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Relating to an opposite sex protagonist
- Thread starter CrowdChant
- Start date
I was just saying that there's nothing wrong in it in reply to you wondering if there was a reasonable explanation. I wasn't sure if we were in agreement or not. Just giving my opinion on your pondering. I have a preference to wanting to play somebody different than myself, someone else has a preference to wanting to play somebody similar. I see both as being equal, normal, and valid. Do you agree?
The reason the TLOU ending worked so well is because the player was in the shoes of somebody doing something terrible. I don't think it would work as well in a book or a movie since the person wouldn't be pretending to be Joel. It made people really uncomfortable, at the same time as they understand completely why they were doing it, which was powerful.
I don't think people are missing out being friends with you if you send your hypothetical friends off to the desert because they can't relate to videogame characters. Friendship has so many more aspects. I don't think this warrants an explanation unless you are a social cripple and can't relate.
to add to this topic: half my souls chars are always female and female protagonists are fine unless the game is bad
nkarafo
Member
I don't care about my character's gender, as long as they don't make a fuss about it. For instance, i used to like Samus but after the Zero Suit became a thing (and the heels) she looks like the standard, generic sexy girl for 12 year boys to drool on. And yes, i know about the fast ending easter eggs, don't bother posting pictures.
Generally though, i prefer bland, silent protagonists. This way it makes it easier for me to feel like it's myself who is sucked in the game world and i can feel however i want. Something like Dark Souls, Zelda, Halflife and Portal.
Generally though, i prefer bland, silent protagonists. This way it makes it easier for me to feel like it's myself who is sucked in the game world and i can feel however i want. Something like Dark Souls, Zelda, Halflife and Portal.
SunBroDave
Member
There was a great interview recently between Druckmann and Hulst, where Druckmann laments the fact that many male gamers say they can't relate to female protagonists, yet have no problem relating to male protagonists who murder thousands and thousands of people over the course of a game.
It's sad really.
It's sad really.
I don't get it. What does "relating to someone" mean? Being able to show empathy, or imagining you are the other person/being in their shoes? If it's the former and you can't feel empathy for someone not your gender or race, then you might have psychological disorders (or well, you're truly a racist or sexist, if that's the right term here).
Personally, when I play games I never ever think I am the protagonist, never try to make the protagonist look like myself either when there's a character creator. Playing games is like watching a movie or reading a book. I experience other characters' stories from a 1st- or 3rd-person perspective.
Personally, when I play games I never ever think I am the protagonist, never try to make the protagonist look like myself either when there's a character creator. Playing games is like watching a movie or reading a book. I experience other characters' stories from a 1st- or 3rd-person perspective.
John Kowalski
Banned
I try and relate to all things, even inanimate objects. Knowing and internalizing how people and things can experience things differently is a good thing to do.
I can't speak for others, but as a male (although I don't necessarily identify well with many aspects of being a Male, so this is definitely something to do with it) I often find myself more interested in female protags simply because it offers an experience different from my own.
I mean, my favourite fictional protag is Ripley, I often roll a female character when I get the choice. I'm not saying this to brag about how wonderfully progressive I am, but I've always been interested in the perspective of the opposite gender when it comes to telling a story of experiencing a game in general.
I think any kind of preference to stick with your own gender must come with some kind of sexist or prejudice or homophobic root cause. This doesn't make you a hater in any way, but we've all grown with prejudices we've needed to unpick and understand, even the best of us would be prone to these things.
And I definitely think if you find yourself stuck only playing your own gender, there would be benefits in exploring the reasons why.
I mean, my favourite fictional protag is Ripley, I often roll a female character when I get the choice. I'm not saying this to brag about how wonderfully progressive I am, but I've always been interested in the perspective of the opposite gender when it comes to telling a story of experiencing a game in general.
I think any kind of preference to stick with your own gender must come with some kind of sexist or prejudice or homophobic root cause. This doesn't make you a hater in any way, but we've all grown with prejudices we've needed to unpick and understand, even the best of us would be prone to these things.
And I definitely think if you find yourself stuck only playing your own gender, there would be benefits in exploring the reasons why.
nkarafo
Member
It's the opposite for me. The reason games clicked for me in the first place was that they weren't like movies or books. They gave you a chance to put your own self into a different world and explore it. Having a world with an interesting lore to put my self into is much more important than the character i'm controlling.
Patterbits
Member
Such a flimsy excuse. Especially because when people say "I can't relate to X" they just mean, "I don't want to be X". It's weird to me though, do people actually try to identify with video game characters? I usually don't unless it's an RPG and literally MY character. Otherwise I look at characters in games the same way I do movies, shows, and books. I like them simply as characters who are not me, and yes sometimes I empathize with them. The closest I've got to blurring those lines is the Witcher only because Geralt is already an established character and yet you can kind of make him your own version of Geralt.
But in most games you're still playing a pre-determined story and character, or do you only play games with silent protagonists and heavy use of dialog choices? Do the Bethesda games have silent main protagonists, btw? Just realized that I didn't know, lol.
Obliterator
Member
I think one thing worth remembering is people play games for different reasons. Not all of them are invested in the story and see games as a way to project themselves into a different world and blow some shit up. For those types of gamers I for sure understand the preference of wanting to play as your own gender. If it's more just an escape where you are playing a sort of "pretend" version of yourself wanting to identify with who you are playing as makes sense.
On the other hand if you are playing games for their story purposes I really don't get why you would have an issue with playing as the opposite gender. There are plenty of stories that work great when coming from a particular gender and it provides a different perspective.
It really comes down to why you play games and I don't think it's correct to crucify people who favor playing as a certain gender unless it comes from a hateful place.
On the other hand if you are playing games for their story purposes I really don't get why you would have an issue with playing as the opposite gender. There are plenty of stories that work great when coming from a particular gender and it provides a different perspective.
It really comes down to why you play games and I don't think it's correct to crucify people who favor playing as a certain gender unless it comes from a hateful place.
zelhawks37
Member
I can see where he is coming from and I know people that dislike playing as female main characters, but I personally don't mind. As long as they are a good character, I'll enjoy the game just as much. Heck, Estelle from Trails in the Sky is my favorite main character of all time.
nkarafo
Member
Why is this weird? Isn't that why people ask for representation in video games?
Try to identify? I'm not sure people go out of their way to try in general, more that they simply do relate to well written characters.
I don't relate to my blank slate female avatar in FFXIV, but I do relate to Ellie in Left Behind. I didn't have to try to relate, I just did because the game made her a very human character (even more so than TLoU did).
As a player, all you are doing is simply experiencing the character's story or journey. That's why games have game over, because the player messed up, not the character. In the context of the story, the character is nearly perfect, you the player are not.
You can relate to some of the character's experiences, but rarely should you be fully able to relate to a character. This means that the excuse of not being able to play as or relate to a character of the opposite sex is simply coming from a place of privilege.
It must be nice living in a world where you can only play characters that are the same gender or race as you. I mean, I have had to "relate" to people completely different from me for almost 2 decades.
You can relate to some of the character's experiences, but rarely should you be fully able to relate to a character. This means that the excuse of not being able to play as or relate to a character of the opposite sex is simply coming from a place of privilege.
It must be nice living in a world where you can only play characters that are the same gender or race as you. I mean, I have had to "relate" to people completely different from me for almost 2 decades.
I don't understand this need to relate. It's great if you can/do, but as long as the writing/story/framing device is good, I view games as being along for the ride in someone else's story anyway.
See no reasoning to the argument that people can't play a game because the character isn't the same gender or something.
See no reasoning to the argument that people can't play a game because the character isn't the same gender or something.
Baleoce
Member
People completely lose me as soon as they say that they have to be able to relate to the character in order to play the game. How on earth do you know beforehand? You can relate to elements or events in the game. Or certain things that happen to the character or things you find out about them or whatever. Inherently, how do you know that you don't relate to that character without actually playing the game? And yeah, I don't even understand the compulsion that being able to relate is the be all and end all. It's a story. Just dive into it and see if you like it, like you would with a book or movie.
Or, if you don't like the look of the game, just say you don't like the look of the game.
Or, if you don't like the look of the game, just say you don't like the look of the game.
Maybe they mean they play the game but if they can't relate they can't continue?
Some people can't play a game without a decent story, so I can understand this preference entirely. It's just that sometimes it could come from a problematic place.
It's the latter for them since that's the strength of video games as it regards to stories. You shouldn't be treating games like you're watching a movie or reading a book. That's missing out on the strongest aspect of storytelling in video games, and in that case you might be better off just reading a book or watching a movie.
Why do you think there are so many silent protagonists? It seems that you're not understanding the point of a lot of games.
Baleoce
Member
Yeah I'm definitely one of those people. If the story isn't gripping and gives me no reason to continue then there's only so much time I would give it. But for me that rarely comes from a place of not being able to relate. It's usually bad writing, pacing and characters (or a mix of the three) that puts me off.
Obliterator
Member
Yeah you are seeing the perspective problem in a lot of posts here. Your seeing a lot of people looking at this from a "narrative / story" stand point.
Again not all gamers are playing games for those reasons. Some are essentially using them as an escape to project themselves into a different world to destroy stuff / let lose and the plot / characters don't mean anything to them.
Again it just depends on the reason the person is playing games in the first place. Not to say there aren't sexist shit bags who don't want to play games with women in them because they hold fucked up view points, there are. But painting all people who prefer to play as their own sex in a negative light is not the correct/ accurate stance to take
Again not all gamers are playing games for those reasons. Some are essentially using them as an escape to project themselves into a different world to destroy stuff / let lose and the plot / characters don't mean anything to them.
Again it just depends on the reason the person is playing games in the first place. Not to say there aren't sexist shit bags who don't want to play games with women in them because they hold fucked up view points, there are. But painting all people who prefer to play as their own sex in a negative light is not the correct/ accurate stance to take
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
Honestly, as I get older I find I'm losing the energy to debate these issues. If some guy "can't relate" with a wonderful lead character like Aloy simply because she doesn't have a dick, and misses out on a great game like Horizon because of that, well then fuck it. It's his loss.
Meanwhile, the march down the long road toward better diversity and representation of the characters in our games will continue. Thankfully.
Meanwhile, the march down the long road toward better diversity and representation of the characters in our games will continue. Thankfully.
shawnbuddy
Member
I've got no problem with it. Sometimes I relate to the female protagonist better. I related to Ellie more than Joel, for example, I guess because I've never had kids.
For the romance options in things like Bioware games I do tend to make my female characters lesbian, though. The male options are usually less appealing to me. Except for Thane, best husbando ever even with the tragic disease thing. Actually makes it more romantic.
For the romance options in things like Bioware games I do tend to make my female characters lesbian, though. The male options are usually less appealing to me. Except for Thane, best husbando ever even with the tragic disease thing. Actually makes it more romantic.
Weltall Zero
Member
I actually have an easier time relating to an opposite sex protagonist, for whatever reason. It might simply be because I grew up reading books with female main characters like Contact or that use female pronouns like the middle part of The Gods Themselves. Or it might be because the first games with actual developed stories I played had main or very central female characters that really stood out, like Phantasy Star II-IV or Final Fantasy IV - VI. Or simply because I grew up in a home where I was the only male. But whatever the reason I find male main characters almost uniformly bland and uninteresting, and female main characters much cooler by default.
As an extension, my first (and often only) character in any game that lets you select your gender is female. My Shephard, my main WoW character, my main GW2 character, my first character in every Dark Souls games, my Starbound character, etc. are all female.
It's also true that I like to play characters that are as different as myself as possible, so I never pick human if there's pretty much any other race available.
As an extension, my first (and often only) character in any game that lets you select your gender is female. My Shephard, my main WoW character, my main GW2 character, my first character in every Dark Souls games, my Starbound character, etc. are all female.
It's also true that I like to play characters that are as different as myself as possible, so I never pick human if there's pretty much any other race available.
Your friend has issues.
I think this is it exactly. If you just care about a good story, gender isn't a problem but if your looking to play a game as a form of escapism and look at the protagonist as an avatar that represents you then I can understand why people want the same gender main character. They want a character that they can use to satisfy their power fantasies with. Nothing wrong with that.
MetalGearZed
Member
Characters don't even have to be human for me to relate. How do these people enjoy Disney movies?
YianGaruga
Banned
I often find it easier to relate to female characters, at least how they are written and portrayed in games.
Then again I'm not the manliest dude around, so most of the ultra bro alpha characters are completely lost on me
In the end, a good character is a good character though
Then again I'm not the manliest dude around, so most of the ultra bro alpha characters are completely lost on me
In the end, a good character is a good character though
Obliterator
Member
Yeah it's something missed on a lot of people here, which in a way makes sense. This is an enthusiast group of gamers who are going to be invested in things like story / plot / writing etc. It's just for a lot of gamers those things don't matter. The in game person is just an avatar of themselves and a form of power fantasy. In that context it absolutely makes sense why you would want to play as your own gender if you are projecting yourself into the experience.
The problem is when you see BS arguments like "forced representation" or people getting actually angry when games feature women prominently. That's not healthy and is likely coming from a place of hate
I still don't see how - if this preference forbids you to take interest in games that have a female protag - this can't come from a sexist place.
It's cool to have preferences, but if they override certain other things there might be value in exploring the reasons why you have them.
Obliterator
Member
No it doesn't. My wife only likes playing as female characters. She isn't sexist.
The games she like to play are Gears of War Horde, Diablo 3, etc. She exclusively picks female characters and also exclusively plays games she doesn't have to invest in a story in. She is trying to literally play as a fantasy version of herself. The "character" she is playing as is just an Avatar of Emily. She doesn't sit down and play long storied games where she is being forced to "play as someone else". For her the game is just a fantasy extension of herself going around blowing stuff up. She couldn't give a damn about in depth characters of any gender in a game or their motivations, because that's not why she is playing a game in the first place. That doesn't in any way make her sexist.
My sister is the polar opposite. She is heavily invested in plot / story in games and will gladly play as male or female. I'm in the same boat as her.
Games are different things to different people.
The Dude
Member
Yea, it's weird to me. I just play whatever games that look like the type of games I enjoy, it needs to be no deeper. Its a story that someone else is telling, why should someone have to relate to it, it's bizarre to me.
lukeskymac
Member
That's ridiculous.
You say this as if every single pair of close characters in TLOU were romantic ones.
I was forced to do this because it was rare to find a female protagonist in the first place, much less a good one that wasn't just T&A.
I think it broke my perception of self-insert characters for me though because even in games that allow you to pick genders (like Souls games or DnD), I still tend to play as a dude or as a girl who looks nothing like me.
I think it broke my perception of self-insert characters for me though because even in games that allow you to pick genders (like Souls games or DnD), I still tend to play as a dude or as a girl who looks nothing like me.
YianGaruga
Banned
Some people apparently can relate to videogame characters more easily than relate to real people who play games like this. ha
"How can people exist that do not consume media like I do. It's bizzare"
Vital Tundra
Member
Im a dude that usually plays as the female create a character so I have no problem relating. Honestly besides very specific psychological and biological factors I see no reason why a male can't relate to a female in any other way. They are human just like males are human, and we aren't that different besides the penis and baginas.
I mean, it's not a big deal whether you can relate, that's up to the story being good and you caring about the characters, but when people rag on a game because it doesn't feature the main character as someone that looks more like you, I just don't get it.
I mean, it's not a big deal whether you can relate, that's up to the story being good and you caring about the characters, but when people rag on a game because it doesn't feature the main character as someone that looks more like you, I just don't get it.
Impetuous Imp
Member
I think people are allowed to have preferences in terms of who they play, absolutely - otherwise we wouldn't so frequently discuss the historical lack of good female characters to play and why we lament the lack of diversity in gaming in general. My hope is that most who choose not to play a female character don't do it for sexist reasons, however I'm fairly sure that's often exactly the case- that's the only point at which I take issue with it.
I'm personally glad TLOU worked the way it did - but I do think that's the point where you meet resistance from those who approach gaming from a certain standpoint.
From many of the negative responses I've seen to the end of that game, it seems like people who choose to insert themselves or otherwise somehow identify with the character had trouble reconciling the fact that this was Joel's story and not their own. Some people were able to step beyond that and come to terms with it, others couldn't and it ruined a large part of the experience for them.
And again, I think whether that translates well to a book or not is probably more up to the reader's approach. For me, pressing the buttons in a scripted game isn't much different from turning a page in that I'm simply progressing the story. In both games and books, I rarely (maybe never? not sure) feel like I am pretending to be that character but more that I'm along for the ride. I want to be able to empathize, which doesn't require me to feel like I *am* that person, but I want the character well-written enough to make their actions understandable even if I would ultimately act & respond differently. My lack of desire to play something like the "bad" routes of Infamous is more because I don't really think I'd want, or even maybe be able, to empathize with an "evil" character, and seeing the world go to hell doesn't sound like much fun to me - hell, I feel bad just chasing down the crying deer in Tomb Raider. I've read some psychological thrillers where you are inside the head of a a psychopath. I found it fascinating and horrifying at the same time.
I thought I would. I certainly in my early gaming days gravitated towards games with male protags. After playing games like Horizon, both new Tomb Raiders etc. I've learned I never actually gave a shit, not if the game is good anyways. It must've just been something I psyched myself into thinking was an issue. Right now gaming wise I could care less. With games that let you choose what the character looks like though, I make it look like me, a black male.
2nd post nailed it.
Yeah I was being stupid. You're right.
Obliterator
Member
Yeah it's people looking at it like everyone cares about "strong characters" and "good writing" in games. Part of the reason MMOs are so massively popular is because of gamers who don't care about any of that. They can create fantasy avatar versions of themselves and have their own power trips. Also coincidently MMOs also skew hugely favorably with female gamers compared to many other genres. Why do you think that is? Because they offer a method of creating female avatars of themselves unlike many traditional games that offer strictly dudes.
Many people missing the point of people wanting to play as their own gender are massively mistaking it as sexism and having poor view points on the opposite gender. That is 100% the case is some / many instances, but there are also tons where it's not applicable at all.
Here's the thing, the conversation is complex.
I could reason that women have far less representation in gaming, therefore a preference to play as female and never male is more understandable than a Male wanting to always play male.
I remain fairly convinced that most males who cant bring themselves to play a female character harbour some form of sexism, even if its subconscious. Women will be perfectly capable of this too. The preference comes from /somewhere/, and simply saying "it's just a preference" or "some people just like it" isn't a reasonable enough explanation because the topic is far more complex than that.
Obliterator
Member
No, you are just totally missing the point that not all games are a story to gamers about "other people". You are overlooking a huge swath of gamers that quite literally don't care whatsoever and are playing games as an interactive power trip version of themselves.
There are sexist assholes who don't want to play as women because they hold poor views on women in general. That isn't an accurate representation of all gamers who like to play as their own sex.