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[Gunstar Ikari]

As someone who is awful as execution, it shouldn't be much simpler than it is in Street Fighter V.

Someone who isn't willing to spend a little time learning will almost always be on the losing end of an online match, regardless of how simple the inputs are. That audience should be catered to through single-player modes, not by simplifying the core mechanics.

 

[FRS1987]

One of the things I love about older SF games is that everyone can pick a character and embody their expression and style to that character and feel different than someone who picked the same character.

SFV ironically is designed with the spectator in mind but is extremely boring to watch compared to a high-level match in say, SF2, SF4 and even Third Strike where people are allowed to be defensive, offensive and have unique strategies to deal with certain characters as opposed to the same style over and over in SF5 with little difference.

I think another reason why SF5 is mainly pure offense is the input delay that forces people to not play in a defensive style because it's extremely difficult to predict or adjust because of how much stronger an offensive play can overpower defensive play.

KOF series imo does offensive/aggressive play EXTREMELY well while also allowing defensive options to shut them down. SF4, people argue about 1f links but they didn't dictate a match and were difficult to pull off as opposed to V-trigger which is easy and is what usually dictates whether someone wins or loses. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Also partly because of the video the thread is about people tend to conflate execution with combos (as in you open people up then do your thing) as opposed to neutral but it's an aspect of the game that matters in more than combos. Say you're going to anti-air somebody, you might want to go with a button or you could do it with a super, then execution comes into play in another way because doing whatever motion that is during a combo and doing it as a reaction when you were doing some other movement or holding downback at the time might be different. Same for converting off a poke, you'll probably be buffering the motion and hitting the button as a confirm when you hit them and that's another aspect that still involves the ability to execute well. You can be godlike at combos and still have trouble converting off stray hits like that and end up letting it rip and die for it too.

Not mentioned in the video, but something I think is relevant is that many modern games have to various extents depending on the franchise taken a hit in terms of general movement speed compared to previous installments. Taking advantage of the speed of the game as a basic skill check is a bit less of a thing now, and it's a change that fits into the whole accessibility/improving the viewer experience thing that I also think is for the worse.

 

[Fraeon]

The interesting thing to me about this execution discussion is that we don't live in a world where people generally like watching or playing games where people rub their brains together to see who's got it bigger. If that were the case, chess and Go would be far more popular than, say, football where execution does come to play.

Would Hearthstone be a better game if you could pick any card and let the players decide the order of their deck? I don't know but seeing what the most popular games are, I'd wager people do see value in uncertainty.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

There's no plinking in SFV.

Yes there is. It just doesn't work like SF4.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

If you can't do a combo consistently what makes you think you can develop & execute a strategy in a fighting game? Execution barrier is just an excuse for people to give up.

 

[WarRock]

I'm not sure which is worse:

People not knowing Rival Schools got a sequel on the Dreamcast or thinking it is "more accessible" than current fighters.

The actual difference is that back then you weren't being blown up online or watching weekly tournaments on Twitch.

The same for saying Tekken is easy for the casual audience. Perceived easiness to do stuff in a game != actual skill floor of the game. And stop thinking that difficulty in pressing buttons and getting cool shit = skill, for God's sake. And start using Easy Operation/Stylish Mode or whatever is the option for easy moves in the game of your preference. Fighting games have that since forever.

Video is clearly not about links or motion inputs, yet this is all people complain about. Says a lot about how they don't understand what they want changed in the first place. By the logic of some, I should be championing the removal of headshots and strafing in FPSes, since I can't do them properly or be precise enough and who cares about executing those stuff I just want to have fun and do cool looking shit.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Gotta say I agree. During season 1 I was able to do so many parried I wouldn't be able to in 3s.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Remember, the majority of people that shit on 3s falls along the line of: why block when you can parry everything, without fault.

Thank god parry isn't regulated to something like a button input. That would be stupid.

As it is right now, there's nothing there for normal people.

Local play will always be there.

 

[Chronospherics]

I mean imagine Team based games with high skill ceilings when its already a struggle to coordinate with 4 other people.

Also parrying being Ryu's V-Skill is pretty stupid imo.

Well yes, much of the depth from those games comes from team coordination, but in the same sense that team coordination isn't inaccessible to anyone. Everyone understands what to do and how to coordinate, whether your friends or companions are willing to do so is a variable beyond the player, or games control.

However none of the coordination required to be successful is has a mechanical barrier. Executing your moves and doing what you want to do in the game is relatively easy. CSGO has a mechanical barrier (accuracy) but actually playing the game at a basic level is still easy.

Rocket League is similar, and also features 1 vs 1 matches, so could be a better comparison.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Well yes, much of the depth from those games comes from team coordination, but in the same sense that team coordination isn't inaccessible to anyone. Everyone understands what to do and how to coordinate, whether your friends or companions are willing to do so is a variable beyond the player, or games control.

However none of the coordination required to be successful is has a mechanical barrier. Executing your moves and doing what you want to do in the game is relatively easy. CSGO has a mechanical barrier (accuracy) but actually playing the game at a basic level is still easy.

Rocket League is similar, and also features 1 vs 1 matches, so could be a better comparison.

I think this is why I recommend Pokken and a lot of Arena fighters to people who have hard times pulling off high level execution, they're simpler games that actually doesnt manage to sacrifice the depth of a fighting game.


[ALSO: Shameless plug, I'm currently working on a video game analysis series and I do plan to cover Street Fighter's design in the first season as well as my old argument that Vanguard Princess and Battle Fantasia are the successors to 3rd Strike and Garou. Please look forward to it guys.]

 

[pizzacat]

why cant fighting games be qtes?

 

[lucebuce12]

why cant fighting games be qtes?

People would still complain about the execution.

 

[FadedRevolution]

why cant fighting games be qtes?

Ultimate Tenkaichi was ahead of its time.

 

[oneida]

I'm not sure which is worse:

People not knowing Rival Schools got a sequel on the Dreamcast or thinking it is "more accessible" than current fighters.

you got played

 

[danmaku]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

 

[sephi22]

NRS games are better than SFV? And "unanimous opinion" that GG is the best fighting game on the market? Hmm that's all highly subjective and you know it. You may think that, but you are of course, entitled to your own opinion - just don't bundle everyone else in that point of view.

Injustice 2 is a better game that SFV, yes, but it's arguable. Injustice's biggest weakness is it's gameplay involving constant rushdown and 50/50s, but SFV has the same problem. Injustice has weird animations but better looking models and facial animations so it balances out. And zoning still works. Wherever you fall on the gameplay scale, you'd either like it more or less than SFV, but in every other aspect, from modes to netcode to graphics, it's a blowout.

GG Xrd Revelator is unanimously considered the best fighting game among most places I visit - Discord, GAF, r/Kappa, twitch what have you. That's what I mean by unanimous. I don't mean every single person on earth considers it the best. I also don't mean it's everyone's favorite game. It's not mine but I still know its the best fighting game released this gen, but Tekken 7 might change that. You would obviously find outliers, casuals, or people with plain old bad opinions. I haven't followed Rev2 too closely so don't know if it continues the Xrd streak of quality. For all I know it's a broken piece of shit.

Diago works just as hard playing SFV so to downplay him just because he can't do arbitrary 1-framelinks in SFV is kind of shitty.

I don't know what this has to do with what I said about watching pros, but I'll bite. Daigo's ass in SFV. I don't know if he's working hard or not, but is definitely not showing it. Dude is probably coasting off book sales and twitch salary.

Every single character is basically all shoto moves. I am not seeing how Injustice is harder than SFV ... only if you go to the pro side of stuff, which I can't say anything about it.

I can do any combo PR Rog or Smug do with Balrog. I can't do the things Sonicfox does with Black Adam or Joker. Yes, I mean the pro side, which is what the video talks about. I have no idea why you are bringing up skill floor which the video's not about.

Tekken is not hard ... everyone can make moves come out and have fun playing.
Again, you might be talking about pro stuff, which is not what I am talking about. Because the only people who cares about the pros is the pros.

Yes, and that is what the video is about. You are in the wrong thread if you think anyone's complaining about the skill floor. No one is complaining about the skill floor in the video. No one wants to change Hadoken to a pretzel motion or whatever. There are people in this very thread saying that they are glad that 1-2frame links are gone. That is 'pro' level stuff, not basic stuff.

Both games have insanely low skill floors. Which means everyone can do the flashy stuff. This is how you focus on spectacle or casual audience, not with sponsors or whatever.

Another off-topic stream of consciousness line. Who said otherwise? Injustice 2 has sponsors. Tekken has sponsors. They also have low skill floors and high skill ceilings. What does this have to do with anything?
Did you play MKX? It sold 5 million. It's as easy to get into as Injustice. It's arguably harder at pro level because of run cancels. Did that stop the casuals from buying the game?

...play another game then if this is so important to you =P

I do. I play every fighting game. This thread is about effect of accessibility on SFV so I'm discussing it.

I said they are focusing on the pros but trying to make it accessible.
And that the video wants to make it more focused on the pros and less accessible.

The dude in the video was dead when he managed to do the Daigo parry so easily in SFV.
I was jumping and cheering when I finally managed to make the Daigo parry in SFV.

So except for the lag stuff, I don't see how anything he mentioned would benefit the majority of the paying audience of the game.

For the first bolded, please watch the video and tell me where they are complaining about the skill floor or accessibility at the lower end. They are complaining at the tournament level there is no creativity or return on investment when it comes to practice or execution because a player can do what daigo does in a week. It's not about day 1 players jumping around and doing hadokens or shoryukens. You can do that easily in SF4 as well. It's about high level stuff, 'pro' stuff as you say and since you're not interested in that I don't even know why you're arguing against it.

No one's taking away your fireball motions or whatever. If there is less input lag, and more defensive tools and combo variety, then you don't lose anything, higher level players gain varied options (there is such a thing as matchup unfamiliarity where an opponent uses a setup that you haven't seen before), but the spectators gain the most.

Every other company's way of making a game accessible: Reduce system level mechanics (TTT2->T7), reduce overall combo length (KOF13->KOF14), add good tutorials (GG Xrd), without drastically reducing skill ceiling
Capcom's way of making the game accessible: Reduce system level mechanics, reduce combo length, don't add good tutorials, drastically reduce skill ceiling, remove defensive options and favor offense, add input lag, reduce normal size to nerf footsies

The video specifically talks about the bolded

 

[lucebuce12]

I don't know what this has to do with what I said about watching pros, but I'll bite. Daigo's ass in SFV. I don't know if he's working hard or not, but is definitely not showing it. Dude is probably coasting off book sales and twitch salary.

It's not a big secret as to why this is.

Dude is playing defensive in a game that's all about offense. Even if he picked the only character that has decent defense in the game, it's still not enough to wether the storm of offense.

 

[myco666]

Not saying it did. I'm saying it sold poorly because there wasn't enough meat there for casual players.

...which possibly could have been fine if the inputs were more streamlined to help newcomers get into competitive play. As it is right now, there's nothing there for normal people.

I could get into competitive play just fine and I was very casual when the game released. So there is definitely something for 'normal' people.

listen

you can't plink with karin on a gamepad without clawing or some other stupid shit.

that is my problem okay, i literally can't do most of her better combos.

Maybe pick another character instead of probably the most execution heavy character in the game? There are lot of characters that are easier to play.

 

[nynt9]

Every single character is basically all shoto moves. I am not seeing how Injustice is harder than SFV ... only if you go to the pro side of stuff, which I can't say anything about it.

Tekken is not hard ... everyone can make moves come out and have fun playing.
Again, you might be talking about pro stuff, which is not what I am talking about. Because the only people who cares about the pros is the pros.

Both games have insanely low skill floors. Which means everyone can do the flashy stuff. This is how you focus on spectacle or casual audience, not with sponsors or whatever.

BUT A PRO GAMER LOOSES HIS ARTISTIC EXPRESSION !
...play another game then if this is so important to you =P



I said they are focusing on the pros but trying to make it accessible.
And that the video wants to make it more focused on the pros and less accessible.

The dude in the video was dead when he managed to do the Daigo parry so easily in SFV.
I was jumping and cheering when I finally managed to make the Daigo parry in SFV.

So except for the lag stuff, I don't see how anything he mentioned would benefit the majority of the paying audience of the game.

You're conflating skill of execution with any other skill that is required for fighting games. I don't think execution should be difficult, but there should still be mechanics that differentiate between skilled and unskilled players in the mid game aspect. Spacing, punishing, etc. - those don't correlate with moves being easier or harder to execute.

Honestly, from your first post it sounds like you're arguing in bad faith but I'll just assume that you just don't know how much you don't know about fighting games.

Mind you, I suck at fighting games and am a casual, but I like spectating them and have put in some time to understand the concepts of high level play. You don't have to be skilled to be able to understand what skill is and appreciate it.

 

[sephi22]

Honestly, from your first post it sounds like you're arguing in bad faith but I'll just assume that you just don't know how much you don't know about fighting games.
.

I don't think English is their first language. They are confusing skill floor with skill ceiling. Hopefully my post above is able to explain the difference.

 

[Arc Christelle]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

Godlike.

 

[oneida]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

amazing

 

[Onemic]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

agreed tbh. Why cant I beat Lebron James 1on1 or play in the NBA? Pretty stupid imo.

 

[lucebuce12]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

Sums up my feelings perfectly.

 

[Spman2099]

This issue has sorta been driven into the ground... I also think it is riddled with fallacies. In the beginning of the video he shows the parrying of Chun-Li's super in SFV and how easy it is, yet people struggle with Ryu in tournaments, despite him being one of only two people in the game with that parry; if it was so easy to parry supers, wouldn't we see more Ryu's? Moreover, he talks about how "the skill gap will, more or less, reward players who put more hours into the game" which is exactly what you see happening with SFV (a game that, much like its predecessors, is dominated consistently by a few people who have established themselves as the top players). He then goes on to talk about how SFV now has respected players who are heavily criticizing the developers of the game... and is pretending that is a new thing. Criticizing the top tier characters in fighting games is a time honored tradition. Basically, almost every argument he presents is fundamentally flawed.

SFV probably toned the execution barrier down a little too far. However, I greatly prefer playing a game that has made inputs a little too lenient over a game with option selects and one frame links.

 

[jett]

I don't know what this has to do with what I said about watching pros, but I'll bite. Daigo's ass in SFV. I don't know if he's working hard or not, but is definitely not showing it. Dude is probably coasting off book sales and twitch salary.

Daigo just ended up placing fourth in Redbull Kumite today after beating Tokido, Phenom and Bonchan in a row.

 

[WarRock]

you got played

Damn it, I gotta git gud )=

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

This.

 

[crimzonflame]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

You forget to add that once the NBA makes these changes, you will only play for a few days and then move onto a new sport.

 

[SephLuis]

I'm not against removing ultra difficult combos with multiple 1f links that were very common in SF IV. IIRC, SF2,SF3,SFA3 didn't had that focus on difficult combos with 1f links either.

Giving more defense options would be interesting to avoid a lot of the 50/50 scenarios the game has and some characters should be given more tools to make them a little bit more interesting.

My main complain is about the S2 balancing which, overall, seems a lot worse than S1.

 

[SixMachine]

This issue has sorta been driven into the ground... I also think it is riddled with fallacies. In the beginning of the video he shows the parrying of Chun-Li's super in SFV and how easy it is, yet people struggle with Ryu in tournaments, despite him being one of only two people in the game with that parry. Moreover, he talks about how "the skill gap will, more or less, reward players who put more hours into the game" which is exactly what you see happening with SFV (a game that, much like its predecessors, is dominated consistently by a few people who have established themselves as the top players). He then goes on to talk about how SFV now has respected players who are heavily criticizing the developers of the game... and is pretending that is a new thing. Criticizing the top tier characters in fighting games is a time honored tradition. Basically, almost every argument he presents is fundamentally flawed.

SFV probably toned the execution barrier down a little too far. However, I greatly prefer playing a game that has made inputs a little too lenient over a game with option selects and one frame links.

Being able to parry a super is hardly relevant to tier strength in this game. Most Chun's that are competent, like week 1 that learned a bnb, will easily confirm into it from a combo than doing it raw unless it was a chip kill. The reason Ryu is weak is due to various other factors, such as weakened damage, weak fireball game, shorter limbs, no pressure after throws, weak dp unless EX, etc.

 

[Hentailover]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

 

[Spman2099]

Being able to parry a super is hardly relevant to tier strength in this game. Most Chun's that are competent, like week 1 that learned a bnb, will easily confirm into it from a combo than doing it raw unless it was a chip kill. The reason Ryu is weak is due to various other factors, such as weakened damage, weak fireball game, shorter limbs, no pressure after throws, weak dp unless EX, etc.

That is fair, but in general I would expect that a super lenient parry would be a powerful tool in a game where the majority of normals have fairly slow startup. Of course, the truth is that Ryu's parry doesn't work the same as the universal parry in Third Strike. It has completely different recovery. Which means it makes for a very bad comparison in that video.

 

[SixMachine]

That is fair, but in general I would expect that a super lenient parry would be a powerful tool in a game where the majority of normals have fairly slow startup. Of course, the truth is that Ryu's parry doesn't work the same as the universal parry in Third Strike. It has completely different recovery. Which means it makes for a very bad comparison in that video.

The parry is lenient but having a recovery is a huge detriment to it compared to 3S. In 3S, since basically it is tapping forward, people can make parry attempts in neutral, while in SF5 they have to commit to it because he is going into the parry animation, which is pretty easy for the opponent to see them doing. The parry in SF5 also has startup, which means on frame 1, you will get hit if the attack lands too early, so you need to parry ahead of time compared to 3S. Not only that but there is more input lag, which means actually reacting to something is harder, because even a few frames makes a huge difference. Also Ryu has recovery on a successful parry, so he can't punish quick recovery moves on success.

The comparison works because both situations are relevant in that this situation could arise in chip kill scenarios. In SF5, starting the parry is easier since there is the whole super animation at the start, so most can react to that if they see Chun go into a raw super. Not only that, but the difficulty of reacting and completing the sequence is a huge mental burden. If you know it is hard to do, you are less comfortable and likely to do it. So that is why it is much more impressive for Daigo to do it.

 

[MoxManiac]

I think the argument for having easy execution is that removing the execution barrier means the game can focus on other elements such as footsies, mindgames, setups etc. Some argue that is where the real skill in fighting games is, others argue execution is one of the core pillars, and not a barrier to be torn down.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I've been playing fighting games since the 90s, but I have to make the confession that 5's easier execution as made it easier for me to play and keep up with the various adult responsibilities I have now. That said, I played SF4 competitively since the inception of the first version and spent a lot of time mastering Rufus's execution, to the point where I could do his 1 frame stuff without plinking. That was pretty satisfying.

I also had one good friend that I used to go to tournaments with up and quit due to SF5's easy execution.

 

[Onemic]

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

Fine, all FPS games should make it so that if I see my opponent first I get an auto kill every time. Headshots are cheap and if I saw an opponent first I outplayed them. It's not fair in counterstrike when I catch an opponent from behind and start shooting them and they do a 180 degree spin and headshot me with an AK. Where's the skill in that? It's cheap.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

It's a shitty reduction. Street Fighter will always have some kind of execution requirement as long as it remains real-time. Generalizing the dexterity barrier as some kind of parlor trick, and by extension stereotyping the people who practice fighting games as a lifestyle as some kind of freak show performers is incredibly demeaning.

 

[Fraeon]

Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

Interestingly, would you consider Divekick to be a good direction for the genre?

I'm genuinely curious, because that's pretty much just the genre boiled down to that basic idea.

 

[KillLaCam]

So I'm alright with simplifying some inputs but not much else. Maybe making rushdown more viable in a few games because that is probably more fun to watch for the average person. You don't see people getting mad about seeing aggressive combos they get mad about zoning.

Adding extra input delay just to make it harder to react is bs though. That's an annoying way to lower the skill gap. Games should be responsive no matter what. Nobody wants to play a game that feels laggy, especially a fighting game.

 

[Rutger]

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

When a difficult combo gives the player more damage or better positioning, they are being rewarded for it. These situations are not just "parlor tricks" it's a core part of the risk vs reward aspect of fighting games.

If a new fighting game comes around and doesn't want that aspect then that's fine, but wanting established games to remove something that has always been a part of it because you don't think it should be is silly.

 

[qcf x2]

I greatly enjoyed watching the video, thanks for posting. I haven't played SFV in about a year so I can't speak to its status now, but I've long held the belief that Capcom shouldn't be afraid to have different titles concurrently that appeal to different sides of the fighting game spectrum. Example: release SFA4 and make it have easier inputs like SFV, then have SF6 return to a more skill-based focus. SFA then becomes your title for those who want more hype from a 1v1 fighter and the mainline SF series retains its roots. Substitute SFA for Rival Schools, a new SF spinoff or new fighting game franchise entirely, etc. There's room in the market.

I don't fault Capcom at all for the concept of making a less-intense control scheme. It's a great idea, I just don't know if the mainline SF series is the place for it. That being said, I don't think it's the main issue with SFV at all, nor do I like 1f links -- I think they suck. But they probably went too far with the way it is now.

 

[SixMachine]

I think the argument for having easy execution is that removing the execution barrier means the game can focus on other elements such as footsies, mindgames, setups etc. Some argue that is where the real skill in fighting games is, others argue execution is one of the core pillars, and not a barrier to be torn down.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I've been playing fighting games since the 90s, but I have to make the confession that 5's easier execution as made it easier for me to play and keep up with the various adult responsibilities I have now. That said, I played SF4 competitively since the inception of the first version and spent a lot of time mastering Rufus's execution, to the point where I could do his 1 frame stuff without plinking. That was pretty satisfying.

I also had one good friend that I used to go to tournaments with up and quit due to SF5's easy execution.

Talking to a lot of people the problem is that the footsies, mindgames, and setups, etc. do feel more limited in SF5 compared to past SF games in their opinion. I remember talking to other gaffers when it was first at Evo that I felt the normals felt off and shorter. And they are, making it detrimental to footsies, since it makes characters focus on a more closer and uniform range. Due to it being an offensive close range game, it makes the setups and mindgames really focus on the frame traps and the 50/50s, since they occur within the range that a lot of SF5 characters are designed at. Which makes people really feel that the 50/50 and setups become braindead because they have to run into them constantly and a lot of them are routine in making them occur (like fighting a grappler in the game, you basically can be throw looped and setup until you get out of it by guessing correctly). 50/50 isn't unique to SF5, but perception of it being too overbearing is something that can be a problem. Even if SF4 did have vortexes and such, a lot of people probably had to lab it up to do them properly, since it was more punishing with stronger defensive options and wakeup reversals they will lose out on more by doing it sloppy.

 

[Htown]

Do you watch sports? If everyone could throw 3-pointers like Steph Curry, it wouldn't be as exciting when he does it. Same concept.

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

It's a shitty reduction. Street Fighter will always have some kind of execution requirement as long as it remains real-time. Generalizing the dexterity barrier as some kind of parlor trick, and by extension stereotyping the people who practice fighting games as a lifestyle as some kind of freak show performers is incredibly demeaning.

This is often what it boils down to. The idea that somehow there are godlike mind games geniuses out there who are being held back unfairly as they lose because of their execution to players who aren't actually better, but rather are just mindless robots who merely practiced.

 

[LinkSlayer64]

I don't understand the "uniqueness in playstyle from combos" here. Anyone can learn any combo anyone does with enough work.
For example, I love Marlin Pie's Dr. Doom, but couldn't anyone learn to do what he does? In the end, the only thing anyone is limited by is the game's engine.

 

[Onemic]

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

except...it isnt...at all.

And like you said, anyone can do a combo occasionally with a bit of practice.

But just like shooting 3's, doing it consistently and doing it occasionally are two completely different things.

 

[nynt9]

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

So you're saying basketball has no mental component or strategy, and is simply won by brainless people who have only sheer physical skill?

 

[WarRock]

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.

Then why not play the games that focus on that instead of trying to make others into something they aren't?

Contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of options in the genre. And this time I didn't even list retrogames.

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

The irony.

 

[QisTopTier]

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

No it's not. I've been playing fighters since sf2 and just no. Everyone always blows fighting games out of proportion for how hard they are. They have a basic learning process. Most competitive games do. Thats' all there is to it. BUT fighting games are not as popular as other competitive games so the resources are not as abundant as other stuff.

It's also not a team game so people can't shift the blame to others so they go to the next thing the game IT'S NEVER MY FAULT I HAVENT TAKEN THE TIME TO LEARNN STUFF

 

[oneida]

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

what fighting games "should" be to you is what they haven't been for 25 years. maybe the genre isn't for you?