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Doctor Who Series 10 |OT| He's Back, and It's About Time
- Thread starter tomtom94
- Start date
@ShenmueGuru
Member
Isn't that what I am saying lol. Baby Pertwee playing daddy Pertwee. There's no way people would look at Sean and think, "is that not the 3rd doctor?"
=P
Anyone ever asked Moffat about this?
To me, it seemedwell, besides a way to get Tom Baker in the 50tha way to set a precedent and in-universe excuse to have previous Doctors come back in future specials even if the actors are significantly older.
It was Moffat doing his usual of coming up with a quick explanation that holds up to no scrutiny because what are consequences amirite
The Elite
BOSS
Isn't that what I am saying lol. Baby Pertwee playing daddy Pertwee. There's no way people would look at Sean and think, "is that not the 3rd doctor?"
=P
I would be completely fine with Sean doing a multi-Doctor episode if they had a good story for it. I am not that hung up on recasting if you can find the right actor.
Meh, I like it. I don't wanna see a 62 year old David Tennant showing up in the 70th anniversary and we all just pretend he's still on vacation after the Waters of Mars...
I'm more curious if Moffat actually discussed it, though
Tizoc
Member
Anyone else feel that the original series' stories drag what with many being 4 part 20 min. episodes?
Man just make it an Earth based episode where Visuvian renegades are trying to destroy all martial art practices in the galaxy and are starting with Earth.
Gives erd a chance to bust some Visuvian Aikido just for old time's sake.
Well yeah I'd def. watch that. Multi Doctor episodes are always fun.
Man just make it an Earth based episode where Visuvian renegades are trying to destroy all martial art practices in the galaxy and are starting with Earth.
Gives erd a chance to bust some Visuvian Aikido just for old time's sake.
Well yeah I'd def. watch that. Multi Doctor episodes are always fun.
They can just pull the Time Crash explanation again, where the Doctors meeting creates a paradox that causes one to age up quickly...for some reason...
"You were my Doctor! And your daughter is my wife!"
The Elite
BOSS
EvilRedEye
Member
Whaaaat? That's if you're lucky!
acheron_xl
Member
The 4-parters are like a fast-paced breath of fresh air compared to some of the 6 or 7 parters.
mightynine
Member
The serial format made it very tough for me to watch any of the "classic" series - the pacing is just too slow if you're not used to it, in my opinion.
See also for this phenomenon: The War Doctor.
CloudyTuba
Member
First part, yes. Second part about setting a precedent, I don't know about that. I think it's as simple as Moffat wanting an excuse to have Tom Baker be the Doctor in the 50th anniversary even though he's aged out of the part. I don't think the grand moff was really thinking any farther ahead than that.
For the sake of getting Baker in the 50th as the Doctor, I'm cool with it. I liked it. I wouldn't want to see the same excuse used again, though. One-off is fine. Tom is the only far-future Doctor I want to see, no need to start crowding the future full of one-scene repeat Doctors.
Please explain what horrible damaging consequences Tom Baker's brief appearance had on the show going forward.
Who knows
JonathanEx
Member
Plus it's not like this is a show that will rewrite whichever rules make for a good story of the day. It's a loose continuity.
@ShenmueGuru
Member
Jesus, there's nothing critical about Tom Baker. It was a mammoth surprise and ending to the anniversary episode. I loved it! That speech was just delightful.
It's more the fact that inconsistencies are created, when there are talented writers for a TV show that deals with sci-fi and time travel and can't cover up cracks. I mean write almost anything and make it sound believable. Heck, if there were 13 TARDIS's that showed up to save Gallifrey BUT there are going to be further Doctors outside of the planned 12 regenerations there were supposed to be, then make up a 5 minute scene. Off the top of my head, have a meeting of all the Gallifrey council talking about the new regeneration cycle, and make a point of saying.... I dunno.... The generations of one cycle can never cross paths with the other generation. Simple. It explains any issues with both the anniversary episode, and the regeneration issue I have in the first place. It's sci-fi. It's not hard. The criticism I have the most is the lack of respect that it was tried to be explained in one line by Smith during Time of the Doctor. Redundant or arbitrary the regeneration rules are to some fans, they are a pretty big part of the Doctors story and lore lol.
It's more the fact that inconsistencies are created, when there are talented writers for a TV show that deals with sci-fi and time travel and can't cover up cracks. I mean write almost anything and make it sound believable. Heck, if there were 13 TARDIS's that showed up to save Gallifrey BUT there are going to be further Doctors outside of the planned 12 regenerations there were supposed to be, then make up a 5 minute scene. Off the top of my head, have a meeting of all the Gallifrey council talking about the new regeneration cycle, and make a point of saying.... I dunno.... The generations of one cycle can never cross paths with the other generation. Simple. It explains any issues with both the anniversary episode, and the regeneration issue I have in the first place. It's sci-fi. It's not hard. The criticism I have the most is the lack of respect that it was tried to be explained in one line by Smith during Time of the Doctor. Redundant or arbitrary the regeneration rules are to some fans, they are a pretty big part of the Doctors story and lore lol.
BrokenFiction
Member
I'll bet real money Pablo Hidalgo looks at DW lore and thanks his lucky stars he works for Lucasfilm.
lastplayed
Member
Yeah, they should watch The Two Doctors (30th anniversary) with an older 2nd Doctor and Jamie crossing over with 6, now that's a real timeline snarl. Fans and the Doctor Who EU had to come up with the Season 6B theory that Troughton was allowed to time travel and do missions for the Time Lords for a while before his exile/regeneration, in order to explain that one (and The Five Doctors).
@ShenmueGuru
Member
APZonerunner
Member
The thing about the Tom Baker thing in the 50th is that it does something really interesting - it puts an infinite time out there that's unending. At some point in the future, the Doctor will retire, become the curator, and try out a few of his old faces somehow. That much is clear. But the point is, we don't know when. We'll probably never see this happen, too, as Tom is -- well, Tom's too old, he won't be appearing in the show again, I shouldn't think.
So it puts this 'ending' out there, that's so far off and unattainable that for all intents and purposes the Doctor will be continuing on forever in the meantime. It's lovely. There is literally no way for any other writer to ever write any other ending to the show other than the Doctor walking off into the sunset on another adventure, because it'd contradict this beat in one of the most important DW stories of all time.
So it puts this 'ending' out there, that's so far off and unattainable that for all intents and purposes the Doctor will be continuing on forever in the meantime. It's lovely. There is literally no way for any other writer to ever write any other ending to the show other than the Doctor walking off into the sunset on another adventure, because it'd contradict this beat in one of the most important DW stories of all time.
I didn't say that specifically was a bad thing, I said its inclusion was typical of Moffat's style of writing whatever works in the moment and assume nobody will stop and think about it twice. That's not even something that you have to be a "hater" to say, and I'm not a "hater", even Moffat fans admit this is something he does (increasingly more often since Sherlock S2)
I never said putting Tom Baker in the special was a dumb idea, clearly it was a nice tribute. I was critiquing the way it was done which has led to the current discussion of "degenerations are canon", even though we're all agreed that anything beyond a throwaway for the special is a stupid idea. Which is a trend I identify throughout Moffat's writing in the same way RTD used to write himself into a corner every finale. We just had an example in the finale: Bill being turned into a Cyberman, except not really.
FutureLarking
Member
If you're a fan of Doctor Who and are expecting it to have some gospel hard canon rules and to always follow them you're doing it wrong. There's the expectation that we will often just make shit up to fit the story and we'll just roll with it, we're not Star Trek over here
Tizoc
Member
Yeah that's kinda my issue; like ark in space couldve been resolved as a 40-45 minute single episode by today's standards
Still the actual performance in the episodes is good enough for one to stick along
Ventilaator
Banned
I'm all for complaining about Moffat. He can do 100 stupid things with a Doctor Who story in his sleep.
And even I don't really see what the problem with the Curator would be. It was obviously an excuse to get Baker in, but for what is just a quick fanwank cameo, it's a pretty damn amazing excuse.
And even I don't really see what the problem with the Curator would be. It was obviously an excuse to get Baker in, but for what is just a quick fanwank cameo, it's a pretty damn amazing excuse.
Well, unless the "final" Doctor casually mentions off-hand that he spent some time in retirement as the Curator off-screen, then picks up his mini gun, shoots some female Daleks and then says his iconic catchphrase "Hasta la vista baby", presses the big red button on his Tardismobile, dropping the nuke on Cybermantown, blowing up himself and all his enemies at once.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
For all the complaining I see here about Moffat he certainly made the show feel more grounded and tangible. A little more grown up.
Go back and watch any serial from season 1 or 2 and you'll find yourself cringing at weird pop culture references and wink wink sex references. Between the iffy camera work, grading and editing you'll find that his era looks and feels much better than anyone gives it credit for.
Watch Age of Steel. That's a good example.
Go back and watch any serial from season 1 or 2 and you'll find yourself cringing at weird pop culture references and wink wink sex references. Between the iffy camera work, grading and editing you'll find that his era looks and feels much better than anyone gives it credit for.
Watch Age of Steel. That's a good example.
bishopcruz
Member
Yup yup! Eighth Doctor still best doctor!
Just finished the Season, and outside of a few snags I think this is probably my favorite season since Season 5. A lot of the stories this year actually felt a lot like some of the better Big Finish stuff in tone, which was right up my alley, and Bill was great I mean yeah, kinda BS that she got another "happy" ending, but still better than the shitting of the bet that was Hell Bent last year. I also loved the hell out of what they did with Missy, it makes me want to actually have a season with the Master as a companion, before he or she inevitably goes evil again.
I can't say Moffat is leaving on top, I doubt that he will ever top Heaven Sent, but outside of the Monk on earth story, I wasn't disappointed by any of the episodes. It was a bit odd having another Cyberman finale, but this was LOADS better than the s8 one.
Problem is, we know that it happens
Doctor: I never forget a face.
The Curator: I know you don't. And in years to come you might find yourself revisiting a few... but just the old favorites, eh?
I mean it's blatant that the Curator was a future Doctor.
Edit: How did I not see someone make the same point earlier. Whoops.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Oh for sure the shows production quality went up, but I'd arguing the color grading (at least in seasons 5-8) was pretty horrible. The show took on almost a duo-tone look with a heavy emphasis on a singular dominant color overlayed on everything. It made the show look less unique and more "everyday generic hd tv production". It's maddening going from seasons 3 & 4 to 5 - 7 because of this, it's like they lost all their uniqueness (in regards to the overal look of the show). But the actual technical qualities are much high, which is great, but a natural progression rather than something special.
I do agree the dropping of pop-culture oriented stuff was nice, made seasons 1-3 of the show feel very dated and cringie at times. But in that transition they lost some of the quirky heart of the show. That's what Moffats biggest issue was to me, he consintrated so much on plot and narrative he lost track of the unique heart the show had, those character moments that, sometimes were cringe, but a lot of time made you like the characters and see them as something more human and different from the standard television flare.
Overal I think he's a better "broad storkes, planning " guy then he is a lead writer/character writer. His best work came under others, not as the boss.
obin_gam
Member
I agree with both of you.
RTD had terreble cinematography, but it had heart and was "fun"
Moffat has great cinematography and good drama, but lacks the pure "funess".
Linkstrikesback
Member
Nah, that one's easy to handwave away. Whatever the calculations nonsense was that was needed for the final scene of the anniversary special required 13 tardises, so the first 13 regenerations with Tardises showed up.
Problem is, we know that it happens
Doctor: I never forget a face.
The Curator: I know you don't. And in years to come you might find yourself revisiting a few... but just the old favorites, eh?
I mean it's blatant that the Curator was a future Doctor.
Edit: How did I not see someone make the same point earlier. Whoops.
Yes, but that's the end point of the character. The Doctor regenerating into one of the previous Doctors should only happen when the show has been cancelled and guaranteed to never return.
I fully appreciate the irony of accidentally starting a Moffat v RTD debate while complaining the former does not fully appreciate consequences in his writing.
(Also on the subject of the Doctors saving Gallifrey I've never been quite clear on where that is supposed to fit into the 9th Doctor's timeline)
(Also on the subject of the Doctors saving Gallifrey I've never been quite clear on where that is supposed to fit into the 9th Doctor's timeline)
You could fit it (and presumably a lot of other stuff) into the ending of the very first episode, in between when he leaves Rose and returns to pick her up.
Pagusas
Elden Member
I alwyas just assumed it was before he met rose, though ironically the "clip" they took for him was from his final episode.
God damnit just thinking of that makes me hate chris eccleston even more. Things would have connected and made so much more sense without the War Doctor BS we had to put up with just because they couldnt get him back to do Day of the Doctor.
@ShenmueGuru
Member
Am I having a Friday moment, or is Eccleston not 10?
9 - Hurt
10 - Eccleston
11 - Tennant
12 - Smith
13 - Capaldi
9 - Hurt
10 - Eccleston
11 - Tennant
12 - Smith
13 - Capaldi
Hurt is not numbered.
acheron_xl
Member
I mean, if you're numbering Hurt, yeah. But once you open that can of worms then 11 and 12 are both Tennant.
@ShenmueGuru
Member
Oh my God lol. Regarded as a doctor, has a TARDIS, sonic screwdriver, regenerates from 8 and into 10...
But he's not a Doctor haahahaa.
This show.
But he's not a Doctor haahahaa.
This show.
ClivePwned
Member
That whole thing where Moffat fudged it so that Matt Smith was technically the last Doctor of his original regeneration cycle was so pointless-either just as a way to ratchet up the drama or he felt the show needed to address the regeneration limit or he wanted to be the one to come up with an explanation.
So the next Doctor will be the 13th, they'll now be the 15th thanks to Moffat.
If it were me, and not knowing how available or amenable Paul McGann was regarding shooting the 50th special, and with the benefit of hindsight, it would have made more sense, in lieu of Eccleston's participation, to make McGann take on the War Doctor's role.
That said, John Hurt was brilliant so I can't be made about that.
So the next Doctor will be the 13th, they'll now be the 15th thanks to Moffat.
If it were me, and not knowing how available or amenable Paul McGann was regarding shooting the 50th special, and with the benefit of hindsight, it would have made more sense, in lieu of Eccleston's participation, to make McGann take on the War Doctor's role.
That said, John Hurt was brilliant so I can't be made about that.
Well, it's more that the it's pretty much set in stone to name specific doctors in terms of their order in the sequence, and inserting extras into the gaps makes life difficult for everyone. He's absolutely the 9th Doctor, but he's not The Ninth Doctor, if you see what I mean.
So put it this way:
The 8th Doctor: The Eighth Doctor (McGann)
The 9th Doctor: The War Doctor (Hurt)
The 10th Doctor: The Ninth Doctor (Eccleston)
The 11th Doctor: The Tenth Doctor (Tennant)
The 12th Doctor: The Other Tenth Doctor (Tennant)
The 13th Doctor: The Eleventh Doctor (Smith)
The 14th Doctor (first of a new cycle): The Twelfth Doctor (Capaldi)
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