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[Caayn]

Not sure if this was posted, but it seems Tim has made his stance a bit more clear.

Hehe, that was basically my girlfriends reaction when (one year ago) I explained to her that we would need the same platform version of Minecraft if we wanted to play together when we weren't in the same room.

 

[Septic360]

Try to launch Paragon with crossplay on Switch or Xbox, Tim.

Lol this...

 

[ezodagrom]

Sony really need to just bend a bit on their cross platform policies at this point. They need to at least set some cross platform standards so that MS can't force Live login credentials on PSN or some BS like that. There's is no reason we shouldn't unify the online play for all platforms at this point.

For it to be possible for people from different platforms to play together in a party, crossplay games need their own account system.
In the case of Minecraft, the only reason it uses Live login credentials is because Minecraft belongs to Microsoft, so obviously they're gonna use their own account system accross the multiple platforms. Let's say a Battlefield game would have crossplay, in this case EA Origin accounts would be used instead.

 

[leeh]

Errr... people already are...?

PS4 is outselling XB1 2:1 so it follows logically that more people are buying PS4 to "play with their friends" than XB1, particularly in PS4-dominated regions like Europe.

So it's a very lopsided balance.

For the last time: You can't socialise with people from different platforms with this corss-play implementation. It's a completely moot point.

It's been said over and over and over again, but people keep ignoring it.

 

[ezodagrom]

For the last time: You can't socialise with people from different platforms with this corss-play implementation. It's a completely moot point.

It's been said over and over and over again, but people keep ignoring it.

Socializing with people from other platforms is something that would have to come from the games themselves, that is, games having their own friend systems to allow to invite people from other platforms, games with their own communication features (be it in-game text chat or voice chat), and so on.

 

[Shin]

This thread is going places, he congratulates psyonix/nintendo on cross-platform - everyone cheers.
He says that there might be more to the story than what the media is running with everyone is like - boo!! he's lying and bla bla bla.

 

[leeh]

Socializing with people from other platforms is something that would have to come from the games themselves, that is, games having their own friend systems to allow to invite people from other platforms, games with their own communication features (be it in-game text chat or voice chat), and so on.

Yeah ofc, understandably it isn't allowed on any of the platforms so it will never happen.

 

[Trup1aya]

This thread is going places, he congratulates psyonix/nintendo on cross-platform - everyone cheers.
He says that there might be more to the story than what the media is running with everyone is like - boo!! he's lying and bla bla bla.

Because everyone (including himself) knows there isn't more to the story...

 

[jesu]

Errr... people already are...?

PS4 is outselling XB1 2:1 so it follows logically that more people are buying PS4 to "play with their friends" than XB1, particularly in PS4-dominated regions like Europe.

So it's a very lopsided balance.

People are not already buying PS4s so they can play cross platform games with their friends on Switch or Xbox.
You might want to reread what I wrote and follow the quote trail a bit from there.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

For the last time: You can't socialise with people from different platforms with this corss-play implementation. It's a completely moot point.

It's been said over and over and over again, but people keep ignoring it.

Why are you copying and pasting your posts from previous threads?

Your logic is cripplingly flawed because:

(i) cross-play without chat or meaningful social interaction between people on different platforms is worthless... not even worth the trouble implementing it.
(ii) inter-platform chat and social features can be implemented by the game developer and accessed through a third party log-in system (aka Minecraft).

You're using Rocket Leagues single implementation of cross-play and extending that across all present and future cross-play games as if that is the only possible way of implementing it.

Honestly, I feel the argument for cross-play is all over the place at this point...

1P: "It lets me play with my friends on other platforms"
2P: "So Sony will be unwilling to agree because it will ruin the incentive of new players with friends on PS4 to buy a PS4."
1P: "No, because cross-play won't let you chat or socially interact with players on other platforms."
2P: "So how does it let me play with my friends?"

 

[ezodagrom]

Yeah ofc, understandably it isn't allowed on any of the platforms so it will never happen.

Huh, games such as Phantasy Star Online 2 and Final Fantasy XIV have no problems with having their own friends systems and text based chat across PC and PS4, and in the case of PSO2, it even includes Vita.

 

[CookTrain]

Not sure if this was posted, but it seems Tim has made his stance a bit more clear.

That's not really a fair comparison. Everyone has a phone number with their phone, they already have a system in place for cross-compatibility.

It's not like iOS and Android can play GAMES togeth... wait... never mind.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

That's not really a fair comparison. Everyone has a phone number with their phone, they already have a system in place for cross-compatibility.

It's not like iOS and Android can play GAMES togeth... wait... never mind.

Lol... it's even simpler than that.

Phones are communication devices by definition.

Consoles are not "cross-platform online play" devices by definition. They're gaming devices first and foremost.

It's a dumb analogy and a false equivalency.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I shouldn't be surprised anymore for the fact that there's a defense force for anything on GAF; after all. "anything" means, well, anything.

But I still am. This is as anti-consumer as it gets and completely indefensible from any point of view except Sony's bottom line (and even then, extremely arguable; expect Sony to back down once they realize the PR hit is not worth "screwing" their competitors over). If you defend Sony's decision for this, you are a corporate apologist on the level of Ben Kuchera defending Microsoft's second hand games debacle.

 

[CookTrain]

Lol... it's even simpler than that.

Phones are communication devices by definition.

Consoles are not "cross-platform online play" devices by definition. They're gaming devices first and foremost.

It's a dumb analogy and a false equivalency.

Maybe if it was 1995. Tech has moved beyond such limitations. Consoles need to catch up. A PC isn't a communication device "by definition", yet that's on board.

 

[KageMaru]

Why are you copying and pasting your posts from previous threads?

Your logic is cripplingly flawed because:

(i) cross-play without chat or meaningful social interaction between people on different platforms is worthless... not even worth the trouble implementing it.
(ii) inter-platform chat and social features can be implemented by the game developer and accessed through a third party log-in system (aka Minecraft).

You're using Rocket Leagues single implementation of cross-play and extending that across all present and future cross-play games as if that is the only possible way of implementing it.

Honestly, I feel the argument for cross-play is all over the place at this point...

1P: "It lets me play with my friends on other platforms"
2P: "So Sony will be unwilling to agree because it will ruin the incentive of new players with friends on PS4 to buy a PS4."
1P: "No, because cross-play won't let you chat or socially interact with players on other platforms."
2P: "So how does it let me play with my friends?"

Not everyone that supports the idea is flip flopping like that. Communication can always happen with the in-game chat. For people that don't want it, they can opt out of crossplay.

 

[leeh]

Why are you copying and pasting your posts from previous threads?

Your logic is cripplingly flawed because:

(i) cross-play without chat or meaningful social interaction between people on different platforms is worthless... not even worth the trouble implementing it.
(ii) inter-platform chat and social features can be implemented by the game developer and accessed through a third party log-in system (aka Minecraft).

You're using Rocket Leagues single implementation of cross-play and extending that across all present and future cross-play games as if that is the only possible way of implementing it.

Honestly, I feel the argument for cross-play is all over the place at this point...

1P: "It lets me play with my friends on other platforms"
2P: "So Sony will be unwilling to agree because it will ruin the incentive of new players with friends on PS4 to buy a PS4."
1P: "No, because cross-play won't let you chat or socially interact with players on other platforms."
2P: "So how does it let me play with my friends?"

Because people like you don't listen.

(i) It's not worthless, and that is the implementation. You've also had people tell you why it isn't worthless: player pools, matchmaking skill. Like or not, that's what it is.

(ii) Minecraft using a Microsoft account login (not XBL, XBL uses a MS login) is simply to keep your saves across the different platforms, not for anything social related.

It will be done like Rocket League in the majority of games. Someone quoted me below about some of the PC/PS4 titles having their own social platforms, but we can at least guarantee MS won't allow that.

 

[JP]

My god, has there ever been a series of threads on GAF that are as consistently poor as these threads? It just seems to be a repeating back and forth of absolutely nothing of note.

I've not really taken part in them but I think reading through this one has been enough to make me avoid all future threads on the subject.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Because people like you don't listen.

(i) It's not worthless, and that is the implementation. You've also had people tell you why it isn't worthless: player pools, matchmaking skill. Like or not, that's what it is.

(ii) Minecraft using a Microsoft account login (not XBL, XBL uses a MS login) is simply to keep your saves across the different platforms, not for anything social related.

It will be done like Rocket League in the majority of games. Someone quoted me below about some of the PC/PS4 titles having their own social platforms, but we can at least guarantee MS won't allow that.

In which case then I have no interest in cross-platform play. Without any ability to chat or socially interact, they might as well fill the servers with AI-controlled bots if all you're after is larger pools of players in game.

I've never struggled to get into a game online. And filling player pools with cross-platform players lacking basic social features will simply dilute the already limited social interaction on console online platforms, motivating people to use mics and communicate even less.

You might see things differently and be happy to sacrifice social features for having more players to play against, but I don't see that a good thing, neither something that "benefits all gamers".

Sorry, dude.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Not everyone that supports the idea is flip flopping like that. Communication can always happen with the in-game chat. For people that don't want it, they can opt out of crossplay.

From the sounds of it, there isn't even any in-game chat with any of the existing cross-play games and neither will there ever be (according to leeh).

 

[leeh]

In which case then I have no interest in cross-platform play. Without any ability to chat or socially interact, they might as well fill the servers with AI-controlled bots if all you're after is larger pools of players in game.

I've never struggled to get into a game online. And filling player pools with cross-platform players lacking basic social features will simply dilute the already limited social interaction on console online platforms, motivating people to use mics and communicate even less.

You might see things differently and be happy to sacrifice social features for having more players to play against, but I don't see that a good thing, neither something that "benefits all gamers".

Sorry, dude.

No need to be sorry, I think the implementation is shit as well. Although, it's all what is really technically feasible.

It has some worth, but yeah I'm with you.

 

[Trup1aya]

That's not really a fair comparison. Everyone has a phone number with their phone, they already have a system in place for cross-compatibility.

It's not like iOS and Android can play GAMES togeth... wait... never mind.

The better analogy would've been when you'd have pay extra to talk to people out of network.

I remember getting someone's number for the first time, you had to verify who their carrier was before you got too chatty, lol

 

[Trup1aya]

In which case then I have no interest in cross-platform play. Without any ability to chat or socially interact, they might as well fill the servers with AI-controlled bots if all you're after is larger pools of players in game.

I've never struggled to get into a game online. And filling player pools with cross-platform players lacking basic social features will simply dilute the already limited social interaction on console online platforms, motivating people to use mics and communicate even less.

You might see things differently and be happy to sacrifice social features for having more players to play against, but I don't see that a good thing, neither something that "benefits all gamers".

Sorry, dude.

Firstly, most people don't even use in-game social features.

But you are right, not having the ability to does dilute the experience. That said, no developer is going to put forth the effort to build crossplatform social features if the platform holders don't allow crossplay.

You have to crawl before you can walk. The attitude that the endevour isn't worthwhile because the infrastructure isn't there , is a roadblock for getting the infrastructure built.

 

[ezodagrom]

but we can at least guarantee MS won't allow that.

I wouldn't call speculation a "guarantee".

 

[leeh]

I wouldn't call speculation a "guarantee".

Yeah, but let's be honest with ourselves, they're not going to.

 

[Alienous]

But it doesn't really benefit Sony's business. Trading their market share 'I want to play with my friends' advantage to have a selling point that Microsoft would also have. It doesn't seem like it would increase Sony's sales relative to its competition.

Mandating no microtransactions benefits 'everyone' too except, y'know, the business owners who profit from them. So no, not really everyone.

 

[ezodagrom]

Yeah, but let's be honest with ourselves, they're not going to.

Rocket League on PC has an in-game text based chat system, players can use the d-pad to use customizable set phrases or even just chat regularly in the chatbox.
I don't have any of the consoles, so I have no idea if XBox One players can even see that chat and reply, but if they can, then MS does allow social features through crossplay. If so, all that's missing is an in-game friend system to allow players from different platforms to form parties (which would be something that would have to be implemented by the game developers themselves).

 

[ElfArmy177]

I'm sorry but even being a Sony fanboy this whole thing is completely fucked up and saying otherwise is 100% irrational. Fuck any developer that doesn't want cross play implementation, I hope this continues and eventually bites them in the ass. If anything I hope it does too Sony what the Xbox one reveal did to microsoft.

I seriously can't believe anyone defends Sony or any other platform not allowing cross play on the games the third party DEVELOPERS make. WTF is wrong with some of these people? Is Sony paying your mortgage or are some of them so far up one companies ass they can't figure out what's good for the community anymore?

 

[KageMaru]

Yeah, but let's be honest with ourselves, they're not going to.

There's no reason why in-game chat can't be supported. Nintendo is much more likely to block that than anyone else.

But it doesn't really benefit Sony's business. Trading their market share 'I want to play with my friends' advantage to have a selling point that Microsoft would also have. It doesn't seem like it would increase Sony's sales relative to its competition.

Mandating no microtransactions benefits 'everyone' too except, y'know, the business owners who profit from them. So no, not really everyone.

Unless Sony is paying you, why should you care? There are plenty of other reasons to own a PS4 that I think they'll be just fine supporting this. Continuing to block this could also hinder their business, so the corporate cheerleading isn't necessary.

Also if two of the three console providers mandated no microtransactions, there would definitely be a demand for the third to do the same. So your analogy doesn't really work here.

 

[blue_phazon]

In which case then I have no interest in cross-platform play. Without any ability to chat or socially interact, they might as well fill the servers with AI-controlled bots if all you're after is larger pools of players in game.

I've never struggled to get into a game online. And filling player pools with cross-platform players lacking basic social features will simply dilute the already limited social interaction on console online platforms, motivating people to use mics and communicate even less.

You might see things differently and be happy to sacrifice social features for having more players to play against, but I don't see that a good thing, neither something that "benefits all gamers".

Sorry, dude.

In games with crossplay, you have a toggle to turn it off and only matchmake with your own system.

Problem solved?

 

[Shifty1897]

It benefits everyone but Sony, and I totally understand why they want to segregate themselves from other platforms. Most of my friends who have an Xbox One tell me they didn't know Xbox wasn't going to be the dominant platform this generation, and some have gone ahead and bought a ps4 to play with their friends.

Is it anti-consumer? Sure.
Is it going to make Sony a lot of money? Yes, yes it is.

 

[Yearsoflurking]

It benefits everyone but Sony, and I totally understand why they want to segregate themselves from other platforms. Most of my friends who have an Xbox One tell me they didn't know Xbox wasn't going to be the dominant platform this generation, and some have gone ahead and bought a ps4 to play with their friends.

how doesn't this benefit sony? is having a bigger userbase for games a bad thing or something? I'm confused. the same scenario you listed above can and does happen with xbox consumers as well. furthermore why should we as consumers care

 

[Woo-Fu]

Because Sony.

They have a vocal fanbase that puts too much faith in corporate decisions.

So funny you should say that about Sony without realizing it is true of every platform holder. Can say the same thing for Microsoft and Nintendo.

 

[Herp Derpington]

So funny you should say that about Sony without realizing it is true of every platform holder. Can say the same thing for Microsoft and Nintendo.

What does that have to do with Sony being the one blocking it? It's like a kid getting in trouble and saying their sibling did it too. What difference does it make to the focus being on YOU?

 

[Shifty1897]

how doesn't this benefit sony? is having a bigger userbase for games a bad thing or something? I'm confused. the same scenario you listed above can and does happen with xbox consumers as well. furthermore why should we as consumers care

I feel like I explained this. Sony already has the biggest userbase, their plan is already working, people are selling their Xbox's to buy PS4's to play with their friends. That is where they are making money. That would stop if people with Xbox's could play with their PS4 friends, which is why they won't do cross play for as long as they are in first place.

I don't like it, but I understand it from a business standpoint.

 

[Pejorative]

Hehe, that was basically my girlfriends reaction when (one year ago) I explained to her that we would need the same platform version of Minecraft if we wanted to play together when we weren't in the same room.

But why should one Microsoft demand that everyone uses Xbox Live? That's absurd.

 

[Shock32]

My god, has there ever been a series of threads on GAF that are as consistently poor as these threads? It just seems to be a repeating back and forth of absolutely nothing of note.

I've not really taken part in them but I think reading through this one has been enough to make me avoid all future threads on the subject.

The Good news is the more and more these threads pop up the less and less attention they seem to be getting. Even Reddit doesn't haven't this many posts and the mainstream media don't seem to give a shit along with 99% it the gaming community.

 

[leeh]

Rocket League on PC has an in-game text based chat system, players can use the d-pad to use customizable set phrases or even just chat regularly in the chatbox.
I don't have any of the consoles, so I have no idea if XBox One players can even see that chat and reply, but if they can, then MS does allow social features through crossplay. If so, all that's missing is an in-game friend system to allow players from different platforms to form parties (which would be something that would have to be implemented by the game developers themselves).

There's no reason why in-game chat can't be supported. Nintendo is much more likely to block that than anyone else.



Unless Sony is paying you, why should you care? There are plenty of other reasons to own a PS4 that I think they'll be just fine supporting this. Continuing to block this could also hinder their business, so the corporate cheerleading isn't necessary.

Also if two of the three console providers mandated no microtransactions, there would definitely be a demand for the third to do the same. So your analogy doesn't really work here.

To be clear, I'm not just talking about game chat or text chat, which you can do in RL. More so the ability to actually link up with players and make friends so to speak. Inviting to your parties for matchmaking etc.

Like, I can't invite someone from PC to play Rocket League with me.

This is my whole reasoning behind why the Sony player pool argument is moot.

 

[Trup1aya]

But it doesn't really benefit Sony's business. Trading their market share 'I want to play with my friends' advantage to have a selling point that Microsoft would also have. It doesn't seem like it would increase Sony's sales relative to its competition.

Mandating no microtransactions benefits 'everyone' too except, y'know, the business owners who profit from them. So no, not really everyone.

They ARENT trading their markshare. This argument is vastly overstated. They are creating a better environment for developers, and extending the lives of games their customers play. They'd also ensure that people don't have to avoid Sony to get the features they want- islands trap people in AND keep people out.

The "I buy what my friends have effect' doesn't go away with crossplay - as Sony DOES have games and content that are exclusive to their platform. Not only that, but the PS4 value proposition still resonates.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

In games with crossplay, you have a toggle to turn it off and only matchmake with your own system.

Problem solved?

So your solution to the question of the value of cross-play is to not use cross-play...?

 

[Cipherr]

I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone is opposed to cross play. What are some of the most compelling arguments against it?

No one is really actually against it as a consumer except in cases of KB&M vs controller balance. But that's clearly not what we are talking about here. Amongst solely consoles, no consumer will mind crossplay.

But right now Sony is shitting the bed by not allowing it; and you know how fanboyism is. Some folks absolutely HAVE to defend them, no matter how terrible their decision.

Eventually Sony will do the right thing and flip on this decision. Pay close attention to the people excusing them for it now; they won't be the least bit upset. Trust me.

 

[ezodagrom]

To be clear, I'm not just talking about game chat or text chat, which you can do in RL. More so the ability to actually link up with players and make friends so to speak. Inviting to your parties for matchmaking etc.

Like, I can't invite someone from PC to play Rocket League with me.

This is my whole reasoning behind why the Sony player pool argument is moot.

Rocket League uses the platforms friends system for party play, partying with players from other platforms would need an in-game friend system, which is something that Rocket League devs would have to implement, I guess.

If MS isn't stopping in-game communication (in-game text chat), then I don't see why they would be stopping an in-game friend system.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Rocket League on PC has an in-game text based chat system, players can use the d-pad to use customizable set phrases or even just chat regularly in the chatbox.
I don't have any of the consoles, so I have no idea if XBox One players can even see that chat and reply, but if they can, then MS does allow social features through crossplay. If so, all that's missing is an in-game friend system to allow players from different platforms to form parties (which would be something that would have to be implemented by the game developers themselves).

Surely it's easy to see why in-game textchat isn't a good solution?

Imagine:
- I'm playing RL on my PS4 with my mate on PC. I want to coordinate with him for me to defend the left side and him to watch the right.
- goes into text chat and starts typing
- in the meantime my car is idle while the game is ongoing
- opponent scores
- "doh!"
- attempt to type "sorry" into the chat because I know my mate is pissed I conceded a goal
- opponent scores again
- "Doh! x2"

This is why I say, meaningful social interaction features. Like voice chat, party chat, friends lists, player invites etc..

 

[ezodagrom]

Surely it's easy to see why in-game textchat isn't a good solution?

Imagine:
- I'm playing RL on my PS4 with my mate on PC. I want to coordinate with him for me to defend the left side and him to watch the right.
- goes into text chat and starts typing
- in the meantime my car is idle while the game is ongoing
- opponent scores
- "doh!"
- attempt to type "sorry" into the chat because I know my mate is pissed I conceded a goal
- opponent scores again
- "Doh! x2"

This is why I say, meaningful social interaction features. Like voice chat, party chat, friends lists, player invites etc..

Rocket League has 16 customizable phrases shortcuts, saying simple things such as "Sorry", "Defending" and so on are just 2 d-pad clicks away.

Personally I never ever use voice chat, I can't stand voice chat, and when playing games that have voice chat, I mute other people when possible.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

For smaller more niche games a larger player pool could be a god send and keep a game from dying on its arse.


Fuck them though, fuck those small indie developers and their small games with low player counts!

Is that the gist of it?

 

[Trup1aya]

Surely it's easy to see why in-game textchat isn't a good solution?

Imagine:
- I'm playing RL on my PS4 with my mate on PC. I want to coordinate with him for me to defend the left side and him to watch the right.
- goes into text chat and starts typing
- in the meantime my car is idle while the game is ongoing
- opponent scores
- "doh!"
- attempt to type "sorry" into the chat because I know my mate is pissed I conceded a goal
- opponent scores again
- "Doh! x2"

This is why I say, meaningful social interaction features. Like voice chat, party chat, friends lists, player invites etc..

If you want better social interaction in crossplay, then you have to push for all platform holders to support crossplay.

No developer is going to bother jumping through the hoops to make this work, when they have no guarantee platform holders will support their effort.

Its as simple as that.

It's strange that you use current limitations as an excuse for not doing it at all... when going all-in on crossplay would allow these limitations to be removed.

 

[Hendrick's]

Sony just needs to come out and tell the truth, whatever it is. Something along the lines of:

"Microsoft is our direct competitor and as they will require our customers to create/log into a Microsoft account in order to cross-play, we will not be allowing this. This may seem unfair, but as a business we cannot help promote our competitors ecosystems"

 

[Weltall Zero]

In which case then I have no interest in cross-platform play. Without any ability to chat or socially interact, they might as well fill the servers with AI-controlled bots if all you're after is larger pools of players in game.

In a thread filled with demented logic and ignorance, this may take the cake. If you really think playing against humans is the same as playing against an AI, you don't have any business being part of any conversation involving multiplayer.

 

[CookTrain]

Sony just needs to come out and tell the truth, whatever it is. Something along the lines of:

"Microsoft is our direct competitor, and as they will require our customers to create/log into a Microsoft account in order to cross-play, we will not be allowing this. This may seem unfair, but as a business we cannot help promote our competitors ecosystems"

They'd need a truthier truth than that, because even that isn't accurate. That only inhibits Minecraft at the moment.

It was hilarious watching the switch up once that second tweet came out.

For someone who finds these threads "exhausting", your endurance is commendable

 

[Uno Venova]

This topic is amazing, the way it goes from "Yup, dudes correct", to "Oh, he's not calling out Sony explicitly? Fuck that guy, he just hates MS"

It was hilarious watching the switch up once that second tweet came out.