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[MoxManiac]

I don't understand the "uniqueness in playstyle from combos" here. Anyone can learn any combo anyone does with enough work.
For example, I love Marlin Pie's Dr. Doom, but couldn't anyone learn to do what he does? In the end, the only thing anyone is limited by is the game's engine.

There's a difference between being able to do a combo, and being able to do it every single time, under immense pressure, I think.

 

[JayEH]

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

I don't even know what this is lmao.

 

[Fraeon]

I don't understand the "uniqueness in playstyle from combos" here. Anyone can learn any combo anyone does with enough work.
For example, I love Marlin Pie's Dr. Doom, but couldn't anyone learn to do what he does? In the end, the only thing anyone is limited by is the game's engine.

Technically yeah, you could learn how to do Marlinpie's swag Doom combos but depending on what your playstyle is, you might opt not to go for them. Maybe you just like to do something simple and to the point. Maybe you feel like going for those combos isn't worth the risk if you drop them. Maybe you're going for a reset and feel like you're getting more value that way. There's a bunch of reasons you might go for different things.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

Anybody can chuck a fireball with a bit of practice. Hell, you can occasionally throw a hadouken by just mashing buttons and directions, since that's kind of how the input was originally designed as a "secret" move. A person who literally has no ability to use his hands can play Street Fighter at a baseline competitive level (I dare you to respond to QisTopTier btw, who IIRC has some form of muscular dystrophy yet still competes at EVO). Shut the fuck up if you think basic command inputs require anywhere near the absurd amount of requirements you've concocted in your head.

 

[Harken Raiser]

Oh, so all sports have to be physical sports? Ok, when are we forcing chess players to juggle their pieces and toss them on the board? That way, being able to place your figures on the right spot every time will trully show us the most skilled players...

It all comes down to what we believe fighting games are. To me, they are mental sports. They are pretty much a more intense chess, about outplaying your opponent in the mind games. Sure, if somebody declares checkmate by bouncing his piece of opponent's forehead at just the perfect angle, that'd look neat. But that's a parlor trick. Chess isn't a parlor tricks competition. Neither should be fighting games.


Now, should I literally equate it to chess 1to1? No, that's silly. I don't want to remove literally all execution, I am just presenting an equal reduction. of the arguement to just a very basic barebones comparison to a different activity, that isn't at all related to the one at hand.

I've got a game for you, it's actually good too.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/287960/Yomi/

 

[Daouzin]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

I love everything about this post.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

It doesn't get any easier than sfv, if you still find it hard then the genre is just not for you. I'm already fearful for MVCI.. just give the average joe their SP modes rich of content so they can play around and be content of their purchase.. and for the love of god do not lower the execution barrier any lower.. i know this sounds elitist or whatever but these games require pracitice in order for you to be competent and consistent. Some might argue better practice tutorial (GG says hello) and still people complain.

 

[Lemstar]

til shooting a 3 is easier than doing a quarter circle motion

lemme call up brolylegs

 

[NoctisVsStar]

til shooting a 3 is easier than doing a quarter circle motion

lemme call up brolylegs

Don't worry the 3 point line is gonna shrink under the basket.

 

[Tripon]

til shooting a 3 is easier than doing a quarter circle motion

lemme call up brolylegs

This is what gets me, a guy who literally has to play with his mouth in order to compete has less of an issue playing this game than supposedly fully abled people.

 

[charlequin]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

The thing is, I think basketball is actually an almost perfect analogy for the optimum design in a fighting game. The execution barrier in basketball from beginner to decent/low-intermediate is extremely low; anyone with some athletic skill can learn to dribble, to pass, to shoot, to play basic defense, to read basic elements of the floor. Once you're decent you have the ability to sometimes succeed at any element of the game sometimes, in a conducive environment, without too many distractions or complications. If you can nail a 3 from way downtown even once, you've got a basic ability to apply every "mechanic" in the game and now it's a question of refinement. At the same time, the gap from that "decent" level to good, much less pro, is enormous; there's no question that better players will dominate.

A lot of the time when there are execution barriers in fighting games, the issue is in part that people feel like they can't even "really play" because moves and techniques that seem basic to the experience are already too hard to do. Once you open up the core set of moves and a basic RPS showdown to fairly new players you have a lot of room to add more complex execution cliffs higher up the chain.

(none of this is really different from people who have already talked about how skill floor and ceiling aren't necessarily tied together)

 

[MrCarter]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

This is a useless and misinformed analogy as comparing a fighting game to basketball are two different things. The game, as you mentioned should be about outplaying your opponent but that doesn't mean they STILL can't drop an execution like we have seen today at Redbull Kumite. For all we know, all these players may have practiced thier combos (there was a combo competition there too and this Akuma dropped his particular combo 4 times) time and time again (like nerds ha) yet they are still dropping them.

Really?

Balanced and in-depth indeed lol

 

[Holy Order Sol]

This is what gets me, a guy who literally has to play with his mouth in order to compete has less of an issue playing this game than supposedly fully abled people.

People expect to be able to perfectly do things that they haven't learned because reasons.

 

[WarRock]

This is a useless and misinformed analogy as comparing a fighting game to basketball are two different things. The game, as you mentioned should be about outplaying your opponent but that doesn't mean they STILL can't drop an execution like we have seen today at Redbull Kumite. For all we know, all these players may have practiced thier combos (there was a combo competition there too and this Akuma dropped his particular combo 4 times) time and time again (like nerds ha) yet they are still dropping them.

So what? The game should make sure the players never fail? So every game should be like Prince of Persia 2008?

 

[Arc Christelle]

Daigo just ended up placing fourth in Redbull Kumite today after beating Tokido, Phenom and Bonchan in a row.

W A S H E D U P

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

No, an actual comparison would be successfully driving the ball the court past defense, and scoring, which would be equivalent to a successful combo.

If you want to get a bit more video game about it, see NBA Street.

I don't understand the "uniqueness in playstyle from combos" here. Anyone can learn any combo anyone does with enough work.
For example, I love Marlin Pie's Dr. Doom, but couldn't anyone learn to do what he does? In the end, the only thing anyone is limited by is the game's engine.

Basically uniqueness in playstyle comes from it being possible to craft many forms of combo through a variety of inputs, executions, timings, and hit responses. You basically use the setups and techniques to your comfort and define your playstyle while changing up your personal strategy while necessary.

Basically anyone can learn any combo but that may not be their favorite or go to combo.

 

[Froyo Love]

Reading over this thread is telling. The video is bad. It touches on about a half dozen different things that we're separately talking about but are barely connected.

• Capcom isn't responding appropriately to the community with its game design
• Are fighting games sports with difficult execution that should be celebrated or mental games where execution is a barrier? (middle ground believers are the devil)
• Input lag and limited defensive options are bad for Street Fighter
• High skill gaps are better for the competitive scene
• A game can only be interesting for spectators if it's "flashy" and more aggressive
• Combos should be difficult even for pros so that people are forced to develop different styles based on what they can execute instead of what's optimal

You could make an entire thread (or video) with an interesting discussion about any one of those, but throw them together and it's a mess of talking past each other.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

The thing is, I think basketball is actually an almost perfect analogy for the optimum design in a fighting game. The execution barrier in basketball from beginner to decent/low-intermediate is extremely low; anyone with some athletic skill can learn to dribble, to pass, to shoot, to play basic defense, to read basic elements of the floor. Once you're decent you have the ability to sometimes succeed at any element of the game sometimes, in a conducive environment, without too many distractions or complications. If you can nail a 3 from way downtown even once, you've got a basic ability to apply every "mechanic" in the game and now it's a question of refinement. At the same time, the gap from that "decent" level to good, much less pro, is enormous; there's no question that better players will dominate.

A lot of the time when there are execution barriers in fighting games, the issue is in part that people feel like they can't even "really play" because moves and techniques that seem basic to the experience are already too hard to do. Once you open up the core set of moves and a basic RPS showdown to fairly new players you have a lot of room to add more complex execution cliffs higher up the chain.

(none of this is really different from people who have already talked about how skill floor and ceiling aren't necessarily tied together)

There's an important distinction to make here. Let me illustrate:

Everybody can attempt a 3-pointer on command.
Everybody can attempt a dragon punch motion on command.

Not everybody will sink a 3-pointer on command.
Not everybody will succeed in having the SRK come out on command.

The difference, I believe, is that there's a strong element of visual feedback if you miss a 3 that lets you refine your attempts afterwards. Whereas with a failing a command motion or a combo link in a fighting game, the reasons tend to be murkier unless you have tools like input history in training mode to guide you. Threes also have things like rebound attempts that partially reward you for almost succeeding. The digital nature of video games makes it pretty much all or nothing.

 

[SixMachine]

The thing is, I think basketball is actually an almost perfect analogy for the optimum design in a fighting game. The execution barrier in basketball from beginner to decent/low-intermediate is extremely low; anyone with some athletic skill can learn to dribble, to pass, to shoot, to play basic defense, to read basic elements of the floor. Once you're decent you have the ability to sometimes succeed at any element of the game sometimes, in a conducive environment, without too many distractions or complications. If you can nail a 3 from way downtown even once, you've got a basic ability to apply every "mechanic" in the game and now it's a question of refinement. At the same time, the gap from that "decent" level to good, much less pro, is enormous; there's no question that better players will dominate.

A lot of the time when there are execution barriers in fighting games, the issue is in part that people feel like they can't even "really play" because moves and techniques that seem basic to the experience are already too hard to do. Once you open up the core set of moves and a basic RPS showdown to fairly new players you have a lot of room to add more complex execution cliffs higher up the chain.

(none of this is really different from people who have already talked about how skill floor and ceiling aren't necessarily tied together)

Believe it or not, a lot of games have opened up the core game and have made low entry skill ceilings. Like for example, games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, every sees fancy combos because they are watching experienced players but the first thing everyone learns and uses no matter the level is gatling combos (they are even in the tutorials and early mission mode combos). That literally is just dialing in some buttons in succession, you can even mash randomly and you will get them. Games like Persona 4 Arena and King of Fighters 14 have autocombos, if I mash the A button, I get a whole combo and even a super if I have meter.

These examples are important because conceptually as a new player, I can play a neutral game and try to open up an opponent and always have an easy option to do damage. Even if they are not optimal (which like everything in life, practice needs to be done to perfect anything), you can apply them to the mental aspect of fighting games. I can do the easy combo, I can do throws, I can do a jumping attack, I can do a low attack, all these are executable by anyone new and can open up anyone to the RPS of defense and offense.

 

[FadedRevolution]

Believe it or not, a lot of games have opened up the core game and have made low entry skill ceilings. Like for example, games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, every sees fancy combos because they are watching experienced players but the first thing everyone learns and uses no matter the level is gatling combos (they are even in the tutorials and early mission mode combos). That literally is just dialing in some buttons in succession, you can even mash randomly and you will get them. Games like Persona 4 Arena and King of Fighters 14 have autocombos, if I mash the A button, I get a whole combo and even a super if I have meter.

These examples are important because conceptually as a new player, I can play a neutral game and try to open up an opponent and always have an easy option to do damage. Even if they are not optimal (which like everything in life, practice needs to be done to perfect anything), you can apply them to the mental aspect of fighting games. I can do the easy combo, I can do throws, I can do a jumping attack, I can do a low attack, all these are executable by anyone new and can open up anyone to the RPS of defense and offense.

Are these games fighting games? Cause SFV is the only fighting game that exists bruh.

 

[SixMachine]

Are these games fighting games? Cause SFV is the only fighting game that exists bruh.

I remember SFV from the 90s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YvspShqS_0

 

[Arc Christelle]

Anybody can chuck a fireball with a bit of practice. Hell, you can occasionally throw a hadouken by just mashing buttons and directions, since that's kind of how the input was originally designed as a "secret" move. A person who literally has no ability to use his hands can play Street Fighter at a baseline competitive level (I dare you to respond to QisTopTier btw, who IIRC has some form of muscular dystrophy yet still competes at EVO). Shut the fuck up if you think basic command inputs require anywhere near the absurd amount of requirements you've concocted in your head.

Woah, temper temper my man. Always show respect, even if someone is or may be wrong.

Believe it or not, a lot of games have opened up the core game and have made low entry skill ceilings. Like for example, games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, every sees fancy combos because they are watching experienced players but the first thing everyone learns and uses no matter the level is gatling combos (they are even in the tutorials and early mission mode combos). That literally is just dialing in some buttons in succession, you can even mash randomly and you will get them. Games like Persona 4 Arena and King of Fighters 14 have autocombos, if I mash the A button, I get a whole combo and even a super if I have meter.

These examples are important because conceptually as a new player, I can play a neutral game and try to open up an opponent and always have an easy option to do damage. Even if they are not optimal (which like everything in life, practice needs to be done to perfect anything), you can apply them to the mental aspect of fighting games. I can do the easy combo, I can do throws, I can do a jumping attack, I can do a low attack, all these are executable by anyone new and can open up anyone to the RPS of defense and offense.

I wish KOFXIV had an option to remove the autocombo feature. It gets in the way for me when I'm in the lab sometimes.

 

[SixMachine]

I wish KOFXIV had an option to remove the autocombo feature. It gets in the way for me when I'm in the lab sometimes.

Lol I understand the feeling. I do try to be careful when I do standing jabs, but luckily I use characters with good cr.B or cr.A like Benimaru or MuiMui that I don't need to stand up and try to do st.A to confirm anything into a combo.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Lol I understand the feeling. I do try to be careful when I do standing jabs, but luckily I use characters with good cr.B or cr.A like Benimaru or MuiMui that I don't need to stand up and try to do st.A to confirm anything into a combo.

Same, it's interesting considering KOF has always focused on landing heavies first then transitioning to lights. When I was experimenting with Meitenkun and I wanted to check the timing of jabs, it happened, and I was like, "This shit still here?"

 

[Drek]

I'd just like to see a fighting game built with as close to zero lag as possible, then a "weardown" mechanic on both heavy offense and heavy defense, i.e. the number of valid links and frame spacing on those links in a big combo get fewer and tighter the higher you go, while the frame spacing on blocking/countering narrows the more you counter.

So a blocking mechanic that's like, 3 frames to start minus .25 frames per block, so by the 4th block you're at 2 frames, by the 8th you're at 1, then plateau there.

And on combos it'd be like, hit 1 to hit 2, any button with a fat window, but by hit 4 to hit 5 you've got only a handful of options with tight windows of execution.

Then not only do casuals feel like they're doing well by bulling off solid and satisfying 3 and 4 hit combos, the ones who get good enough to know the 5 or 6 hit combos will know how hard it is and will be in awe of the 7+ hit combo pros.

Meanwhile the pro scene would learn these weardowns and extended combos would come with real danger of being left open for a counter when you've only got one or two moves left. Do you end the combo early or risk that they can't execute the frame timing to counter you?

 

[QisTopTier]

And on combos it'd be like, hit 1 to hit 2, any button with a fat window, but by hit 4 to hit 5 you've got only a handful of options with tight windows of execution.

This is already how ASW games do combos

more specificlly blazblue

Hitstun Decay[edit]
As a combo goes on, the amount of hitstun each attack deals is reduced as it reaches certain time thresholds. Hitstun/Untechable decay is determined by the amount of time that has passed in the combo as well as what starter is used.

Guilty Gear's is a little more complex

 

[SomeRandomAnon]

I just want to say that the assumption that the fighting game genre was dead prior to Street Fighter IV breaks down upon the first investigation.

What people truly mean is that "fighting game genre (Street Fighter) was dead (in North America) prior to Street Fighter 4)"

 

[Nightii]

Woah, temper temper my man. Always show respect, even if someone is or may be wrong.

Yeah, like the respect that always gets shown on these kinds of threads for all the robotic no-lifers that surely spend several thousand hours practicing combos instead of being productive to society.

 

[Chronospherics]

Injustice 2 is a better game that SFV, yes, but it's arguable. Injustice's biggest weakness is it's gameplay involving constant rushdown and 50/50s, but SFV has the same problem. Injustice has weird animations but better looking models and facial animations so it balances out. And zoning still works. Wherever you fall on the gameplay scale, you'd either like it more or less than SFV, but in every other aspect, from modes to netcode to graphics, it's a blowout.

Street Fighter isn't underpinned by 50/50s for most of the cast. Laura and Mika create 50/50s with their command grabs (as all command grapplers tend to do) but it's hardly the 50/50 hellscape that Injustice or MK are.

At the moment, Guile is considered the strongest character in SFV, and his gameplay isn't underpinned by 50/50s. At least not in the same sense that we're talking about with games like MK, where the 50/50 setups are built into the characters moveset.

 

[crimzonflame]

Tekken 7 is will save us all.

 

[Onemic]

Street Fighter isn't underpinned by 50/50s for most of the cast. Laura and Mika create 50/50s with their command grabs (as all command grapplers tend to do) but it's hardly the 50/50 hellscape that Injustice or MK are.

At the moment, Guile is considered the strongest character in SFV, and his gameplay isn't underpinned by 50/50s. At least not in the same sense that we're talking about with games like MK, where the 50/50 setups are built into the characters moveset.

Guile isnt Balrog

 

[Arc Christelle]

Yeah, like the respect that always gets shown on these kinds of threads for all the robotic no-lifers that surely spend several thousand hours practicing combos instead of being productive to society.

lol I know how you feel but someone has to be the adult and articulate. It's much easier to sway and convince a person of their misguided view to treat them like a person than beating them across the head with your point.

Guile isnt Balrog

I almost burst out laughing on a call with a customer when I read that.

 

[Chronospherics]

Guile isnt Balrog

Having an overhead that combos doesn't mean that the entire game is based off of 50/50s.

Watch a set with Rog (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ajbRaCUIk). The 50/50 situation occurs maybe once in that set. People act as if it means that the neutral game doesn't exist. Plus, it's not as if characters like Rog are even winning. Urien and Guile, the most prominent characters in the present meta, have incredibly dominant neutral games.

 

[WarRock]

A response to Core-A's video.

I don’t like the use of the word “skill” here because it implies that the skill in a game is some singular thing and that whole thing was reduced, which is wrong. In fact, fighting games consist of several different types of skills, with each game and even character in the genre requiring varying amounts of each skill. Skills such as execution, knowledge, pattern recognition, appraisal (the ability to recognize what’s good and what’s not within an unfamiliar rule set and situation), and more.

Even each skill can be divided into different forms which all come into play. For example, ‘execution’ can be about being able to pull off a hard maneuver, but it can also be about doing that 300th hadouken in a row without any input error, or be about being able to keep your usual level of execution even under pressure. A player can be good at one of these but not at the other two, and that’s before getting into the other skills required to succeed.

What the video did not address at all, is how the lowered execution damaged the other aspects of the game (knowledge, pattern recognition, appraisal…) because it doesn’t. If these aspects are having problems, then it’s a story unrelated to the execution aspect, as presented in the video.

Guilty Gear Xrd made almost every mechanic and every character much easier relative to how it was in the XX series, even things many players will not even notice (like increasing the input buffer window for reversals), and I think the game turned out fine for the most part. The way YRC was built even created additional options on top of the staple ones FRC was commonly used for.

 

[Seasoned Badger]

Having an overhead that combos doesn't mean that the entire game is based off of 50/50s.

Watch a set with Rog (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ajbRaCUIk). The 50/50 situation occurs maybe once in that set. People act as if it means that the neutral game doesn't exist. Plus, it's not as if characters like Rog are even winning. Urien and Guile, the most prominent characters in the present meta, have incredibly dominant neutral games.

Why would you link a match from season 1 as your example of how Rog isn't top tier in season 2 or his entire game isn't built off 50/50s? Rog can force a 50/50 in multiple situations, multiple times due to the ability to cancel to his v-skill overhead or v-skill feint > c.lk combo off of almost everything. It's incredibly effective during v-trigger when he can corner carry you off activation and force the 50/50 multiple times.

edit: Rog's 50/50 game also wasn't as good in Season 1 due meterless invincible DPs.

 

[charlequin]

The difference, I believe, is that there's a strong element of visual feedback if you miss a 3 that lets you refine your attempts afterwards. Whereas with a failing a command motion or a combo link in a fighting game, the reasons tend to be murkier unless you have tools like input history in training mode to guide you. Threes also have things like rebound attempts that partially reward you for almost succeeding. The digital nature of video games makes it pretty much all or nothing.

That's a good point, it can be pretty challenging to improve your skills on tight timing windows due to lack of feedback. And it's harder to leverage "I can do this combo X% of the time" into success the way you would with "I can hit this 3 X% of the time."

Believe it or not, a lot of games have opened up the core game and have made low entry skill ceilings.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that no one was doing the stuff I was talking about there.

 

[Trup1aya]

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

Holy broken analogy Batman.

Making combos easier to pull off would be akin to moving the 3point line closer to the hoop- increasing the chances of average players approaching Steph Curry's record without actually possessing Steph Curry's skill.

Sure 'anyone' with practice can shoot 3's with the current rules. But if they want to be able to shoot 3's with Steph Curry's accuracy while being guarded by Steph Curry's opponents, they would need to be exceptional and put forth years of work.

 

[Renekton]

Question about the analogy:

Is punishment for dropped combo comparable to long rebounds off missed 3pt?

 

[Arc Christelle]

Question about the analogy:

Is punishment for dropped combo comparable to long rebounds off missed 3pt?

Opposing team instantly blows you up with a 41 pt lead in the second quarter.

 

[LinkSlayer64]

W A S H E D U P

No, an actual comparison would be successfully driving the ball the court past defense, and scoring, which would be equivalent to a successful combo.

If you want to get a bit more video game about it, see NBA Street.

Basically uniqueness in playstyle comes from it being possible to craft many forms of combo through a variety of inputs, executions, timings, and hit responses. You basically use the setups and techniques to your comfort and define your playstyle while changing up your personal strategy while necessary.

Basically anyone can learn any combo but that may not be their favorite or go to combo.

Thanks to all who took the time to respond to me. So now my question is, does SFV really lack such variety due to its frame windows on combos? (As that seemed to be the main complaint.)

 

[Arc Christelle]

Thanks to all who took the time to respond to me. So now my question is, does SFV really lack such variety due to its frame windows on combos? (As that seemed to be the main complaint.)

I don't think so, I remember seeing a S2 Smug Rog mirror like back in probably Feb/March, he got waxed (His earlier Rog days) but the two had very different styles. I don't totally subscribe to the idea of it lacking variety due to frame windows but more on what Capcom/Dimps are willing to allow, as nowadays in modern SF entries they are usually reluctant to embrace various forms of combos, especially juggling, probably from fear of turning off the fanbase.

But all the complaints about V reminds me of the early days of IV. Which I recall having the same complaints personally, nowadays I don't really subscribe to the idea anymore, but I have realized that Dimps Street Fighter entries may not be for me, and that in itself is okay.

 

[Lionel Richie]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

I fucking love this post.

 

[The Light]

A response to Core-A's video.

This was a great response.

 

[AudioTechnica]

You know what? I'm tired of the absurd execution requirements of basketball. The game should only be about outplaying your opponent; if you can do that, the points should be automatic. Every shot should hit the basket, guaranteed. I don't have time to grind thousands of shots in training mode to get them right, nobody has time for that! All these nerds like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan wasted their whole life in training mode and now they want to ruin the game for everyone, just because they're salty. Just because they feel their precious game is threatened! Fuck that crap. I won't play basketball anymore unless they make it more accessible and remove arbitrary execution barriers that benefit no one aside from the few nerds that are playing the game since forever.

Video games isn't a sport. Sorry to hurt your ego.

I'm all for games of physical skill being deterministic. You can't just overcome a physical barrier. If I'm 5' 10" 140 I'll never, ever beat LBJ in a basketball game since I can't over come 6'10" 250 or whatever he is(and he's a basketball genius). But video games are just a game. You think the best Monopoly player has more than a 10% edge against a good amateur? It's not that complex - anyone can learn the strategies in, and I'm being generous, a couple of days. You just have to handle the variance and it's better for the game.

 

[FadedRevolution]

Video games isn't a sport. Sorry to hurt your ego.

I'm all for games of physical skill being deterministic. You can't just overcome a physical barrier. If I'm 5' 10" 140 I'll never, ever beat LBJ in a basketball game since I can't over come 6'10" 250 or whatever he is(and he's a basketball genius). But video games are just a game. You think the best Monopoly player has more than a 10% edge against a good amateur? It's not that complex - anyone can learn the strategies in, and I'm being generous, a couple of days. You just have to handle the variance and it's better for the game.

Basketball is just a game as well so whats your point?

 

[RM8]

The mechanics of basketball aren't particularly obtuse, it's actually pretty straightforward. And someone who isn't in peak shape might be a better player than an athlete who has never played basketball, so yeah. Execution in fighting games =/= physical fitness.

 

[Arc Christelle]

The mechanics of basketball aren't particularly obtuse, it's actually pretty straightforward. And someone who isn't in peak shape might be a better player than an athlete who has never played basketball, so yeah. Execution in fighting games =/= physical fitness.

I don't know, I suck at basketball, but did you know if you move down and over to the front extending your hand, is the equivalent of a qcf+p/hadouken?

Video games isn't a sport. Sorry to hurt your ego.

I'm all for games of physical skill being deterministic. You can't just overcome a physical barrier. If I'm 5' 10" 140 I'll never, ever beat LBJ in a basketball game since I can't over come 6'10" 250 or whatever he is(and he's a basketball genius). But video games are just a game. You think the best Monopoly player has more than a 10% edge against a good amateur? It's not that complex - anyone can learn the strategies in, and I'm being generous, a couple of days. You just have to handle the variance and it's better for the game.

Not every game is for everybody. You have options, there's Smash Bros., Pokken, Tekken, VF, DOA, Evil Zone, go find the game for you.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

You really don't need to bring up sports at all to support execution requirements in fighting games anyway. All this e-sports shit and seeking validation from real sports can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, that's besides the point.

 

[Freshmaker]

But most anyone can shoot a 3 pointer occasionally with a bit of practice.

Now take that example, and imagine that 3 pointers only counted if you were on the right side of the court at a 15 degree angle relative to the backboard and took the shot between 13 and 12 seconds on the shot clock while having dribbled the ball no more than twice. And they changed the rules so you can shoot any time between 15 and 10 seconds and it'll still count for three, and then all the pro players started complaining that the skill gap in basketball was too low.

Because that's fighting games.

Only if you overthink them to the Nth degree and mentally cripple yourself in the process.

This video proves that shooting a three pointer is hyper complicated. Highly dependent on context and microsecond timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOiH1eVCggw

First comment gets it tho.

Cool Broseph1 year ago
Sports Science: So Curry do you take any of this into consideration when shooting

Curry: Bruh I just shoot the ball ._.​

 

[Chronospherics]

Why would you link a match from season 1 as your example of how Rog isn't top tier in season 2 or his entire game isn't built off 50/50s? Rog can force a 50/50 in multiple situations, multiple times due to the ability to cancel to his v-skill overhead or v-skill feint > c.lk combo off of almost everything. It's incredibly effective during v-trigger when he can corner carry you off activation and force the 50/50 multiple times.

edit: Rog's 50/50 game also wasn't as good in Season 1 due meterless invincible DPs.

How much is coming off of the 50/50 here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJv88n50LzE

Just because he can combo off of his overhead, does not mean that the entire game is built off of 50/50s. Overheads have considerably slower startup so that players can react to them, and in the match above Shine just crouch blocks and then shift stance on reaction to block the overhead. It's not even a true 50/50, and it's not an the core of Balrog's gameplan.

Characters like Necalli, Laura and Mika have much more threatening, true 50/50s, but again, it's not the same as it is in games like Injustice. In Injustice, overheads can be fast and they're also often safe. Robin for instance, can start his BNBs off of his overhead > low string. Nothing comparable features in SFV aside, to a degree, the command grabs.

It's also ironic to complain about 50/50s and the lack of defensive options (meterless reversals) at the same time, as a reverasal in that sense, is very much a 50/50 scenario, so in that particular respect, S1 featured a heavier orientation to 50/50 gameplay as players relied on reversals more frequently.

 

[lucebuce12]

Also mention the plethora of defensive options available in Injustice 2 if you're gonna draw a comparison. But I guess that's just not worth mentioning.