Excellent video.
Ludonarrative dissonance is a perfectly valid criticism, and it pains me when I see people in these threads handwave it away as being irrelevant because "it's a game."
interesting vid. wasn't there an uncharted 4 trophy named after this term
interesting vid. wasn't there an uncharted 4 trophy named after this term
Folding Ideas said:When I teased this video the initial reaction was a near-unanimous slow-motion "oh no," like a comedy action hero leaping on a grenade that's revealed to be a dud or a prop or it was actually just a bagel. I'm not saying this looks like a grenade, but is really just a bagel, but I am saying that I find the tepid anti-intellectualism that has become calcified in video game circles to be exhausting. It's reached a point where so many intelligent, engaged people are on the brink of giving up entirely because any attempt to improve the language we use to talk about games as they exist and operate is met with suspicion and mockery, painted as little more than bloviating wankery, and trotted around like Quasimodo as a target for rotten turnips. Ludonarrative dissonance has earned a reputation not through any irreparable flaws in the concept, but because pundits catering to an anti-intellectual base coined stupid names like "ludonarrative disco biscuits" because pretending big words are hard is a sure way to get a laugh from the worst kinds of people.
The Transformers example in the video is a really good example of how you can apply the concept to film, and I think there are probably plenty of others if you really sit down and think about it. LD is just another tool in the critic's toolbox, and I don't think it's wise that we attempt to wall things off and restrict what qualifies as legitimate criticism in this way.
Yep, Neil actually described it as his proudest moment because he despises the term so much.
Really? Is there a source for that?
Uncharted 4 has a trophy called "Ludonarrative Dissonance" for killing 1,000 people. That's a reference to the criticism that Nathan Drake doesn't respond emotionally to all the killing he does.
I told all the people on the team, "This is my proudest moment, the fact that I came up with this trophy on this project." We were conscious to have fewer fights, but it came more from a desire to have a different kind of pacing than to answer the "ludonarrative dissonance" argument.
Because we don't buy into it. I've been trying to dissect it. Why is it that Uncharted triggers this argument, when Indiana Jones doesn't? Is it the number? It can't be just the number, because Indiana Jones kills more people than a normal person does. A normal person kills zero people. And Indiana Jones kills a dozen, at least, over the course of several movies. What about Star Wars? Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, are they some sort of serial killers? They laugh off having killed some stormtroopers. And in The Force Awakens, we see that a stormtrooper can actually repent for the person he is and come around, and there are actually real people under those helmets.
It's a stylized reality where the conflicts are lighter, where death doesn't have the same weight.
We're not trying to make a statement about Third World mercenaries, or the toll of having killed hundreds of people in your life.
It's not just about the violence, it's that Nate isn't even really the 'good guy' half the time, he's just as much an armed thief as everyone else who wants the treasure for himself and is prepared to kill for it, it's just implied that's he's the 'hero' because he's a handsome, affable white bloke with likeable friends that is the player character. The comparison to Star Wars and Indiana Jones works as a matinee fantasy adventure but doesn't really work in terms of character motivation for the level of violence deployed, when Luke and Indiana are outmatched and trying to hinder the overwhelming powerful evil forces of their respective universes, rather than just being a thief with a motivation of competing with them for personal gain. Indiana kills dozens because the Nazis shouldn't have phenomenal cosmic power. Nate kills hundreds because treasure should be on his mantelpiece rather than some other mercenary.Neil is really not unreasonable here. I think the reason why ludonarrative dissonance never really took off as a concept is that most people honestly don't give a fuck about it or even notice it. But it really doesn't help that some examples stretches out the original idea like crazy. It works beautifully in the Bioshock example because it's easy to see that the gameplay and the narrative don't work hand in hand (although it really didn't bother me at all) but why is Uncharted even an example? Because Nate is a good guy and he kills bad guys? Like every action movie hero ever? It gets into some really subjective territory, like saying the morality of the situation isn't analyzed when the work isn't about moral reflection. It starts to miss the point.
I'm all for analyzing the game as different pieces and then thinking if they all came together and fucking worked by any means. Maybe you'll stay for the story. Maybe you'll stay for the gameplay. Maybe you will do something different with that time. But ludonarrative dissonance specifically isn't brought up a lot because it isn't really present in a lot of games IMO, certainly not in enough games that allow you to wrap it up so perfectly around philosophical extremes like it did in Bioshock.
Neil is really not unreasonable here. I think the reason why ludonarrative dissonance never really took off as a concept is that most people honestly don't give a fuck about it or even notice it. But it really doesn't help that some examples stretches out the original idea like crazy. It works beautifully in the Bioshock example because it's easy to see that the gameplay and the narrative don't work hand in hand (although it really didn't bother me at all) but why is Uncharted even an example? Because Nate is a good guy and he kills bad guys? Like every action movie hero ever? It gets into some really subjective territory, like saying the morality of the situation isn't analyzed when the work isn't about moral reflection. It starts to miss the point.
I'm all for analyzing the game as different pieces and then thinking if they all came together and fucking worked by any means. Maybe you'll stay for the story. Maybe you'll stay for the gameplay. Maybe you will do something different with that time. But ludonarrative dissonance specifically isn't brought up a lot because it isn't really present in a lot of games IMO, certainly not in enough games that allow you to wrap it up so perfectly around philosophical extremes like it did in Bioshock.
lol what a moron. He should consider that if he actually put some thought into why Star Wars and Indiana Jones don't draw these kinds of complaints instead of throwing out these facile dismissals he could learn something that might help him become a better storyteller. It couldn't hurt, at the very least.
I don't think anyone is arguing against Ludonarrative Dissonance as a criticism. However, it's definitely a form of critique that feels misused and overused.
The biggest examples of this critique are Uncharted and Bioshock. I just don't see how that term matches those games at all. A better example would be something like Red Dead. John Marston is a man trying to break away from his violent criminal past and start a peaceful life with his faimily. And yet, the player has the freedom to basically break this narrative by shooting random innocent people, robbing banks, and get into constant shootouts with the law. This would be believable if the game had multiple paths in the story, but no, the game sticks to a simple solid narrative about Redemption and nothing else.
If you look at the Bioshock example, the devs would basically have to have two branching paths to allow you to side with Atlas or with Ryan, with two different endings. Time and money probably don't allow that in most cases.
A better example would be something like Red Dead. John Marston is a man trying to break away from his violent criminal past and start a peaceful life with his faimily. And yet, the player has the freedom to basically break this narrative by shooting random innocent people, robbing banks, and get into constant shootouts with the law. This would be believable if the game had multiple paths in the story, but no, the game sticks to a simple solid narrative about Redemption and nothing else.
Never took off where? Here? Academia?
lol what a moron. He should consider that if he actually put some thought into why Star Wars and Indiana Jones don't draw these kinds of complaints instead of throwing out these facile dismissals he could learn something that might help him become a better storyteller. It couldn't hurt, at the very least.
That's really embarrassing. Dude just sounds so out of touch here. Everything he says doesn't get this criticism has absolutely gotten that criticism.
Kevin Smith made a whole career out of calling out the Rebels for killing the poor Death Star contractors.
A far clearer understanding of ludonarrative dissonance that helps to grasp it in real terms.
At first I belonged to the camp of "y'all trying too hard to make an argument". Years later I evolved my perspective. I vividly remember the ludonarrative discussion on the 1up podcast. Guy talked on and on about it and it wasn't for me.
If you play game and want to take time to develop a philosophical understanding of it based on ludonarrative dissonance then have fun. It's your right to do this and you shouldn't be attacked for it. Use it as an educational tool for young people looking for an entry into philosophy. Deep dive into the classics to find some ludonarrative dissonance.
The argument that a game has a theme counter to the one told is fun to discuss when you think about it. Off the top of my head Batman games where he's trying to save the city but allegedly committing acts of extreme violence while doing it harming villains.
I'm too scared to deep dive for this in Kojima games. Does the Phantom Pain have any LDND?
Neil is really not unreasonable here. I think the reason why ludonarrative dissonance never really took off as a concept is that most people honestly don't give a fuck about it or even notice it. But it really doesn't help that some examples stretches out the original idea like crazy. It works beautifully in the Bioshock example because it's easy to see that the gameplay and the narrative don't work hand in hand (although it really didn't bother me at all) but why is Uncharted even an example? Because Nate is a good guy and he kills bad guys? Like every action movie hero ever? It gets into some really subjective territory, like saying the morality of the situation isn't analyzed when the work isn't about moral reflection. It starts to miss the point.
I'm all for analyzing the game as different pieces and then thinking if they all came together and fucking worked by any means. Maybe you'll stay for the story. Maybe you'll stay for the gameplay. Maybe you will do something different with that time. But ludonarrative dissonance specifically isn't brought up a lot because it isn't really present in a lot of games IMO, certainly not in enough games that allow you to wrap it up so perfectly around philosophical extremes like it did in Bioshock.
It has a few odd moments involving Quiet. The player will likely grow attached to her as a helpful buddy and reliable comrade. Yet, the story dictates that she is untrustworthy at specific plot moments. At these times, you might feel a disconnect from the character you are playing and his actions (or inaction) in certain cutscenes.
However, despite those odd moments, the game does not have any LDND. It's a game about choosing your own path in building motherbase and tackling missions.
Also I just think long AAA games require so much repetition of content over their length that there's no way you're going to get a 10-hour action-adventure game with the body count of a two-hour movie. So either accept that people are going to point out when it gets a bit weird or adapt your game to endless wanton violence making sense. Hello, DOOM 2016.
This is a great area for academic/editorial criticism, but it's basically inherent in the way games have to be written atm.
Until we've got narrative engines smart enough to improvise cutscenes, scripts and even the management of set-pieces based on the player's style this will almost always be a criticism of games.
And then you're just left with ProcGen - The Game and once it's done once and works the only thing anyone will ever need to do is reskin the art.
I've always wanted to see Naughty Dog actually make one of their character-driven stories without bolting it onto a ten-hour shooter where the protagonist murders thousands of people. But they have not done it, they obviously do not wish to do it, and I honestly believe they are incapable of doing so.
I still love that a villian actually pointed this out to drake in Uncharted 2. U4 seemed to tone it down a lot too, not even giving you a lethal option till several hours in.
I think the main problem with Uncharted is how realistic the depiction of the Characters in the cutscenes is. And I don't just mean graphically. All the cutscenes basically depict a realistic world with human characters, not Cartoon characters. The history matches the real world (Sir Francis Drake, etc.). The dialogues are grounded and well written and not schlocky or over the top.
This is what makes the ensuing massacres so grating. It would be much less of a problem, if the cutscenes depicted the characters as much more over the top and cartoony and the writing was way more schlocky.
I agree that the explicit term ludonarrative dissonance might be misapplied in this case. Maybe another term should be invented for it. But I still think what I described above is a definitive problem of the Uncharted games.
This is a great area for academic/editorial criticism, but it's basically inherent in the way games have to be written atm.
Until we've got narrative engines smart enough to improvise cutscenes, scripts and even the management of set-pieces based on the player's style this will almost always be a criticism of games.
And then you're just left with ProcGen - The Game and once it's done once and works the only thing anyone will ever need to do is reskin the art.
Gotta kind of disagree on this too, but this is almost a failure of the writing all-around to me; the problem is just reinforced by the way I play. The game wants to present Snake as becoming a demon, turning into a monster, etc etc. However, all of his actions in the cutscenes are generally just him making decent choices and he's passive whenever anyone else does anything extremely shitty. Chase that with severely non-lethal gameplay where you capture dudes instead of kill them and it kind of feels like I'm playing more of a savior than a monster. This, of course, waffles with the way people choose to play the game. But then, so does Bioshock I guess.
There's nothing contradictory about those two posts.Some dissonance happening here...
Except it's really not?
The story isn't about Snake becoming a demon. That's what the marketing lead you to believe, but the story happening in MGSV really isn't that at all.
And alot of people complained about how slow Uncharted 4 was and that there was no real action until later in the game. Right here on GAF aswell.
Problem is that there is no real way to please everyone.
The steady injection of "walking simulator" segments throughout the games from Uncharted 3 on actually makes me think they kind of want to get there too.
Actually, this too. You don't even use a gun as adult Nathan until after the auction, right? That's like...three hours in.
I'm too scared to deep dive for this in Kojima games. Does the Phantom Pain have any LDND?
I've always wanted to see Naughty Dog actually make one of their character-driven stories without bolting it onto a ten-hour shooter where the protagonist murders thousands of people. But they have not done it, they obviously do not wish to do it, and I honestly believe they are incapable of doing so.
.
Jeez... no wonder the medium's level of critique remains so superficial when this is one of its most lauded creators
Without really getting into extended spoiler talk here, I think the cutscenes, especially later ones, really want to turn Venom Snake into a bad, bad guy. This was possibly during times you as the player didn't control them, despite what you may have done when you did. Two quick examples:Snake being anguished after putting his own soldiers down (which was a mercy and literally saved the world), and the Medic being set up as the fall guy to do bad shit with Outer Heaven and having a big ol' horn at the end (despite that not reflecting that I killed almost nobody that wasn't a zombie so why would he become a monster).
If you disagree with the characterization I'm suggesting, that's fine. Maybe I'm even fuzzy on some of that. I have major beef with that game that no amount of arguing on here has worked me through.
Its all subjective! I only talked about Ludonarrative Dissonance with friends and coworkers if I wanted to look cool, just like using buzzwords and speaking in jargon haha
And thanks God that, personally, I don't pay attention that much to notice if gameplay and narrative are going along nicely or not because for me games are just a way to escape reality and do whatever things that I can't do in real life. That's why real life laws don't apply to games IMO. The actual dissonance happens between me and the game not the gameplay and narrative/cutscenes
I remember in Uncharted 4 most people wanted more fights/encounters (where Ludonarrative Dissonance is in its peak) and criticized slow walking segments (where its almost nonexistent). So apparently its an issue we just wanna talk about not an issue that needs a real solution considering that games are made to sell more and to entice more players.
I'm actually interested to know if this really has any impact whatsoever. Do companies sell less games if their games or maybe sequels seemed to have this issue? Do gamers avoid buying such games that are known/expected to have it? If the answer is No to both then I don't see it as an issue, and even if it's an issue I don't think they would bother fixing that