Giant Panda
Member
Really though, Eldrazi need to be more relatable? What?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
- Status
charlequin
Banned
Looking forward to actually listening myself, but this is super in-depth and is a very good breakdown of the problems as a whole. At least as you've presented this here, this is a much better (and more accurate in accepting culpability) take on how ROE was a bad influence than the original "mistake was looking at ROE at all" summary. Definitely feels like these are all takeaways that they can follow to actually avoid making similar mistakes in the future.
I still haven't seen any serious evidence that there's anywhere outside Standard where they're unpopular with people or that they aren't just having their version of the Equipment issue (i.e. horribly overpowered initially due to lack of understanding how the mechanic works.)
Compare Artisan of Kozilek or It That Betrays to Void Winnower or Deceiver of Form.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They create stupid gameplay. I don't like them in Standard or in Limited, either.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
That was weird to me too. But we should have seen it coming after Jace had his chat with Emrakul.
So dumb.
Infinite Stars
Member
Hahaha that list of "how we screwed up BFZ"
Vehicles printed in a Standard Environment where there was functionally no way to interact with them that wasn't shit is a bad idea. Same goes for Crew costs that are effectively free (Either Heart of Kiran's Alternative or Smuggler's Copter).
Energy is legitimately good though because every card that uses it makes it in some way, and the activation cost never exceeds how much you make (except on the big payoff cards)
Vehicles aren't bad on a fundamental level. They serve as a new idea of design space that's something not super limited.
Vehicles printed in a Standard Environment where there was functionally no way to interact with them that wasn't shit is a bad idea. Same goes for Crew costs that are effectively free (Either Heart of Kiran's Alternative or Smuggler's Copter).
Energy is legitimately good though because every card that uses it makes it in some way, and the activation cost never exceeds how much you make (except on the big payoff cards)
SigmasonicX
Member
Considering only Ashodin has had the opportunity to listen to the podcast so far, he probably worded the relatability detail badly.
That part is pretty much verbatim. MaRo said he thought the Eldrazi erred on the side of being TOO WEIRD and incomprehensible and instead should have been easier to relate to or understand.
I'm assuming he means either visually or story-wise.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah but there's nothing innately bad about the way they play in Limited, it's having a set that's chock full of them at all rarities where they're a dominant factor in the format. Again, see equipment in MIR x 3 vs. equipment in most later limited formats.
Yes, they specifically went with weird because they weren't willing to commit to scary. Scary was a much better angle, and both OGW and EMN did a better job of that than BFZ did.
GEE I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT POP CULTURE CONCEPT THEY COULD HAVE GONE WITH AS A TOUCHSTONE *read in the voice of AoT Abridged's Thomas*
charlequin
Banned
GEE I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT POP CULTURE CONCEPT THEY COULD HAVE GONE WITH AS A TOUCHSTONE *read in the voice of AoT Abridged's Thomas*
every time you say this i remember the NERV t-shirt I had i college and feel indescribably old
I used to use my store credit at my game shop to buy the DVDs.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The watermark was a minor issue in a vast swath of problems with BFZ. Most of the mechanics sucked and a full color was utter garbo in limited.
The biggest problem with BFZ is that all of the core ideas made no sense or sucked.
Landfall is a grossly overrated mechanic because it rarely asks you to do anything you don't want to do anyways, contributes to playing MORE land (thus, less spells) in limited, which is usually not fun, and because you can only play land on your own turn under most circumstances. They also depowered it because Zendikar limited was garbo.
Rally was just a bog standard tribal mechanic which had no real coherent theme beyond playing those creatures because they have no specific interaction with the other tribal cards beyond triggering an ETB.
Awaken was fine, I guess. It just never felt pushed or interesting in any way and all of the cards that saw play in Constructed with the mechanic would be replaced by versions with literally any other upside. Putting Awaken on a 1UU counter would see play if the only other alternative was Cancel, but Void Shatter immediately replaced it and Disallow is far better. You couldn't build around the mechanic in Limited, you'd just play them if the card was reasonable without the Awaken ability.
Ingest was confusing garbage that almost never actually worked in limited because its too weirdly complicated to enable. Devoid was a mechanic on the typeline, but didn't do anything, and I saw firsthand how disappointed players were when they realized it didn't do anything. There weren't really that many interactions with it in limited, either.
Converge was a mechanic that made no sense being in the set and wasn't actually very easy to do anything with in limited because green sucked, but it was the base color for a 3+ color deck.
The biggest problem with BFZ is that all of the core ideas made no sense or sucked.
Landfall is a grossly overrated mechanic because it rarely asks you to do anything you don't want to do anyways, contributes to playing MORE land (thus, less spells) in limited, which is usually not fun, and because you can only play land on your own turn under most circumstances. They also depowered it because Zendikar limited was garbo.
Rally was just a bog standard tribal mechanic which had no real coherent theme beyond playing those creatures because they have no specific interaction with the other tribal cards beyond triggering an ETB.
Awaken was fine, I guess. It just never felt pushed or interesting in any way and all of the cards that saw play in Constructed with the mechanic would be replaced by versions with literally any other upside. Putting Awaken on a 1UU counter would see play if the only other alternative was Cancel, but Void Shatter immediately replaced it and Disallow is far better. You couldn't build around the mechanic in Limited, you'd just play them if the card was reasonable without the Awaken ability.
Ingest was confusing garbage that almost never actually worked in limited because its too weirdly complicated to enable. Devoid was a mechanic on the typeline, but didn't do anything, and I saw firsthand how disappointed players were when they realized it didn't do anything. There weren't really that many interactions with it in limited, either.
Converge was a mechanic that made no sense being in the set and wasn't actually very easy to do anything with in limited because green sucked, but it was the base color for a 3+ color deck.
Simply Sarah
Member
Yes, I feel that's the current view and I tend to agree. The issue seems to be with vehicles being pushed and purely face smashy and/or just overpowered. I think they can work.
Are these from MaRo? While I could sorta understand Deceiver of Form I tend to feel Void Winnower came off as a card people got and appreciated for what it was. Without having listened yet I'd think it was more about how many of the Eldrazi were weird in ways seemingly designed to just be weird rather than weird in interesting or horrifying ways, especially with the whole mess of Process and Ingest.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Ingest and Process are the mind of mechanics I would have liked to see evolve over a block. As it was they were underserved even for a single set
Shadows was mostly just adding tentacles to things. Emerge was good mechanically but the cards didn't seem like they were emerging from anythng in most of the art, which was a missed horror opportunity. Frankly they pulled off gothic horror much better than lovecraftian and it has nothing on how well they did with New Phyrexia
Shadows was where they found their footing I feel.
It's clear they didn't understand RoE or the Eldrazi and botched it so now they are blaming it all on not focusing on adventure world Zendikar.
Also not mentioned in the podcast, Battle for Zendikar probably features the worst/most uninspired art in a Magic set for at least the last 15 years.
It is really funny that ROE was considered a failure in market research, loved only by hardcore players because of it's unique limited, and then in the return to Zendikar, they decide to double down on the stuff that people disliked, and then paired it with one of the worst limited formats they have ever crafted.
It is really funny that ROE was considered a failure in market research, loved only by hardcore players because of it's unique limited, and then in the return to Zendikar, they decide to double down on the stuff that people disliked, and then paired it with one of the worst limited formats they have ever crafted.
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's funny, because on the surface BFZ isn't actually trying to do anything particularly out of the ordinary. It's not like it was swinging for the fences and whiffed - it just fucking sucked.
It's a war set like Scars block. And they just completely blew it.
New Phyrexians are just thematically a little too good. They have that perfect balance of body/mind horror with conventional yucky gore to be offputting and yet fascinating.
Eldrazi doesn't have much to work with without broaching on the territory of Phyrexians.
Eldrazi doesn't have much to work with without broaching on the territory of Phyrexians.
charlequin
Banned
No, that was just my offhand set of examples, but yes, basically that latter thing: the eldrazi should be weird, but weird in service of being horrifying, not weird for weird's sake.
Imperfected
Member
Listen, sometimes when literally everything else you did was wrong you just sort of assume the one thing you did right was wrong, too. That's natural.
Re: Ingest/Process
Process was just poorly used. They consistently attached it to big, overcosted creatures that would activate it trivially and had budget for the effect to be unconditional, anyway. The only time they came close to doing anything interesting with it in the space was a handful of midrange creatures with repeatable activated abilities that had a Process cost (ie, things that actually care if you're actively ingesting instead of just passively letting a few cards hit exile before you cast your 6-drops).
Process being a dud meant Ingest was a dud by default, since it was only ever interesting as an enabler and only really a milquetoast mill mechanic on its own. Though, if they ever seriously revisit mill decks--and they probably shouldn't--mill to exile is something they should keep in mind, since it does what mill is supposed to do without crossing wires into the realm of absurd graveyard shenanigans.
charlequin
Banned
BFZ was the set so bad we could actually get it right in initial impressions, lol
I think it's pretty fair for them to blame the switchover process to the 2-block world for a lot of this, because the problems are so deep-seated and so illogical that it really only makes sense from a "we didn't approach this right then ran out of time" perspective.
Maybe the biggest reason th set it shit is that it got super boned by the format change they just decided to implement with little lead time. The planning was terrible.
Also it occurs to me that new phyrexia really benefitted from the slower build up that a three block set can give you. I don't see any two block set being as effective.
Also it occurs to me that new phyrexia really benefitted from the slower build up that a three block set can give you. I don't see any two block set being as effective.
Just think about all the stuff they did for Scars block.
First, they announced that the third set would either be called New Phyrexia or Mirroden Pure, and put out packaging images for both. Then, in Scars of Mirroden, they clearly put watermarks on ever non-land card in the set. For the Mirroden Besieged prerelease, they made special booster boxes with boosters that had exclusively Phyrexian or exclusively Mirarin cards, which was the first time they had ever done something like that for a Prerelease. At Gameday, you could enter with either a Mirrarin or a Phyrexian deck (a deck with at least 10 watermarked cards of one faction and none of the other), and take home a special preview card from the next set- a Pristine Talisman with the Mirroden Pure logo, or a Surture Priest with a New Phyrexia logo. Finally, when New Phyrexia came out, it really felt like a set where one side had won the war. 90% of the cards were Phyrexian Watermarked, the 10% of Mirran cards were mostly bland and useless junk cards.
Also of note was that like BFZ-OTK-SOI/EDM, there were 3 different, unique Phyrexian mechanics, all of which were home runs. Infect was a true threat (if probably too strong/undercosted) that changed how you played the game, Living Weapon was a cool twist on an iconic Mirroden mechanic that had great flavor and gameplay, and Phyrexian Mana something completely unique, was a way to make cards of all colors feel more evil (by giving them a traditionally black mechanic without making it not feel like a multicolored card), and was completely broken to the point where they should probably ban every card with the mechanic in Modern.
Compare those 3 mechanics to the 3 Eldrazi mechanics they used- Processing/Ingesting, Colorless Mana, and Delirium. Delirium is a cool mechanic, and Colorless is unique and does a great job of selling that these creatures are different than anything we have ever seen before.... but man, Processing/Ingesting is probably the worst mechanic to headline a set since... Prowl in Morningtide?
Amonkhet hype isnt hitting me as strongly as previous blocks. Just look at what they did for Kaladesh- they rented out a building for a weekend, and made a big deal out of showing off the set and its ideas. They did a stage show to reveal the set, the world, the mechanics, and spoilers, they had professional cosplayers dressed as Saheli and other characters, they had panels that were livestreamed about the story and what went in to crafting the world. Hell, they even did some dumb/fun stuff, like having LSV play a game against a fan with decks featuring new cards, with the cosplayers and R&D members running in and providing cheats for the fan.
For years, they had had big events at PAX tied to the fall set, and they always did a good job of hyping you for the set by not just giving you a bunch of cool spoilers at once, but by making a spectical out of Magic. But you dont even need PAX to build hype- for Shadows Over Innestrad, they had a Triple GP weekend where they built 3 Innestrad themed escape rooms, all of which led to spoilers, and some fun video content.
Meanwhile, Amonkhet has been getting hyped like a small expanision has in the past- just the usual articles and the like. They really should have had an event at PAX East or something, because this just feels underwhelming compared to what they have been doing for new blocks the past several years
For years, they had had big events at PAX tied to the fall set, and they always did a good job of hyping you for the set by not just giving you a bunch of cool spoilers at once, but by making a spectical out of Magic. But you dont even need PAX to build hype- for Shadows Over Innestrad, they had a Triple GP weekend where they built 3 Innestrad themed escape rooms, all of which led to spoilers, and some fun video content.
Meanwhile, Amonkhet has been getting hyped like a small expanision has in the past- just the usual articles and the like. They really should have had an event at PAX East or something, because this just feels underwhelming compared to what they have been doing for new blocks the past several years
Unless he runs hive mind then his opponent loses because you cast a bunch of pacts then pass the turn and your opponent loses the game because they also copied them.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Kirblar is right though - BFZ should have been the Attack on Titan block, but they were too stupid and figured they'd ape the shittiest parts of the MCU instead.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I have to wonder if Hasbro is looking at the cost of those events on the one hand and sales figures on the other...
Exert will cause a new zoo deck to form because having a 4/4 flying haste for 5 mana that flame smashes creatures a turn and a 4/4 life link for two mana is way too good to not build around. Naya exert seems great to me
I'm very glad we're not paying Wil Wheaton with our MTG money again.
That's one of Amulet Bloom's win cons.
It's a great win con for a great deck.
Or you can just rip Bonfire off the top.
Curving the 3/1 exert guy into Always Watching will be sweet.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Imperfected
Member
I realized partway through this whole post-mortem that I completely forgot about Ally/Rally. Man, was that ever not a thing. At least Ingest and Devoid were supposed to be tack-on mechanics.
I wonder if Allies could have been interesting if their gimmick instead was enabling cross-tribal synergy. Something like, "Ally (This card has all creature subtypes of all Ally cards you control.)" That is, obviously, assuming that they invested all the wasted effort put into Ally Tribal/Rally cards into more standard tribal support instead.
I wonder if Allies could have been interesting if their gimmick instead was enabling cross-tribal synergy. Something like, "Ally (This card has all creature subtypes of all Ally cards you control.)" That is, obviously, assuming that they invested all the wasted effort put into Ally Tribal/Rally cards into more standard tribal support instead.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The problem with Allies is that the core gameplay of the tribe is boring (ETB + ETB triggers again for more allies) and makes for lame limited decks.
I mean, the most powerful card in Standard produces allies every turn and the associated mechanics of the Tribe are still irrelevant. It makes it funnier because Gideon is unbeatable in BFZ limited anyways, but making sure he randomly produces more ETB triggers if you have literally any other allies is just comedy.
I mean, the most powerful card in Standard produces allies every turn and the associated mechanics of the Tribe are still irrelevant. It makes it funnier because Gideon is unbeatable in BFZ limited anyways, but making sure he randomly produces more ETB triggers if you have literally any other allies is just comedy.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I don't know why Curator of Mysteries bothers me so much. I just feel like a 4/4 Flying with upside for 4 doesn't feel like the right price in blue.
Battle for Zendikar was weird because for the first time ever it felt like a set from another card game. Magic has always been really good about using cohesive mechanics in its sets, and avoided the pitfalls most other ccgs fall into. Yet for some reason in Battle for Zendikar they repeated not one but two of the cardinal sins from other, now dead, ccgs.
A) mechanics that don't do anything by the self - devoid just doesn't do anything when it's on a card on its own. This reminds me of how setting based ccgs (like lord of the rings, Star Trek, Babylon 5 ETC) would stick key words on cards that didn't do anything just because at some point they might. At least in those type of games the keywords might carry some meaning outside the game (e.g. If a card says Ranger on it in Lord of the Rings even if it doesn't do anything it at least conveys some information and story). Devoid dint do that at all.
B) parasitic, overly complex mechanics that rely on multiple separate bits to work and don't do anything on their own. Defile and Ingest to be precise. These mechanics don't work because they are too random - ccgs already have a high randomisation factor in the , but adding in complex mechanics that have to come out paired or more increases that even further, to the point where the pay-off just isn't work the reward. Good example would be site capture from lord of the rings, which allowed players playing the evil side of their deck to capture locations as the game progressed. Problem was, just like ingest, capturing sites was tricky because it relied on doing certain things with certain cards (all different), and capturing sites did absolutely nothing on its own. You had to have a completely separate set of cards to then deliver the pay-off.
I do find it weird that when their design and development process broke down, they ended up making the most 'non-magic' set I can think of going back to when I started playing properly in Urza's. There's things in Battle that I don't think any other magic set has done quite so strongly, and it gives it weirdly alien vibes compared to what they normally make.
A) mechanics that don't do anything by the self - devoid just doesn't do anything when it's on a card on its own. This reminds me of how setting based ccgs (like lord of the rings, Star Trek, Babylon 5 ETC) would stick key words on cards that didn't do anything just because at some point they might. At least in those type of games the keywords might carry some meaning outside the game (e.g. If a card says Ranger on it in Lord of the Rings even if it doesn't do anything it at least conveys some information and story). Devoid dint do that at all.
B) parasitic, overly complex mechanics that rely on multiple separate bits to work and don't do anything on their own. Defile and Ingest to be precise. These mechanics don't work because they are too random - ccgs already have a high randomisation factor in the , but adding in complex mechanics that have to come out paired or more increases that even further, to the point where the pay-off just isn't work the reward. Good example would be site capture from lord of the rings, which allowed players playing the evil side of their deck to capture locations as the game progressed. Problem was, just like ingest, capturing sites was tricky because it relied on doing certain things with certain cards (all different), and capturing sites did absolutely nothing on its own. You had to have a completely separate set of cards to then deliver the pay-off.
I do find it weird that when their design and development process broke down, they ended up making the most 'non-magic' set I can think of going back to when I started playing properly in Urza's. There's things in Battle that I don't think any other magic set has done quite so strongly, and it gives it weirdly alien vibes compared to what they normally make.
- Status