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WaPo: Muppet creator’s family speaks out about the firing of Kermit's puppeteer

L

Lombax

Banned
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life is pain.
 
N

NealMcCauley

Member
THR interviewed Brian yesterday.

"I have to say, in hindsight, I feel pretty guilty that I burdened Disney by not having recast Kermit at that point because I knew that it was going to be a real problem," Henson told THR. "And I have always offered that if they wanted to recast Kermit, I was all for it, and I would absolutely help. I am very glad we have done this now. I think the character is better served to remove this destructive energy around it."
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Despite being a fantastic technical puppeteer and impersonator, Henson said Whitmire made "outrageous demands and often played brinkmanship," which he was warned as far back as the mid-1990s needed to stop. Henson declined to go into specifics about Whitmire's exact demands, but did say, "Steve would use 'I am now Kermit and if you want the Muppets, you better make me happy because the Muppets are Kermit.' And that is really not OK."
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It sounds like the Hensons put up with him for years because he was quasi-family, but it got to the point Disney said "He's gone" and the Hensons replied "Fine." I doubt anyone expected him to play the victim card so hard.
 
DOWN

DOWN

Banned
geomon said:
And what's wrong with that? Is he supposed to just take whatever they give him?
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Eh, there can be bad ways to do that. If the puppet team has been loyal and close with you for decades, then it can be a bit much to pressure them that you’re walking away. Especially if you are rude and loud saying “This is ridiculous! I’m so done with this.” And then you go outside the door and listen hoping for more money.
 
T

ThreePiMatt

Member
I dunno. The whole thing is just going to be office politics and a lot of "he said, she said" nonsense. I don't think there will ever be a way of finding who's to blame in this situation. Just a lot of messiness and airing of dirty laundry.
 
S

shawnbuddy

Member
The Muppets have definitely gotten a bit darker, more self-aware and inside-baseball since Henson died. The last two theatrical movies (moreso the first) moved that back to warmth and optimism, but then they went and shit on that with that reality-tinged sitcom instead of creating another Muppet show with songs and fun.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
"Steve performed Kermit as a bitter, angry, depressed, victim".
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Uhhh, okay. I mean the writing would be more to blame on that?

"Lets get back to the true spirit of Jim Henson's Kermit!"

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Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
Beer Monkey said:
So basically they don't like the direction ABC took a couple of years ago and are blaming the puppeteer.
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reading more into it, I dont think so:

This is from Brian Henson

"I have to say, in hindsight, I feel pretty guilty that I burdened Disney by not having recast Kermit at that point because I knew that it was going to be a real problem," Henson told THR. "And I have always offered that if they wanted to recast Kermit, I was all for it, and I would absolutely help. I am very glad we have done this now. I think the character is better served to remove this destructive energy around it."

"Despite being a fantastic technical puppeteer and impersonator, Henson said Whitmire made "outrageous demands and often played brinkmanship," which he was warned as far back as the mid-1990s needed to stop. Henson declined to go into specifics about Whitmire's exact demands, but did say, "Steve would use 'I am now Kermit and if you want the Muppets, you better make me happy because the Muppets are Kermit.' And that is really not OK."
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...s-replaced-character-could-use-change-1022041
 
S

shawnbuddy

Member
Hollywood Duo said:
It's not like he wrote Kermit's lines or the stories for him.
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The process of creating a Muppet performance includes quite a bit of ad-libbing. They aren't completely winging it while the cameras are rolling, but ad libs are encouraged during rehearsals and often kept. It helps each performer bring additional personality to their character.
 
Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
Choppasmith said:
It's still funny to me that the new Kermit, Matt Vogel, is LITERALLY Dark Kermit (Constantine)
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God that movie sucked. It was literally the first movie I've ever walked out of. And I have seen every single Muppet movie. Such a sad day that was.
 
X

Xe4

Banned
I don't see why they have to make it so dramatic. Just say contract negotiations didn't go through. This is just making the whole thing dramatic.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Xe4 said:
I don't see why they have to make it so dramatic. Just say contract negotiations didn't go through. This is just making the whole thing dramatic.
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Seems pretty fitting for Kermit and the Muppets.
 
NOLA_Gaffer

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
"The Muppets" that ran on ABC in 2015 was great and part of that has to do with the characterizations that they gave to characters that previously had none.

I liked Kermit's portrayal of a overworked, stressed showrunner that had to wrangle all the crazies working for him into producing a show every night.

If that's the portrayal that Mrs. Henson is complaining about, I heartily disagree with her sentiment.
 
R

ReiGun

Member
performed Kermit as a bitter, angry, depressed victim," she said.
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In what universe is this true? Whitmire has been the voice of Kermit for pretty much my entire life and I never read the character this way in any Muppets media post-Henson's passing.
 
M

Marmaladefire

Member
The only time his Kermit really came off as bitter and depressed was during that last flop of a show (which I liked..) and..Some points of Muppets in Space. Basically, if they're leaning into "realistic relationship conflict" with piggy, he can get a little Ross Geller. However I understand why Disney didn't want to put up with the actor any longer, and I understand why the kids are so attached to the characters legacy. It does seem about time for a new Muppets project, so I'm not shocked that they're recasting right now.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Xe4 said:
I don't see why they have to make it so dramatic. Just say contract negotiations didn't go through. This is just making the whole thing dramatic.
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Because the man who got fired is going around claiming Jim Henson hand picked him and a bunch of bullshit?
 
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akira28

Member
PJV3 said:
Cheryl seems to be confusing the man with his frog.
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Cheryl.....Cheryl darlin......Kermit isn't...he isn't real. I'm sorry kiddo.

You've been writing the frog character as a neurotic adult male living in our society, with a ruined relationship and a media contract with a corporate entertainment productions conglomerate....that's what you did. That's what you paid that guy to act out as the frog character, Kermit... do you understand? That those things aren't fun, or funny? Even in daddy's Kermit voice? /henson
 
V

Vyer

Member
Reading the various articles about this since it was announced, I really have a hard time seeing a clear person at fault. At least with the info that's out so far.


There seems to be a real history here, and multiple issues/conflicts, that I find it hard to jump to one 'side' of this with any real confidence. I'm a little surprised there seem to be so many that have.
 
A

akira28

Member
Netherscourge said:
I can't get into the newer Muppets.

I don't think it's because Kermit was angry or depressed or whatever she's claiming.

I just think guys like Jim Henson and Frank Oz are irreplaceable.

Jim Henson and Frank Oz and the other puppeteers were the stars. It was THEIR personalities coming through the Muppets, not the other way around.

Once they all left, it just wasn't the same.

Not for me anyway. I even had trouble with Jim's son taking over. It still didn't feel right. It didn't feel like the same Kermit.

But, that's just me. I can't get into the newer Sesame Street either. There is just a disconnect between the newer cast and the original people that I can not bridge. It just looks and feels different.
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I would say around the time they started with the minishows like elmo's world and the fairy show, there was a break. Some say it all started with Elmo, but I would say looking at the show today being a premium pay-cable tv show instead of a public television show, when they started going hard with the computer graphics over puppet work. started doing the show within a show completely focusing on their newer money makers with completely unrelated fluff characters, and shoving all their other 100+ characters and actors into the the last or the first 20 minutes...they stopped trying to be Sesame Street, and started to be Sesame, Inc.

I mean what the fuck did they think Jim was trying to do? Not be on HBO, for one...
 
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Not

Banned
Whitmire's Kermit was fantastic. This is all spin. Or at least, the Henson family really sees their father through some rose-tinted glasses. I mean, it makes sense.
 
P

PSqueak

Banned
"bitter, angry, depressed victim"

Does sound what anybody who is constantly physically abused by their [then] partner would be like.
 
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VistraNorrez

Member
I'm surprised how many are just taking Whitmire's word for it and completely dismissing the Hensons.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Whitmire was probably hard to work with, but he also wasn't given great material. So there was a clash. The Hensons pulled one way and the Whitmire pulled the other way, and their relationship only got worse.

I enjoyed both recent Muppet movies and liked what I saw from the show but didn't watch much of it.
 
C

Camjo-Z

Member
Steve's response to Cheryl's post:

I love Jim as a friend and mentor, while Cheryl loves him as a father. Don't judge her emotional posts too harshly. I hope all of you and Cheryl, too, can understand that being outspoken about these very character issues to the top creative executives on the ABC series is at the core of the number one issue stated to me for my termination by The Muppets Studios.
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Kor of Memory said:
I'm not agreeing with the woman, but I can see how someone could form that opinion. However, I would argue that this had little to do with the person, and way more to do with the scripts.

When the Muppets came out back in 2011, Kermit's character was very somber. He was sad that he was no longer in the good old days. He also didn't feel like much of a main character. He was plot-centric, but he literally wasn't the lead.

Then you had Muppets Most Wanted which while obviously was just a humorous take on a story of Kermit going to a sad Russian Prison. Kermit had the B plot of the movie, while the entire rest of the cast (including an evil Kermit) had the spotlight.

Finally, you had The Muppets. The Office parady with the documentary style comedy. The show had a running arc that involved Kermit longing for Piggy, but dating another pig. He basically had the same emotions as Jim from the first two season of the office (or Tim if you spell color: colour), which definitely was not his energetic leader of the Muppets that we grew up with in the past.

But like I said, this has way more to do with the scripts and writing that it would the voice.
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This. How the hell was Kermit supposed to be the "funny and fun" character he previously was when he was continually given material that involved him being sad/lonely/depressed?
 
A

Azure Dream

Member
I get that they didn't want to deal with his negotiations any more, but blaming the Kermit puppeteer for playing the scripts given to him is a poor excuse. "You should play the character more fun! Anyway, in this scene you play as an Office character depressed over their long-ended relationship."

Maybe the parts were written a little more downbeat because thay's what he was best at, but ultimately they handed him the scripts.
 
S

Sonicbug

Member
akira28 said:
I mean what the fuck did they think Jim was trying to do? Not be on HBO, for one...
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... Jim Henson just licensed his puppets out to the CTW/Sesame Workshop. He contributed to some early stuff, Kermit stuff, and that's it.

And he loved HBO. That's where Fraggle Rock aired.

(Also, Cheryl isn't directly involved with any of the companies that had to work with Whitmire every day (as far as I know) so going to her for comment is super weird. Also, yeah, writers are a thing.)
 
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Tookay

Member
This whole situation is so bizarre.

And only highlights how mismanaged the Muppets have been over the past decade, barring the 2011 movie.
 
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akira28

Member
Sonicbug said:
... Jim Henson just licensed his puppets out to the CTW/Sesame Workshop. He contributed to some early stuff, Kermit stuff, and that's it.

And he loved HBO. That's where Fraggle Rock aired.
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I don't think Jim Henson would have intended for his puppets to be used for premium pay edutainment television. Maybe an offshoot like FR, which aired a lot of places all over cable. He had a vision about how his puppets could be used as a normalizer in children's education, and yes I know he ultimately licensed his ip to CTW, he would have preferred it remain in the public domain. Paid for? sure, but available to all kids of all income levels.
 
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