member
I wonder how much easier the animation load would've been if the removed the ability to customize the main character.
 

MTC100

Banned
I get everything he's saying but I'm still getting that in Andromeda things aren't good and this explanation don't excuse it, just explains it. Is not that Andromeda couldn't have facial animations close to Inquisition, The Witcher or Horizon, is just things didn't work well.

I'm 5hs into the game and it's a really big issue, absolutely nobody is believable in the game, not even the main characters. I still think that's not what makes the game but it's a really noticiable issue.

Sounds as bad as I feared, damn... if they just kept the ME3 engine this game would have been so much better. The half empty open worlds on planets aren't worth all the bad animations.
 

BiggNife

Member
I don't get why EA is pushing frostbite so hard on their studios. Wonder what engine Amy Hennig's Star Wars game will use.
I think it's a pretty logical reason: EA doesn't want to pay Epic the license fees for UE4 so they'd rather use an in-house solution. It's the same reason Bethesda keeps pushing their devs to use idTech, with sometimes disastrous results (See Evil Within, where Tango tried to force the engine to run at 30fps with advanced lighting and as such it had giant performance issues). It's all about saving money.

I think Frostbite can be a pretty capable engine in the right hands but I also doubt DICE put the considerations of Bioware RPGs in mind when designing it. It was probably made first and foremost to be an engine for Battlefield and nothing else.
 

Lime

Member
I heard that they kept staff numbers really low and wanted to kept the games spending budget relatively low when compared to other ''open world'' games.

if true, there is so much small handful of workers can do.

Either delay the release date or hmmm hire more people.

---
Ubisoft on the other hand does the opposite, Ubisoft shoves hundreds and hundreds of people onto a project but with a shorter development window.

Studios need to find a that middle sweet spot; a medium amount of employees on a reasonable production timeline

not sure it was a small team:
C7YHFX9XkAEr6Y7.jpg

(no not everyone were employed or working on ME:A concurrently)
 

Buckle

Member
I suppose you could compare it to something like the Witcher 3, which probably comes close to having as much dialogue and content. Mass Effect does look super jenk but Fallout 4 wasn't exactly a great example of animation either and there didn't seem to be nearly as much vitriol surrounding that (admittedly average) game.
People don't seem to often look upon Bethesda's animation work with favor to begin with.

With MEA its more of how it looks really bad compared to Inquistion and somehow worse than its last gen counterpart. Bioware animation was never amazing but Andromeda still sticks out more than their previous ones.
 

jdstorm

Banned
Horizon has tons of uncanny Aloy expressions, almost all of her smirks, etc, look unnatural to me. It is surprising that mocap isn't easier to do these days, but I don't get my panties all bunched over it. It's just funny.

That bothered me a bit too. So i changed the language settings. I think for me those smirks felt wrong because they didnt feel natural to that voice (if that makes sense)

I still question whether Frostbite in general is a good engine to use for dialogue heavy RPGs like BioWare makes. I recall post Inquisition coming out how some of the Dragon Age developers spoke of how they had to adapt all their tools into Frostbite and I imagine having a relatively new team like BioWare Montreal get tossed into the deep end having to make a new Mass Effect game on a new engine that wasn't built from the ground up to accommodate the kind of game you're trying to make isn't an easy thing.

Then again, even going back a ways, BioWare games have never really been technical marvels. Just feel like EA mandating every EA studio use Frostbite as a cost saving measure maybe isn't the best choice in some cases.


Back to ME:A though, I think the animations themselves are only part of the problem with the characters. I imagine the actual character models being of a certain quality has a pretty substantial effect too. And some of the character models in ME:A don't look too hot.

I think that this Frostbite = Everything approach is something that will pay off in the long term, but short term being the team that pioneers a genre in it is going to be rough. That seems to hurt ME:A a fair bit. However its far from the game's biggest issue.

Good analysis, though I am a little put out that his ideal solution is more mocap than systematic technology. I mean, overall, it sounds great; more "real animation"! In practice, though, that adds a lot to the production (costly tech, application time, recording space increase needs, etc) and also changes the performance (actors wearing camera helmets do not act like actors projecting their whole being into a single microphone before them.) The simple fact that a voice actor can hold a script and look off it all day long while a mocap actor must memorize lines and deliver them straight on to camera (unless they have some kind of telestrator mount for mocap? but even that adds eye/muscle movements) is a night and day difference, and that's just over a piece of paper. VO is a honed skill, and performance-capture acting has made great strides but it will always be different and will always depend on the situation if it's the best solution.

So I keep hoping that technology and procedural adjustments (the randomized gestures in Witcher 3 sounds genius) and blending of animation techniques in a scene will help animators get the job done easier and better. Sounds like the pro here doesn't trust it to get there, which is unfortunate. On the other hand, if he believes mocap technology will continue to get better and easier to use, that's a win in that direction. You'll never get better than longingly handled, hand-adjusted, fully managed animation, but we're going to need tech on one side or the other in order to cope with the demands and costs of modern games.

Not an animator, but what i think this guy is saying is that by focusing on mocap you get the majority of the movements needed, so only having to touch up the eyes (Due to reading a teleprompter) is much easier to do then have to tweak every Body/Facial animation by hand.
 

The Lamp

Member
Jesus,

Why do this in tweet form?


Still very informative

Twitter is the worst. It's such a stupid medium to communicate any thoughts larger than headlines or 1-liner comebacks.

Anyway, it's an interesting take, but one that wasn't hard to surmise. Gamers love unfair comparisons.
 
Out of curiousity I looked up the "My face is tired" thinking it was just a name given to a funny animation from the game.

Nevermind the Captin Scarlet puppet animation, how the hell did that line in the script get OK'd.

I ask you "My face is tired", sheesh.
 

Doran902

Member
Makes sense, personally I just feel like I am playing an unfinished game that couldn't meet budget / time contraints and got pushed out (which is kind of what he says in a roundabout way). Very disappointed. MP still fun with friends.
 

Lt-47

Member
What's kind of sad about the bad animations is that bioware really picked up on the mocking of ME3's running animation and really put a lot of work into animating Ryder walking around, but of course does that now get totally overshadowed.

Yeah it's a shame. The new procedural animation for walking and running are pretty impressive. It's much better than Witcher 3 in that regards.
 
Key thing for me in that is: Quality vs Quantity tradeoff. And for me, this is not just true of animation, but nearly every aspect of open world/rpg (or any REALLY large game in general) and one of the reasons why this is, in some ways, an inherently flawed way of designing a game to begin with.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
So if I understand this "controversy", there were several animators on the new ME, but the Gators/Alt-right zeroed in on the the female one?

Yeah, some guy on Twitter thought it was a good idea to only single out female members on the ME dev team.
 
Key thing for me in that is: Quality vs Quantity tradeoff. And for me, this is not just true of animation, but nearly every aspect of open world/rpg (or any REALLY large game in general) and one of the reasons why this is, in some ways, an inherently flawed way of designing a game to begin with.

There is nothing inherent about the length or size of a game that makes it more or less fun, in the same way that a short or "smaller" game isn't inherently more fun. I think you're underestimating how arcane this concept of "fun" really is. There are definitely things that a large amount of people really like, and which are also very easily reproducible in large quantities to the point where you end up with these 100 hour behemoths. The fact that they even exist to begin with should tell you as much.
 

Eppy Thatcher

God's had his chance.
BTW, it's not just small scenes that got the bad quality.

This unacceptable piece of shit is from a romance scene :

4e2613395730bb9b837151164438b429.jpg


4c5b0ced5431d011fe0757cf6116775c.jpg



................ Yeah. . .

This is not edited, it's the game. There's the full scene on youtube.

It's hilarious because Cora's romance scene is gorgeous.

This is.... like... this is running on a 10 year old alienware laptop or something right?

This shouldn't be real. Like the lighting and wash out and the eyes oh my god the eyes...

Wuuuuut happened. I enjoyed dudes tweets.. any behind the scenes on development is cool and I enjoy it. He especially seems like a cool guy for diffusing some of the snark around this conversation but ... like the animation isn't the only problem with Andromeda..
every ounce of writing and every image and every video has some glaring fault that i can't avoid locking into and it's just so fucking distracting.
Anyone that's put more than a few hours into it here have some kind words? does it develop past all these concerns? does the gameplay warrant giving at least some of this stuff a pass?
oh how the mighty have fallen... fuck..
 
Top Bottom