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[adamsapple]

That's why I don't buy any electronics ever.

oh wait

Yep, we'll all need to get rid of our smart phones and pledge never to buy another one again if that's the case. Or hell, you can lump in pretty much any consumer good here. Clothes, computers, earphones, rings etc etc.

 

[Portugeezer]

Last week, when Bungie talked about the people "killing themselves" to make sure the game was ready in September, my first thought was "it's okay, I'd rather you delay it than make people do that."

but it's telling that the general assumption is that AAA work is rough and That's The Way It Has To Be.

People like to feel like they're working hard, probably meant in good spirit.

 

[tomhan]

I agree with much of what the OP says and think it's horrible to treat employees the way Rockstar San Diego does (if true) but I always cringe when people pick and choose which companies they will buy products from based on how a company is run internally.

There are a couple different reasons why I feel this way.

First, without working there or having close ties with the company it is extremely hard to make a blanket statement that a company treats their employees poorly and using glassdoor to make purchasing decisions is specious reasoning at best.

Second, with the amount of real labor violations occurring at major corporations (both in the US and abroad) if you do a little research you would have to stop buying a lot more than Rockstar games. And I'm not saying that anyone is wrong to do this, in fact it would be great if people did, it just becomes hypocritical when you won't buy RDR2 but will buy products from companies that treat their employees significantly worse.

 

[george_us]

Glassdoor isn't super reliable; usually the people with the most to say are going to be the ones that are the most negative.

Unfortunately, if you support AAA games at all, that means you support some bad practices. It's the price of AAA games these days.

Nah Rockstar in general is one of the worst studios in the industry from what I've heard.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I have some really bad news to tell you about consumer electronics.

I understand replies like this, the whole "everything is fucked so why bother" but theres always have to be a personal line that you draw and being a cynic really doesnt help anybody.

I have an iPhone, bad shit happens in places where iPhones are built, but I need it so I deal with the guilt.

This, however, is entertainment, this is something I dont need. If your game has extended crunch but people are still relatively happy to work there and well rewarded, thats OK, I can deal with that. This is a whole other level.

 

[Chozo_Lord]

90% of the time the only people that post on Glassdoor are people with something negative to say about a company.

Yeah this is like the opposite of survivor bias (non-survivor bias?). You only see the people that couldn't take the pressure. I am not supporting working people to death, but you have to take the reviews with a grain of salt. It's similar to those rate my professor sites where only the people that dropped out or failed rate the teacher and those that do well don't bother to rate them.

 

[cr0w]

Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, OP.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I don't approve of that shit, and much of it wouldn't put up with myself, but that doesn't mean I am not going to buy and play that game. It's easy to argue that by not buying it, you make it worse for those devs you are taking a stand for. If no one plays it, then their hard work was for nothing, and they will get the boot anyway for bad sales. Boycotting it seems like a much worse result for them to be honest.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I strongly sympathize with developers and thier working conditions, but i dont think theres alot consumers can do on our end. Refusing to buy games is just going to result in mass layoffs.

I think the only way to improve thier conditions is to bite the bullet amd unionize, publishers will throw the biggest hissy fit in the history of the industry but thats the only way i can think of to improve conditions.

 

[Neuromancer]

I think Glassdoor reviews are worth giving the benefit of the doubt to. It's not like Metacritic where hundreds of people sometimes flood games they haven't played with 1 star reviews to try to make some sort of point. What would even be the motivation for someone who didn't work there to leave a nasty review?

 

[Endo Punk]

Nah Rockstar in general is one of the worst studios in the industry from what I've heard.

You don't make it to the top without making a few enemies 😂

 

[Robottiimu2000]

Change won't come from consumer boycott, that will never do anything.

I don't want to derail but that my friend is not true.

 

[Forsaken82]

Last week, when Bungie talked about the people "killing themselves" to make sure the game was ready in September, my first thought was "it's okay, I'd rather you delay it than make people do that."

but it's telling that the general assumption is that AAA work is rough and That's The Way It Has To Be.

The problem is marketing. Once marketing drops 10s of millions on a street date, that's when you screw yourselves over. Look at every game that has ever been "delayed" and count how many of them have had an actual release date associated with it, and not a release window.

The other problem of course is just super chill work environments for 90% of the project, until the studio realizes that they only have 4 months until submission and they are now 6 months behind. Poor management is a huge part of the problem. Most studios just don't give a flying fuck about it and just assume people will work bullshit hours 25% of the year. I personally loved my shitty hours a few years ago because I ended up making more money in 3 months of 7 day work weeks than most people make in an entire year, I got paid, I got fed, and I went home and slept, and I repeated this for 7 days a week for 11 weeks. Sometimes it's worth it.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Yeah. I think you're gonna have to swear off most AAA titles. Even studios that seem like they have a great workplace culture sound like they all have soul destroying crunch.

 

[Gbraga]

Agreed about trying to get the attention of people like Schreier. It'll make a bigger impact than just a couple of copies that a thread could.

Hopefully he'll post here to give his two cents.

 

[Endo Punk]

With Red dead and GTA in their resume these folks can work literally anywhere.

 

[franklyshankly]

I don't doubt the work culture at a lot of Devs is pretty bad, but I personally wouldn't trust Glassdoor as a source. If you go by Glassdoor, every single employer on earth is a hellhole.

I think Glassdoor reviews are worth giving the benefit of the doubt to. It's not like Metacritic where hundreds of people sometimes flood games they haven't played with 1 star reviews to try to make some sort of point. What would even be the motivation for someone who didn't work there to leave a nasty review?

I don't think there are many non-employees making reviews. But disgruntled employees who were fired for good reason, passed up for a promotion, or just general dicks can and do embellish and/or make things up.

 

[Parham]

Guess I need to post this again since there are some people who seem to have already forgotten after 2 page. Wow, how the mind slips!

"Allegedly"

Opening admitting to sexually assaulting someone(then banning anyone who called him out for it)

Posting revenge porn with their real full names then another admin(a now jailed pedophile) printed the photos and jacked off over them and sent it to the boyfriend.

You're right, how can we even know if he's guilty or not? HMMMM

Also:

 

[perfectsil]

I have some really bad news to tell you about consumer electronics.

Consumer electronics are made in third world countries with poor working conditions and minimal wages

These developers live/work in San Diego and get paid well

 

[Icyflamez96]

Ever heard of a used game OP?

It sorta baffles me how many people here will not buy a game in order to not support a developer, forgetting that they could just get it used and play it anyway while still achieving their goal.

 

[Futureman]

I don't see why this wouldn't end well, that's a perfectly reasonable stance to take.

Maybe because this is likely true of most AAA games. So if you take a stand on Red Dead 2, you should probably be taking a stand on lots of other games.

Unfortunate that this is the culture we live in.

 

[Not]

Damn.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

So does this mean you could buy the used version and have your cake/eat it too?

Honestly, I get it, I really do, and I support your decision. But, I also understand that not supporting the game sucks for the devs who did work their asses off and are proud of what they made.

 

[PowerThroughLov]

Isn't this a bit of a double edged sword?

By not buying the game you could ultimately end up causing layoffs at the studio. And while these people say working there is terrible, they could always quit if they really wanted to.

Im not trying to say Rockstar has a right to work employees to the ground, far from it, Im just trying to say you could ultimately hurt the people who you are trying to protest for.

 

[Shredderi]

As someone who works in the game industry in San Diego, I can tell you they are infamous here for their work conditions.

Heard too much about them at this point for it all to be a lie told by disgruntled employees.

 

[GodOfVG103]

people act like its normal to have a job that isn't stressful and pays decent money lmao


Plus most of the things you currently use come at the expense of someone else's hard work and sacrifice

 

[bud23]

I have an iPhone, bad shit happens in places where iPhones are built, but I need it so I deal with the guilt.

This, however, is entertainment, this is something I dont need.

lmao

you've gotta be kidding

Top notch hipocrisy

Honest question, OP, do you expect people to take you seriously after that bullshit?

 

[WheelHoss1]

To OP: Don't let the door chafe your butt on the way out.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

Whoever made the tech you are using to make this thread probably had worse conditions.

 

[angelic]

 

[Raging Spaniard]

lmao

you've gotta be kidding

Top notch hipocrisy

Honest question, OP, do you expect people to take you seriously after that bullshit?

Eh like I said, know where things come from and make your choices. I made mine. Im not claiming any superior moral stance here.

 

[Akuun]

deleted

 

[Pagusas]

You lost me OP when you suggested Glassdoor is a reliable site.

 

[StereoVsn]

As someone who owns a successful (non-gaming) software company, the extent to which game software companies have convinced themselves it is somehow a special snowflake where incessant overtime is both necessary and effective, is maddening.

It's exploitative. Full stop. When I visit a university to speak, I always ask a show of hands of who went into CS to make games, and 2/3rds of them shoot up. I then spend a few minutes explaining that if everyone wants the same job, the industry has all the leverage. You can make games, but you'll do so on shitty terms that'll chew you up and spit you out.

Or you could just make boring normal software and enter one of the most prosperous classes of non-inherited wealth in the history of humankind, guarded against almost all the macroeconomic forces threatening your cohort generation.

While boycotts would be effective if they were widespread, I'm not sure it'd be as easy (given the ratio of devs to users) as convincing 20-something dudes that gamedev jobs are a suckers game and boycotting their employment so that the market balances out and decent terms are feasible. (Also won't happen because naive 20-year-old men are a renewable resource.)

This is a good post. I have been involved in Software Dev and IT for quite a long time and I have never seen such abuse heaped on employees as it happens in Game Development. That includes couple stints in startups as well as contracting work, free-lancing, and large firms (all non-game related). There is no way in hell that I would ever work in that particular industry from a personal perspective.

I have no idea how the hell gaming companies get away with this. It's worse then Amazon and Google which are notorious for long working hours and pressure.

Whoever made the tech you are using to make this thread probably had worse conditions.

Nah, that is very doubtful. It is very unusual to see these sorts of working conditions anywhere in non-game related industry. Even Amazon, which probably has the worst working conditions as far as large companies go is not that bad. I know a few folks there, and didn't get on board when I had a chance or two just because I want to see my family at the end of the day. And that's still better then what major game development companies do.

Edit: Seriously people, if you know someone in IT/Software Development in more senior positions or management (non-gaming), ask them. It's almost unheard of for these sort of conditions to exist outside game dev. Talking about US/Canada/EU/UK/AU/etc... I'd imagine India or China may have some issues though.

 

[tomhan]

I understand replies like this, the whole "everything is fucked so why bother" but theres always have to be a personal line that you draw and being a cynic really doesnt help anybody.

I have an iPhone, bad shit happens in places where iPhones are built, but I need it so I deal with the guilt.

This, however, is entertainment, this is something I dont need. If your game has extended crunch but people are still relatively happy to work there and well rewarded, thats OK, I can deal with that. This is a whole other level.

Above I said I agreed with OP about a lot, yet this is a hypocritical, pathetic way to look at the situation and I totally disagree.

 

[Palette Swap]

Glassdoor isn't super reliable; usually the people with the most to say are going to be the ones that are the most negative.

Unfortunately, if you support AAA games at all, that means you support some bad practices. It's the price of AAA games these days.

I take Glassdoor with a giant rock of salt personally. Way too easy to leave fake reviews on that site, and not many people are going on Glassdoor to give good reviews.

The thing is, it can be a meaningful benchmarking tool : either qualitatively because recurring themes can be weak signals about a company, or quantitatively because everything else being equal, other companies perform differently.
Typically, they're sitting at 1.8 when Ubi or EA are 3.0. This says something about working there.

 

[theangrypirate]

I hope you dont wear any clothes that aren't manufactured in the US. Or do you own an iPhone? Children make those things in horrible factories. I guess you don't own a console either do you OP? Tiny hands made lots of the things you enjoy in horrible conditions for very little pay and you probably don't think about that at all. The way Rockstar treats their employees is light years ahead of the way these employees are treated in lots of Asian factories. Do whatever makes you feel better but if you're really concerned with workers rights you probably need to drop gaming all together (and cellphones, and cheap clothes) because there are way worse places to work than Rockstar in San Diego California.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

pretty standard for game/film/tv industry

hard to trust glassdoor as it can easily be skewed by disgruntled former employees. but i believe a lot of those criticisms since it's prevalent in most other studios.


not a good career for people who want a family life.

 

[WoolyNinja]

You not buying the game isn't going to help improve the situation though. At best if we all decided not to buy the game it'd get a lot of people fired which I doubt is what you want. The only solution is for people to stop taking jobs at Rockstar (and other AAA studios). That's the only way this changes.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

OP, thanks for the information. You've definitely given me something to think about.

I do hope one day game makers, the actual work force, unionize.

 

[Shadow Broker]

Last week, when Bungie talked about the people "killing themselves" to make sure the game was ready in September, my first thought was "it's okay, I'd rather you delay it than make people do that."

but it's telling that the general assumption is that AAA work is rough and That's The Way It Has To Be.

Won't Bungie lose the majority of their shares to Activision if they don't release the sequels by a certain date? If that were the case I would do what they're doing just to remain independent and not lose control of my company.

Career decisions. For the most part you don't accidentally fall into a dev career in the video gaming field. They chose this as their career path and if what they make interest me and it is released on a system I want to play it on I'll support them. It's my only way of saying thanks for their hard work.

 

[Outrun]

Good for you OP.

Something needs to change.

Just look at the situation at Tesla...

 

[Freshmaker]

I have some really bad news to tell you about consumer electronics.

You do realize that it's bad there as well right?

 

[shandy706]

Your stance is fine OP.

I'll be playing though. Old West games is one genre I want and love more than anything else.

Work practices and conditions do need a reset though.

 

[Spinluck]

Any word on Nintendo dev cycles?

All I can think of is Sakurai going ham to finish Smash but besides that I don't hear anything to bad about them.

 

[Outrun]

I hope you dont wear any clothes that aren't manufactured in the US. Or do you own an iPhone? Children make those things in horrible factories. I guess you don't own a console either do you OP? Tiny hands made lots of the things you enjoy in horrible conditions for very little pay and you probably don't think about that at all. The way Rockstar treats their employees is light years ahead of the way these employees are treated in lots of Asian factories. Do whatever makes you feel better but if you're really concerned with workers rights you probably need to drop gaming all together (and cellphones, and cheap clothes) because there are way worse places to work than Rockstar in San Diego California.

... And there are a ton of better places to work than R*.

Just because it ain't Foxconn does not make it ok.

 

[Huevos de Oro]

Seems odd to take such a stance on a luxury item, especially when OP himself admits to own other articles which are manufactured in even worse conditions or environments. To each his own I guess, although it should be noted if enough people acted like that and the game didn't sell enough, the studio would get closed and the developers let go. My personal viewpoint is that if you want the game, buy it, but try and make your voice be heard regarding concerns about the work environment. Send emails to management, or Rockstar's HR department or TT or whoever you think would be of help.

 

[Fisty]

TIL you have to be Mother Theresa and absolve yourself of all worldly desires if you want to choose not to buy a video game because you don't like how a company treats it's employees

 

[darscot]

I do hope one day game makers, the actual work force, unionize.

As someone that has been an SE in gaming for many years that would be my last day. It's a competitive business and some people don't do well in that environment. Modern unions is the last thing it needs.

 

[Makonero]

Any word on Nintendo dev cycles?

All I can think of is Sakurai going ham to finish Smash but besides that I don't hear anything to bad about them.

They're in Japan and notoriously tight-lipped. I assume they have crunch like other studios, but they do seem more willing to delay games and they have an amazing retention of staff compared to other studios.