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[ShironRedshift]

I gotta chuckle at people that say they won't buy the game because of the working conditions, but are probably typing their thoughts on a phone that was built under worse conditions, as well as the clothes they are wearing.

Nirvana fallacy:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

This being an imperfect solution that doesn't solve all the problems in the world by itself has no bearing on whether it is or isn't a good idea. Similarly, being a hypocrite is not the worst thing in the world, especially if said hypocrites are nonetheless doing something while those who criticize them continue to do nothing.

Also an ad hominem you quoque at the same time:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/11/Ad-Hominem-Tu-quoque

Someone being a hypocrite and doing the exact opposite of their argument has no bearing on whether the argument itself is valid or not. An obvious and extreme example of this would be a serial killer making an argument eiththe conclusion that murder is a terrible thing that no one should ever do. They'd be a terrible hypocrite for making such an argument, but that would have no bearing on whether the argument itself is valid or not.

Point being, is doing something like this a good idea or not? It either is or isn't and that remains true regardless of how much a hypocrite a person is or whatever. Perhaps ask yourself why your so interested in that rather than whether this idea is on its own merits good or not and wish to diminish it regardless for not fixing the world's ills by itself.

 

[KillLaCam]

So I'm all for wanting people to get better working conditions and would like them to have better work conditions . But at the same time these are generally EXTREMELY skilled workers who should be able to easily get jobs outside of gaming that actually pay well and have reasonable hours. I don't really think it's my place to boycott anything in this situation this would be more on par with the Voice Actors Strike.

I'm in the Tech field I've quit jobs just because I got bored if working at them. Many of these ppl are doing things way more advanced than I am. They should be able to get another job easily.

It's not like it's some highschool dropout I have to lift these crates or im gonna be homeless job or some kinda 3rd world sweatshop kinda job.


Also don't be a contractor.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

They take advantage of people wanting the prestige of developing products at a studio like Rockstar under their belt. So they take advantage of those guys and their energy. Suck em dry to get a product out and turn em over.

It sucks to say it but a LOT of companies do this and not just gaming. A lot of well known "prestigious" companies under-pay their rookies because everyone is chomping at the bit to work there.

Only thing I can say is know what you're getting into. That kinda grind isn't for everyone. I got one month of hard grind in me then I need a fucking break or I'll get very disgruntled. I need to see my family. Can't deal with that kinda grind. If some want to go for it I respect their choice but I couldn't do it.

Work-Home balance needs to be respected.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

So I'm all for wanting people to get better working conditions and would like them to have better work conditions . But at the same time these are generally EXTREMELY skilled workers who should be able to easily get jobs outside of gaming that actually pay well and have reasonable hours. I don't really think it's my place to boycott anything in this situation this would be more on par with the Voice Actors Strike.

I'm in the Tech field I've quit jobs just because I got bored if working at them. Many of these ppl are doing things way more advanced than I am. They should be able to get another job easily.

It's not like it's some highschool dropout I have to lift these crates or im gonna be homeless job or some kinda 3rd world sweatshop kinda job.

Also don't be a contractor.

Actually, Im doing contract work right now and its a great situation. Just wrapped on Spry Fox's new game, a bullet hell roguelike mmo (yes, really) and working with Lab Zero on Indivisible plus another game from a different company, cool puzzle thing. Im working from home, setting my own hours, my fares are met and I work on games I really believe in. If you can do something like this in your field, I highly recommebd it.

From the last page:

I worked in the AAA game industry for a decade. I know plenty of people that either currently work at Rockstar San Diego or have in the past.

If Rockstar San Diego wants to interview you to work at their studio, they straight up tell you they work a minimum of 60 hours per week on a normal schedule with massive crunch during the last year of development. Which is a lot better than basically every other AAA studio which pretends they don't work massive crunch, but they all do. I am not aware of a single AAA development studio that does not work 80 hours per week for the last 6+ months of developing a AAA game.

People willingly sign on to work at Rockstar San Diego knowing they are walking into an endless crunch situation. Most do it because they have decided having a prestigious title like RDR2 on your resume is worth the personal cost.

The "games as a service" games typically require their development teams to work 60 hours per week as the norm with extra hours required for a big patch/update.

There is literally no point to boycott RDR2 over any other AAA game.

Every single developer in the AAA industry knows that working massive crunch is a part of being in the AAA industry. I'm not excusing the shit business practice of crunch, but it is what it is right now and singling Rockstar San Diego out of the bunch is stupid.

Change in working conditions for game developers is not going to come from profit/loss sheets. In fact, any time a studio/publisher suffers a loss it always ends up in layoffs for some employees and the studio then makes the remaining employees even harder and longer to try and make up for the loss.

The only way there will ever be any change in the industry is through laws being passed the penalize studios PLUS workers at said studios willing to report their employer to a government regulatory body.

As an aside, the people working on games are by and large young single people right out of college, with senior positions filled by the "true believers". Almost everybody working at a game studio regularly works voluntary overtime just because they are trying to make the game better. So there's a lot of pressure to work extra time from a cultural standpoint as well as an "employer mandated" standpoint.

My only problem with this logic is that you'd essentially have to boycott nearly every AAA studio in the US. Because Rockstar isn't even one of the worst in this regard. I'm a retired AAA developer of over 8 years myself, and the exploitation of workers with poor compensation, rampant endless crunch and unpaid overtime, poor middle/upper management, and zero-notice firings and layoffs was absolutely everywhere. It was at every studio I personally worked at and every studio that each of my coworkers at each of those studios had previously worked at. Every. Single. One. We'd often share and compare horror stories about the worst AAA studios to work at. It was so bad that it was a badge of honor to have the worst story. We'd also often be surprised why no one else knew what was really going on.

Yep. But, again, it's definitely not a Rockstar exclusive thing, nor are they the worst offender. They're actually one of the few AAA studios that is very up-front about their work culture in the hiring process. Riot Games is also very up-front that the minimum work week is 60 hours and everyone is expected to work additional voluntary overtime on top of that as part of the work culture. That culture is every AAA studio, though. The difference, and one of the odd things about Rockstar's reviews, is that most studios lie to your face about it. I've had many interviews where I point blank ask about work culture only to have Leads/Directors tell me they have a good work/life balance and minimal overtime only to be put into death-march mode not even 3 months later.

I understand where you are coming from, and I absolutely agree with how shitty the AAA business is. I'm literally one of the 30-somethings who got the hell out of AAA that you are referring to. But it seems a bit ignorant to specifically boycott Rockstar now - because not only have they been doing this forever, this is standard practice across the majority of the US-based AAA industry.

Thanks for sharing guys, its good to get more experience based thoughts here.

I think my "intentions" are getting a bit twisted. I'm not calling for a boycott or anything, I'm just sharing information. Since, according to you, these practices are so normal then I shouldn't have made the thread? I shouldn't make people aware of how their games are made? You have experience and I'm not going to question it, but you are dodging the issue when the focus of your argument is whether I buy the game or not.

One important thing Id like to share is how I even received this information. People are saying a lot of "this happens in every AAA studio" and I'm sorry its just false. I originally heard about this from people in other AAA studios, bigger places that Rockstar San Diego. Its not just about the hours, its about all the other stuff on top of that and a lot of you seem to gloss that over. I will personally give 10/12 hour days for a product I really believe in and am motivated to make, that's fine! Its the other stuff that makes it a really big problem.

Did you think the EA spouse situation was stupid because tons of other studios crunch? No, it raised awareness and created change, it improved peoples lives and look, the games came out fine afterwards, who knew!

If you have specific examples on other studios practices, then share them! The only way these companies change their ways is through public exposure. That's what they fear the most, and a lot of you are not understanding that.

I gotta chuckle at people that say they won't buy the game because of the working conditions, but are probably typing their thoughts on a phone that was built under worse conditions, as well as the clothes they are wearing.

I chuckle at people who think they're the first person to say this in this very thread.

 

[Outtrigger888]

The way I see it is that there's plenty of information on the studio and it's work environment that I'm sure people that apply there know about the conditions. People have the choice to put themselves into that situation.

As another user had said, rockstar are pretty upfront with the hours that are expected when you go in for an interview.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The way I see it is that there's plenty of information on the studio and it's work environment that I'm sure people that apply there know about the conditions. People have the choice to put themselves into that situation.

As another user had said, rockstar are pretty upfront with the hours that are expected when you go in for an interview.

Yup. And people want that studio on their resume. Rockstar knows it and it gives them a fuckton of leverage. I personally wouldn't bother. Not worth it to me.

 

[KillLaCam]

Actually, Im doing contract work right now and its a great situation. Just wrapped on Spry Fox's new game, a bullet hell roguelike mmo (yes, really) and working with Lab Zero on Indivisible plus another game from a different company, cool puzzle thing. Im working from home, setting my own hours, my fares are met and I work on games I really believe in. If you can do something like this in your field, I highly recommebd it.

That's really awesome! I just remember seeing a couple years ago that many contractors don't get any real benefits and still have to work on site.

Maybe the bad situations aren't as common as I thought. That's great news


The bullet hell roguelike mmo sounds extremely interesting to me too.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

That's really awesome! I just remember seeing a couple years ago that many contractors don't get any real benefits and still have to work on site.

Maybe the bad situations aren't as common as I thought. That's great news


The bullet hell roguelike mmo sounds extremely interesting to me too.

I mean, I have to pay up the ass for ACA in California, but its OK, I can manage. There are so many opportunities in gaming outside of the top ten NPD that people forget what GAF talks about usually is only a tiny fraction of the industry.

If youre interested in that game, check out the Steam page here (theres no GAF thread since, well, its not on beta yet and Im not gonna make a thread for a game I work on, that doesnt feel right)

 

[EvilMario]

Working in small mobile studios now, coming from AAA, I'd never want to go back. Conditions are hell, the pay is even more shit ( don't work in games if money is a top priority) and you'll seldom be lucky to actually work on something you love.

 

[Golgo 13]

It's probably been said in this thread many times, but...

There's very poor working conditions related to most products we consume.

Ever bought a new car? Dealerships work their sales staff 60-70 hours a week and demand a certain level of sales or they start to threaten your job security or play mindgames with you. Not meeting your goals? Fuck your family, come in on your days off, you lazy piece of shit.

Ever eaten at a restaurant? Most likely employees, especially women, are being sexually harassed in some form or another by either the managers, other wait staff, or the kitchen. It's happened in every single restaurant I've worked at.

Ever used a smartphone? Oh yeah... that's right, they had to put up fucking "suicide nets" outside of the office windows because the working conditions were so poor people would rather jump to their deaths.

Work sucks man, and it sucks in LOTS of jobs. If you stopped supporting every product where the employees weren't treated with respect and dignity you'd probably be walking to work, naked, from your cardboard box on the corner. Life is tough.

 

[KillLaCam]

I mean, I have to pay up the ass for ACA in California, but its OK, I can manage. There are so many opportunities in gaming outside of the top ten NPD that people forget what GAF talks about usually is only a tiny fraction of the industry.

If youre interested in that game, check out the Steam page here (theres no GAF thread since, well, its not on beta yet and Im not gonna make a thread for a game I work on, that doesnt feel right)

Thanks, That looks really good. Many of my favorite games as a kid were bullet hell Games, mixing That with a rougelike and mmo Seems like a really cool idea.



Yeah it's really easy to forget how big the game industry really is sometimes

 

[M0nochromatic]

I can understand the sentiment, but my individual participation has no real impact on how people are treated. Whether or not I buy a game, a shirt, or cast a ballot, it only has a tangible effect if everyone else does so as well. The market forces that influence people's purchasing decisions are far beyond our keen. We might be able to make a stink over DRM, but good luck gathering enough consumers together to enact change on behalf of the workers. I don't think a handful of gaffers count as meaningful in that regard.

I applaud your ethics and actions, but I'm afraid I see it as a purely symbolic gesture.

 

[IISANDERII]

Actually first they're going to scale down and then start laying off people, which means the very people you were trying to help are now unemployed and have to find new jobs when they were by and large perfectly content with the ones they had.

No, we're not just trying to help those people, we're helping all future employees and with a little luck, the industry as a whole.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Thanks for sharing guys, its good to get more experience based thoughts here.

I think my "intentions" are getting a bit twisted. I'm not calling for a boycott or anything, I'm just sharing information. Since, according to you, these practices are so normal then I shouldn't have made the thread? I shouldn't make people aware of how their games are made? You have experience and I'm not going to question it, but you are dodging the issue when the focus of your argument is whether I buy the game or not.

The title of your thread is literally "Why I won't be buying Red Dead 2". You also went on to talk about how working conditions have started to affect who you give your dollars to and which companies you support. I don't know how I was supposed to interpret that you didn't mean it literally or that the focus was supposed to be specific only on said working conditions.

Even so, I probably would have made the same comments regardless. Because the basis of the thread is misleading. You made it seem like Rockstar was not only the worst, but one of the only, studios with these practices. A point you continue to reinforce by claiming that:

People are saying a lot of "this happens in every AAA studio" and I'm sorry its just false. I originally heard about this from people in other AAA studios, bigger places that Rockstar San Diego. Its not just about the hours, its about all the other stuff on top of that and a lot of you seem to gloss that over. I will personally give 10/12 hour days for a product I really believe in and am motivated to make, that's fine! Its the other stuff that makes it a really big problem.

It's not false. The severity and frequency of the multitude of poor conditions - things which I mentioned and definitely did not gloss over such as lack of proper compensation, abusive/poor management towards employees, zero-notice firings for arbitrary, often legally-questionable reasons, layoffs even when the game is successful and the studio is turning a profit - those things range wildly from individual studio to studio. But the fundamental existence of them, to some degree, is just about everywhere. I'll concede that saying ALL AAA development studios have every single one to a degree that warrants harsh criticism is probably an exaggeration.

But so is the idea that Rockstar has the worst Glassdoor reviews in the industry. Hell, the last studio I worked for had nearly identical reviews about lack of compensation, crunch, poor management, unwarranted firings and layoffs, all of it and more.

Did you think the EA spouse situation was stupid because tons of other studios crunch? No, it raised awareness and created change, it improved peoples lives and look, the games came out fine afterwards, who knew!

You are not EA spouse. You have no evidence that Rockstar is breaking laws and contracts - which is what EA spouse was actually about, not overtime - but compensation. The results of the EA lawsuit only benefit two classes of developers and only guaranteed them overtime compensation under specific circumstances and job codes. EA almost immediately went right back to sweatshop-like working conditions, reorganized to skirt as many of the legalities of new employment laws they could and continue on with business as usual. My source for this? I worked across the damn street from the main EA campus for 3 years. Some of those horrors stories I mentioned earlier were from EA employees themselves after the conclusion of the lawsuit.

If you have specific examples on other studios practices, then share them! The only way these companies change their ways is through public exposure. That's what they fear the most, and a lot of you are not understanding that.

I have. Many times. I've even spoken to game journalists about it before. There's tons of examples on developer forums, on Gamasutra, in the IGDA, on GAF even. I mentioned Riot my last post. ArenaNet also told me in the interview that 60 hours is the standard week and their starting compensation was below industry average. It doesn't seem to make a difference because, as you have seen for yourself, most people either don't care, don't believe you, immediately question your experience or validity as a developer, or will point to some other industry that has equally long hours as a reason to "quit bitching".

I'm not asking you to quit bitching. I'm saying that going in on one company has demonstrably proven to do very little in the long term. Even EA spouse didn't really affect anyone but certain programmers and artists at EA immediately following the conclusion of the lawsuit. It didn't change the industry-wide practices, it just made companies smarter about how they implement them - from a legal standpoint.

It's not a Rockstar problem, it's a AAA development problem. The solutions come from pressure on and from sources like the IGDA and ESA. I mean, I'm not saying you can't go in raw against a single studio who happens to have the same bad practices as everyone else - just that, we've done that before and it doesn't work. It just makes you feel like you did something so you can pat yourself on the back. Most of the strides made improving game developer's lives have come from industry-wide pressure and activism - not refusing to buy one game from one studio (or even just spreading information about how awful they treat their employees). I can yell Blizzard treats most of their employees like shit into the nether until my face turns blue but there will always be that one guy who says "Not uh!" and everyone would rather listen to him and keep playing Overwatch.

 

[JordanN]

Working in small mobile studios now, coming from AAA, I'd never want to go back. Conditions are hell, the pay is even more shit ( don't work in games if money is a top priority) and you'll seldom be lucky to actually work on something you love.

This is something I really thought about the game industry.

I grew up during the PS1/PS2 era so naturally, I wanted to work with those studios. Fast forward to 2017 and now those studios are either dead or they changed completely.

Fortunately, we now live in a time where anyone can download powerful game engines for free. So that has scratched my itch by learning to make my own art.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

The title of your thread is literally "Why I won't be buying Red Dead 2". You also went on to talk about how working conditions have started to affect who you give your dollars to and which companies you support. I don't know how I was supposed to interpret that you didn't mean it literally or that the focus was supposed to be specific only on said working conditions.

Even so, I probably would have made the same comments regardless. Because the basis of the thread is misleading. You made it seem like Rockstar was not only the worst, but one of the only, studios with these practices. A point you continue to reinforce by claiming that

It's not false. The severity and frequency of the multitude of poor conditions - things which I mentioned and definitely did not gloss over such as lack of proper compensation, abusive/poor management towards employees, zero-notice firings for arbitrary, often legally-questionable reasons, layoffs even when the game is successful and the studio is turning a profit - those things range wildly from individual studio to studio. But the fundamental existence of them, to some degree, is just about everywhere. I'll concede that saying ALL AAA development studios have every single one to a degree that warrants harsh criticism is probably an exaggeration.

But so is the idea that Rockstar has the worst Glassdoor reviews in the industry. Hell, the last studio I worked for had nearly identical reviews about lack of compensation, crunch, poor management, unwarranted firings and layoffs, all of it and more.

You are not EA spouse. You have no evidence that Rockstar is breaking laws and contracts - which is what EA spouse was actually about, not overtime - but compensation. The results of the EA lawsuit only benefit two classes of developers and only guaranteed them overtime compensation under specific circumstances and job codes. EA almost immediately went right back to sweatshop-like working conditions, reorganized to skirt as many of the legalities of new employment laws they could and continue on with business as usual. My source for this? I worked across the damn street from the main EA campus for 3 years. Some of those horrors stories I mentioned earlier were from EA employees themselves after the conclusion of the lawsuit.

I have. Many times. I've even spoken to game journalists about it before. There's tons of examples on developer forums, on Gamasutra, in the IGDA, on GAF even. I mentioned Riot my last post. ArenaNet also told me in the interview that 60 hours is the standard week and their starting compensation was below industry average. It doesn't seem to make a difference because, as you have seen for yourself, most people either don't care, don't believe you, immediately question your experience or validity as a developer, or will point to some other industry that has equally long hours as a reason to "quit bitching".

I'm not asking you to quit bitching. I'm saying that going in on one company has demonstrably proven to do very little in the long term. Even EA spouse didn't really affect anyone but certain programmers and artists at EA immediately following the conclusion of the lawsuit. It didn't change the industry-wide practices, it just made companies smarter about how they implement them - from a legal standpoint.

It's not a Rockstar problem, it's a AAA development problem. The solutions come from pressure on and from sources like the IGDA and ESA. I mean, I'm not saying you can't go in raw against a single studio who happens to have the same bad practices as everyone else - just that, we've done that before and it doesn't work. It just makes you feel like you did something so you can pat yourself on the back. Most of the strides made improving game developer's lives have come from industry-wide pressure and activism - not refusing to buy one game from one studio (or even just spreading information about how awful they treat their employees). I can yell Blizzard treats most of their employees like shit into the nether until my face turns blue but there will always be that one guy who says "Not uh!" and everyone would rather listen to him and keep playing Overwatch.

Thanks again! This is good stuff.

We might have to agree to disagree on some of this, because both my sources and personal experience are in sharp contrast with yours. For example, I was working for EA during the EA Spouse debacle and things did indeed get better at EA as a whole (sorry to hear that for some people it didn't)

I also find it telling when my sources, which include people at Riot, Blizzard, Airship and others, are appalled at those working conditions. Your post make them pretty standard but I haven't seen much to that effect. I agree that Glassdoor is not the perfect tool for this, but it backs up things I have heard in the past, so I found it to be accurate.

If you have more experience on bringing up these subject matters, then great! I dont have experience in being in front of any if this, so my wording and choice of topic are probably not the greatest, thats fine, it doesnt bother me. IGDA and Gamasutra are good places, but not fan centric, my thought was to bring this information to people who would have no idea. This is definitely not something to pat myself on the back, hell if anything for me its a bad idea since I'm probably pissing people off.

This is sitting at 90k views, so hopefully more people now know how one, some or most of the games they enjoy are being made. I sincerely believe that can help some people in the industry in the long term. If thats naive of me, then thats fine. If they think Im an idiot, thats fine too.

Thanks for the discussion though, really appreciate it.

 

[Shai-Tan]

This applies to software in general and it isn't all externally imposed. I decided to stop being a software developer because of the degree to which it takes over your mind, like you get tunnel vision for a problem in most waking moments including time that should be sleep until you crash. And there's a never ending series of problems and refinement if you're holding yourself to a high standard. Now put that in a production pipeline where your work has to fit in a schedule where other people depend on you making progress regardless of the reasonable time it would take to get the work done and the perfectability approaching a limit far beyond what can be done if you have an outside life. I don't doubt that other people are better at turning it off but if you have insecurity about not being good enough or feel like you're letting others down then that's a recipe for 60-80 hour weeks and throwing more labor at the problem isn't going to necessarily solve the problem, especially in games where there always more that can be done to make the experience better.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Thanks again! This is good stuff.

We might have to agree to disagree on some of this, because both my sources and personal experience are in sharp contrast with yours. For example, I was working for EA during the EA Spouse debacle and things did indeed get better at EA as a whole (sorry to hear that for some people it didn't)

I also find it telling when my sources, which include people at Riot, Blizzard, Airship and others, are appalled at those working conditions. Your post make them pretty standard but I haven't seen much to that effect. I agree that Glassdoor is not the perfect tool for this, but it backs up things I have heard in the past, so I found it to be accurate.

Well, I tried to say this without outright saying it but... there's people at every bad (in terms of work environment) studio that will vehemently defend their current workplace. They do it for a number of reasons but it's usually a combination of either: "I worked at Studio X and it was so much worse than this, so its not that bad here" and/or some weird Stockholm Syndrome-esque desire to avoid admitting you are actively being taken advantage of by your employer. I've worked for studios with minimal poor conditions where we only had to work crunch for 6 months and we were denied promised performance bonuses despite hitting our milestones and sales targets. But otherwise, it was alright. And I've worked for studios where I crunched for 2 years nonstop, the studio slowly stopped providing certain benefits (like free snacks and drink), began cheaping out on crunch food for people working late (including not ordering enough food despite knowing exactly how many people are crunching each night for the past year plus), started slashing salaries without notice (have fun with that 30% paycut starting... now), senior management that would verbally harass/physically threaten male employees and sexually harass female employees with an HR department whose literal response was "work it out among yourselves", and then 60% of the studio was laid off without any notice. And I can probably find a dozen people still working there that will tell you its a good studio to work at.

Now, I'm not saying your sources are those people, I want to be very clear that I'm not attacking you or the people you've talked to... but... it's one of the major obstacles in sharing personal stories and discussing the realities of different studios in AAA development. No matter how much evidence you may have, there's almost always at least one voice that will speak up and say you're full of shit. Which is why so many developers literally just give up and quit - either moving into mobile development where things are much better due to smaller teams and shorter development cycles or just leave the industry altogether because it isn't worth the fight. Why should I fight for better conditions for my coworkers when a certain percentage of them will call me a liar, publicly, and defend the very company responsible for their miserable personal life - when I can just leave this shitty industry and have a better life doing literally anything else.

It's the reason I just flat out retired from game development. I got tired of everyone - gamers and other developers alike just endlessly shitting on anyone willing to speak out.

Again, I want to be clear I don't think you are doing that, but that's kind of where I see this headed, because it always eventually heads there.