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[CountAntonius]

still, margeary is more waifu material than cersei

She sure is.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

It's clear though that he's not gonna change his mind. And we won't change ours, so with no rudeness I'm saying what's even the point

He's changed mine a little, actually. I used to think Cersei was up there with Ramsey and Joffrey, but while I was compiling the list of her bad deeds, it occurred to me that most of her actions really aren't as bad as the psychopathy that some people in the show have engaged in. Her actions have a purpose, even if it's being a spiteful shithead. She's not the "tear the wings off flies and watch them suffer" type; she's the "steal something, blame it on the maid and watch her beaten for it" type. She's still bad, obviously, but she's not (or hasn't been anyway) as depraved as the levels of torture that Ramsey and Joffrey were titillated by. Obviously anyone saying Margaery is just as bad has a screw loose somewhere, but Cersei is not nearly as bad as I had originally thought.

 

[Einchy]

you weren't, but Einchy & Nameless were

No, I wasn't. I was trying to point out to you how your criticisms of Cersei, could also be applied to Margaery, someone you tried to paint as an innocent bystander of the game. You tried to say that Cersei only does what she does for power, which wasn't really the cause because most of what she did was to protect her children, something you disagree, but even ignoring that part, that's exactly what Margaery did, there's no disagreeing there. She would marry a usurper against the rightful heir, because her house believed the Lannisters didn't have a rightful claim, and when he was defeated, instead of helping Stannis, they went directly to the Lannisters. All Margaery wanted was power from the get go, that was her only goal.

I never claimed that Cersei was a good person, I specifically have said she isn't, but her actions are way more nuanced than "she wants power" or "she's evil". She has been constantly put in situations where she has no options but to hp against a "good" character that we like, but doing the opposite would just lead to her death or that of her children. Cersei is far too strong to just late other people decide her fate like that.

Likewise with Margaery, she isn't an evil or good character, she's morally grey like a lot of characters, she has done both good and bad things, and it was all because she wanted power. And doing it for power is neither a bad or good thing, it's just her motivations, she can do good things to get there or bad things, she does both.

He's changed mine a little, actually. I used to think Cersei was up there with Ramsey and Joffrey, but while I was compiling the list of her bad deeds, it occurred to me that most of her actions really aren't as bad as the psychopathy that some people in the show have engaged in. Her actions have a purpose, even if it's being a spiteful shithead. She's not the "tear the wings off flies and watch them suffer" type; she's the "steal something, blame it on the maid and watch her beaten for it" type. She's still bad, obviously, but she's not (or hasn't been anyway) as depraved as the levels of torture that Ramsey and Joffrey were titillated by. Obviously anyone saying Margaery is just as bad has a screw loose somewhere, but Cersei is not nearly as bad as I had originally thought.

That's my whole point, and I'm at least glad you see it.

Joffrey and Ramsay are evil, and do evil things because it brings them pleasure, Cersei does bad things because she has to to survive. At least she mostly has, recently it seems like with the death of Tommen, she lost her mind and she might go full on evil. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Nameless]

Okay fine she knew about the war. But, she had her own life to deal with and has zero experience with Westeros. In a way, her whole she's been alone. No family or anything like maester Aemon said "a targaryen alone in the world, it's a terrible thing."
I'm just going to shorten this for you: I don't think Dany would do anything to win, when she learned of 1 little girl being burned alive by her dragons she was shook, and locked them up. No amount of Cersei saying how Joffrey was a bad idea will change the fact that Joffrey got the iron throne in the first place because of her just like the High sparrow took over King's landing because of her.

I don't think you're enjoying arguing about this anymore right? I mean, if you want to keep talking about it we can but it's just a back and forth like youtube comments now. But we can continue if you want.

Yes Joffrey claimed the throne because of Cersei. But you tried to frame like she A. Was fully aware of just how far gone he was. B. Did it on some evil whim just to increase her own standing -- not as a response to someone threatening the existence of her House. The scenes I posted show that no, she wasn't aware of the depths of Joffs psychosis and was deeply troubled by how he turned out.

 

[ComputerBlue]

I dont think varys or any others have spies North of the wall.

The only way anyone knows what goes on North of the wall are from the watch. And to the citizens of westeros the night's watch is:

A penal Colony to send criminals (rapers and thieves)
Unwanted sons (Poor sam)

To quote Jon snow
"Everyone knew what this place was and didnt tell me"

Nobody cares what happens up there or to the people in the watch

I'm sure they'd be curious as to why the Lord Commander allowed the Wildlings to come South of the wall, it would be really surprising if they didn't even question how profound of an act that as and what it might imply.

 

[The Artisan]

He's changed mine a little, actually. I used to think Cersei was up there with Ramsey and Joffrey, but while I was compiling the list of her bad deeds, it occurred to me that most of her actions really aren't as bad as the psychopathy that some people in the show have engaged in. Her actions have a purpose, even if it's being a spiteful shithead. She's not the "tear the wings off flies and watch them suffer" type; she's the "steal something, blame it on the maid and watch her beaten for it" type. She's still bad, obviously, but she's not (or hasn't been anyway) as depraved as the levels of torture that Ramsey and Joffrey were titillated by. Obviously anyone saying Margaery is just as bad has a screw loose somewhere, but Cersei is not nearly as bad as I had originally thought.

I see, that's interesting. For me though, I look at Cersei as Queen and if Ramsay was still in power and she learned of his actions and warden of the north, I feel like she wouldn't care and wouldn't take any measures to outlaw the flaying. She don't give a fuck about the realm, all the give a fuck about is the power. And that, might as well make her just as bad as him.

The thing about Cersei for me is, for as long as I've watched the show, she's who I wanted to go down the most, and in the back of my head I wonder

No, I wasn't. I was trying to point out to you how your criticisms of Cersei, could also be applied to Margaery, someone you tried to paint as an innocent bystander of the game. You tried to say that Cersei only does what she does for power, which wasn't really the cause because most of what she did was to protect her children, something you disagree, but even ignoring that part, that's exactly what Margaery did, there's no disagreeing there. She would marry a usurper against the rightful heir, because her house believed the Lannisters didn't have a rightful claim, and when he was defeated, instead of helping Stannis, they went directly to the Lannisters. All Margaery wanted was power from the get go, that was her only goal.

I never claimed that Cersei was a good person, I specifically have said she isn't, but her actions are way more nuanced than "she wants power" or "she's evil". She has been constantly put in situations where she has no options but to hp against a "good" character that we like, but doing the opposite would just lead to her death or that of her children. Cersei is far too strong to just late other people decide her fate like that.

Likewise with Margaery, she isn't an evil or good character, she's morally grey like a lot of characters, she has done both good and bad things, and it was all because she wanted power. And doing it for power is neither a bad or good thing, it's just her motivations, she can do good things to get there or bad things, she does both.

Alright, I agree with some of the things you say here but now all. I know you never claimed Cersei was a good person, but I'm not ignoring what you say of her protecting her children; I disagree and this part we will not agree on. She put Joffrey on the throne knowing the monster that he was, instead of accepting Ned's peace offer and that was power before protecting children number 1, and she killed everyone standing at her trial including her son's wife, she would have to know the amount of mental damage she would do to him if she cared and the argument of Tommen being manipulating doesn't mean anything to me because Margery's influence on Tommen would have always been better for him than Cersei's but Cersei just did not like losing her grip on the power of the world overall, as well as avoiding to face the consequences and confessions of her crimes and even blaming her own son for it, that was power before protection number 2.

That's all I have to say on this. Just know that if you want to talk about this more then we're probably just going to go in circles now.

 

[Nameless]

you weren't, but Einchy & Nameless were

I'm all for just accepting that people's perspectives can just be from a different view sometimes and that's that. As long as there's a mutual respect. We're all in this thread coz we love this show. No 2 people in this whole world will ever agree on anything and that's fine. I love the show all the same, Cersei is a great character, evil as all fuck, but great.

What? Please quote me when I argued this. I showed how she was just as complicit in escalating the conflict/Game between the two women/Houses, but if I don't think Dany or Cersei are evil, why would I think Margaery is?

Again I've never once claimed Cersei wasn't a bad person or unlikeable or ruthless. Just that the character and her circumstances are too complex to simply peg as evil, which you can easily do with the actual evil characters I mentioned.

 

[The Artisan]

Yes Joffrey claimed the throne because of Cersei. But you tried to frame like she A. Was fully aware of just how far gone he was. B. Did it on some evil whim just to increase her own standing -- not as a response to someone threatening the existence of her House. The scenes I posted show that no, she wasn't aware of the depths of Joffs psychosis and was deeply troubled by how he turned out.

A. I do believe she was fully aware. That story Tommen told Margery about Joffrey threatening to kill his cat, that's just one of probably many horrifying threats he heard from his big brother. Cersei as a mother hearing those things are obvious signs your son is fucked up. B. And I am still going by that. Ned offered her a peaceful leave, not a threat to the existence of her house. She wasn't willing to accept losing power in season 1, just like she wasn't willing to lose power in season 6. That scene did not mean anything to me because she as a character too has done fucked up shit, some of it after Joffrey dies but it's weird to believe that she "learned" it from him. Joffrey gets this nature from somewhere, that's his mother, who as far as I'm concerned since she's now queen, is probably capable of much worse.

 

[The Artisan]

What? Please quote me when I argued this. I showed how she was just as complicit in escalating the conflict/Game between the two women/Houses, but if I don't think Dany or Cersei are evil, why would I think Margaery is?

Again I've never once claimed Cersei wasn't a bad person or unlikeable or ruthless. Just that the character and her circumstances are too complex to simply peg as evil, which you can easily do with the actual evil characters I mentioned.

I didn't mean that you verbatim said Dany and Margery are just as bad as Cersei, I meant that going back and forth with you in discussion the general vibe you gave off was that with justifying Cersei's actions while saying how Dany's actions or intentions aren't that far off, and I know you never claimed Cersei wasn't bad but you've had this weird issue of people calling her evil. She is fucking evil, man.

edit: sorry for double post

 

[Nameless]

A. I do believe she was fully aware. That story Tommen told Margery about Joffrey threatening to kill his cat, that's just one of probably many horrifying threats he heard from his big brother. Cersei as a mother hearing those things are obvious signs your son is fucked up. B. And I am still going by that. Ned offered her a peaceful leave, not a threat to the existence of her house. She wasn't willing to accept losing power in season 1, just like she wasn't willing to lose power in season 6. That scene did not mean anything to me because she as a character too has done fucked up shit, some of it after Joffrey dies but it's weird to believe that she "learned" it from him. Joffrey gets this nature from somewhere, that's his mother, who as far as I'm concerned since she's now queen, is probably capable of much worse.

Well you're wrong. It's right there in the show. There's another scene where she speaks about not being easily shocked and how Joffrey's actions shocked her but I can't recall exactly what season or episode. Hell, look at her reaction when after he kills Ned.

Ned offered her little more than a head start. Robert would've still been out for the heads of her, her brother, and her children and the Lannisters would have become public enemy #1 against the other six kingdoms.

 

[Nameless]

I didn't mean that you verbatim said Dany and Margery are just as bad as Cersei, I meant that going back and forth with you in discussion the general vibe you gave off was that with justifying Cersei's actions while saying how Dany's actions or intentions aren't that far off, and I know you never claimed Cersei wasn't bad but you've had this weird issue of people calling her evil. She is fucking evil, man.

edit: sorry for double post

Not so much as justify, simply providing context beyond 'she did it because she's evil'.

 

[The Artisan]

Well you're wrong.

Well, I can say the same thing to you.

It's right there in the show. There's another scene where she speaks about not being easily shocked and how Joffrey's actions shocked her but I can't recall exactly what season or episode. Hell, look at her reaction when after he kills Ned.

I remember that scene, and I thought she was full of shit. Someone in this thread said not to always take characters for their word but also their action and I agree with that.

Ned offered her little more than a head start. Robert would've still been out for the heads of her, her brother, and her children and the Lannisters would have become public enemy #1 against the other six kingdoms.

First of all, the Lannisters are public enemy #1 against the other six kingdoms and second of all, Robert was dead, all Cersei had to do was relinquish the throne but again she didn't wanna lose power so a war began brewing. If it came it came down to Renly vs Stannis and eventually one of them vs. Dany, they'd be busy having each other to deal with to bother with the Lannisters.

 

[Nameless]

Well, I can say the same thing to you. I remember that scene, and I thought she was full of shit. Someone in this thread said not to always take characters for their word but also their action and I agree with that.

First of all, the Lannisters are public enemy #1 against the other six kingdoms and second of all, Robert was dead, all Cersei had to do was relinquish the throne but again she didn't wanna lose power so a war began brewing. If it came it came down to Renly vs Stannis and eventually one of them vs. Dany, they'd be busy having each other to deal with to bother with the Lannisters.

-You could but you would have done so without offering multiple examples directly from the source material.

-Can you point to something in the scenes I posted that implies she bullshitting? Rewatch Season 2 and take note of her interactions with Joff. If it was some outlier conversation, maybe. But her actions throughout the season reinforce what I'm saying.

-She begins plotting when first Ned comes to her and tells her to leave. Robert was alive then. Everything was in place for Joffrey's ascension and Ned's downfall the second he died.

 

[ferr]

So what's with the "Has she come yet" guy? Is he a future person? Maybe he's already read the books and was teleported into the book Jumanji style? Maybe it's GRRM??

 

[Einchy]

So what's with the "Has she come yet" guy? Is he a future person? Maybe he's already read the books and was teleported into the book Jumanji style? Maybe it's GRRM??

That's Jorah, I'm surprised how many people forgot his sexy ass voice.

 

[ferr]

That's Jorah, I'm surprised how many people forgot his sexy ass voice.

Kind of thought that based on the beard and weird obsession with her, but was hoping for the Jumanji thing.

 

[Robdraggoo]

So what's with the "Has she come yet" guy? Is he a future person? Maybe he's already read the books and was teleported into the book Jumanji style? Maybe it's GRRM??

Jorah fooking mormont

He's been with danny since episode 1

 

[Google]

Kind of thought that based on the beard and weird obsession with her, but was hoping for the Jumanji thing.

What about the fucking amass of dragon scales on his body?

 

[The Artisan]

Not so much as justify, simply providing context beyond 'she did it because she's evil'.

It sounds like you justified it here, when you relegated everyone that died in the sept as collateral when really compared to Cersei they were all way more innocent than her. You also say they were trying to "do the same to her" but we have no reason to believe Loras, or even Margery, or Mace, or even the high sparrow wanted to kill her. You also sounded like you were justifying here, when you basically conformed to Cersei's dialogue in the season premier.

these posts sum up pretty much what I feel about the whole Dany vs Margery vs Cersei arguments

A motivation is not a justification. Cersei is evil. Her having motivations for her evil actions does not change that.

Also, anyone who happily employs the Mountain, one of the most evil and despicable characters in the show, is probably evil as well.

They're opportunists before being good and moral people. Cersei is an opportunist IN PLACE OF being a good and moral person. There's a difference. Margaery is shown engaging in charitable activity multiple times. Maybe she's doing it for "the wrong reasons," but it's still charitable activity. Name one charitable act Cersei has done in the entire series. Defending Sansa from her horrible son one time? Arguing that Ned shouldn't be beheaded after she threw him in jail for no reason? Margaery may be a power-grabbing opportunist, but she always tried to do it in a "nice" way. Cersei just doesn't give a fuck, increasingly so as she became a drunk and watched her kids die.

-You could but you would have done so without offering multiple examples directly from the source material.

That's wrong because I provided the example of what I think about that story Tommen told Margery about Joffrey threatening to skin his cat. And I don't have to provide other examples because you provided them, I just happen to have a different interpretation of the events.

-Can you point to something in the scenes I posted that implies she bullshitting? Rewatch Season 2 and take note of her interactions with Joff.

I'm not going to rewatch a season because of this discussion we're having, especially when I don't agree with you. Just accept the fact that my perspective on it all is different. There's nothing to point out. When I, for example watch Cersei telling Margery "The things he did, they shocked me. Do you think they shocked me?" in my mind my reaction is gtfo cersei you brought all of this on yourself

If it was some outlier conversation, maybe. But her actions throughout the season reinforce what I'm saying.

They reinforce what I'm saying too that she loves power more than her children which for me is confirmed with how she handled both the beginning of Joffrey's and Tommen's kingdoms and in Tommen's case also the end of his kingdom.

-She begins plotting when first Ned comes to her and tells her to leave. Robert was alive then. Everything was in place for Joffrey's ascension and Ned's downfall the second he died.

And it started with her wanting to stay in power. The murder of King Robert, the succession of Joffrey, all because she wanted to stay in power. She refused Ned's offer because of that most of all.

 

[Curufinwe]

She sure is.

It's funny cause she's dead.

 

[Nameless]

Anyone else think it was a dick move for Jorah to reach out towards Sam like that? Samwell's miracle survival was thiiiiiis close to being over.

 

[The Artisan]

Anyone else think it was a dick move for Jorah to reach out towards Sam like that? Samwell's miracle survival was thiiiiiis close to being over.

I took it as a hint that maybe Jorah is start to lose his mind? Like in the last of us where once you are infected, slowly you turn and lose your grip on your humanity...

 

[Nameless]

It sounds like you justified it here, when you relegated everyone that died in the sept as collateral when really compared to Cersei they were all way more innocent than her. You also say they were trying to "do the same to her" but we have no reason to believe Loras, or even Margery, or Mace, or even the high sparrow wanted to kill her. You also sounded like you were justifying here, when you basically conformed to Cersei's dialogue in the season premier.

these posts sum up pretty much what I feel about the whole Dany vs Margery vs Cersei arguments



That's wrong because I provided the example of what I think about that story Tommen told Margery about Joffrey threatening to skin his cat. And I don't have to provide other examples because you provided them, I just happen to have a different interpretation of the events.

I'm not going to rewatch a season because of this discussion we're having, especially when I don't agree with you. Just accept the fact that my perspective on it all is different. There's nothing to point out. When I, for example watch Cersei telling Margery "The things he did, they shocked me. Do you think they shocked me?" in my mind my reaction is gtfo cersei you brought all of this on yourself They reinforce what I'm saying too that she loves power more than her children which for me is confirmed with how she handled both the beginning of Joffrey's and Tommen's kingdoms and in Tommen's case also the end of his kingdom.

And it started with her wanting to stay in power. The murder of King Robert, the succession of Joffrey, all because she wanted to stay in power. She refused Ned's offer because of that most of all.

-She was setting out to kill the Sparrows and the Tyrells, everyone else was quite literally collateral damage. And come on man, the second part was me showing why she would 'insult his memory'.

-Kids say fucked up things all the time. We have no way of knowing if Cersei knew about that incident and there's no reason to believe that would have(or should have) led her to believe he's a psycho, then much less a decade + later

-Then your assessment is flat out wrong by the fact she didn't outright murder her children and grab control for herself seasons ago, which what a truly evil person who cared for power more than their family would have done...see Ramsay.

-It started as a means to survive and opportunities to gain power opened up, which she grabbed. I was saying this yesterday and said it today not sure why you keep repeating it like I don't agree.

I'll respond later if you really want to keep going in circles. BOTW is calling.

 

[Curufinwe]

Anyone else think it was a dick move for Jorah to reach out towards Sam like that? Samwell's miracle survival was thiiiiiis close to being over.

Nah, Sam had really big gloves on.

 

[Venture]

Yeah, honestly Jorah would've got the worst of it. Touching Sam's nasty poop n' soup gloves.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Sansa is the new Cersei, lol.

 

[thesoapster]

With Sam only eating those portions and running around doing all that work...why isn't he losing weight?!

 

[CountAntonius]

Sansa is the new Cersei, lol.

Sansa is really channeling early Cersei now.

Looking that way.

 

[newtypepilot]

LOL Tormund and the bear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eioydZCYR0

there's also another one with Brienne on Kristofer Hivju's instagram

 

[The Artisan]

-She was setting out to kill the Sparrows and the Tyrells, everyone else was quite literally collateral damage.

Exactly...you're relegating Loras & Mace Tyrell (they did nothing for Cersei to want to kill them as far as I can tell) and the bystanders as "collateral damage", a damage that does not phase Cersei at all. You make it sound like the ends justify the means, not just in Cersei's mind, but in general.

And come on man, the second part was me showing why she would 'insult his memory'.

Yah man and my reaction and response to it is that she is evil and put her grip on power, above the welfare of Tommen. Hence, she loved power more than him.

-Kids say fucked up things all the time. We have no way of knowing if Cersei knew about that incident and there's no reason to believe that would have(or should have) led her to believe he's a psycho, then much less a decade + later

If my kid said fucked up things like "I'm gonna take your pet cat and skin him alive and then put him in your potato salad" that would alarm the shit out of me. Joffrey also had a habit of torturing animals and that would bother the fuck outta me too if I was a parent of his.

-Then your assessment is flat out wrong by the fact she didn't outright murder her children and grab control for herself seasons ago, which what a truly evil person who cared for power more than their family would have done...see Ramsay.

She had power while her children were still alive so my assessment is right for the interpretation I have.

-It started as a means to survive and opportunities to gain power opened up, which she grabbed. I was saying this yesterday and said it today not sure why you keep repeating it like I don't agree.

No, it started with a means to stay in power. She saw an opportunity at that by poisoning Robert, and by putting Joffrey on the throne as fast as I can. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "like" you don't agree, because you don't, you kept saying it was for survival and I don't believe that.

I'll respond later if you really want to keep going in circles. BOTW is calling.

lol. dude, I am the one who offered for us to stop going in circles, and you volunteered to continue. so this back and forth convo ends when you want it to.

Nah, Sam had really big gloves on.

He didn't know that. He couldn't have.

 

[Heshinsi]

If I was in charge, she wouldn't have spent 6 season in the who gives a fuck continent This isn't some huge issue, just felt odd. Some guys could have easily hidden from the dragons and straight up murdered her right there, it would have been the most hilarious kill in tv history after all that wait.

My sister made a good point though since Danny has her head so far up her own ass, it makes sense that she walks in front of everyone despite it being a bad idea. So it fits with her character.

Well that's not entirely true though is it? You recall the fly by of Dragonstone that her little babies did before she landed? That was the security sweep

 

[Curufinwe]

Why do you think that's the first time anyone has put food down for Jorah in his new home in the contamination ward?

It's a weird thing to even be worried out, honestly.

 

[Heshinsi]

Why do you think that's the first time anyone has put food down for Jorah in his new home in the contamination ward?

It's a weird thing to even be worried out, honestly.

What makes you believe that he got food for the first time in that scene?

 

[Crossing Eden]

She sure is.

TFW Margaery never got the chance to spring whatever trap card she had up her sleeve against the High Sparrow

She just needed more time...

 

[CountAntonius]

TFW Margaery never got the chance to spring whatever trap card she had up her sleeve against the High Sparrow

She just needed more time...

Yep she was definitely working an angle. Though when the Sparrow carved up her brother it seemed to have somewhat backfired on her. I don't think she had the control over him she thought she did.

 

[Nameless]

Exactly...you're relegating Loras & Mace Tyrell (they did nothing for Cersei to want to kill them as far as I can tell) and the bystanders as "collateral damage", a damage that does not phase Cersei at all. You make it sound like the ends justify the means, not just in Cersei's mind, but in general.Yah man and my reaction and response to it is that she is evil and put her grip on power, above the welfare of Tommen. Hence, she loved power more than him

If my kid said fucked up things like "I'm gonna take your pet cat and skin him alive and then put him in your potato salad" that would alarm the shit out of me. Joffrey also had a habit of torturing animals and that would bother the fuck outta me too if I was a parent of his.

She had power while her children were still alive so my assessment is right for the interpretation I have.

No, it started with a means to stay in power. She saw an opportunity at that by poisoning Robert, and by putting Joffrey on the throne as fast as I can. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "like" you don't agree, because you don't, you kept saying it was for survival and I don't believe that.

lol. dude, I am the one who offered for us to stop going in circles, and you volunteered to continue. so this back and forth convo ends when you want it to.


He didn't know that. He couldn't have.

-You're using the cheap tactic of pretending like we aren't discussing morality solely in the context of the show. Of course I don't justify mass murder -- it's like me implying you were justifying war by supporting Dany's conquest. But in this fantasy world with a well established cutthroat political system where Great Houses ruthlessly jockey for power & influence and routinely kill, if not wipe each other out of existence or close to it, yes Cersei's actions made complete sense. Leaving your enemies alive in this world, in this Game, is an extreme risk. Just ask Walder Frey, Jon, or countless others. Robert's small council coming to the decision to murder a child on the other side of the world was fucked, but now you see their worst fears coming to pass.

-Again, prove Cersei knew about this or you're just conjecturing to pad your argument.

-So what. Your argument was she's evil and cares about power more than she cares about her family. If that were true, there's no reason she didn't have her kids slaughtered after Robert died(or anything other time) -- she could've blamed it on Northmen. Tyrion and Tywin too if they got in her way.

Wrong. Her plot to take down Robert and Ned started here:

https://youtu.be/ucB4UrhI-3w

Her plot to blow up the Sept stated here:

https://youtu.be/tGYHcnPnF5s

Both times her back was against the wall and she reacted. And with the Sept attack her original plan was to simply get off by having Ser Gregor win a trial by combat, not to make a power grab.

I've said my peace. By all means take the last word .

 

[Goodstyle]

I've said my peace. By all means take the last word .

I'm sure it'll be clever.

Spoiler

EDIT: No disrespect to anyone involved in this argument, I respect the opinons here even if I don't agree with some. I just felt like I had to say that because of Sansa.

 

[The Artisan]

-You're using the cheap tactic of pretending like we aren't discussing morality solely in the context of the show.

Perhaps my perspective on morality on the show is different from yours fundamentally, so maybe consider that before accusing me of "using the cheap tactic"?

Of course I don't justify mass murder -- it's like me implying you were justifying war by supporting Dany's conquest. But in this fantasy world with a well established cutthroat political system where Great Houses ruthlessly jockey for power & influence and routinely kill, if not wipe each other out of existence or close to it, yes Cersei's actions made complete sense. Leaving your enemies alive in this world, in this Game, is an extreme risk.

Cersei kills people who she just doesn't like. She has made more and more enemies this way. And she does it to keep power. She denied Ned Stark's offer for peace & leave because it would take away her power, she killed Margery because she hated that there was a new queen instead of her and decided that makes her an enemy. The whole point of political marriages are ALLIANCES but because Cersei was losing some power over it she couldn't stand it.

Just ask Walder Frey, Jon, or countless others. Robert's small council coming to the decision to murder a child on the other side of the world was fucked, but now you see their worst fears coming to pass.

Just ask -Again, prove Cersei knew about this or you're just conjecturing to pad your argument.

What the fuck? My mind and brain is wired differently from yours so my interpretations are therefore different. Just deal with it. It's like me asking you come up with proof that she was 100% honest about everything.

-So what.

That's what.

Your argument was she's evil and cares about power more than she cares about her family. If that were true, there's no reason she didn't have her kids slaughtered after Robert died(or anything other time) -- she could've blamed it on Northmen. Tyrion and Tywin too if they got in her way.

Nope, there is a reason. She loves her children the most after power. If she has the most power she possibly can while her children are alive that's what satisfies her. She had no reason to kill anyone, until time came for Joffrey to marry someone who it ended up being Margery.

Wrong. Her plot to take down Robert and Ned started here:

https://youtu.be/ucB4UrhI-3w

Nope. The same thing I said before applies; Ned offers her a leave with peace. She refuses that because she'd have to give up power, give up being queen.

Her plot to blow up the Sept stated here:

https://youtu.be/tGYHcnPnF5s

Both times her back was against the wall and she reacted. And with the Sept attack her original plan was to simply get off by having Ser Gregor win a trial by combat, not to make a power grab.

...that doesn't change anything. She is guilty as all hell anyways, she wasn't innocent by any means at all. She would have to give up power by going to trial and she wouldn't have it.

Both times are when her power was threatened. That was her first concern. And she planned that attack to kill people, a lot of people who had not deserved death and she felt nothing for it.

I've said my peace. By all means take the last word .

Happy to move on, then!

I'm sure it'll be clever.

Spoiler

EDIT: No disrespect to anyone involved in this argument, I respect the opinons here even if I don't agree with some. I just felt like I had to say that because of Sansa.

not as clever as him

 

[Zelenogorsk]

The only thing the premiere was missing was some Bronn. Never enough Bronn.

 

[The Artisan]

The only thing the premiere was missing was some Bronn. Never enough Bronn.

Davos didn't even talk. I wanted to see what he would think would be the next best move for the north too. He's usually good at getting people to settle.

 

[Goodstyle]

not as clever as him

I seriously cannot wait for them to meet again.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

Davos didn't even talk. I wanted to see what he would think would be the next best move for the north too. He's usually good at getting people to settle.

Yeah I love Davos but I fear that all his lines from here on out are going to just be "We have to work together!"

 

[Fenderputty]

Joffrey and Ramsay are evil, and do evil things because it brings them pleasure, Cersei does bad things because she has to to survive. At least she mostly has, recently it seems like with the death of Tommen, she lost her mind and she might go full on evil. We will have to wait and see.

I mean, if your view of evil is so narrow that only sadistic fucks like Joffrey and Ramsey fit, sure Cersei isn't evil.

You're basically describing the motherly version of the banality of evil.

 

[The Artisan]

I seriously cannot wait for them to meet again.

if they meet again :\

i think there are going to be a lot of reunions in this season, though.

Yeah I love Davos but I fear that all his lines from here on out are going to just be "We have to work together!"

You have a good point there, but, I have a theory about the next episode based on the preview.

scenes from the episode 2 preview:

Spoiler

Royce said a Targaryen cannot be trusted. Probably talking about Dany. I think maybe at this point Jon has gotten a raven from Dany just like the one he got from Cersei, but he also gets Sam's raven telling him to go there (to Dragonstone). Davos will pitch in to help Jon in his argument to go to Dragonstone, since he has been there himself and can confirm that there is a lot of dragonglass there.

Also, i wish royce would have a scene talking with jon snow directly. i wonder what he thinks of him

 

[Heshinsi]

if they meet again :\

i think there are going to be a lot of reunions in this season, though.
You have a good point there, but, I have a theory about the next episode based on the preview.

scenes from the episode 2 preview:

Spoiler

Royce said a Targaryen cannot be trusted. Probably talking about Dany. I think maybe at this point Jon has gotten a raven from Dany just like the one he got from Cersei, but he also gets Sam's raven telling him to go there (to Dragonstone). Davos will pitch in to help Jon in his argument to go to Dragonstone, since he has been there himself and can confirm that there is a lot of dragonglass there.

Also, i wish royce would have a scene talking with jon snow directly. i wonder what he thinks of him

Preview:

Spoiler

I doubt Dany sent him a raven, but I do believe he gets the revan from Sam. Royce unknowingly saying that Targaryens can't be trusted to the son of Rhaegar Targaryen gives me the giggles. Oh I can't wait for Jon and everyone to find out who his real papa is, and for certain elements in the North to show their true colours.

 

[The Artisan]

Preview:

Spoiler

I doubt Dany sent him a raven, but I do believe he gets the revan from Sam. Royce unknowingly saying that Targaryens can't be trusted to the son of Rhaegar Targaryen gives me the giggles. Oh I can't wait for Jon and everyone to find out who his real papa is, and for certain elements in the North to show their true colours.

You know what I was just thinking? Maybe the reason why Sansa is having such a hard time getting along with Jon is because he's just different from the rest of their siblings; he is their cousin, after all.

If it were Robb there, in Jon's place, I think Robb would've agreed with Sansa to reward other Houses with Karstark & Umber land.

Or maybe I'm just reaching.

 

[Volimar]

I wonder if it will even get out. Presumably Bran will tell Jon in private, so unless Jon does the idiotically stupidly noble thing and tells everyone...

Oh crap.

 

[soundscream]

You know what I was just thinking? Maybe the reason why Sansa is having such a hard time getting along with Jon is because he's just different from the rest of their siblings; he is their cousin, after all.

If it were Robb there, in Jon's place, I think Robb would've agreed with Sansa to reward other Houses with Karstark & Umber land.

Or maybe I'm just reaching.

Yeah because siblings always get along.

*remembers brother I havent spoke with in 3 years*

 

[StrangeADT]

With Sam only eating those portions and running around doing all that work...why isn't he losing weight?!

He serves the food. Probably sneaking portions offscreen.

 

[The Artisan]

Yeah because siblings always get along.

*remembers brother I havent spoke with in 3 years*

true. she didn't get along with arya either and the only scenes with her and robb, bran, and rickon there's barely any interaction.

but i still think, based off of how robb was king in the north in season 2 & 3, that if he was in jon's place in season 7 he would've sided with sansa on this decision.