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Digibro: 'Metroidvania' Needs to Die
- Thread starter Tye The Czar
- Start date
Most metroidvanias to me have more inspiration from Iga Castlevanias than Metroid. I find the level design from Igavanias and Metroid quite different and most clones aren't even trying to be similar to Metroid's IMO. Notable exceptions are Axiom Verge and, from what I played, Hollow Knight.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Because the label was specific to Castlevania games when they became increasingly more like Metroid. Why the term bled out to other games I have honestly no idea other than laziness
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Alot of people decided to call games not made by Koji Igarashi, metroidvania instead of igavania. Thats dumb.
The only real difference between zelda, metroidvania and castlevania is zeldas a sidescroller.
They should of been called zeldavania.
You know these games arent even similar at all though!!
The only real difference between zelda, metroidvania and castlevania is zeldas a sidescroller.
They should of been called zeldavania.
You know these games arent even similar at all though!!
Sword Of Doom
Member
Yeah same here. They're Metroid like games.
Also my biggest issue with "metroidvania" is that most of them are more tedious than good
That actually makes sense.
Weltall Zero
Member
There are a few other examples too, but they're far and few within (the only one I can remember is DOTA clone -> MOBA).
It seems to be the "clone" ones that don't stick around. Perhaps if people had used "rogue clone" or "metroid clone", we'd be using "procedural permadeath dungeon crawler" or "whatever the hell one is supposed to replace Metroidvania with, which is something rarely discussed when criticising the term" instead.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Except this argument misses the mark on why the term Metroidvania exists in the first place. It has nothing to do with platforming vs. action-RPG really (and frankly, that is a facile argument to make considering you're just stating the obvious about differences from a gameplay standpoint). It has more to do with how similarly both franchises treat exploration within the format.
SoundPulse
Banned
Didn't expect to see Digibro on the gaming side. I think I remember this video from when it came out like last year.
I agree, though. I've never liked the term, and it mostly seems to be used in regards to traits found in Super Metroid more than SotN and later Castlevania games.
There's no reason to say "weeb".
I agree, though. I've never liked the term, and it mostly seems to be used in regards to traits found in Super Metroid more than SotN and later Castlevania games.
There's no reason to say "weeb".
D.Lo
Member
I agree with the premise.
It would be okay if the term referred to Metroid design with RPG levelling and item cruft. But it's used to refer to stuff that have no RPG elements, so those games are really just Metroid-like.
Now we have nonsense like people calling Wonder Boy III 'Metroidvania' when it pre-dated Castlevania's involvement in the genre name. Ironically it was actually quite similar to Castlevania II, but to then say it's okay to call it Metroidvania because of that is to back-port a 2000s term to 1989.
It would be okay if the term referred to Metroid design with RPG levelling and item cruft. But it's used to refer to stuff that have no RPG elements, so those games are really just Metroid-like.
Now we have nonsense like people calling Wonder Boy III 'Metroidvania' when it pre-dated Castlevania's involvement in the genre name. Ironically it was actually quite similar to Castlevania II, but to then say it's okay to call it Metroidvania because of that is to back-port a 2000s term to 1989.
yeah laziness. Igarashi was crapping them out yearly (probably not his fault, Konami with low budgets etc), so they became a ubiquitous example of the format. It was easy for lazy reviewers to call new Super Meroid-like games 'like those Metroidvanias' and it stuck.
Agreed, good summary.
Yeah his argument in the video is backwards, just like the argument that Wonder Boy III can have the term because of CV2, it doesn't take into account the history of the term's development.
Weltall Zero
Member
Because originally the term meant "Castlevania games that are like Metroid", to distinguish them from the strictly linear previous entries. Metroid (or any non-Castlevania game) would not be a Metroidvania under the old use of the term. It's only after the genre became popular that people repurposed the word (path of least resistance and all that).
-Mutsukki-
Member
But the franchise itself never explored this format until the very first Metroidvania, which is SoTN. This term existed to differentiate pre and pos-SOTN Castlevania and nothing more
Sword Of Doom
Member
This actually makes a lot of sense now
Weltall Zero
Member
I like Metroidlike, it has a nice ring to it and it's unambiguous as to what it means, as unlike Castlevania, Metroid has no mainline games outside the genre. As a bonus, it pretty much pioneered the genre.
Now all we have to do is brainwash the entire population of Earth to start using it... :/
-Mutsukki-
Member
I may be wrong, but I think the first time this term was broadly used outside of Castlevania was Guacamelee. Before that I've never heard anyone describe something like Cave Story or Shadow Complex as "Metroidvania" (and I honestly don't think people even attribute that genre to Cave Story to this day).
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
So's your mom!
Shadow complex definitely was described as a metroidvania, people in here would call it so in Shadow Complex threads.
Well, the ones who weren't focusing on who wrote the story anyways.
Weltall Zero
Member
Uh, I don't see any issue at all with using a modern term to refer to an older game. DOTA is still a MOBA and Doom is still a FPS no matter how many years after their releases the genre terms were invented. And this doesn't change because the genre term contains a more recent game name than the one being described: a roguelike earlier than Rogue is still a roguelike.
ClevieSoul
Neo Member
-Mutsukki-
Member
With the remaster I can see that, but I mean back in 2009? I guess that's a possibilty, but I have a feeling I only saw strong use of it aroung when Guacamelee was being released and more games like that gained traction. But eh, like I said I could be very wrong.
Pretty much. It gives a very good point of reference as to what to expect from a game.
This struggle won't be over in our lifetime, but one day our children, or our children's children, or our children's children's grandchildren will finally agree that we deserve more than "Metroidvania."
mr teaspoon
Member
Don't worry about Metroidvania, let's just keep an eye out for the people unironically saying "shmup" out loud.
Guacamelee was an amazing Metroidvania. I've finished it like 5 times by now.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Fuck that. Is it like Rogue? Not at all? Then it's not a goddamn roguelike.
I would argue that Simon's Quest was the first game that felt like a Metroodvania despite that name not existing at the time.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Yeah I think Roguelike is in an even worse position. It's older and for the longest time I wasn't even aware that it was because it was based on a game named Rogue
That is how terms work. If they describe a thing then they describe a thing regardless of when the term came into use vs when the thing was made. Should we find the exact date the term "platformer" came into being and stop using it on anything before it came into existence? Because I can guarantee you when Super Mario Bros first came out it wasn't called a platformer.
Environmental Station Alpha, Axiom Verge, and Hollow Knight are even better (I enjoyed Guacamelee a lot too).
Surprised nobody caught this instantly.
We can thank this man right here for this term spreading.
D.Lo
Member
As a child of the 80s, genre names changing annoy me.
- Double Dragon was a 'Fighting game'.
- Street Fighter II came along, so Double Dragon now got renamed to a 'beat em up'. Okay whatever, seems to me both terms could describe either but anyway...
- Now someone tries to tell me Double dragon is a 'Belt scroller'.
- Gradius is a shooter. Short for Space Shooter. One of the oldest genres all the way back to 1978 with Space Invaders.
- But now these Quake/Goldeneye first person shooting games are popular, so they start to be referred to as 'shooters'. So now Gradius is a 'Shoot em up'
- Now for some reason we must shorten it to shmup? So why isn't Double Dragon a bmup?
Metroidvania was well in use as general thing at that point. I know Cave Story was called a Metroidvania when it first showed up.
Yup.
It's easy shorthand that gives people an immediate general idea what to expect. Same thing with people who complain about the word SHMUP.
The Illiterati
Member
When Symphony of the Night became a quintessential "metroid like" is when the it earned its place in the "metroidvania" pantheon. There's no better term to quickly highlight the fact the type of exploration and upgrades the games feature.
"Oh I absolutely love the Metroid-LIKE Hollow Knight which also coincidentally features melee combat and shops like Castlevania IGA games but my head is too far up my own ass to call it a metroidvania"
"Oh I absolutely love the Metroid-LIKE Hollow Knight which also coincidentally features melee combat and shops like Castlevania IGA games but my head is too far up my own ass to call it a metroidvania"
OrbitalBeard
Member
The term makes a ton of sense for SotN and its follow-up titles, but it makes little sense otherwise, as it gives too much credit to Castlevania. It'd be like calling 3D platformers MarioBandicoots.
At the end of the day though, it obviously doesn't matter and I get why the name has remained popular.
At the end of the day though, it obviously doesn't matter and I get why the name has remained popular.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
What about jmetroidvanias and wmetroidvanias?
SoundPulse
Banned
Arguing about people using words he doesn't like, in a way he doesn't like, is at least a part of his thing.
-Mutsukki-
Member
I'm... pretty sure it wasn't. Google returns me nothing for the year 2004 through 2006. I was there too and I clearly do not remember people lazingly refering to it as Metroidvania. In fact, I actually found a pretty interesting commentary from gamespite.net in 2006.
Which is exactly what I was saying: Metroidvanias were used exclusively to describe post-SOTN Castlevania games.
D.Lo
Member
Symphony of the Night 'quintessential metroid like' what? It's a terrible Metroid game.
My full RTTP review: Symphony of the Night is an amazing looking and sounding wrapper over a weak Super Metroid clone core.
Metroidvania is a great term, since it is very precise. When you describe a game as a Metroidvania, everyone knows that you mean a game that uses a specific world-layout and progression scheme. It works.
Quibbling over the term is silly. For example, sometimes people take umbrage with the word "cheesecake". Those people say it is silly because a cheesecake isn't really a cake. But that doesn't matter, since everyone who knows what a cheesecake is knows what you mean when you use the word "cheesecake".
All that is necessary for language is the ability to convey meaning. Who cares what the origins of the word are.
What we need are more terms in gaming like Metroidvania so we can stop leaning on very imprecise and confusing genre labels like "RPG" or "open-world".
Quibbling over the term is silly. For example, sometimes people take umbrage with the word "cheesecake". Those people say it is silly because a cheesecake isn't really a cake. But that doesn't matter, since everyone who knows what a cheesecake is knows what you mean when you use the word "cheesecake".
All that is necessary for language is the ability to convey meaning. Who cares what the origins of the word are.
What we need are more terms in gaming like Metroidvania so we can stop leaning on very imprecise and confusing genre labels like "RPG" or "open-world".