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"Ludonarrative Dissonance" - by Folding Ideas (yes, we're going there yet again!)
- Thread starter Farks!
- Start date
The Artisan
Member
interesting vid. wasn't there an uncharted 4 trophy named after this term
Glass Shark
Banned
Totally agree with the thesis of this video. I think the Errant Signal that it references really disproves its own point. It argues that games should be criticized as a whole work, which is exactly what ludonarrative dissonance does. It attempts to break down silos of the traditional review structure to talk more holistically about how different pieces of a game fit together.
The Transformers example in the video is a really good example of how you can apply the concept to film, and I think there are probably plenty of others if you really sit down and think about it. LD is just another tool in the critic's toolbox, and I don't think it's wise that we attempt to wall things off and restrict what qualifies as legitimate criticism in this way.
The Transformers example in the video is a really good example of how you can apply the concept to film, and I think there are probably plenty of others if you really sit down and think about it. LD is just another tool in the critic's toolbox, and I don't think it's wise that we attempt to wall things off and restrict what qualifies as legitimate criticism in this way.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Excellent video.
Ludonarrative dissonance is a perfectly valid criticism, and it pains me when I see people in these threads handwave it away as being irrelevant because "it's a game."
Ludonarrative dissonance is a perfectly valid criticism, and it pains me when I see people in these threads handwave it away as being irrelevant because "it's a game."
Either that or because it has this buzzword status. Perfectly valid term though when used correctly.
SolidSnakex
Member
Yep, Neil actually described it as his proudest moment because he despises the term so much.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Nail Druckmann isn't big on applying criticism beyond a review score.
Please also read the description of the video:
Seriously, please stop with this "It's just a game, stop thinking about it" mentality. It's really fucking tiresome.
If you personally don't want to talk or think about a subject, that's perfectly fine. But in that case shut the fuck up, don't even post in such threads and don't leave a comment.
Don't discourage others and try to stifle an ongoing discussion only because you are not interested in it.
Folding Ideas said:
Seriously, please stop with this "It's just a game, stop thinking about it" mentality. It's really fucking tiresome.
If you personally don't want to talk or think about a subject, that's perfectly fine. But in that case shut the fuck up, don't even post in such threads and don't leave a comment.
Don't discourage others and try to stifle an ongoing discussion only because you are not interested in it.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
The arguments against ludonarrative dissonance as a criticism have always been incredibly flimsy and, in my opinion, deeply laden in reactionary "stop criticising what I like" thinking. Though it doesn't at all detract from a person's subjective and personal investment in and enjoyment of a video game, some people get unusually dismissive at any attempt to see their entertainment dissected and assessed from another perspective.
Ludonarrative dissonance is one of my favourite topics of conversation pertaining to interactive arts because it's one of the most significant facets of design contextually relevant to the entire medium. Interactive works are fascinating in the ways they can convey narratives, ideas, themes, and emotional beats due to the blend of traditional cinematic principles and audience based agency. The reality is the narrative rarely stops regardless of what is happen on the screen, and so the discussion of what-I-saw vs what-I-played is wholly valid.
It's also a wonderful topic to discuss for people who wish to explore their own thoughts on what they want to derive from the medium, to better understand their own opinions and feelings towards their preferred entertainment.
joe_zazen
Member
Really? Is there a source for that?
Lionel Richie
Member
Neil is really not unreasonable here. I think the reason why ludonarrative dissonance never really took off as a concept is that most people honestly don't give a fuck about it or even notice it. But it really doesn't help that some examples stretches out the original idea like crazy. It works beautifully in the Bioshock example because it's easy to see that the gameplay and the narrative don't work hand in hand (although it really didn't bother me at all) but why is Uncharted even an example? Because Nate is a good guy and he kills bad guys? Like every action movie hero ever? It gets into some really subjective territory, like saying the morality of the situation isn't analyzed when the work isn't about moral reflection. It starts to miss the point.
I'm all for analyzing the game as different pieces and then thinking if they all came together and fucking worked by any means. Maybe you'll stay for the story. Maybe you'll stay for the gameplay. Maybe you will do something different with that time. But ludonarrative dissonance specifically isn't brought up a lot because it isn't really present in a lot of games IMO, certainly not in enough games that allow you to wrap it up so perfectly around philosophical extremes like it did in Bioshock.
It's not just about the violence, it's that Nate isn't even really the 'good guy' half the time, he's just as much an armed thief as everyone else who wants the treasure for himself and is prepared to kill for it, it's just implied that's he's the 'hero' because he's a handsome, affable white bloke with likeable friends that is the player character. The comparison to Star Wars and Indiana Jones works as a matinee fantasy adventure but doesn't really work in terms of character motivation for the level of violence deployed, when Luke and Indiana are outmatched and trying to hinder the overwhelming powerful evil forces of their respective universes, rather than just being a thief with a motivation of competing with them for personal gain. Indiana kills dozens because the Nazis shouldn't have phenomenal cosmic power. Nate kills hundreds because treasure should be on his mantelpiece rather than some other mercenary.
To be fair, the comparison is made because the Uncharted games are otherwise well-made fun romps with a likeable cast that wear their influence on their sleeve, and have enjoyed success because of it. Being compared to the biggest adventure films around isn't a bad thing even if you come up short in terms of character motivations when justifiying the level of violence in a 12-hour computer game built around the TPS model killing hundreds of enemies. If that's the genre of game the series chose (and it was a smart decision, clearly people like those games), they have to expect criticism when attaching an adventure tale about a bunch of otherwise likable thieves to it. Part of me wonders if they want to end Uncharted and move forward with less gunfights around convenient cover because the expectations of the genre has become a bit of a hindrance to the stories, rather than games, they want to make.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
I don't think anyone is arguing against Ludonarrative Dissonance as a criticism. However, it's definitely a form of critique that feels misused and overused.
The biggest examples of this critique are Uncharted and Bioshock. I just don't see how that term matches those games at all. A better example would be something like Red Dead. John Marston is a man trying to break away from his violent criminal past and start a peaceful life with his faimily. And yet, the player has the freedom to basically break this narrative by shooting random innocent people, robbing banks, and get into constant shootouts with the law. This would be believable if the game had multiple paths in the story, but no, the game sticks to a simple solid narrative about Redemption and nothing else.
The biggest examples of this critique are Uncharted and Bioshock. I just don't see how that term matches those games at all. A better example would be something like Red Dead. John Marston is a man trying to break away from his violent criminal past and start a peaceful life with his faimily. And yet, the player has the freedom to basically break this narrative by shooting random innocent people, robbing banks, and get into constant shootouts with the law. This would be believable if the game had multiple paths in the story, but no, the game sticks to a simple solid narrative about Redemption and nothing else.
A far clearer understanding of ludonarrative dissonance that helps to grasp it in real terms.
At first I belonged to the camp of "y'all trying too hard to make an argument". Years later I evolved my perspective. I vividly remember the ludonarrative discussion on the 1up podcast. Guy talked on and on about it and it wasn't for me.
If you play game and want to take time to develop a philosophical understanding of it based on ludonarrative dissonance then have fun. It's your right to do this and you shouldn't be attacked for it. Use it as an educational tool for young people looking for an entry into philosophy. Deep dive into the classics to find some ludonarrative dissonance.
The argument that a game has a theme counter to the one told is fun to discuss when you think about it. Off the top of my head Batman games where he's trying to save the city but allegedly committing acts of extreme violence while doing it harming villains.
I'm too scared to deep dive for this in Kojima games. Does the Phantom Pain have any LDND?
At first I belonged to the camp of "y'all trying too hard to make an argument". Years later I evolved my perspective. I vividly remember the ludonarrative discussion on the 1up podcast. Guy talked on and on about it and it wasn't for me.
If you play game and want to take time to develop a philosophical understanding of it based on ludonarrative dissonance then have fun. It's your right to do this and you shouldn't be attacked for it. Use it as an educational tool for young people looking for an entry into philosophy. Deep dive into the classics to find some ludonarrative dissonance.
The argument that a game has a theme counter to the one told is fun to discuss when you think about it. Off the top of my head Batman games where he's trying to save the city but allegedly committing acts of extreme violence while doing it harming villains.
I'm too scared to deep dive for this in Kojima games. Does the Phantom Pain have any LDND?
joe_zazen
Member
Never took off where? Here? Academia?
lol what a moron. He should consider that if he actually put some thought into why Star Wars and Indiana Jones don't draw these kinds of complaints instead of throwing out these facile dismissals he could learn something that might help him become a better storyteller. It couldn't hurt, at the very least.
joe_zazen
Member
I almost never see it here or in reviews.
That is true, of course. That is a valid excuse for why the problem is there. But it's just that: an excuse. The problem is still there.
And that is not to say Bioshock as a whole is now bad and complete garbage. It's not. It is still great, but it does have problems like this and therefore could be even greater.
The goal in discussing flaws like this is not to point fingers and laugh, but to find ways how to make a game better. To learn from mistakes and help make future games better in this regard.
The challenge then is, how to create a game under these restrictions that still manages to make theme, story and gameplay support each other. In Bioshocks case for example it might have been better to remove the save/harvest mechanic altogether because it offers an arbitary choice that the player does not have in any other aspect of the game and creates an expectation that the game cannot fulfill.
That's really embarrassing. Dude just sounds so out of touch here. Everything he says doesn't get this criticism has absolutely gotten that criticism.
Kevin Smith made a whole career out of calling out the Rebels for killing the poor Death Star contractors.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Yeah, I've always used Red Dead Redemption as one of the strongest textbook examples of legitimate ludonarrative dissonance. It's something Rockstar didn't find balance with, and probably intentionally; the narrative is one story, the free play in between story beats is just whatever. Ergo, dissonance. But I'm not sure people care as much in the context of huge open world agency driven games like Red Dead.
But yeah; in RDR you can go from mass slaughtering entire towns, to emotionally driven cutscenes about breaking away from a violent past and finding redemption.
For all the fun I have complaining about the narrative of the Metal Gear series, I don't feel they descend into any significant LDND. To their credit they're actually pretty consistent in the themes they convey both in cutscenes and play. Even if it's hammy.
SolidSnakex
Member
In terms of gaming it took off for a few years and then basically died. You rarely ever hear about it it now because the pushback against it was so strong due to how overused the term became. To some extent it was basically a meme at one point.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
It has a few odd moments involving Quiet. The player will likely grow attached to her as a helpful buddy and reliable comrade. Yet, the story dictates that she is untrustworthy at specific plot moments. At these times, you might feel a disconnect from the character you are playing and his actions (or inaction) in certain cutscenes.
However, despite those odd moments, the game does not have any LDND. It's a game about choosing your own path in building motherbase and tackling missions.
I think the main problem with Uncharted is how realistic the depiction of the Characters in the cutscenes is. And I don't just mean graphically. All the cutscenes basically depict a realistic world with human characters, not Cartoon characters. The history matches the real world (Sir Francis Drake, etc.). The dialogues are grounded and well written and not schlocky or over the top.
This is what makes the ensuing massacres so grating. It would be much less of a problem, if the cutscenes depicted the characters as much more over the top and cartoony and the writing was way more schlocky.
I agree that the explicit term ludonarrative dissonance might be misapplied in this case. Maybe another term should be invented for it. But I still think what I described above is a definitive problem of the Uncharted games.
It's weird because the gameplay of The Last of Us completely reinforces the narrative of The Last of Us; the combat mechanics, stealth, and crafting entirely support the Joel that is present in the dialogue and cutscenes. It just gets a little weirder when like a fifth of Uncharted 4 is slowly walking around (or driving, to be fair) having conversations with close friends and family about a failing marriage between wild swashbuckling murder sprees. I feel like in Star Wars and Indiana Jones the characters spend more time getting through or running away from bad guys than the bad guys being the point. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Also I just think long AAA games require so much repetition of content over their length that there's no way you're going to get a 10-hour action-adventure game with the body count of a two-hour movie. So either accept that people are going to point out when it gets a bit weird or adapt your game to endless wanton violence making sense. Hello, DOOM 2016.
Gotta kind of disagree on this too, but this is almost a failure of the writing all-around to me; the problem is just reinforced by the way I play. The game wants to present Snake as becoming a demon, turning into a monster, etc etc. However, all of his actions in the cutscenes are generally just him making decent choices and he's passive whenever anyone else does anything extremely shitty. Chase that with severely non-lethal gameplay where you capture dudes instead of kill them and it kind of feels like I'm playing more of a savior than a monster. This, of course, waffles with the way people choose to play the game. But then, so does Bioshock I guess.
This is a great area for academic/editorial criticism, but it's basically inherent in the way games have to be written atm.
Until we've got narrative engines smart enough to improvise cutscenes, scripts and even the management of set-pieces based on the player's style this will almost always be a criticism of games.
And then you're just left with ProcGen - The Game and once it's done once and works the only thing anyone will ever need to do is reskin the art.
Until we've got narrative engines smart enough to improvise cutscenes, scripts and even the management of set-pieces based on the player's style this will almost always be a criticism of games.
And then you're just left with ProcGen - The Game and once it's done once and works the only thing anyone will ever need to do is reskin the art.
TheRedSnifit
Member
I've always wanted to see Naughty Dog actually make one of their character-driven stories without bolting it onto a ten-hour shooter where the protagonist murders thousands of people. But they have not done it, they obviously do not wish to do it, and I honestly believe they are incapable of doing so.
No, the solution is to either write a story ("Fun adventure about a quirky bunch of well-meaning, treasure-hunting friends") and build the game around it, or make a game ("Killing hundreds or thousands of people") and write the story around it. But devs want to have their cake and eat it too, so we get dissonance.
The steady injection of "walking simulator" segments throughout the games from Uncharted 3 on actually makes me think they kind of want to get there too.
Actually, this too. You don't even use a gun as adult Nathan until after the auction, right? That's like...three hours in.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I still love that a villian actually pointed this out to drake in Uncharted 2. U4 seemed to tone it down a lot too, not even giving you a lethal option till several hours in.
I disagree. Two simple examples:
The new Doom perfectly matched the writing to the only possible violent gameplay.
The original Deus Ex matched the character dialogue and story depending on how you played the game (stealth, violence, etc.). Of course this was still very early and still needs massive improvement. But look how old this game is, and barely anyone has even tried to do anything of this scope.
It is definitely possible. It just takes more effort and/or foresight.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Except it's really not?
The story isn't about Snake becoming a demon. That's what the marketing lead you to believe, but the story happening in MGSV really isn't that at all.
There's nothing contradictory about those two posts.
"Star Wars has been criticized by somebody for x."
"Star Wars doesn't actively court criticism for x."
These are two different statements that can coexist without a problem.
Without really getting into extended spoiler talk here, I think the cutscenes, especially later ones, really want to turn Venom Snake into a bad, bad guy. This was possibly during times you as the player didn't control them, despite what you may have done when you did. Two quick examples:
Snake being anguished after putting his own soldiers down (which was a mercy and literally saved the world), and the Medic being set up as the fall guy to do bad shit with Outer Heaven and having a big ol' horn at the end (despite that not reflecting that I killed almost nobody that wasn't a zombie so why would he become a monster).
If you disagree with the characterization I'm suggesting, that's fine. Maybe I'm even fuzzy on some of that. I have major beef with that game that no amount of arguing on here has worked me through.
Yeah, that's just an evergreen truth.
And alot of people complained about how slow Uncharted 4 was and that there was no real action until later in the game. Right here on GAF aswell.
Problem is that there is no real way to please everyone.
Agreed. If you want me to care about your game's story, you can't have half of it juxtaposing the other. I'm surprised there aren't more devs copying Undertale's approach to combat. It really felt like a tip of the iceberg moment with how you could go about combat encounters. I guess among AAA games, it's an expensive endeavour with how untested it is, but "it costs too much" doesn't absolve the issue of the whiplash. The issue will never be solved if people act like it's impossible to remedy.
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of criticism of Night in the Woods for how "boring" the first half is, but thematically going through the same motions over and over again fits to an unsettling familiarity. I guess it comes back to "games have to be fun", which feels like it's holding back a lot of things because of conventions. But let's not go full Chinese Room please.
You can have outlandish action and have the plot serve it. DOOM (2016) continues to an exemplar of mixing OVER THE TOP murdering with a perfectly written character that embodies the player's desire to kill everything that moves.
Uncharted seems like it wants to have its cake and eat it, be taken seriously as a story while also having prolonged muderfests. I wish Naughty Dog would move on to something else if they're serious about pushing the narrative element of the medium. There's too much expected of the Uncharted brand. Last of Us was a good step, but that's highly dependent on how you felt about certain parts.
It's got issues, but everything you do (at least, how the game encourages you) is designed around building up a base, which is at the core of the story. Killing people is bad because you can't later use them to prop up your ranks (doing this in alert state is a mess, so stealth is preferable). There's even a level later on where you have to do some gruesome stuff because of the story and the game actively punishes your base's capabilities for for each action you take. It adds poignancy to the next cutscene. I never felt opposed to the story, just disappointed with where it went and the large periods where it lacked any progression.
The revenge part however... that was lacking, but it lacked in both story and gameplay, so it kind of got forgotten. Not a good thing, but it didn't take me out like other games because I wasn't juggling two opposing forces. There is a explanation for it if you delve into the meta I guess, but it's nowhere near as strong as 2 in that regard and has some serious whiplash of a different kind.
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of criticism of Night in the Woods for how "boring" the first half is, but thematically going through the same motions over and over again fits to an unsettling familiarity. I guess it comes back to "games have to be fun", which feels like it's holding back a lot of things because of conventions. But let's not go full Chinese Room please.
You can have outlandish action and have the plot serve it. DOOM (2016) continues to an exemplar of mixing OVER THE TOP murdering with a perfectly written character that embodies the player's desire to kill everything that moves.
Uncharted seems like it wants to have its cake and eat it, be taken seriously as a story while also having prolonged muderfests. I wish Naughty Dog would move on to something else if they're serious about pushing the narrative element of the medium. There's too much expected of the Uncharted brand. Last of Us was a good step, but that's highly dependent on how you felt about certain parts.
It's got issues, but everything you do (at least, how the game encourages you) is designed around building up a base, which is at the core of the story. Killing people is bad because you can't later use them to prop up your ranks (doing this in alert state is a mess, so stealth is preferable). There's even a level later on where you have to do some gruesome stuff because of the story and the game actively punishes your base's capabilities for for each action you take. It adds poignancy to the next cutscene. I never felt opposed to the story, just disappointed with where it went and the large periods where it lacked any progression.
The revenge part however... that was lacking, but it lacked in both story and gameplay, so it kind of got forgotten. Not a good thing, but it didn't take me out like other games because I wasn't juggling two opposing forces. There is a explanation for it if you delve into the meta I guess, but it's nowhere near as strong as 2 in that regard and has some serious whiplash of a different kind.
joe_zazen
Member
Games are only funded if the publisher believes it will sell. Right now, that means shooting and sports. I bet ND would love to take a crack at a non shooter with a big budget, but are there ten million potential purchasers for that?
It definitely applies to Uncharted. Killing ten nazis is comparable to killing 700 pirates from impoverished areas of the world? LMAO. And there is often a very thin line between Drake and the people you shoot in the game that begins and ends at "but they shot first".
There is without a doubt a disconnect between the narrative portrayal of Drake as a likeable, good hearted thief with bad luck and his actions as someone who puts himself in impossibly daunting scenarios to kill hundreds of other pirates for the sole reason of wanting treasure.
And even though the story is consciously not about him dealing with PTSD or something due to all the enemies he killed, despite that being more reasonable from a narrative standpoint, that's not enough to prevent valid criticism and mockery of the disconnect between the gameplay premise and story it's trying to impress the player with.
I say this as an Uncharted fan. I can turn my brain off and enjoy the nostalgic Goonies/Indiana Jones feels as well as anyone, but I really do think that there was potential for a better adventure game in there than the one primarily about shooting dudes that we got.
Red Dead Redemption is an even better example, and can't leave out Batman: Arkham Knight, a game in which, as fun as piloting a bat tank is, Batman shoots a "vehicle destabilizer" device that makes a car explode and then launch 30 feet in the air to land in a pile of burning metal rubble, or plows into dudes enough to send them flying and a magical electrical forcefield prevents them from being killed, etc. It's silly af.
But TBH I don't think LD is ever a bad thing necessarily unless the game's narrative is a primary focus and seems to have impressing the player as a goal. I actually prefer having the ability to go completely rogue in Red Dead or Deus Ex:MD precisely BECAUSE it goes against the character's moral code.
But it's a common flaw with games that try to emulate serious movies, which makes me appreciate stuff like The Last Guardian, The Last of Us, Shadow of the Colossus, etc even more for having compelling stories AND gameplay that never really undermines them.
There is without a doubt a disconnect between the narrative portrayal of Drake as a likeable, good hearted thief with bad luck and his actions as someone who puts himself in impossibly daunting scenarios to kill hundreds of other pirates for the sole reason of wanting treasure.
And even though the story is consciously not about him dealing with PTSD or something due to all the enemies he killed, despite that being more reasonable from a narrative standpoint, that's not enough to prevent valid criticism and mockery of the disconnect between the gameplay premise and story it's trying to impress the player with.
I say this as an Uncharted fan. I can turn my brain off and enjoy the nostalgic Goonies/Indiana Jones feels as well as anyone, but I really do think that there was potential for a better adventure game in there than the one primarily about shooting dudes that we got.
Red Dead Redemption is an even better example, and can't leave out Batman: Arkham Knight, a game in which, as fun as piloting a bat tank is, Batman shoots a "vehicle destabilizer" device that makes a car explode and then launch 30 feet in the air to land in a pile of burning metal rubble, or plows into dudes enough to send them flying and a magical electrical forcefield prevents them from being killed, etc. It's silly af.
But TBH I don't think LD is ever a bad thing necessarily unless the game's narrative is a primary focus and seems to have impressing the player as a goal. I actually prefer having the ability to go completely rogue in Red Dead or Deus Ex:MD precisely BECAUSE it goes against the character's moral code.
But it's a common flaw with games that try to emulate serious movies, which makes me appreciate stuff like The Last Guardian, The Last of Us, Shadow of the Colossus, etc even more for having compelling stories AND gameplay that never really undermines them.
Jeez... no wonder the medium's level of critique remains so superficial when this is one of its most lauded creators
Gradly
Member
Its all subjective! I only talked about Ludonarrative Dissonance with friends and coworkers if I wanted to look cool, just like using buzzwords and speaking in jargon haha
And thanks God that, personally, I don't pay attention that much to notice if gameplay and narrative are going along nicely or not because for me games are just a way to escape reality and do whatever things that I can't do in real life. That's why real life laws don't apply to games IMO. The actual dissonance happens between me and the game not the gameplay and narrative/cutscenes
I remember in Uncharted 4 most people wanted more fights/encounters (where Ludonarrative Dissonance is in its peak) and criticized slow walking segments (where its almost nonexistent). So apparently its an issue we just wanna talk about not an issue that needs a real solution considering that games are made to sell more and to entice more players.
I'm actually interested to know if this really has any impact whatsoever. Do companies sell less games if their games or maybe sequels seemed to have this issue? Do gamers avoid buying such games that are known/expected to have it? If the answer is No to both then I don't see it as an issue, and even if it's an issue I don't think they would bother fixing that
And thanks God that, personally, I don't pay attention that much to notice if gameplay and narrative are going along nicely or not because for me games are just a way to escape reality and do whatever things that I can't do in real life. That's why real life laws don't apply to games IMO. The actual dissonance happens between me and the game not the gameplay and narrative/cutscenes
I remember in Uncharted 4 most people wanted more fights/encounters (where Ludonarrative Dissonance is in its peak) and criticized slow walking segments (where its almost nonexistent). So apparently its an issue we just wanna talk about not an issue that needs a real solution considering that games are made to sell more and to entice more players.
I'm actually interested to know if this really has any impact whatsoever. Do companies sell less games if their games or maybe sequels seemed to have this issue? Do gamers avoid buying such games that are known/expected to have it? If the answer is No to both then I don't see it as an issue, and even if it's an issue I don't think they would bother fixing that
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Except the game really isn't implying at all that Snake is a monster in those two scenes.
Snake feels like a demon for killing his own men at the quarantine plant. The game isn't actually implying that he is a monster for shooting everyone. Snake feels guilty and ashamed in not being able to protect his soldiers, but everyone knows that he did the right thing. The demon symbolism is how the character sees himself at that moment.
And there is a lot of interpretation about the ending, these are just me feelings. Again, I don't see the game implying that Snake is a bad guy in the end. The character himself feels guilty in his choice to follow Big Boss. He sees himself in the mirror as a demon, but the game is not implying that you were a monster for your actions.
And there is a lot of interpretation about the ending, these are just me feelings. Again, I don't see the game implying that Snake is a bad guy in the end. The character himself feels guilty in his choice to follow Big Boss. He sees himself in the mirror as a demon, but the game is not implying that you were a monster for your actions.
The story really isn't about men becoming demons. It's more related to the loss of identity and the endless cycle of revenge.
Uno Venova
Banned
I was so glad playing Uncharted and realizing that they never bought into this and changed up their games because of this term. That trophy was hilarious.
Thematic dissonance is just the top of the iceberg. I guess people aren't really paying attention because discussions on the topic rarely seem progress beyond shallow details of that kind when the core issue is that the interactivity of games - in terms of coherency - is fundamentally incompatible with the static nature of authored narratives. Gameplay inherently generate narratives while authored narratives are immutable, that gap can't be bridged. All of this points to narrative and story as a focus for games is a dead end, a gimmick. A successful gimmick that will continue to be around for as long as games, but impotent in terms of progressing the medium meaningfully.
joe_zazen
Member
Its all subjective! I only talked about Ludonarrative Dissonance with friends and coworkers if I wanted to look cool, just like using buzzwords and speaking in jargon haha
And thanks God that, personally, I don't pay attention that much to notice if gameplay and narrative are going along nicely or not because for me games are just a way to escape reality and do whatever things that I can't do in real life. That's why real life laws don't apply to games IMO. The actual dissonance happens between me and the game not the gameplay and narrative/cutscenes
I remember in Uncharted 4 most people wanted more fights/encounters (where Ludonarrative Dissonance is in its peak) and criticized slow walking segments (where its almost nonexistent). So apparently its an issue we just wanna talk about not an issue that needs a real solution considering that games are made to sell more and to entice more players.
I'm actually interested to know if this really has any impact whatsoever. Do companies sell less games if their games or maybe sequels seemed to have this issue? Do gamers avoid buying such games that are known/expected to have it? If the answer is No to both then I don't see it as an issue, and even if it's an issue I don't think they would bother fixing that
I imagine it depends on the type of player and game. Undertale And Stardew Valey are much different than GTA and Uncharted.