Tizoc
Member
The better you get in a game, the more second nature becomes the stuff you do in them. This applies to combos as well, regardless of complexity. Case in point, combos in GG or BB for example.
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Core-A Gaming: Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap (in fighting games)
- Thread starter Tizoc
- Start date
The better you get in a game, the more second nature becomes the stuff you do in them. This applies to combos as well, regardless of complexity. Case in point, combos in GG or BB for example.
A bunch of 'literally who's. He needs to switch to Smash or something. Wake me up when he isn't free to America
lucebuce12
Member
A world where Tokido and Bonchan are "literally who"s
Both are games before being sports.
Also, no game has to the obligation of being for everybody. I have friends who can't play first person games at all (motion sickness). So if they like the setting and concepts of Titanfall, do the next one should have to become third person just so they can play it?
I can't wrap my head around micromanaging in RTS. So the entire genre should ditch this aspect?
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
But that's what makes video games compelling as a competition. The physical barriers to professional-level play are insignificant to nonexistent, making the mantra of "anybody can compete" such a big draw. And that's what makes the basketball fallacy ad absurdum exceptionally ludicrous.
CountBlack
Member
lmao spot on
MikeBreezy92
Member
I actually think people understate the physical barriers to Fighting Games or did we forget there are entire threads are dedicated to people not knowing how to Fireball. Just like some people for the life of them can't play Basketball.
The video wasn't solely about execution but that's still a major part of fighting games, they are the most physically​ taxing video games outside of anything motion control based.
lucebuce12
Member
I was actually thinking about this post yesterday, and I THINK Mario Kart and Kart Racing games with pickups can fall into the high-skill/high luck paradigm.
Man, last time I played 8 I was in first place and got my bananas ghosted then blue shelled and triple red shelled.
lucebuce12
Member
I guess that's why we don't see many high skill/high luck games 
All those games have fairly difficult combos that you'll see all the time in high level play. SF2 has the ToD stuff and comboing into super is actually quite difficult. SF3 has the crazy juggle combos for a lot of characters and A3 the V-Combos, some of which are harder than pretty much anything in SF4.
And don't forget that in a lot of ways SF4 is way easier than those games. The reversal window was increased(to the point where it is trivially easy to get reversals in sf4) and not only did they make buffering inputs for combos easier, they've also added plenty of shortcuts.
You roll your thumb from down to foward then press a button, is it really that hard? I think the issue comes from the games not knowing how to explain it properly, then again, I initially learned it on a keyboard.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I mean I used to trivialize it myself but there are people who can't even do them at all. It's just how people are man.
"1f link" combos in SF4 were way easier than doing the tighter combos in any of the games you just listed. Go try and do some of the links and custom combos from those games consistently. It's not easy, and if you want to play certain characters in those games you need to do some wild shit.
Like you can get most of your players to figure out 1f link E Ryu combos or something. Try getting people to consistently land ToDs in SF2 or charge partition Urien/Oro stuff in 3S. Willing to bet you'd have more success with SF4 combos.
I don't mind 1f links not coming back btw. Just pointing out that they really weren't the devil people made them out to be, especially since they came with hyperly stable combo structure compared to older SF games.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I'm going to put this here will put some of the combo execution talk in perspective.
Only elitists have time to watch comp vids!
Roguelikes, I'd guess?
I mentioned this; sometimes it's physical, sometimes mental, sometimes emotional. It's important to notice the differences.
Only elitists have time to watch comp vids!
I guess that's why we don't see many high skill/high luck games
Roguelikes, I'd guess?
I mentioned this; sometimes it's physical, sometimes mental, sometimes emotional. It's important to notice the differences.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Not with SFV.
3 best players right now in SFV might be Nuckledu (Capcom Cup champion), Punk (won two CPT premiers, ELEAGUE) and Phenom (multiple top 8 at CPT events). All either 20 or under.
What a time to be alive.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
These discussions always boil down to people thinking about super moves and combos and vapor locking on just that. Defense isn't even on the radar.
Basketball
Member
Have you been watching any SFV at all in the last 8-9 months
FadedRevolution
Member
This ain't chess tho...
abstract alien
Member
You do have to memorize input to play an instrument though, and each one has a different feel and timing, on top of knowing when and where to "move".
Crayon
Member
Nobody who knows their game and loves their game wants to push away potential competitors. It's not like that at all.
Professional Chess is actually a physical and mental endurance. You pratice years, even decades to perform at the highest level. You have to memorize centuries of developed strategies in order to implement and counter said strategies. Matches can potentially last hours and even days, and then you're supposed to play a whole series against one person over days and weeks in order to prove you're the better player. You're on a 1 minute timer in professional chess, and to top it off, you're supposed to have the maturity to know if and when you're lost to actually give up and say the words "I quit".
You can't even get people in the FGC to shake people hands sometimes after a loss.
Here's a 3 hour online match with commentators on a chess match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clHj65Vwrys
This.
The SFV finals broadcasted on ESPN last year were.
so.
boring.
I figured I'd give it another chance once the game had been out a while longer but I'm not optimistic.
you memorized what all your pieces do.
Holy Order Sol
Member
All these comparisons are ass regardless of the point being made. Fighting games are fighting games. Tired of this "look at how X does it" as if outside validation was needed.
Games demanding certain things from people isn't even pushing them away. This is those people not being interested in the first place, so nothing is lost.
You didn't memorize the difference between the horse movement and the bishop movement? What about en passant or castling? Everybody is born knowing that, right? =P
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Dexterity barriers are not physical barriers. I'm not saying there's zero physical barrier to fighting games, but the amount of conditioning you need to do to become competitive is far less.
It's also a silly statement because high level chess players actually have tons and tons of plays memorized. Starting moves are just a small portion of what they have memorized.
I love how so many people post in eSports related threads that have no business talking about them.
I don't think memorizing plays and strategies is equivalent to memorizing the inputs of a specific combo, friend.
abstract alien
Member
That's the internet for you. Everyone has a voice, for better or worse. I can go into a car mechanics related thread and just type away right now, despite me barely knowing how to pump gas.
How so? Both are situational and rely on your own play-style. You can't just move the chess piece anywhere for your set up, you have to remember how it moves and where your opponent is.
Eeeh IMO Marvel 3 takes it too far in the opposite direction where random shit can lead into combos that actively prevent the opponent from playing from long periods of time.
Sure it's rewarding for a lot of players and looks great but when you're on the other end of that all you can do is shrug and say "Marvel happened" and hope it doesn't happen the next game.
AgentOtaku
Member
At the end of the day if getting people online is a fighting games goal then I think the solution is to A) have really good matchmaking and B) get the narrative out there that the match making is good.
Because the idea that you will have to spend a maybe a month of playing and not just losing every fight in that time, but losing horribly will keep people away. Maybe that's looking for "instant gratification" but its also a high barrier. Its been noted that team games let you blame your loses on others, but they also let you take part in a win even if what you where doing was very simple and didn't really have a lot to do with it, and those can help you not become discouraged well you learn the game. The other comparison I often see is fighting games to learning an instrument, but you learn an instrument in private with only a teacher or classmates you ideally trust to see you when you suck the worst.
Now to be fair a big issue is that a good hunk of good matchmaking is having a big enough pool of players to choose from. Which makes it a bit of a chicken-or-egg situation.
Because the idea that you will have to spend a maybe a month of playing and not just losing every fight in that time, but losing horribly will keep people away. Maybe that's looking for "instant gratification" but its also a high barrier. Its been noted that team games let you blame your loses on others, but they also let you take part in a win even if what you where doing was very simple and didn't really have a lot to do with it, and those can help you not become discouraged well you learn the game. The other comparison I often see is fighting games to learning an instrument, but you learn an instrument in private with only a teacher or classmates you ideally trust to see you when you suck the worst.
Now to be fair a big issue is that a good hunk of good matchmaking is having a big enough pool of players to choose from. Which makes it a bit of a chicken-or-egg situation.