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Core-A Gaming: Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap (in fighting games)
- Thread starter Tizoc
- Start date
NRS games are better than SFV? And "unanimous opinion" that GG is the best fighting game on the market? Hmm that's all highly subjective and you know it. You may think that, but you are of course, entitled to your own opinion - just don't bundle everyone else in that point of view.
So just because you pay "good money" to go to a tournament that must mean they should cater to you and forget about thier entire audience that plays thier games? Diago works just as hard playing SFV so to downplay him just because he can't do arbitrary 1-framelinks in SFV is kind of shitty.
Chronospherics
Member
The example is they use at the start is pretty weird. The parry is a v-skill ability unique to Ryu in V, it would be pretty crap if his V-Skill required incredible timing to be useful, when everyone else's has more all around utility. The parries in each game exist in a different context. So the comparison isn't at all equal or fair.
I also really disagree with the idea that execution is fundamental for games to have significant, skill driven moments for players. The most successful esports are games like League of Legends, and these games generally don't have any complexity to their execution of any one individual element. For instance, you can move your character around and execute all of your powers without any specific mechanical requirement to be fulfilled. It doesn't require that base-level mechanical skill-floor in order to drive those moments. Decisions and reactions make those high-level moments, and I feel that's what SFV has attempted to capture.
Ultimately let's remember that the FGC isn't built on those individual moments. For all that the high-execution and incredible skill gap of SFIII was worth, its competitive scene was proportionally short lived. While players enjoyed the parry system, outside of some really amazing moments, the game wasn't loved by spectators or players. In reality Core A Gaming's suggestion that building the game with the 'most invested' players is a potential way forward for fighting games and Capcom, is a good way to kill the your series and the genre.
This doesn't mean that I am in any way, defending the mechanics of SFV. The series is hard rooted in its competitive community and there certainly could have been more done to encourage those high-skill, elevated moments that only the best of the best can achieve. Purely as an example, you could remove 1 frame links (as they have in SFV) but return a mechanic like SFVs parry system, and then still retain a system that allows the best players to express themselves.
SSFIV's problem was that the skill floor was too high for new players. The game wasn't easy to pick up, characters like Rose featured 1 frame links in even their most basic, bread and butter combos. On top of the 40+ roster of characters and difficulty learning all of those matchups, the game became inapproproachable for new comers. I remember seeing commentaries where top players were noting that it wasn't worth picking the game up as the difference between a new and veteran player was almost insurmountable.
Ultimately Core-A-Gaming aren't wrong that the ideal fighting gmae should be player focused, but that includes all players, not just those at the upper echelon of the existing competitive scene. Indeed, there are means that both casual fans, pros and spectators can all be accommodated, and they don't boil down to anything especially complicated. The notion that games, and in particular competitive games need to be easy to play but tough to master is frequently recognised by guides to game design, and this is where most fighting games tend to falter.
At the same time, none of these games offer sufficient tutorials or support for new players to pick up the game from scratch. While games like SFV may be easy for people that are familiar with the genre, they aren't for those that aren't, and the incentive to learn isn't as prominent anymore, as these games do not exist in a vacuum. It's not 1995 and the standards for usability, tutorialling and user-centric difficulty are much better than they were, yet fighting games haven't changed. Why would players play fighting games when they get better entertainment value from something else? Why sit their struggling to learn the basics to play a character when they can pick up more popular games faster, and enjoy playing them?
Game designers often refers to SDT (self-determination theory) as a means of explaining why people are motivated to play video games, and a significant component of that theory is that players need to feel competent when playing the game. They need to have goals in which they can pursue in order to get and receive positive feedback for pursuing those goals, fighting games at large don't offer that, and there's little incentive to learn. This is true in SFV, and true in SSFIV, the differences in the ease of playing these games only takes effect at an intermediate level, and fail the consumer that's new to the game.
Could SFV benefit from a higher skill ceiling? Sure, but so too could many other titles benefit from a lower skill-floor. This is why games like CSGO, Call of Duty, League and DoTa have been able to drive strong competitive communities. They are incredibly accessible at a fundamental level, and yet at the same time their skill ceiling is incredible. Capcom act as the face of the FGC and therefore, get a lot of flack for their games, but in reality, there's a lot that the genre at large does wrong.
I also really disagree with the idea that execution is fundamental for games to have significant, skill driven moments for players. The most successful esports are games like League of Legends, and these games generally don't have any complexity to their execution of any one individual element. For instance, you can move your character around and execute all of your powers without any specific mechanical requirement to be fulfilled. It doesn't require that base-level mechanical skill-floor in order to drive those moments. Decisions and reactions make those high-level moments, and I feel that's what SFV has attempted to capture.
Ultimately let's remember that the FGC isn't built on those individual moments. For all that the high-execution and incredible skill gap of SFIII was worth, its competitive scene was proportionally short lived. While players enjoyed the parry system, outside of some really amazing moments, the game wasn't loved by spectators or players. In reality Core A Gaming's suggestion that building the game with the 'most invested' players is a potential way forward for fighting games and Capcom, is a good way to kill the your series and the genre.
This doesn't mean that I am in any way, defending the mechanics of SFV. The series is hard rooted in its competitive community and there certainly could have been more done to encourage those high-skill, elevated moments that only the best of the best can achieve. Purely as an example, you could remove 1 frame links (as they have in SFV) but return a mechanic like SFVs parry system, and then still retain a system that allows the best players to express themselves.
SSFIV's problem was that the skill floor was too high for new players. The game wasn't easy to pick up, characters like Rose featured 1 frame links in even their most basic, bread and butter combos. On top of the 40+ roster of characters and difficulty learning all of those matchups, the game became inapproproachable for new comers. I remember seeing commentaries where top players were noting that it wasn't worth picking the game up as the difference between a new and veteran player was almost insurmountable.
Ultimately Core-A-Gaming aren't wrong that the ideal fighting gmae should be player focused, but that includes all players, not just those at the upper echelon of the existing competitive scene. Indeed, there are means that both casual fans, pros and spectators can all be accommodated, and they don't boil down to anything especially complicated. The notion that games, and in particular competitive games need to be easy to play but tough to master is frequently recognised by guides to game design, and this is where most fighting games tend to falter.
- Street Fighter V is quite easy to play thanks to considerable input lenience, but once you know how to play it, it's relatively easy to master due to a lack of complex or nuanced mechanics
- Street Fighter IV is difficult to play, with high execution combos featuring even in basic strings (e.g. Rose or Ryu's 1 frame BnBs).
- Injustice and MK feature similar problems to SFV, they're pretty easy to play, at least for intermediate to pro players, and from there there's not a lot to do
At the same time, none of these games offer sufficient tutorials or support for new players to pick up the game from scratch. While games like SFV may be easy for people that are familiar with the genre, they aren't for those that aren't, and the incentive to learn isn't as prominent anymore, as these games do not exist in a vacuum. It's not 1995 and the standards for usability, tutorialling and user-centric difficulty are much better than they were, yet fighting games haven't changed. Why would players play fighting games when they get better entertainment value from something else? Why sit their struggling to learn the basics to play a character when they can pick up more popular games faster, and enjoy playing them?
Game designers often refers to SDT (self-determination theory) as a means of explaining why people are motivated to play video games, and a significant component of that theory is that players need to feel competent when playing the game. They need to have goals in which they can pursue in order to get and receive positive feedback for pursuing those goals, fighting games at large don't offer that, and there's little incentive to learn. This is true in SFV, and true in SSFIV, the differences in the ease of playing these games only takes effect at an intermediate level, and fail the consumer that's new to the game.
Could SFV benefit from a higher skill ceiling? Sure, but so too could many other titles benefit from a lower skill-floor. This is why games like CSGO, Call of Duty, League and DoTa have been able to drive strong competitive communities. They are incredibly accessible at a fundamental level, and yet at the same time their skill ceiling is incredible. Capcom act as the face of the FGC and therefore, get a lot of flack for their games, but in reality, there's a lot that the genre at large does wrong.
Arc Christelle
Member
High Level Yun's and Chun's don't happen often in competitive 3rd Strike as people like to claim and even still, there is a huge variety because the mechanics rely more on player ability than character matchup/ability thus leaving a huge source of variety.
Like you can compare Nitto and Boss and see a huge difference.
Like Compare Sugiyama's Necro to PinoA7 or Pierrot's Remy to YOU's. Urien players like RX and RB, Makoto players like Kuroda and Tominaga.
Matter in fact the 3rd Strike Youtube page has player showcases that show the differences between so many players' styles.
And never forget in 3S you can pick a Yun or Chun but it doesn't stop shit like this from happening.
crimzonflame
Member
What a well made and informative video. Fuck you Capcom.
Arc Christelle
Member
I mean imagine Team based games with high skill ceilings when its already a struggle to coordinate with 4 other people.
Also parrying being Ryu's V-Skill is pretty stupid imo.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Uhh since when did Tekken 3 do that?
FadedRevolution
Member
I think he means putting buttons like LP + RP on one button. Which is basically in all fighting games.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I mean you can do that in almost any fighter though lol
This was a really good video but there's a few things the author did that I felt were a little disingenuous.
He showed Combofiend talking about how Lupe Fiasco was able to beat Daigo in SFV and attributed that to Capcom's efforts to make the game more accessible. But it's not like Daigo really lost to Lupe Fiasco. It was a match for the SFV launch party and Daigo was clearly going easy on Lupe. What likely happened is Daigo threw the first few matches and lost the set because he assumed it was going to be longer. Or he threw the whole thing. Doesn't matter what happened but it's clear that Lupe didn't beat him fairly.
So when Combofiend was asked that he gave a PR answer (because he's basically Capcom's FG PR guy now). Although Capcom did try and make the game more accessible I wouldn't take Combofiend's response to that question as being sincere.
Regardless, I don't think anyone who actually plays SFV thinks the game was made too accessible for players of Lupe's skill level who probably would never place in a tournament legitimately. SFV's design moreso crunched the intermediate and expert tiers of skill so there's less distance between the two. That's why the pros are pissed off at the game because people who are great at the game but not the best can pick up matches and rounds due to the comeback heavy nature of SFV.
Comparatively, SFIV's style of comebacks benefited players who player knew how to play Street Fighter outside of knowing how to do motions for supers. So the big deal with that game was the beginner and novice skill tiers were condensed when novice players would get blow up by beginners mashing Ultra on wake up or in block strings. That never had an impact on pro players because that shit was way too risky and, when it did work, it was really cool to see one player throw a hail mary and for the Ultra to actually land.
I've mentioned this elsewhere but the author of this video targeting 3f buffer as dumbing down the game gives it way more credit than it deserves. If Capcom removed the 3f buffer in the next patch the combo game wouldn't change one iota in tourney matches. Pros would still do the best, most efficient combos and they would still drop them as frequently (which is occasionally because despite combos being dirt easy in SFV pros still drop them under pressure). They would have to do a lot more than removing a buffer that tons of fighting games use, including many with much harder execution, to open up combo variety.
He showed Combofiend talking about how Lupe Fiasco was able to beat Daigo in SFV and attributed that to Capcom's efforts to make the game more accessible. But it's not like Daigo really lost to Lupe Fiasco. It was a match for the SFV launch party and Daigo was clearly going easy on Lupe. What likely happened is Daigo threw the first few matches and lost the set because he assumed it was going to be longer. Or he threw the whole thing. Doesn't matter what happened but it's clear that Lupe didn't beat him fairly.
So when Combofiend was asked that he gave a PR answer (because he's basically Capcom's FG PR guy now). Although Capcom did try and make the game more accessible I wouldn't take Combofiend's response to that question as being sincere.
Regardless, I don't think anyone who actually plays SFV thinks the game was made too accessible for players of Lupe's skill level who probably would never place in a tournament legitimately. SFV's design moreso crunched the intermediate and expert tiers of skill so there's less distance between the two. That's why the pros are pissed off at the game because people who are great at the game but not the best can pick up matches and rounds due to the comeback heavy nature of SFV.
Comparatively, SFIV's style of comebacks benefited players who player knew how to play Street Fighter outside of knowing how to do motions for supers. So the big deal with that game was the beginner and novice skill tiers were condensed when novice players would get blow up by beginners mashing Ultra on wake up or in block strings. That never had an impact on pro players because that shit was way too risky and, when it did work, it was really cool to see one player throw a hail mary and for the Ultra to actually land.
I've mentioned this elsewhere but the author of this video targeting 3f buffer as dumbing down the game gives it way more credit than it deserves. If Capcom removed the 3f buffer in the next patch the combo game wouldn't change one iota in tourney matches. Pros would still do the best, most efficient combos and they would still drop them as frequently (which is occasionally because despite combos being dirt easy in SFV pros still drop them under pressure). They would have to do a lot more than removing a buffer that tons of fighting games use, including many with much harder execution, to open up combo variety.
That's not what people are saying. We're saying "people who are better at doing combos should be able to consistently beat people who are worse at doing combos". Otherwise there's no point to competition.
Ain't that the truth lol.
lucebuce12
Member
They've even made Tekken 7 easier to play by making throw breaking much easier and adding Rage Arts. But nobody's complained that the game is too easy or that there isn't enough depth. It's actually the best example of making a game easier, making it more appealing to spectators and STILL keeping depth. Part of that is also legitimately good balancing which Capcpom is shit at.
Injustice is indeed scrub friendly, but more in the SFIV sense. A legitimately good player will almost always win against a lesser player but the lesser player doesn't feel demotivated because they can easily get slaughtered like they can in SFV. IJ2 is more scrub friendly as compared to SFV, but the high level play also has more depth (different systems, granted, but still).
Every single character is basically all shoto moves. I am not seeing how Injustice is harder than SFV ... only if you go to the pro side of stuff, which I can't say anything about it.
Tekken is not hard ... everyone can make moves come out and have fun playing.
Again, you might be talking about pro stuff, which is not what I am talking about. Because the only people who cares about the pros is the pros.
Both games have insanely low skill floors. Which means everyone can do the flashy stuff. This is how you focus on spectacle or casual audience, not with sponsors or whatever.
BUT A PRO GAMER LOOSES HIS ARTISTIC EXPRESSION !
...play another game then if this is so important to you =P
I said they are focusing on the pros but trying to make it accessible.
And that the video wants to make it more focused on the pros and less accessible.
The dude in the video was dead when he managed to do the Daigo parry so easily in SFV.
I was jumping and cheering when I finally managed to make the Daigo parry in SFV.
So except for the lag stuff, I don't see how anything he mentioned would benefit the majority of the paying audience of the game.
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
I feel like fighting games need a complete revamp someday. I don't know what the next big thing will be for them, but some dev somewhere has to make the genre change. The way we play them now is interesting because we're constantly seeing devs try to implement ways for more casual fans to get into them. But this isn't what made fighters popular to begin with. So whatever the genre is going through right now isn't really making anyone happy. Someday we'll see a truly defining fighting game that will make them popular again.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Execution has long been a primary focus for the fighting game community; at least in part because it's something that can be rationalized as making video games "a real sport". That need to equate sport with raw physical capability of the human body.
I don't know if the emphasis on combo execution difficulty is really that important though. Sure, some pros like showing it off just because they like it, and that's fine. But there should be way more to a game in terms of skill gap than just how bizarre and tricky a particular link in a combo is to pull off.
I'd vote for SFV's bigger problems being a lack of overall mechanics and stuff like the V-system being undercooked for most characters, thus making the game come across as very bare bones. Plus some fundamental balance concepts. None of that has anything to do with how difficult links are.
Like, Guilty Gear is being held up by some as a game that lets pros show off combo skill but there's WAY more to GG than combos that sets pros apart from casual players. So many ways systems are used, the nuance of matchups, and really deep strategy around the game's meta systems.
I don't know if the emphasis on combo execution difficulty is really that important though. Sure, some pros like showing it off just because they like it, and that's fine. But there should be way more to a game in terms of skill gap than just how bizarre and tricky a particular link in a combo is to pull off.
I'd vote for SFV's bigger problems being a lack of overall mechanics and stuff like the V-system being undercooked for most characters, thus making the game come across as very bare bones. Plus some fundamental balance concepts. None of that has anything to do with how difficult links are.
Like, Guilty Gear is being held up by some as a game that lets pros show off combo skill but there's WAY more to GG than combos that sets pros apart from casual players. So many ways systems are used, the nuance of matchups, and really deep strategy around the game's meta systems.
Baleoce
Member
Been watching Red Bull Kumite today, and it has been fun, but it's been a stark reminder that this season is all about aggressive play in SFV. Whoever has been the most aggressive has won their respective matches all day. There doesn't seem room for defensive archetypes here at all. Daigo was criticised for playing defensive in his opening match against xyzzy which he lost, and now against Phenom he outdid him by playing him at his own game and playing even more aggressive than him. It's just all pure rushdown.
molnizzle
Member
The timing of executing combos. Being able to reliably do what I want to do in a match. So fucking frustrating to know how I should have won a round but fail to do so because I dropped a combo or mis-timed a punish.
You still see this by Pro players too. Rounds lost due to dropped inputs. It's fucking dumb.
"git gud"
Guess what, most people don't want to work at getting enjoyment out of a game. FGC is in the extreme motherfucking minority here and you just need to accept that.
Arcades have been fucking dead for nearly two decades now. Designing commands around a dead input device is just bad design at this point. You can't "plink" with Karin when you hold a controller like a normal person. That shouldn't be a thing.
Every single character is basically all shoto moves. I am not seeing how Injustice is harder than SFV ... only if you go to the pro side of stuff, which I can't say anything about it.
Tekken is not hard ... everyone can make moves come out and have fun playing.
Again, you might be talking about pro stuff, which is not what I am talking about. Because the only people who cares about the pros is the pros.
Both games have insanely low skill floors. Which means everyone can do the flashy stuff. This is how you focus on spectacle or casual audience, not with sponsors or whatever.
BUT A PRO GAMER LOOSES HIS ARTISTIC EXPRESSION !
...play another game then if this is so important to you =P
I said they are focusing on the pros but trying to make it accessible.
And that the video wants to make it more focused on the pros and less accessible.
The dude in the video was dead when he managed to do the Daigo parry so easily in SFV.
I was jumping and cheering when I finally managed to make the Daigo parry in SFV.
So except for the lag stuff, I don't see how anything he mentioned would benefit the majority of the paying audience of the game.
Have you learned how to Korean backdash, bruh?
Holy Order Sol
Member
I realize that they don't want to do it and my point is still that it's on them. You get out what you put in.
You think you should have won. But you dropped your shit. That's you. You don't decide the outcome of a match, the game does. You don't get to act like it's some sort of barrier. You get to play, you'll just lose more.
Arc Christelle
Member
I mean MVC3 was literally babby's first mahvel.
sixteen-bit
Member
Great video as usual
molnizzle
Member
That's fine, but when the games sell poorly don't be surprised when franchises are killed off.
SFV didn't sell poorly because of the inputs lol.
Holy Order Sol
Member
I'm also in favor of more reasonable budgets and sales expectations so that companies don't do stupid shit like bloated games that cost gazillions to make for no good reason.
Tekken is still advanced and doing it's thing in Japan and elsewhere outside of the U.S. KOF is huge in South East Asia and South America. This whole bullshit about people not liking advanced game play is blown out of proportion.
Why do you even play games if you want everything handed to you? Go watch a YT video.
Why do you even play games if you want everything handed to you? Go watch a YT video.
molnizzle
Member
Not saying it did. I'm saying it sold poorly because there wasn't enough meat there for casual players.
...which possibly could have been fine if the inputs were more streamlined to help newcomers get into competitive play. As it is right now, there's nothing there for normal people.
Arc Christelle
Member
This.
Remember, the majority of people that shit on 3s falls along the line of: why block when you can parry everything, without fault.
UcchedavÄda
Member
Being able to do combos is just one skill that you need as a fighting game player, but it is probably not the most important one. You can be the better player at doing combos, but if your opponent outclasses you in neutral then you are not going to get a chance to make use of those combos.
freethoughtbubble
Member
I didn't say it was perfect =p
Edit: The argument that complex inputs turns off casual players is a red herring. Give them compelling single player content and they'll enjoy the game in their own way. Everyone can in fact win.
Yes so on the other hand a more complex game can sell well if it has the SP content people want as seen with Tekken, SFIV, etc.
DoubleTake
Member
I will never understand people's longing to be catered to and be good at something they put absolutely no time or effort into getting decent at.
You dont get to be mad at brain surgery being difficult to perform because you dont have the dexterity or knowledge to pull it off. Why should you in a video that is BY NATURE competitive?
If you drop combos and lose matches so what? You didnt put in the time to keep that from happening on a consistent basis. You will lose to those who have. And you will most likely be matched more often with other who are in the same skill level as you.
As for SFV specifically the game has devolved into 1 touch v trigger comback shenanigans. RTSD all day. Its why its always a joy to watch players like Momochi who say screw the meta and play an extremely methodical way and still manage to win. SFV's problems stem from Normals that are too stubby and difficult to punish, and bad defensive options.
You dont get to be mad at brain surgery being difficult to perform because you dont have the dexterity or knowledge to pull it off. Why should you in a video that is BY NATURE competitive?
If you drop combos and lose matches so what? You didnt put in the time to keep that from happening on a consistent basis. You will lose to those who have. And you will most likely be matched more often with other who are in the same skill level as you.
As for SFV specifically the game has devolved into 1 touch v trigger comback shenanigans. RTSD all day. Its why its always a joy to watch players like Momochi who say screw the meta and play an extremely methodical way and still manage to win. SFV's problems stem from Normals that are too stubby and difficult to punish, and bad defensive options.
FadedRevolution
Member
Don't blame the game for your mistakes. Messing up and losing because of it is not exclusive to fighting games you know? I mean basketball players still miss shots, baseball players still strike out, musicians still miss notes, football players still miss kicks. Just because the other player was able to hold it together better than you does not mean that the game is bad it just means you couldn't hold your composure.
It's always a good reminder that the reason why SF5's gameplay is like it is because of all the complaints about SF4's gameplay. It's only been a year and people already forget how badly these were bitched about:
- Tight links in SF4 were made more lenient with the buffer
- SF4 having a lot of option selects means Capcom is specifically weeding them out in SF5
- SF4 lets you play quite defensive, SF5 grts rid of most of the tools enabling this
- Dragon punches were considered too good in SF4, now you barely see them
- Releasing ultra and super versions in an era where most of the world had no arcades
I'm not even sure they were trying to make a more casual/spectator friendly game so much as trying to address some really specific complaints in the gameplay.
I've been saying that it's pretty sure the best Capcom can do with Street Fighter is wrap up SF5 with the current season and add an arcade mode and then start working on an SF6 for the next gen of consoles. Maybe they'll have ideas on how to evolve the series.
- Tight links in SF4 were made more lenient with the buffer
- SF4 having a lot of option selects means Capcom is specifically weeding them out in SF5
- SF4 lets you play quite defensive, SF5 grts rid of most of the tools enabling this
- Dragon punches were considered too good in SF4, now you barely see them
- Releasing ultra and super versions in an era where most of the world had no arcades
I'm not even sure they were trying to make a more casual/spectator friendly game so much as trying to address some really specific complaints in the gameplay.
I've been saying that it's pretty sure the best Capcom can do with Street Fighter is wrap up SF5 with the current season and add an arcade mode and then start working on an SF6 for the next gen of consoles. Maybe they'll have ideas on how to evolve the series.
molnizzle
Member
listen
you can't plink with karin on a gamepad without clawing or some other stupid shit.
that is my problem okay, i literally can't do most of her better combos.
Chronospherics
Member
Every single character is basically all shoto moves. I am not seeing how Injustice is harder than SFV ... only if you go to the pro side of stuff, which I can't say anything about it.
Tekken is not hard ... everyone can make moves come out and have fun playing.
Again, you might be talking about pro stuff, which is not what I am talking about. Because the only people who cares about the pros is the pros.
Both games have insanely low skill floors. Which means everyone can do the flashy stuff. This is how you focus on spectacle or casual audience, not with sponsors or whatever.
BUT A PRO GAMER LOOSES HIS ARTISTIC EXPRESSION !
...play another game then if this is so important to you =P
I said they are focusing on the pros but trying to make it accessible.
And that the video wants to make it more focused on the pros and less accessible.
The dude in the video was dead when he managed to do the Daigo parry so easily in SFV.
I was jumping and cheering when I finally managed to make the Daigo parry in SFV.
So except for the lag stuff, I don't see how anything he mentioned would benefit the majority of the paying audience of the game.
Injustice isn't harder than SFV, people just see longer combos and feel that that makes it a harder game. Injustice has almost no footsies, and focuses on relatively simplistic bnbs.
Injustice is inaccessible to new players, because those simple combos seem impossible, but to mid-level players it's a very simple game. Particularly as the structure and combos between one character to the next are all pretty similar. It's just a matter of browsing their move list until you find the ones that are useful and then stringing them together with a move that forces the opponent to juggle. That, plus most of the best characters are zoners, which is a pretty simple game to play most of the time.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
The priorities part of this is the BIG takeaway from this, I feel. If one's priorities are different than what is best for them then you'll have salt. Salt like FChamp's complaints about lack of defensive options degrading into a completely different rant and Capcpom's thought process in nerfing stuff like DPs and of Infiltration's Hit 'N Run Nash or the other end the raw reaction to any difficulty to practice or encountered exclusivity from scrubs.
Something being "2 CASUL" or "2 TEH H@RDCORE" is a really, really difficult mentality to shake as it not only is calling for a product to be something it's not, but is far too often a recipe for it to become something it isn't, and that has lead numberous times to a market that may not appreciate it yet the old crowd will be skeeved off from the changes.
It's very wierd on IV versus V, as the two are EXACTLY different on this. IV had perception down pat but was exclusionary as fuck whereas V has an extremely rocky perception yet the game has such pliant controls and low-ceilinged execution as to worry pros.
As for how to fix it, don't make promises, and back up perception with strong ideology. Don't go extreme. As for consumers, don't demand like a spoiled child, and reward those that do serve you to your needs reguardless. You'll be happier for it.
That said, I still have no idea why the input lag is THAT bad on purpose, another boggling decision.
Yeah, V has problems with having a low ceiling on some characters (BOXER!) but is nowhere near as bad as some Fighters about this like a big chunk of SF3's cast.
We have always been at war with Oceania.
And to tie into the above, treating this balancing like in Pokemon, MMOs, or as evidenced here is like feeding wild animals: they're going to expect a free hand out or deliver aggression.
Something being "2 CASUL" or "2 TEH H@RDCORE" is a really, really difficult mentality to shake as it not only is calling for a product to be something it's not, but is far too often a recipe for it to become something it isn't, and that has lead numberous times to a market that may not appreciate it yet the old crowd will be skeeved off from the changes.
It's very wierd on IV versus V, as the two are EXACTLY different on this. IV had perception down pat but was exclusionary as fuck whereas V has an extremely rocky perception yet the game has such pliant controls and low-ceilinged execution as to worry pros.
As for how to fix it, don't make promises, and back up perception with strong ideology. Don't go extreme. As for consumers, don't demand like a spoiled child, and reward those that do serve you to your needs reguardless. You'll be happier for it.
That said, I still have no idea why the input lag is THAT bad on purpose, another boggling decision.
Yeah, V has problems with having a low ceiling on some characters (BOXER!) but is nowhere near as bad as some Fighters about this like a big chunk of SF3's cast.
We have always been at war with Oceania.
And to tie into the above, treating this balancing like in Pokemon, MMOs, or as evidenced here is like feeding wild animals: they're going to expect a free hand out or deliver aggression.
lucebuce12
Member
Something something get gud.
There are plenty of players how there who play Karin on a pad are able to consistently land just frame tenko -> just frame orochi combos.
The only way to better your execution is practice.
But being able to do tricky combos is never going to make someone better at the game. It just allows them to get more out of the situations that they get to do damage.
I wouldn't get your hopes up, seeing as Capcom already reiterated that they're standing by SFV until 2020. Plus abandoning SFV now would end up killing the CPT. I'd even do an avatar bet that they'll continue past this season.
There's no plinking in SFV.
DoubleTake
Member
But arent these mostly complaints brought forward by people who arent playing at a pro level? These same people who clamored for these changes are the one's lamenting how bread and butter SFV is to watch because of these changes.
At the end of the day everyone wants their cake and to eat it. Capcom needs to find a balance between the systems, not the polar shift theyve made.
molnizzle
Member
I've put in something like 250 hours into SFV across both Steam and PS4, I understand the concept of practice.
I wanna see the receipts on reliable high level Karin players who play with a pad using a standard grip. Not putting the pad in their lap and tapping the buttons like an arcade stick. Right thumb on all button inputs. I shouldn't have to hold my controller like a crazy person just to be reliable.
Whatever you want to call Karin's just frame links then. Same shit.
Practice and you can. It's what I did with Karin.
Also plinking doesnt exist in SFV.
Just gotta practice dude.
Excellent video as always. That fading Gootecks :lol:
Sirlin is specifically talking about inputs and execution though, while Core-A video and Bornfree interviews are going way more in depth about mechanics, interactions and general game flow.