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[Veelk]

You don't think such a character would change after hundreds of years of exile/wandering/etc., no longer in the service of the gods or trying to kill them, no vengeance to achieve, no wars to fight, no family to avenge or save

No. People like Kratos really don't have these kinds of epiphanies. Kratos is far beyond some troubled guy with anger issues, he's a genuine psychotic and all the games have fed into this characterization of him.

In real life, serial killers (and that's basically what he is) generally don't stop unless they've been caught, because they like killing. And that's literally everything Kratos has built his life around. People like him don't grow empathy, because empathy is poison to people like him.

But okay, this is fiction. We can hypothetically have a character that your describing, a serial killer who grows a heart. But if Kratos is going to have this redemption arc, he needs to actually own up to his mistakes. And I don't see that. They're talking about how Kratos thinks being a god is a bad thing, like a disease, because that's waht he thinks is the cause of his misery. No, asshole, it's not being a god. It's you. Your choices, made for your selfish reasons.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the thing your describing is such an incredible departure from the character we knew that I don't think there is a believable way for Kratos to actually get to that point. To actually not make him utter human filth, he would have to change in ways that are basically unrecorded in human behavior.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Ironically, it's still in keeping with Kratos' character. Kratos only cares about people insofar as he can relate them to other people in his life and this has been true as far back as the first game where he is happy to murder scared, innocent women and children, so long as they don't happen to be his women and children.

Kratos feels nothing murdering the sex slave because he never personally cared for a sex slave. He had a daughter though so Pandora is someone he can kinda, sorta imagine as her (Which doesn't stop him from throwing her to the fire when Zeus calls him a chicken over it, but still.)

My point is that people act like Kratos became more awful in the later games as opposed to the first one, but stuff like that is perfectly in character.



I don't know, I don't see much of a distinction. Kratos tends to brute force his way through puzzles one way or another. He could have found another way or a way to just break the door or something if he wanted to. But why would he when the convienent way is just to murder some random passerby to make the thing he needs happen? You're argument is that Kratos was only cruel out of necessity for his journey, and while that may have been true in gameplay terms, we know his character isn't like that. He's cruel because he doesn't see a compelling reason not to do these things.

I don't think he became (that much) more of a piece of shit. I think the games made the players do increasingly shitty things as him, with that needless butchering of the Poseidon princess being among the worst. And, yeah, we grew up between the games releases.

 

[Asriel]

Would have a preferred a new character, tbh.

 

[RustyNails]

Kratos was fully redeemed by the end of God of War 1 though. The gods fucked him regardless.

 

[More_Badass]

No.

People like Kratos really don't have these kinds of epiphanies. Kratos is far beyond some troubled guy with anger issues, he's a genuine psychotic and all the games have fed into this characterization of him.

In real life, serial killers (and that's basically what he is) generally don't stop unless they've been caught, because they like killing. And that's literally everything Kratos has built his life around.

But okay, this is fiction. We can hypothetically have a character that your describing. But if Kratos is going to have this redemption arc, he needs to actually own up to his mistakes. And I don't see that. They're talking about how Kratos thinks being a god is a bad thing, like a disease, because that's waht he thinks is the cause of his misery.

No, asshole, it's not being a god. It's you. Your choices, made for your selfish reasons. And more than that, it seems like it's still self centered. He's trying to change because he's miserable. Somehow, I doubt that he gives much thought to the countless that lay dead at his feet.

To be fair, a character trying to redeem himself for a misguided reason could be pretty fascinating if done right. Like I doubt Kratos is actually going to redeem himself; if anything, his actions are going to twist and corrupt his son. We already see that in the trailers, in him teaching the boy how to kill the stag and teaching him not to show mercy for his enemies and that he has to be a warrior. That boy's innocence isn't going to last

 

[Omnistalgic]

Wow you guys are all amazing writers and creators, would love to read your work sometime, should be incredible seeing as how critical everyone is. Lol half J/K

God of War 1 story was actually praised, and it was pegged as Sony's 'Zelda' by IGN. It had a pretty good story, and really so did GOW2. 3 just focused on the rage too much and it felt overdone and forced. But this whole irredeemable stuff? Meh, I disagree completely. A good written GOW will make him interesting again in my book.

IMO I think it's completely justifiable for a human to go crazy when everything is taking everyone from him and giving unlimited power. Kratos is basically crazy. I dunno, 3 was stupid, but it was pretty believable first 2 games. Him trying to kill himself and then living in isolation for a few centuries as an immortal... dunno, that's kinda an interesting character to me.

 

[HonMirin]

Doesn't Kratos have a moment of clarity in the penultimate part of God of War 3?

Spoiler

The part where he's swimming about in the darkness and following the light?

 

[nailbombxx]

Why not just make a new character if you're entirely changing the setting, style (mythologies, even) and the tone of the game

 

[Omnistalgic]

Why not just make a new character if you're entirely changing the setting, style (mythologies, even) and the tone of the game

Because GAF is never a good reflection of what the majority of fans like.

Did you not here the loud round of applause and hype when Kratos was reintroduced? People do actually like this character. GAF is super critical, but it's not the norm. This is the only place I've ever read people go so into detail how much of a douche he is. My gaming circle just found him annoying and finishing 3 was a chore.

 

[Fisty]

While I applaud the shift in tone, I loved asshole Kratos. There weren't any other characters like him, and certainly aren't any now. He was definitely a one-of-a-kind irredeemable asshole, and I can respect that. The man's been through some shit.

Doesn't Kratos have a moment of clarity in the penultimate part of God of War 3?

Spoiler

The part where he's swimming about in the darkness and following the light?

Ugh that was the absolute worst part of the entire 6 game series. What were they thinking?

 

[More_Badass]

Why not just make a new character if you're entirely changing the setting, style (mythologies, even) and the tone of the game

People really like the character

And building upon the character's history and what we know of him (think Logan) is way more interesting and ambitious than just doing a blank slate

And going to other mythologies was always part of the plan. Jaffe had once said how he wanted to explore Norse and Egyptian mythologies in the series

 

[Two Words]

Why not just make a new character if you're entirely changing the setting, style (mythologies, even) and the tone of the game

What if the game they wanted to make had a character that had Kratos' history?

 

[Asriel]

People really like the character

And building upon the character's history and what we know of him (think Logan) is way more interesting and ambitious than just doing a blank slate

And going to other mythologies was always part of the plan. Jaffe had once said how he wanted to explore Norse and Egyptian mythologies in the series

Totally disagree.

 

[nailbombxx]

Because GAF is never a good reflection of what the majority of fans like.

Did you not here the loud round of applause and hype when Kratos was reintroduced? People do actually like this character. GAF is super critical, but it's not the norm. This is the only place I've ever read people go so into detail how much of a douche he is. My gaming circle just found him annoying and finishing 3 was a chore.

Couldn't care less what GAF thinks honestly. I just would have preferred a new protagonist since they've done all they could with the Greek mythology, instead of having Kratos show up suddenly into Norse mythology world and is all of a sudden sort of different but still Kratos. There is an interesting story to be told with that I guess, but I would have been a lot more fascinated with a new character who would fit the setting much more.

 

[Veelk]

To be fair, a character trying to redeem himself for a misguided reason could be pretty fascinating if done right. Like I doubt Kratos is actually going to redeem himself; if anything, his actions are going to twist and corrupt his son. We already see that in the trailers, in him teaching the boy how to kill the stag and teaching him not to show mercy for his enemies and that he has to be a warrior. That boy's innocence isn't going to last

I guess I would just find the premise far more credible if this was a new character. I know who Kratos is and I find it unlikely he'd ever bother with wanting to redeem himself in the first place to be unlikely. If this was someone new, made in the same archtype of Kratos but not the same guy, I'd have an easier time swallowing that he is a character who might want these things.

In the Plinkett review of Star Wars The Clone Wars, Plinkett noted that by growing up, Anakin is a fundamentally different character from the kid in The Phantom Menace, so they might as well have started the film there, because this kind of change is so raddical that he is a different character.

In a roundabout way, that's sort of how I feel about this. Kratos is now so different, he might as well be a new character. Because he functionally is, and the canonical ties to the past games hinder the depiction rather than enriching it. But of course, we still only have press information from the game. It might be different once it comes out, but I'm just not seeing it.

 

[More_Badass]

Totally disagree.

Why? How would having a new character add to or enhance the concept versus using Kratos?

 

[More_Badass]

I guess I would just find the premise far more credible if this was a new character. I know who Kratos is and I find it unlikely he'd ever bother with wanting to redeem himself in the first place to be unlikely.

God of War 1 is literally about Kratos trying to redeem himself

So are the PSP games, choosing between his family and humanity, and in trying to help his brother

 

[sonicmj1]

I don't know, I don't see much of a distinction. Kratos tends to brute force his way through puzzles one way or another. He could have found another way or a way to just break the door or something if he wanted to. But why would he when the convienent way is just to murder some random passerby to make the thing he needs happen? You're argument is that Kratos was only cruel out of necessity for his journey, and while that may have been true in gameplay terms, we know his character isn't like that. He's cruel because he doesn't see a compelling reason not to do these things.

I'm not saying it's out of character (though this example, as I said, felt relatively inconvenient), but basically...

I don't think he became (that much) more of a piece of shit. I think the games made the players do increasingly shitty things as him, with that needless butchering of the Poseidon princess being among the worst. And, yeah, we grew up between the games releases.

they carried that character to a point that playing as him was no longer cathartic, but just icky.

Doesn't Kratos have a moment of clarity in the penultimate part of God of War 3?

Spoiler

The part where he's swimming about in the darkness and following the light?

Yes, this entire eye-rolling sequence, where Kratos finally forgives himself for murdering his wife and child, and finds hope. Because "hope is what makes us strong. It is why we are here. It is what we fight with when all else is lost."

Gag me.

 

[Moon Presence]

They didn't pick a new mc because Kratos is the face of the franchise, for better or worse. It would be like Halo without Master Chief, look how well that went.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Couldn't care less what GAF thinks honestly. I just would have preferred a new protagonist since they've done all they could with the Greek mythology, instead of having Kratos show up suddenly into Norse mythology world and is all of a sudden sort of different but still Kratos. There is an interesting story to be told with that I guess, but I would have been a lot more fascinated with a new character who would fit the setting much more.

Fair enough...maybe his son takes over on some MGS2 Switch!

 

[Asriel]

Why? How would having a new character add to or enhance the concept versus using Kratos?

Using Kratos in ANOTHER redemption arc in a GOW sequel is not as amibitous nor interesting as creating an entirely new storyline with new characters, IMO.

Sony and Santa Monica know Kratos is a big name and his games sell. It would have been much more ambitious to start from scratch and go a new direction. Hell, maybe a charier that's actually Norse?

 

[Kinyou]

Well

1) A redemption quest doesn't necessarily have to end in redemption. Given Kratos' nature, I kind of expect it not to work, for him at least. His son might be saved, but he won't

2) Kratos can still be a raging violent asshole and also be more than a yelling raging violent asshole. Kratos in the old games was incredibly one note; you can craft a rounded character while still retaining what made him so unlikeable. Especially when you use that as contrast and juxtaposition

3) From what we've seen, the game and character is literally using his son, aka "Boy!", as a weapon and is teaching a child to be a merciless killer. This isn't some nice happy "grumpy dad connects with son" narrative

Yeah, this is what makes this really interesting to me. I have no doubt that we'll see Kratos struggle a lot with his old self breaking through.

 

[HeartlessNobody213]

Some of the replies in this thread are interesting.

I mean, Kratos can still be violent and an asshole but also grow as a character.

I'm surprised there are a lot of people on gaf so unsure about the game.

You got the guy who's been there from the beginning in charge of the game and from all the recent interviews he seems to be really invested and going all in with the story, character of Kratos and the new gameplay.

Yeah the camera angle might be different but the combat still looks great and I'm sure there will be more weapons besides the axe.

People complain about the kid but as of now nothing about him seems annoying and it looks like he will add something to the combat.

This will definitely be a day one for me based on everything I've seen so far.

I've played all the previous GOW games except ascension and really enjoyed them, but I'm ok seeing the series go in a different direction.

 

[Veelk]

God of War 1 is literally about Kratos trying to redeem himself

So are the PSP games, choosing between his family and humanity, and in trying to help his brother

No, it's about him wanting to rid himself of the visions haunting him. Listen to the dialogue, he treats his guilt as a wound or disease that he wants to recover from and that's what he asks from the gods. Most of it is centered around him just wanting to get a good nights sleep again, "stop the nightmares".

Consider this: he has what amounts to a blank check from the gods. He can ask anything he wants from them. He can ask them to bring them back to life itself. Or he can ask them to ensure that his family is safe and happy in the after life. At the very least, he can ask to see them again, to talk to them, be reunited. It doesn't even occur to him to do this. He's only thinking of how to cure his ailment.

The PSP games are ones I haven't played in years, I actually don't remember what happened there other than thinking they did a better job of humanizing him than the mainstream games. But GoW is severely misinterpreted in regards to Kratos' humanity.

 

[Omnistalgic]

In a roundabout way, that's sort of how I feel about this. Kratos is now so different, he might as well be a new character. Because he functionally is, and the canonical ties to the past games hinder the depiction rather than enriching it. But of course, we still only have press information from the game. It might be different once it comes out, but I'm just not seeing it.

people are different and change a lot in there childhood, teens, 30's 50's etc...

This dude is immortal, and apparently has already lived a normal human lifetime by himself journeying. Doesn't seem that far fetched to me he's a different Kratos.

 

[More_Badass]

Using Kratos in ANOTHER redemption arc in a GOW sequel is not as amibitous nor interesting as creating an entirely new storyline with new characters, IMO.

Sony and Santa Monica know Kratos is a big name and his games sell. It would have been much more ambitious to start from scratch and go a new direction. Hell, maybe a charier that's actually Norse?

"Zeus! ZEUS!! Fuck the world for my revenge! Oh, but hope..." isn't what I would call a redemption arc. More of an attempted one that was really flawed and completely failed in its execution

Actually trying to do a compelling narrative while using the past we know as a cornerstone and juxtaposition, while remaining true to that character we know and remember, is much more ambitious than just making a new character.

 

[Asriel]

"Zeus! ZEUS!! Fuck the world for my revenge! Oh, but hope..." isn't what I would call a redemption arc. More of an attempted one that was really flawed and completely failed in its execution

Actually trying to do a compelling narrative while using the past we know as a cornerstone and juxtaposition, while remaining true to that character we know and remember, is much more ambitious than just making a new character.

Agree to disagree. Kratos is a pretty terrible character, an I'm just not interested in seeing him in a narrative-focused game at this point.

 

[Mathieran]

I'm glad they're working on making him a better character. If we were getting more of what we got in GoW3 I would have never bought this game. I love a good antihero but he was just cruel and sadistic for no reason. I hated GoW3.

 

[Hero]

Yes he actually did that...

Well, in God of War 1 Kratos sacrifices a defenseless human soldier by burning him to death in order to solve a puzzle. And within the first hour after killing the Hydra there is a cutscene in which he casts another human directly back into the Hydras throat, leaving him to rot at best.

Kratos always was an asshole (and that's fine). The violence just got more realistic in GoW3 with its much better tech.

Many folks have remarked on the Poseidon Princess scene in God of War 3 (2010), but I'm not sure if anyone at Sony Santa Monica has ever addressed that scene, specifically.

The articles that I'm finding which actually contain a kind of comment/acknowledgement from SSM are the articles which pertain specifically to a trophy that occurred in a subsequent game, Ascension (2013):

The Poseidon Princess sequence is like the only time in any game I can remember where I was actually angry with a developer for making me do something shitty and acting like it wasn't a big deal. Bullying a tortured and desperate sex slave is far more callous and "real" than Kratos's typical indifference to NPCs, which is often over-the-top and comical. It makes Kratos's sympathy for Pandora straight-up laughable considering what he just did.

It still makes me angry to this day. It actually makes the game less fun because I know that stupid section is in there.

Holy shit. I watched that sequence and am pretty offended/upset about that. Did that sex slave wrong Kratos in any way to deserve that because it didn't seem like it. He couldn't have used one of the dozens of monsters he just brutally slaughtered to jam the crank? I'm surprised there wasn't much internet outrage at this sequence (or if there was, I don't recall it). Nobody called out the developers on this shit? Did Anita even bring it up in any of her videos?

 

[Kayhan]

Kratos was always a piece of shit.

 

[Ouroboros]

I never played the original games BECAUSE Kratos was an asshole. I was not compelled to "be" him so I was turned off from the games.

This new one sheds a new light on Kratos as a character and I'm very interested in it this time around.

 

[Veelk]

"Zeus! ZEUS!! Fuck the world for my revenge! Oh, but hope..." isn't what I would call a redemption arc. More of an attempted one that was really flawed and completely failed in its execution

Exactly, which is why it's preferable to just cut that baggage and start clean. Start fresh, with someone who isn't such an irredeemaable fuckwad that you basically have to change his entire character to make him work. It's like saying you're going to take Schumacker's batman and fix him by making him serious, while still maintaining that he is still the same person as the one in the schumaker film. It's damaged goods and not worth it.

Actually trying to do a compelling narrative while using the past we know as a cornerstone and juxtaposition, while remaining true to that character we know and remember, is much more ambitious than just making a new character.

I guess the source of the disagreement is that I don't consider what we've seen of the new GoW to be true to the originals. Yeah, he's still violent and angry, but what made his anger unique (and horrible) is that it was unhinged and uncontrolled and irrational and selfish and stupid as fuck.

To sit down and tell me this quiet, remorseful, philosophical warrior is Kratos is an abandonment of his core character.

 

[Betty]

Kratos was always a piece of shit.

I blame his dad.

 

[Shaanyboi]

"Kratos is an asshole" stopped being a compelling excuse for the character after the first game. He became a shitty cliche of himself, and thus was wholly uninteresting.

Your character can be an asshole, but unless you are actually doing something with that, you're clearly uninterested in challenging what they represent, and even risk celebrating him. Which considering how fucking horrible Kratos is, that's a pretty repugnant thing to do.

The new game looks like it actually wants to do something with him, which makes it the first GoW since the first game worth actually talking about.

 

[More_Badass]

To sit down and tell me this quiet, remorseful, philosophical warrior is Kratos is an abandonment of his core character.

Pretty sure that's not what they're doing

 

[Veelk]

I blame his dad.

His dad was actually a pretty chill dude for the most part. He only turned evil when some asshole opened Pandora's box and released fear. Kratos should go after the guy who did that instead.

Pretty sure that's not what they're doing

It's what we've been given to hint at. He's no longer yelling every word. He's thinks godhood is a disease and is trying to balance living well and still surviving. He looks at the greek pottery with thought about his past life. He has a conversation with his son about 'truth'.

Again, maybe we need to wait for the full game, but this is what we've been shown.

 

[Chakan]

I really liked the Kratos from the previous games. A lot. Amazing character.

But, well, if they wanna change him...let's hope he becomes a better character with that. Still not convinced that this will be the case however. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[Chakan]

Kratos being an arsehole was why I like him

Agree.

 

[More_Badass]

It's what we've been given to hint at. He's no longer yelling every word. He's thinks godhood is a disease and is trying to balance living well and still surviving. He looks at the greek pottery with thought about his past life. He has a conversation with his son about 'truth'.

Again, maybe we need to wait for the full game, but this is what we've been shown.

He's basically teaching his son to be a merciless child soldier, can barely contain his rage over the smallest slights, and is as violent and brutal as ever according to the trailers

- He didn't yell every word in 1, 2, 3, and the PSP games, especially when family was involved
- We don't know what he's thinking when he's looking at that vase, nor do we know the angle they'll take with that
- And "the truth", not truth, likely either Kratos' monstrous past or about the son being destined to kill his father

 

[Sohaim]

His dad was actually a pretty chill dude for the most part. He only turned evil when some asshole opened Pandora's box and released fear. Kratos should go after the guy who did that instead.

wait what? pretty sure his dad is the big villain in this,

Spoiler

he went as far as to wage war against all titans for the sins of one, sent his brother to hell based on a prophecy and not to mention what he did to Kratos' mom,he could also have stoped Ares and did nothing but watch

, how was he a " chill " dude?

 

[Kazuhira]

Who's not an asshole in the GOW universe?
Besides,he really cared for Pandora and Athena(until she betrayed him).

 

[nailbombxx]

"Zeus! ZEUS!! Fuck the world for my revenge! Oh, but hope..." isn't what I would call a redemption arc. More of an attempted one that was really flawed and completely failed in its execution

Actually trying to do a compelling narrative while using the past we know as a cornerstone and juxtaposition, while remaining true to that character we know and remember, is much more ambitious than just making a new character.

From what I've seen I'm going to assume that in between Kratos being his typical self, its going to be a lot of melodrama about Kratos being bummed that hes been such a tool for 7 games and still is. Im going to assume that its going to be Kratos learning how to feel other emotions besides anger through father-son bonding by killing monsters, possibly by saving him or being saved by him. It writes itself. I hope I'm wrong and they do something more interesting narratively than that... but it is still God of War so...

I'm going to say developing an entirely new character would be far more ambitious than telling the story of mid-life crisis Kratos.

 

[Lionel Richie]

You don't think such a character would change after hundreds of years of exile/wandering/etc., no longer in the service of the gods or trying to kill them, no vengeance to achieve, no wars to fight, no family to avenge or save

And we've seen Kratos care about and try to save others, mainly his mother, brother, and daughter

I don't think he should, I don't like when sequels substantially change the personality of a character when previous works didn't really hint at that direction. If anything, the stuff Kratos went through should make him more traumatized and less attached to humanity.

It doesn't feel natural I guess. To me God of War is about Kratos being an asshole, imagine if Two and Half Men suddenly wasn't about Charlie Sheen being a womanizer drunken shithead uncle, but instead it was about a dude being insecure around woman and generally being a goofy nerd played by Ashton Kutcher. Nobody would watch that shit.

 

[Turin]

I'm predicting the game ends on a time jump where you assume control of his son and kill Kratos. Or they could base the sequel around that premise because money.

I have no basis for that prediction other than I think Kratos is going to fall back into old habits.

 

[Velikost]

There was no need to redeem Kratos, he was already legit. Still not sold on Dados; outside of the visuals, nothing they've shown so far looks like it'll live up to previous games, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[More_Badass]

I don't think he should, I don't like when sequels substantially change the personality of a character when previous works didn't really hint at that direction. If anything, the stuff Kratos went through should make him more traumatized and less attached to humanity.

How can they hint at that direction when we only saw the character under the relatively same circumstances in a relatively short period of time?

I think that's like knowing someone for a week at one point and then meeting them 20, 30 years later and being amazing that the person has changed or has a different personality

From what we know about the story, nothing about this shift is sudden.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Many folks have remarked on the Poseidon Princess scene in God of War 3 (2010), but I'm not sure if anyone at Sony Santa Monica has ever addressed that scene, specifically.

The articles that I'm finding which actually contain a kind of comment/acknowledgement from SSM are the articles which pertain specifically to a trophy that occurred in a subsequent game, Ascension (2013):

Oh god reading about it makes me feel even more fucking grossed out despite not playing or seeing it. I'm honestly upset that nobody from SSM have the balls to address this, and nobody wants to confront them about it, excusing it as just "being an asshole".

We made a big fuss about Hatred but not this?

 

[Lionel Richie]

How can they hint at that direction when we only saw the character under the relatively same circumstances in a relatively short period of time?

I think that's like knowing someone for a week at one point and then meeting them 20, 30 years later and being amazing that the person has changed or has a different personality

From what we know about the story, nothing about this shift is sudden.

I guess I'm a bit conservative when it comes to characters personalities lol so that's probably why I feel a certain unease here. Conceptually, the whole thing feels so removed from the series and while your points are valid and it's a perfectly reasonable way to look at it, I still think it feels off. I don't see a path for redemption for him not because it isn't possible, but because I never wanted the series to go that path. Not every character needs to be morally graded and part of the appeal of the series was how being good or bad never played a part in the story. Changing that isn't Donte levels of idiocy, but it still feels like it misses the whole point of the character. You played as a violent wrecking ball, you're now a conflicted father figure who may have done some bad shit but is over that now.

Like I said, Kratos could change. But I'm not sure he should. And there's a whole angle of "added deepness" with those changes that is IMO so misguided.

 

[Oersted]

Having seen a bit from the game, Kratos does still seem to be... crap. So I wonder if they can pull it off.

Iron man and James Bond are most certainly not antiheroes, but I understand and agree with the general sentiment of your post.

They most certainly are, but thanks.

 

[Fata1moose]

I liked that Kratos was completely selfish and had no regard for anyone else. He just wanted revenge and never came down from his anger.