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[simtmb]

Figured i'd share this.

I had sorted out a replacement C6 due to severe banding down the middle of the set, the TV was mostly uniform but it was straight down the center and was of a significantly lighter shade so it was far too noticeable across all content.

My replacement came today and upon turning it on, all seemed fine til i booted up Hohokum that i purchased from the current PSN store sale. Game starts with a grey screen and I noticed absolutely severe vignetting that my previous panel lacked, it looked so awful i was convinced i'd try getting it replaced again immediately.

But i thought i might as well just try running the manual compensation cycle once, and when it was done, it cleared up completely and now despite still some banding, it's all fine. Anyone know how all this works? As now it's drastically better and worth keeping.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Except in real life we avoid looking at the sun. When watching a 2D panel in my home, I don't want to be made to look away from the display. That's is simply taking it too far and I'll have turned HDR off if that's where we wind up. Hopefully more players follow Oppo in including a strip metadata feature while passing Rec. 2020.

Ideally, you would change the way you're filming, and mastering movies so that this would never be a problem. Remember, too, that it's not the entire screen necessarily at 10,000 nits.

For HDR to continue to improve, we're going to need to see OLEDs continue to push brighter, and LCDs to eventually improve black levels. It'll then be up to the artist as to how they use the dynamic range.

 

[TheBoss1]

And the XE940E is only 75"... :/

I guess what I really wish existed is a 55" Z9D or for the A1E to be $1k cheaper or have HDMI2.1.

I really don't want to go back to a KS8000, but ..

I recently got a quote about the A1E from a supposedly reputable dealer. He offered me $3250 for the 55 inch. I am so tempted to buy that thing but my range is $2000-$2500.

 

[Yawnny]

It is just one less cable with ARC. I used ARC on my E6 with a receiver and it has less power than going over optical imo. So I have to turn my receiver louder on hdmi ARC.

I still don't see how it's one less cable. If I'm using the arc port for audio out then whatever console was plugged in there prior has to be plugged in to another HDMI port, using another cable.. so it's still the same number of cables.

Are you using a 4K receiver with all your consoles are running in to that? Because that's the only thing I can think of that people keep misreading about my setup to keep giving me the same answer lol.

 

[reKon]

I'm about to buy a KS8000 from Costco in a few days. I know it's not OLED, but I'm not goign to spend $2500+ on a 65 inch OLED. I'll reassess 3-4 years from now when there's more competition and I can get razor thin 75 inch OLED TVs for $2,000.

I currently have the 55UT50 Panny plasma from 2013. I know the Samsung KS8000 has great picture quality, but I'm assuming that my Plasma will still be much better for films because of the deep blacks? What should I be expecting in terms of picture quality differences?

Thanks.

Damn, no help here? I know some of you are former Panasonic Plasma owners...

Unless you all just straight to OLED.

 

[Madness]

Damn, no help here? I know some of you are former Panasonic Plasma owners...

Unless you all just straight to OLED.

I mean what can anyone really say? Yeah the black levels of your plasma were great, but the KS8000 will probably outclass it in everything and it has decent blacks for being a non-FALD edge lit LED, provided you are lucky with the panel lottery. However some long time plasma owners just cannot stand edge lit LED's. The key difference here is also that it is an apples and oranges comparison. The KS8000 has the ability to do 4K and is spec'ed for HDR10. Your plasma also never got bright like this, and you will see why that is important when you see HDR. This tv also outclasses yours in terms of image detail, color accuracy etc.

I'd say it is a great stopgap until you want to shell out fot a flagship OLED, maybe wait until HDR gets more refined, HDMI 2.1 gets introduced etc.

 

[BumRush]

I'm about to buy a KS8000 from Costco in a few days. I know it's not OLED, but I'm not goign to spend $2500+ on a 65 inch OLED. I'll reassess 3-4 years from now when there's more competition and I can get razor thin 75 inch OLED TVs for $2,000.

I currently have the 55UT50 Panny plasma from 2013. I know the Samsung KS8000 has great picture quality, but I'm assuming that my Plasma will still be much better for films because of the deep blacks? What should I be expecting in terms of picture quality differences?

Thanks.

I have a Panasonic plasma as well. I had an edge-lit Samsung 1080P LED in my house for a little over a year and had to sell it because the picture on the plasma was way better. Not at all saying that's the experience you'll have with the KS8000 - and what is important to you in a TV - but that's my experience.

 

[Yawnny]

Edit: I bumped brightness up to 52 and it looks much, much better in HDR without having to turn on dynamic contrast. Not sure if this is a panel specific issue or not.

52 was also the sweet spot for me, still get deep blacks but can see some more detail

 

[gsrjedi]

I still don't see how it's one less cable. If I'm using the arc port for audio out then whatever console was plugged in there prior has to be plugged in to another HDMI port, using another cable.. so it's still the same number of cables.

Are you using a 4K receiver with all your consoles are running in to that? Because that's the only thing I can think of that people keep misreading about my setup to keep giving me the same answer lol.

ARC is both in and out. You would plug your non 4K devices into your receiver. The receiver's output goes to the TV input that has ARC. Your 4K devices plug into your TV's other inputs. Then when you use a 4K device the audio goes through the ARC input back to the receiver.

That's how I had my setup for my PC before I had a 4K receiver

 

[Paragon]

Still not sure why Horizon Zero Dawn HDR looks so much duller, less bright and less colorful on my b6 then non hdr mode. Is this normal?

HDR basically forces your display into a calibrated state for brightness.
If a scene is coded to have a brightness of 50 nits, it's shown at 50 nits no matter the display.

SDR does not, which means that it can be displayed several times brighter than it was intended to be seen at.
A scene intended to be viewed at 50 nits in SDR - which is coded as "50% brightness" and not "50 nits" - would be shown at 250 nits if the TV has a 500 nits maximum brightness and the TV is maxed out instead of being run at a calibrated level. (which is 100 nits for SDR)

The point is that the instant pixel response mitigates the low motion resolution.

That's now how it works.
Pixel response time affects how much ghosting/smearing there is in motion.
Image persistence affects how much motion blur there is.

OLED: Fast Response Times, High Persistence:

LCD: Slow Response Times, High Persistence:

LCD: Slow Response Times, Low Persistence:

Fast response times are always better than slow response times when image persistence is the same.
Lower image persistence is nearly always better than fast response times with regard to motion blur though.
Fast response times and low image persistence would be ideal. (OLED with blur reduction features)

Ideally, you would change the way you're filming, and mastering movies so that this would never be a problem. Remember, too, that it's not the entire screen necessarily at 10,000 nits.
For HDR to continue to improve, we're going to need to see OLEDs continue to push brighter, and LCDs to eventually improve black levels. It'll then be up to the artist as to how they use the dynamic range.

The other thing to consider is how bright saturated colors can be.
In BT.2020, a fully saturated blue is going to be displayed at 5.93% of your maximum brightness.
So to display a really bright and vivid blue, you need a very bright display.
And since LG's OLEDs cheat on brightness measurements by using a white subpixel, you need an even brighter display than you might think.

 

[reKon]

I have a Panasonic plasma as well. I had an edge-lit Samsung 1080P LED in my house for a little over a year and had to sell it because the picture on the plasma was way better. Not at all saying that's the experience you'll have with the KS8000 - and what is important to you in a TV - but that's my experience.

I've read that the KS8000 can achieve deep blacks and has some of the best picture quality for an LED display. I don't mind the picture being sightly worse because I will get the main upgrades that I'm looking for - screen size, HDR, and the overall design.

I think that I will lose out on picture quality in a dark room and the fact that my Plasma Panny has pretty good 3D technology.

 

[BumRush]

I've read that the KS8000 can achieve deep blacks and has some of the best picture quality for an LED display. I don't mind the picture being sightly worse because I will get the main upgrades that I'm looking for - screen size, HDR, and the overall design.

I think that I will lose out on picture quality in a dark room and the fact that my Plasma Panny has pretty good 3D technology.

Yeah, if you care about those 3 things above all, get the 8000 for sure! Just be prepared for blacks that don't match your plasma and pray to the panel gods (as is my issue with Edge-lit LEDs in general) that you have no clouding / uniformity issues. All that said, it's a GREAT set!

 

[Art Vandilay]

In regards to the B6 calibration, I tweeted a guy from DF and he said they're working on an article as to the proper settings. Think I'm just gonna focus on breaking in the TV in the meantime.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

When's the TV coming in? Gonna give us impressions? lol

Well it is preordered so I'm not sure but I will definitely give impressions.

 

[TheBoss1]

RTINGS finally posted the review for the Sony X930E. I must say I am impressed except for the fact that 1080P input lag in game mode is mediocre (42 ms). 4K on the other hand has excellent input lag measurements at 25 ms.

 

[Madness]

RTINGS finally posted the review for the Sony X930E. I must say I am impressed except for the fact that 1080P input lag in game mode is mediocre (42 ms). 4K on the other hand has excellent input lag measurements at 25 ms.

Damn. Almost 1400+ nits and 25 ms input lag for 4K/60Hz and HDR. Sony is really improving on everything they struggled with last year. Can't wait for the X800E review and finally the A1E OLED.

 

[Lima]

I've read that the KS8000 can achieve deep blacks and has some of the best picture quality for an LED display. I don't mind the picture being sightly worse because I will get the main upgrades that I'm looking for - screen size, HDR, and the overall design.

I think that I will lose out on picture quality in a dark room and the fact that my Plasma Panny has pretty good 3D technology.

Nah fam 3D on a Plasma was trash. Even in a pitch black room it was too dim and noisy. Not to mention it was active shutter 3D which is even worse.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

RTINGS finally posted the review for the Sony X930E. I must say I am impressed except for the fact that 1080P input lag in game mode is mediocre (42 ms). 4K on the other hand has excellent input lag measurements at 25 ms.

This is just new right? I was checking few minutes ago and it wasn't there.

1080p @ 60Hz Show Help: 42.3 ms Input lag. Come on. Just why?

Even 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR Show Help: 25.8 ms Input Lag is still high.

Still good TV. Sadly no 49 inch version. It seems all new TVs from all companies dropped that size.

Damn. Almost 1400+ nits and 25 ms input lag for 4K/60Hz and HDR. Sony is really improving on everything they struggled with last year. Can't wait for the X800E review and finally the A1E OLED.

1442 nits is really impressive. I expected 2017 models for Samsung to exceed 1000 nits.

Now no company makes 49 inch TV this year.

 

[vpance]

RTINGS finally posted the review for the Sony X930E. I must say I am impressed except for the fact that 1080P input lag in game mode is mediocre (42 ms). 4K on the other hand has excellent input lag measurements at 25 ms.

What a light cannon. And the brightness sustains perfectly too. That real scene HDR measurement is at 1442 cd/m2! All the main sets from 2016 were in the 500-600 range.

 

[BumRush]

What a light cannon. And the brightness sustains perfectly too. That real scene HDR measurement is at 1442 cd/m2! All the main sets from 2016 were in the 500-600 range.

This is great news, especially for HDR. I hope it translates (not 1:1 obviously) to OLEDs in future years.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

What a light cannon. And the brightness sustains perfectly too. That real scene HDR measurement is at 1442 cd/m2! All the main sets from 2016 were in the 500-600 range.

Imagine, GT Sport supports future TVs with up to 10000 nits. the day such TVs will be out, we will have GT8 and PS5 PRO.

 

[TheBoss1]

Damn. Almost 1400+ nits and 25 ms input lag for 4K/60Hz and HDR. Sony is really improving on everything they struggled with last year. Can't wait for the X800E review and finally the A1E OLED.

What a light cannon. And the brightness sustains perfectly too. That real scene HDR measurement is at 1442 cd/m2! All the main sets from 2016 were in the 500-600 range.

This is great news, especially for HDR. I hope it translates (not 1:1 obviously) to OLEDs in future years.

Don't overlook the 1540/1510 nits @ 10% in HDR too! I really wanna see their review on the A1E but I'm sure that we'll be waiting for quite some time.

Even 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR Show Help: 25.8 ms Input Lag is still high.

How is 25.8 ms input lag high?

 

[vpance]

The most noticeable downside to this TV is probably the viewing angle though. Only 12 degrees off center and black levels start to drop. Jeez. That is worse than normal for VA panels. X900E is and KS8000 is at 17 and 19 in comparison.

 

[TheBoss1]

The most noticeable downside to this TV is probably the viewing angle though. Only 12 degrees off center and black levels start to drop. Jeez. That is worse than normal for VA panels. X900E is and KS8000 is at 17 and 19 in comparison.

Yeah that sucks. That and the input lag in 1080P.

Now that I think about it, these measurements support what Sector claimed about the input lag on his Z9D because they share the same chipset and lag measurements are almost identical.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

How is 25.8 ms input lag high?

Other TVs are around 21,20,19 and even 17, 16 ms. 5-10 ms aren't meaningless.
Still the big problem is the input lag in 1080p. Imagine if someone wanst to play some games in 1080p mode forced through TV and on PS4 PRO because of some enhancement in that mode? I hope a firmware update will fix this.

Anyway the lack of 49" models this year from any company is kinda repulsing if you are frugal and don't have enough space.

 

[Yawnny]

ARC is both in and out. You would plug your non 4K devices into your receiver. The receiver's output goes to the TV input that has ARC. Your 4K devices plug into your TV's other inputs. Then when you use a 4K device the audio goes through the ARC input back to the receiver.

That's how I had my setup for my PC before I had a 4K receiver

Bingo. This was an amazing explanation. I'm all cleared up now, thank you!

 

[BumRush]

The most noticeable downside to this TV is probably the viewing angle though. Only 12 degrees off center and black levels start to drop. Jeez. That is worse than normal for VA panels. X900E is and KS8000 is at 17 and 19 in comparison.

Another reason why drastic brightness improvements in OLEDs would be so important

 

[Joe Spangle]

Hello GAF, im about to buy an LG OLED55B6V. Am i a fool?

Reviews say its a good one, i have a powerful pc capable of higher than 1080p res, i did read that you shouldnt use it as a monitor due to some sort of burn in image issue (not permanent like an old plasma).

Is there a better OLED for about £2000?

 

[Wiped89]

Hello GAF, im about to buy an LG OLED55B6V. Am i a fool?

Reviews say its a good one, i have a powerful pc capable of higher than 1080p res, i did read that you shouldnt use it as a monitor due to some sort of burn in image issue (not permanent like an old plasma).

Is there a better OLED for about £2000?

I can't imagine there would be. But where are you seeing that price? I bought a C6 for £1,800 this week (Currys) with a free LG sound system thrown in. The B6 was £100 cheaper at £1,700.

I've had my C6 for five days now and I haven't noticed any burn-in, even on games with consistent HUD elements.

 

[wege12]

HDR basically forces your display into a calibrated state for brightness.
If a scene is coded to have a brightness of 50 nits, it's shown at 50 nits no matter the display.

SDR does not, which means that it can be displayed several times brighter than it was intended to be seen at.
A scene intended to be viewed at 50 nits in SDR - which is coded as "50% brightness" and not "50 nits" - would be shown at 250 nits if the TV has a 500 nits maximum brightness and the TV is maxed out instead of being run at a calibrated level. (which is 100 nits for SDR)

That's now how it works.
Pixel response time affects how much ghosting/smearing there is in motion.
Image persistence affects how much motion blur there is.



Fast response times are always better than slow response times when image persistence is the same.
Lower image persistence is nearly always better than fast response times with regard to motion blur though.
Fast response times and low image persistence would be ideal. (OLED with blur reduction features)

The other thing to consider is how bright saturated colors can be.
In BT.2020, a fully saturated blue is going to be displayed at 5.93% of your maximum brightness.
So to display a really bright and vivid blue, you need a very bright display.
And since LG's OLEDs cheat on brightness measurements by using a white subpixel, you need an even brighter display than you might think.

I guess I prefer the oversaturated look then.

Are there any LCDs on the market now that have low persistence and low pixel response time with comparable black levels and contrast to the OLEDs?

 

[Art Vandilay]

The poster before was mentioning motion issues with games specifically though. Again, motion is not an issue with gaming. Sure, motion resolution isn't the greatest, but you have instant pixel response, with OLED, so you don't get the smearing you do with LCD sets, so I have no idea what the other poster was referring to, as these sets have the best motion in gaming, since CRT.

That's all the while not even mentioning the lack of DSE and blooming that LCDs feature both. OLEDs are perfectly suited to gaming.

Also I truly recommend not using any TrueMotion settings when gaming as they will lead to very laggy controls and increased response times.

I agree, definitely turn it off when gaming.

 

[Yawnny]

Hello GAF, im about to buy an LG OLED55B6V. Am i a fool?

Reviews say its a good one, i have a powerful pc capable of higher than 1080p res, i did read that you shouldnt use it as a monitor due to some sort of burn in image issue (not permanent like an old plasma).

Retention maybe. Burn in, nothing reported as of yet and reviews state it won't be an issue in the future.

Screen can clean itself of burn in if need be. I've been using as a comp monitor and have not noticed any image retention whatsoever. Of course I don't do anything silly and leave my desktop background on for hours at a time.

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

Z9D is around 26ms input lag on a 4K source with or without HDR if I remember correctly, how does that compare to the E6? For some reason I thought the E6 had worse input lag, that was a consideration for me too as I was choosing between the same two TVs.

Haha! That's an awesome shot, I'd love to see it on the Z. The thing is though, not all of that shot would be insanely bright, only the highlights, the parts that appear white in that image.

Life of Pi has some excellent scenes to show off HDR which have similar colours to that shot. Lots of sun stuff.



Maybe if you saw it in person you'd think differently, it's never uncomfortable to watch. But everyone is going to have a different preference / tolerance. Having that much extra brightness for the highlights just helps with HDR. If the content is being mastered at 1,000, 2,000 or 10,000 nits, how is it counter intuitive to get as close to that as possible?

Oh boy, tell me about it! I've been eagerly anticipating that 4K Blu Ray I haven't seen the show at all yet, I'm pretty excited to check it out!

Was there an firmware update to reduce lag? I thought it cycled from 42-47....?

Planet Earth 2 looks sensational btw.

 

[k1t4j]

Hello GAF,

I want to jump into the 4k world. I have a ps4 pro and I want some HDR goodness.

Can you guys advise me on some good TV's with all the bells and whistles for 4k? I'm in
EU, Spain.

I currently have a 2012 - 39' LG, wanted something slightly bigger 50' onwards?

If anyone has some recommendations would be great!

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

How often do TV manufacturers update firmware nowadays? This is my first Internet connected television.

 

[Trojita]

RTINGS finally posted the review for the Sony X930E. I must say I am impressed except for the fact that 1080P input lag in game mode is mediocre (42 ms). 4K on the other hand has excellent input lag measurements at 25 ms.

The LG B6 is an OLED TV, which thanks to its perfect blacks and contrast makes it a step ahead of the X930E when it comes to picture quality. The B6 doesn't get quite as bright, but it can produce a wider range of color and it handles motion blur a bit better than the Sony. They're around the same price, so the better pick is the LG B6 OLED TV.

That doesn't sound right.

 

[vpance]

I don't think Rtings actually use any of their TVs extensively.

 

[Ocho]

I don't think Rtings actually use any of their TVs extensively.

How does this matter? Aren't the objective numbers the things we're looking for?

 

[Yawnny]

I don't think Rtings actually use any of their TVs extensively.

Yeah, they seem like pretty quick reviews, but they have everything I would want to see and get impressions out the door really quickly.. They review TV's as much as I would review them myself.. and give general ideas of what to expect. Can't ask for much more short from hearing a god damn engineering essay on chroma mesh subsampling in quantum space, or somesuch.

 

[Art Vandilay]

You guys think the price of the 55" B6 will drop lower than $1140 in the next month? Curious if I should go ahead and submit the price protection request. And I don't want to wait too long in case my claim is denied and the shady sites are then pushing the newer models.

 

[wege12]

You guys think the price of the 55" B6 will drop lower than $1140 in the next month? Curious if I should go ahead and submit the price protection request. And I don't want to wait too long in case my claim is denied and the shady sites are then pushing the newer models.

Where is it for $1140? I know ebuyusa had it for that but they upped their price recently to $1500.

 

[EBreda]

You mean the Panasonic V10 series from 09. There was no VT10 (or 11 for that matter). Also there is no KS 6000 so you are getting your model numbers a bit mixed up here. I assume you are talking about the cheap and widely popular KS8000 series in the US.

If so no the blacks won't be a downgrade. In fact the V10 couldn't display very deep blacks to begin with. Factor in the multiple black level rises your set had over the years and I'd say it's more grey than black now. To put up some numbers. The Panny plasma had a level of 0.04 cd/m2 which is the same the Samsung has today. Basically everything else will be miles better, black levels will be a match for what your set had back when it was new.

Thank you very much, Lima.

 

[Art Vandilay]

Where is it for $1140? I know ebuyusa had it for that but they upped their price recently to $1500.

I took a screenshot when it was at $1140.

 

[wege12]

I took a screenshot when it was at $1140.

Any chance you could send me that screenshot?

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Well it is preordered so I'm not sure but I will definitely give impressions.

I canceled my BHphoto.com order and went with Crutchfield since they can ship immediately and don't charge tax just like BH. Has anyone had experience with Crutchfield?

The 49 inch version of the Sony 900e is in and out of stock everywhere. At 1198, it is very affordable and the picture quality makes it worth it. The input lag is good enough and I suspect firmware updates will only improve this over time.

 

[vpance]

How does this matter? Aren't the objective numbers the things we're looking for?

Yeah, they seem like pretty quick reviews, but they have everything I would want to see and get impressions out the door really quickly.. They review TV's as much as I would review them myself.. and give general ideas of what to expect. Can't ask for much more short from hearing a god damn engineering essay on chroma mesh subsampling in quantum space, or somesuch.

Just an observation, no bad judgement on them. I mean, yeah, they layout all the important measurements. The quickie comparo commentary at the end just kind of tells me they like to put an emphasis on value. Makes sense for most people I guess.

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

Gotta hand it to Sony, they really know how to do edge dimming well, the vast majority of edge lits get 3.5/10 for local dimming.

 

[Joe Spangle]

I can't imagine there would be. But where are you seeing that price? I bought a C6 for £1,800 this week (Currys) with a free LG sound system thrown in. The B6 was £100 cheaper at £1,700.

I've had my C6 for five days now and I haven't noticed any burn-in, even on games with consistent HUD elements.

Cheers. still shopping around so thanks for the info on price.

 

[BriareosGAF]

I canceled my BHphoto.com order and went with Crutchfield since they can ship immediately and don't charge tax just like BH. Has anyone had experience with Crutchfield?

Buy stereo components from them all the time. Old and extremely customer-focused company, excellent support. That said, have not bought a TV from them previously.

 

[Art Vandilay]

Any chance you could send me that screenshot?

I would, but I took it on a MacBook and my name is in the top right corner. Not really sure if I could get in trouble for sharing it? See if you can't pull a cached version of the site with that price.